we're joined by senator amy klobuchur of minnesota and jeanne shaheen of new hampshire. let me start with senator klobuchur. is it true that it's come down to a bill that will not have either a public option or this ability to buy into medicare at the age of 55? >> well, chris, we're still getting the numbers from the cbo. but remember, what's been added to the bill now is not just the exchange which allows people to pool their numbers and go in and buy insurance, cheaper, because they've got greater numbers. but it has something modeled on the federal employee health care plan, which is something the president and all of us have been asking for for years. with nonprofit insurance companies and really trying to bring that competition down. getting more companies in there, getting more nonprofits in, so we bring up competition and bring those rates down. >> well, the way i read that -- well, let me go to senator shaheen, because i read that, yes, it looks like joe lieberman has gotten his way and we're not going to have either the public option or this ability to buy-in to medicare at the age of 55. senator shaheen, is that the way it looks right now as we go towards what looks like the last call for this bill? >> well, look, i support a public option. i think that would have been important to have in the bill. but i've always said all along that there are a lot of ways to accomplish what we want to accomplish with a public option. we need to get more competition into the insurance market. that's what the exchanges will do. we're requiring insurance companies to spend most of their funds now providing health care for people rather than on administrative costs. i think that's important to do. we're saying that they've got to cover people who have pre-existing conditions, and we're saying that all insurance companies have to abide by those same rules when it comes to covering people. so we may not have a public option in this plan, but but what we're going to do is cover 31 million -- 33 million more americans. and i think that's real progress. >> and chris, the other aexpect of this, of course, is the cost reforms that you see in the bill. the fact that the deficit will be brought down over $100 billion. that medicare will stay strong for another nine years. it was going to go in the red by 2017. that we're going to fill the doughnut hole for our seniors. people are going to be able to keep their kids on their insurance until they're 26. these are things that people have been working decades to accomplish. one of the things the president emphasized at this meeting was that not everyone is going to be pleased with every single provision. some people are going to be disappointed that some things aren't in there. but look at what we've gotten. 31 million more people covered. over $100 billion in deficit reduction. the cost reforms that senator shaheen was talking about, the insurance regulation finally putting down some rules. this is a major change. and it's reform for so many people in my state calling saying, you know, my daughter's just basically been kicked off our insurance. i've got a letter, because her husband, the small business owner, they couldn't afford it anymore. she's got cystic fibrosis. she was calling so hard she couldn't talk on the phone. the mom writes at the end of the letter, we need you to be our voice. that's what this bill is about. that's what the president emphasized. >> so, the point right now is to sell the bill and to sell the disadvantages of not passing the bill, the costs which will go up, the loss of insurance coverage, which will occur, the president made all those points today. you, senators, have made the positive case for the bill as it stands. but let me bring you back to the politics. the front page of "the new york times" today which is sold heavily in connecticut, said, look at the headline, lieberman gets ex-party to shift on health plan. it seems to me that "the new york times," even if its objectivity, has had it with joe lieberman. would you say that's the case, senator shaheen, that they're taking it to this guy and are basically saying that he has muscled his way in to influencing a major piece of democratic legislation by just saying, if you don't have me, you don't have a bill, and you don't have me, so you better dump the medicare proposal and dump the public option or i'm not aboard? is it front page -- is the front page of "the new york times" accurate today? senator shaheen? >> well, i think there are a lot of compromises in this bill made because a lot of people have had an influence on it. joe lieberman's issues have been more public than many people's. but regardless of where he's been, the bottom line is, this is a bill that's going to make a difference for people. it's going to make a difference because we're going to cover 33 million more americans. it's going to make a difference because it's going to address the long-term costs of health care. as amy says, $130 billion in savings to the deficit over the first ten years. so it's a plan that we need to support. it's a start. and we're going to come back. there -- this is not an issue that's going to end when we pass this bill. >> yeah, you know, i think vice president biden said it best at that meeting. >> yeah. >> in his gravely voice, chris, you would have loved this moment, he said, come on, people. he said, i've been there for 30 years. and these bills, major pieces of legislation, reforms get added, things get better as time goes on, but we have to get this done for the people of this country. >> we've been trying to do this for over 60 years. >> okay. >> this is our opportunity. >> well, senators, let's listen to joe biden, the vice president who was on "morning joe" on this network today. let's listen. i think he made this point in this bit. >> what i learned from mike mansfield when i first got there, i told you this story, he said never question another man's motive. question his judgment. i think joe's judgment is wrong in this. if health care does not pass in this congress, then -- and every day gets closer to the election as opposed to having more breathing room to actually have discussions and real open fights here, it is -- it makes it -- it's going to be kicked back for a generation. and i think any democrat who decides for their own shallow purposes, if that were the case, to scuttle this is not going to have -- you know, in the southern parts of our states, joe, not going to have a friend in the lord. >> wow. that seems to be the word from the vice president. senator shaheen, it looks like the democrats have reached some kind of agreement here to move ahead with what you've got. is that fair to say? go with what you've got? >> well, i think it's fair to say that we think we've got a good piece of legislation, that it's going to reform health care in a way that makes a difference. now, we're still negotiating around some of the points in the bill. so we don't have a date to vote yet. but we're all working very hard and hopefully we're going to get this done. >> do you consider, both of you, joe lieberman, to be a fellow democrat? first up, senator klobuchar, is joe lieberman a fellow democrat or is he an outrider who has proven very difficult here? which of the two assessments would you offer? >> you know, you can be both. let me tell you this, chris. when you look at his voting record, i know that there are major disagreements with him and some of his positions on the iraq war, from the past, as well as this health care reform debate. but when you look at the times that we needed 60 votes throughout this process with the stimulus bill and with other things that we did for the people of this country, you name it, he has been there on environmental issues, he's been there on women's issues and he has voted with democrats. so no matter how mad people might be at him right now, when you look at his record and you say, does he vote more like a democrat or does he vote more like a republican? he votes more like a democrat. >> no, i said, does he vote more like a democrat or like an outlier who has been very difficult in this bill? >> i said you could characterize him as both ways for the purposes of this discussion. >> you said other people were mad at him. are you mad at him? >> i think everyone gets irritated when you want to get to a goal line, when you want to get this thing done and someone's kind of running zigzag down the field, but in the end, joe lieberman today stood up and said that he wants to see the details, he's inclined to be supportive of this bill. >> that's right. that's the bottom line. >> we need 60 votes. >> is it healthy to have someone, senator shaheen, who represents the insurance industry of hartford, connecticut, sculpting this bill at the end, putting the final touches on it, if you will? is that healthy for your party to have a colleague, if you will, from hartford, connecticut, on behalf of the insurance industry, defining the final touches of the health care bill which will make your point in history for the democratic party right now? >> look, we all have -- >> is it healthy? >> we all have our own regional differences. there are a number of other people who would express some of the same concerns that joe had. i think what's healthy is, no pun intended, to make sure we get a health care reform bill that's going to do the kinds of changes that amy and i have talked about. >> okay. >> and i hope that joe's going to be with us in the final count. >> you know, chris, i would love to get the reimportation of drugs passed today. i'm going to vote for that. i've been a big believer in that. we may not pass that. and i will go on to fight another day with byron dorgan and other people to get that done. we're not afraid of canadian drugs in minnesota. people come from canada all the time. that's our vote tonight. >> or new hampshire. >> or new hampshire. >> you have things in common, you can reach canada in a car ride from either state, which justifies the trip, doesn't it? >> yes. >> anyway, senators amy klobuchar, senator jeanne shaheen, i hope you get the bill done by christmas. coming up, radicalization of some muslims living in america. five people living here who come from muslim backgrounds are in custody right now in pakistan for trying to join our enemies over there in afghanistan. how can the government keep track of radical muslims living here? and will the trial of khalid shaikh mohammed up in new york lead to more of this kind of radicalization like we saw with nidal hasan down in the south? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc, down in ft. hood. 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(announcer) ...makes fgr a perfect beginning. maybe we'll keep her. (cheerios spilling) (announcer) how can something so little... ...help do something so big. welcome back to hardball. is the u.s. growing more susceptible to the radicalization of muslims living in this country? five muslims living in america are being detained in pakistan right now to fight the united states forces over in afghanistan. this incident follows, of course, the november killing of 13 people at ft. hood by the alleged shooter, army major nidal hasan who had publicly voiced opposition to fighting muslims in iraq and afghanistan. how can the united states government keep track of radical muslims in this country and prevent american muslims, and develop some are americans, from falling prey to islamic extremism? irslad manju is the author of the book "the trouble with islam today." and the chief of foreign relations over in europe. professor, i want to ask you about this. what is your initial impulsive reaction when you hear about five young people in their early 20s apparently or younger, in fact, two of them or three of them with pakistani background in their family, two of them from the horn of africa from eritrea and from ethiopia, what does it say to you when these five guys are over there trying to join up with our enemies? >> chris, i have to same i'm not surprised. but not because i feel my fellow muslims are susceptible to jihadi violence, not at all. but simply because i know from having done the research that this is happening not just in western europe, it's been going on there for years, but also in places like canada. kind, gentle canada, where only three years ago 18 young muslim men were busted for screaming to behead the prime minister and blow up the parliament buildings. it stands to reason that from time to time we are going to see examples like this happening in the united states. my concern, chris, is that the fbi, thank god, is foiling more and more of these plots in the u.s. how many more are out there? and of course why aren't moderate muslims doing more to challenge the religious interpretations that lead to jihadi violence? >> are these coming from the mosques? >> not necessarily. study upon study has shown that the vast majority of muslims in america don't even bother attending mosque. and if they do, it's purely on ceremonial grounds. no. i really think that there's something deeper going on here. i think that the sort of challenges that need to be happening to the kinds of religious interpretations that are all over the internet are not happening in the places that really matter. the homes, for example, of many moderate muslims. >> well, we have a history in this country of people going to fight other people's battles. abraham lincoln fighting the fascists in spain. here you have people going over to join organizations that are fighting us. killing americans. that scares you. >> it is scary. we've dodged this for a long time, because of the way the muslim community here has integrated in american society. >> 1.8 million muslims in this country. >> but because these wars have gone on so long and the struggles have gone on so long and there's so much press about it, and there's a lot of tension, i think you're starting to see the same situation develop that happened in europe, where you get disaffected young people just angry about what's going on. they're angry about iraq, pakistan, israel, whatever. >> right. >> they get together and start talking about it. all it takes is one of them that is a little more background, little more training or a little more commitment that makes them particularly dangerous. in this case, these guys didn't. they were sort of amateurs wanting to be that. that's where the danger lies, that you have a group like this around their friends or they're members of a club or something like that. and then someone who does come in who has been to pakistan or been to yemen and been trained. then you have a problem. the only way to protect it is the leadership of the islamic community, the muslim community. >> that's what irshad said. i'm trying to appreciate this who is a westerner, obviously a christian, i'm trying to figure out through common sense. if i'm 22 years old, some of these guys are in their early 20s, for the last eight years i've watched television, kept up with events, read the papers and talked to my friends. and all i hear is americans, rightly or wrongly, killing islamic people every night on television. every night that's what we do. i know it started with 9/11, and you can argue they started it, you can argue also their argument from the bin laden crowd is we started it by putting 10,000 troops in the holy land of saudi arabia. i can hear all the arguments, race wars and religious wars don't need a beginning and they rarely have an end. and you can always come up with the other side's wrong. you can always claim the other side, we can do it, they can do it. >> you said something very important at the beginning of that statement there which is that all we ever hear is -- and then fill in the blank. that's the problem. what we rarely hear, chris, is that the vast majority of muslims are killed by other muslims. not by any foreign power. >> yeah. >> for example, just this last week, muslims came out with a report on behalf of west point military academy deriving their data from arabic language sources, chris, in order to preempt charges of western bias. that showed unequivocally that in the last few years alone, 80% of al qaeda's victims have been muslims. and in the last two years, 98%. >> what does that tell you? how does that get you any further? the i.r.a. used to kill irish people. it didn't stop the wars over there for the longest time. >> we know, news reports have pointed out routinely that one of the suspects of the pakistani -- excuse me, of the muslim americans now detained in pakistan left behind a video showing muslim carnage and then saying that we need to defend our fellow muslims. where these young men heading over to pakistan to join an al qaeda-driven jihad, they are not going to be defending muslims at all. they're likely going to be killing them. that's the message that needs to get out. broader, further, faster. >> tyler, does that work or do they just accuse those people of being uncle toms, of going along with the west more or less? >> let them! let them. >> i think that's something that has to happen. there has to be a commitment from the leadership, the families of the leadership of the muslim community. on the other hand, there also has to be recognition, i think the fbi does do a good job on this. they have to be careful to not make the problem worse. we also shouldn't overreact to this and think that all the -- that hundreds of these cells all over the united states. there probably aren't. and this was good because their families actually turned them in, or the parts of -- but i think -- >> you and i do. we talked about it before. we all live in a world because of the tradesmen in this country and the success with which the imig ray communities have come over here. i rely on my pharmacist for advice. his name is hussein. he's islamic by his background. he's iranian. we go to a lamp store on a regular basis. we go to a frame shop on a regular basis. you know, these people work with us on a regular basis. all islamic background. we live in a world very mixed that way now. the idea that they are our enemy is absurd. so what do you do? >> this is the thing you have to be careful. this is what separates us still from europe. >> horrible thing to profile. >> if you go into a muslim neighborhood in brussels or frankfurt, i lived most of my life in europe, it's like going to cairo, or like going to -- >> it's totally isolated. >> you're totally isolated. you stand out. you feel like you're in a foreign country. in this country, we don't have that. we have to be careful not to get to that point. >> that's why i'm fanatical about at least sharing a common language. we can have our own second language or third language but ought to have at least one language in common. i really think we get segmented that way. it's trouble. your thoughts? >> by the way, gentlemen, a couple of years ago, the pew resea