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we went to the mondawmin corridor. they just outnumbered us and outflanked us. bill: that was yesterday. there is an entirely possible newer the city of baltimore today and they are hopefully as best they can learning from the mistakes of the past 18 hours or so not to be repeated today. will that happen? bill gavin is the former assistant director of the f.b.i. how is it if you are running a city or even a state for that matter that you can find yourself in a situation where you are outnumbered and outflanked? can you explain that? >> where civil disobedience is permitted. civil disobedience will prevail. the actions of the police, the
law enforcement officers in baltimore who have been outnumbered stood by as places were looted, who have run in the face of rioters throwing bricks at them. that is why baltimore is out of control. so you don't need more restraint. you actually need more force to control the situation on the ground and protect innocent property owners and business owners. martha: we couldn't hear end of what -- >> overnight, 200 arrests were made. arrests were made this morning. and i think, i think the situation you're right. there need to be arrests. there needs to be use of force against people perpetrating violence. >> of course. >> i think it is happening. >> we're not protecting people who are burning police cars. we have to be very clear here. we're protecting citizens of baltimore. we're not worried about people, those are people who need to go to jail and quigley. you're right there have been number of arrests. rich, there has been this tone that we have to be somewhat, everyone in this country wants people to be able to protest
on the side of the rioters. one of the reasons why police have to use force besides wanting to get their arms around this thing to regain control, defeat the spirit of these rioters, let them know in the long run this is not doing to work out real well for them. as long as you go in there with law enforcement sisters officers and tie their hands all will happen you will keep law enforcement officers in harm's way. this thing will not get better. i don't care if you put two times the amount of officers in there. you have to turn them loose to reasonably under the law use force to get this situation under control. martha: we saw the mayor on sunday, she was talking about the balance between the protesters and protection. she said we have to give them space to destroy. she later tried to take those words back. you hear what the police on the ground have told our reporters. when asked why you are guys holding back, they're saying, quote ask the mayor. >> the heck with balance at this point. i'm looking to win. i'm looking for baltimore's
police cars on fire. so you have to have a zero tolerance policy, do you not? as bill gavin said, former fbi when the first rock is thrown that is when you make the first arrest, do you agree? >> without a doubt. there was more than just rocks being hurled. there were pieces of concrete being thrown which i think in some circumstances a deadly force response is justifiable. i'm not saying to fully unload but at the same time, when i see cops getting bricks and pieces of concrete being thrown at them, all they can do is ward it off, they're in a losing situation. so, if the mayor you know, balancing forget about balance. they have to win. and they have to win now. martha: what about the death of this 25-year-old man in the van when he was under police custody? what do you think about that? >> we don't have enough facts. i don't have any of the fact the other than the fact that a man lost his life in an interaction with the police. we have to let the investigation ride its course to find out what
got it right. thank you bill gaffe vine. thank you for your time in joining us today. frederick douglass high school was the high school we saw let out. we believe the pictures from the helicopters are the students throwing the bricks and stones at the officers as they were back pedaling off that side street. you have a situation where the curfew has been announced but it doesn't go in place for another 12 hours. the schools are closed and the national guard for the first time is outside city hall. the governor will talk at noon eastern. martha: thanks, bill. we'll have more on ball moral in a couple minutes. the colorado move irtheater gunman is on trial two years later. the prosecute yoorl is going try
administrative people who run the police department made a horrendous mistake and they have to take responsibility for what happened here. the first rock thrown is the first person to get pea rested and everyone after that until you put an end to it. then you can address the situation. but during the course of something like this. people jumping you have and down on police cars and people throwing rocts at police, you cannot get ahead of it unless you put that problem down. bill: we talked to our fox crews who were out late last night. when they were watching athletes and police officers stand there watching them do that. they asked the comes why are you not stopping this. their answer to our fox crews was talk to the mayor. what's that about? >> that's absolutely right. they were not permitted to do
bill: all right peter. peter doocey, thank you, from the scene there. we're just trying to catch a little more of some of these images of the looters, in broad daylight here, in baltimore. okay now, i want to go back to new york. in a moment martha we'll get more from baltimore, to let you know what is happening with the national guard out here and extent of law enforcement that is now visible. it is 10:00 in the morning. they have many, many hours to go before they have a chance now to keep a lid on this. in this great american city that was trashed overnight last night. martha? martha: indeed they have their wo3k cut out for them. we want to take our viewers to the live shot were the naacp is speaking out at this moment. a lot of people looking for leadership in this situation some words of wisdom that will set things right on the streets of baltimore. we'll montor that. we'll let you know what is said turn around some of that sound for you what is needed coming into this.
we want to get to the milwaukee county sheriff a voice of reason and has been outspoken on these issues from across the country. he is david clark. he joins us this morning from milwaukee, wisconsin. sheriff, thank you very much for being here today. >> morning martha. martha: you see these scenes and we're seeing more looting this morning. looks like the police got the situation under control but what we heard and saw on the streets of baltimore last night was that the police there were, by their own admission outnumbered and outflanked. how does that happen? >> total failure of leadership from the city of officials andce commanders. i'm tired of saying -- seeing our nation's finest, baltimore's finest put into these situations with no way to defend themselves. you can not put law enforcement officers into a riot situation and tie one hand behind their back with the main goal of not trying to escalate things. you meet force with force. that is only thing these rioters understand. there were 15 casualties on the police side. i haven't heard of one casualty
happened. in time they will. there is no doubt about that. but this did not, this, rioting we saw go on last night over the last few days had nothing to do with freddie gray. these people did not know freddie gray. they never met freddie gray. they weren't at his funeral. they had really no concern. this was an exploited situation by these thugs by these criminal, bit criminal element of baltimore, to exploit this situation. and ruin it for the law-abiding people of baltimore and those struggling areas. the overwhelming majority who are good, law-abiding people. this is subhuman behavior. this is subculture of the black community in baltimore and it has to be crushed. >> sheriff clark, always good to hear from you. >> thank you martha. martha: many thanks. bill: you know martha, that vc vc --cvs store has become a symbol. some of the locals told me the