happened. it seems dubious that the russian military, in other words, would want to take down a major passenger plane. certainly with not the intent of taking it down. again, we simply don t know who brought this down. i m also here with lieu dtenant colonel rick francona. just in terms of kants, we have not seen separatists heretofor, they have brought down at least one transport plane, but they were not flying at 33,000 feet. yeah, this would require, as we were talking about, a more sophisticated system. talking about, you know, hitting it inadvertently, it would be very difficult for that to happen. generally once you re locked onto the target, it goes to that target. and if it veers off that target and is no longer being guided, they self-destruct. but when you re targeting a plane at that altitude, are you clear on exactly what kind of a plane it is? no, it s a return on your radar. right. it will be a certain size, you can estimate the size of the aircraft. you may have other sensors that tell you what it is. but, you know, once you re getting radar returns and you engage the weapon, it just follows the radar path right up to the aircraft. so bob baer s earlier point that this is all trackable, that we will soon know where this missile, if that, in fact, is what it was was fired from, do you believe that? if we have the right sensors in the right place at the right time, yes. if you were monitoring. if you were looking for it, the radar signals can be intercepted. you can analyze those after the fact. can you even sometimes detect the launch of the missile. but your sensors have to be aimed at that spot at that time. and do we know if ukrainian government, which, i mean, their military capabilities have come under a huge amount of questions over the last couple of months. although they have improved lately. whether they would have the capabilities of monitoring that area? the ukrainian armed forces would be able to detect the radars. that s very easy to do. they should be able to, whether one believes them or not, but they should be able to identify where this missile was fired from? they should not only be able to do that, what kind of radar it was, there would be multiple radar signals. there would be a search radar. there would be an acquisition radar, a guidance radar. so they should be able to determine all that. if they have that information, that surely indicates a launch of a weapon and that this was a shootdown. absent that, we don t know. was this an on-board explosion? was it hit with something? there s questions also about command and control of a device like that over who exactly would make such a call to actually fire that kind of a weapon, how organized it is. the russian air defense, when they move, they re all networked together. and someone is in charge. now, if this is a division asset, they would make that decision. if they were provided to the separatists and i think that would be a remote possibility, you know, the systems are self-contained. once you ve got the you know, the radar system and the missile system and you ve got it up and running someone locally can do it. yes. it s not a centralized command. it would not have to be controlled, say, at a filter center up in the chain of command. but again, you believe the likelihood that any of these separatist groups that we have seen operating over the last 3 1/2 months in this conflict, that they would have the weaponry capable of bringing down a plane at this altitude? i agree. i think that s exactly right. hitting something at 33,000 feet requires a much more sophisticated capability than a man pads or something that a dissident group would have. our jim acosta is standing by at the white house. we ve been hearing reports about conversations between russia and the united states. jim, what are you hearing? reporter: right. well, we reported earlier this morning, anderson, that president obama and vladimir putin had a phone call earlier this morning to talk about those sanctions that the u.s. imposed on russia. and it was unclear, according to white house press secretary josh ernest, as to whether or not president obama and vladimir putin talked about these reports of this plane crash. and now we can confirm, according to the press secretary, that president putin did note these reports to president obama near the end of their phone call. so they did talk about it just briefly. it s not clear as to how much they talked about it or what they discussed in terms of covering that bit of news. but they did talk about it. one thing we should also point out, anderson, you ve been talking about what are the capabilities of these separatists and what may have caused that plane to come down. we should point out that senior administration officials briefing reporters yesterday on a conference call about these sanctions that the u.s. imposed noted that some of the defense firms that were being sanctioned were responsible for the production and i m just reading from this of a range of material from small arms to mortar shells to surface-to-air missiles to tanks. the senior administration officials also noted that on july 14th ukrainians lost a transport jet which was shot down from an altitude of 21,000 feet with a crew on board, and the senior administration official noted, anderson, that only very sophisticated weapons systems would be able to reach this height. and so this is part of the concern the president was expressing yesterday in the briefing room here at the white house when he announced these sanctions is that this flow of arms and fighters from russia and ukraine, that s what the u.s. is alleging, was further de-escalating the crisis in ukraine, and that is why the united states decided to bring forth these sanctions. but the headline, anderson, is that these two presidents did talk about this plane crash earlier this morning. we re digging for more details as to exactly what they did discuss, though, anderson. we ll come back to you. i want to go to capitol hill where senator john mccain is standing by live. senator mccain, what do you make of the information that you have heard thus far? thus far, we really don t know what caused it. but the fact is they were able to, quote, separatists, were able to shoot down an aircraft at 21,000 feet shows that there was capabilities. i do not want to leap to any conclusions because we, as you mentioned, it could be an explosion. it could be all kinds of reasons. but if it was a missile that took this plane down, then it has to be a very sophisticated weapons system. and the ukrainians do not have that capability. so if it is the case, we re going to have to act and act in the most stringent fashion including real sanctions, including giving the ukrainians the ability to defend themselves, which we have not done so far. when you say the ukrainians themselves don t have that system, are you talking about the ukrainian government in kiev, or are you talking about ukrainian separatists? the ukrainian government in kiev. the separatists you know, i don t know because they are russian, as we know. they re not separate, russians and separatists. we all know that. the head of the separatists is a kgb army guy or fsb army guy. whether they gave them that capability or whether it was a russian capability is really almost a difference without a distinction without a difference. but again, we don t want to jump to conclusions until we have absolute facts of the case. do you have any information about people on board, if there were any americans on board this flight? have you been given any kind of a briefing at this point? no, we have not. i just talked to some intel people, and they aren t sure yet exactly what happened here. you know, it s horrific. i remember back when they shot down a korean airliner and the repercussions that had throughout the world. and this is even worse in many respects. how closely i mean, obviously, you have been watching the situation in eastern ukraine very closely over the last 3 1/2 months. i was there really at the height of the crisis several months ago. it did seem for a time sha vladimir putin had, at least according to published reports, withdrawn a number of his forces, but it does seem, over the last several weeks or so, that those forces have been rebuilding along the border. and more disturbing than that, they ve shot down several aircraft, as you know, over the last few weeks, including the transport that was as high as 21,000 feet. i think putin was disappointed that he didn t get more support both in eastern ukraine, odessa, other parts of southern so it was russian equipment that was either moved into eastern ukraine or from russia that s helped. most likely moved into eastern ukraine. so they have been doing it. but again, it s impossible for me to imagine this thing being, if it is a shootdown, nothing but a tragic mistake on their part from their point of view, much less the humanitarian aspect of it. right. it would seem that there s no strategic reason or any kind of a reason to bring down for any side to bring down a passenger jet. it doesn t serve a strategic goal in any sense. in fact, if if i keep emphasizing if it was a missile that was launched either by russia or the, quote, separatists, which in my view are indivisible, this would have the most profound repercussions. it would open the gates for our assisting finally the ukrainians, giving them some defensive weapons. the sanctions that would be imposed as a result of that, that would just be the beginning. so i just cannot believe that no one in their right mind would want to shoot down an airliner. senator john mccain, i appreciate your time. thank you very much. thank you. we ll continue to consult with you and others on capitol hill. our nick paton walsh is standing by in london. i understand you have new information you re hearing from nato. reporter: not from nato, but i was speaking to informed individuals who can basically explain to me what kind of capability there is for tracking incidents like this. three possible different ways that are in nato s assets. one, a ground radar that they have, but that doesn t reach far enough into ukrainian territory outside. informed individuals say to be able to track something like this happening in ukraine. other option, there are nato awacs monitoring planes flying over poland and romania to monitor that area because those nato members feel increasingly threatened because of what s happening. now, they would not be able to pick up this either. people talk about space satellites, the belief that we re monitored by the assets that the u.s. have in the sky, but my understanding is that ballistic missiles are picked up and tracked by that. that s ground to ground. that s a scud or an icbm, something pretty enormous. that s tracked by these satellites. but what i understand is not a surface-to-air missile. so there may be something else out there perhaps in the u.s. military armory which can look at things like this. there may be a radar in play that people aren t overly aware about. but according to these informed sources i ve spoken to, we re pretty sure that the major assets nato have don t have some sort of magic rewind button and look at what happened. the people who do and this is where it s going to get particularly interesting or complicated as the blame game begins those who do are the russian military. it s their border space, their capabilities. they will know precisely what happened, as i m sure the ukrainians will have their own anlt capabilities, too. as this blame game continues, they ll, of course, have their own versions of events that they wish to put out. it s interesting to see that we may not magically in the next few hours have a crystal-clear picture from nato as to what they think has happened here, anderson. and richard quest who s joining us as well here in new york, i mean, you know, we ve been focusing on this as sort of a geopolitical incident. we ve been focusing on this as a military incident. but just as a human tragedy, we re talking about 280 passengers, 15 crew members on board this plane. this is a plane that left from amsterdam at 12:15 heading to kuala lumpur. there will be people from all over the world on board this airline. not only yes is the short answer. but look at the date. it s mid to late july. this is a holiday flight for people from europe going to kl and then right through the region. kl being kuala lumpur. and vice versa from europe. this is the typical summer holiday. you have vacation, you have business travelers. you re going to have a disaster rescue operation in kuala lumpur similar to what we saw. i ve just been talking to some pilots in europe this morning. one pilot in particular flying back from moscow this morning was said that there was activity flying over the area, was told, you know, there was activity in the region. there are many pilots that have, for a long time, been extremely concerned about flying over this conflict zone. because of the dangers. now, this pilot i spoke to this morning regularly flies across eastern ukraine, donetsk on his way to moscow. not once or twice, frequently. and he says they are all concerned and scared at what they know have been happening. i see in the last couple of moments transarrow, the russian airline, says it will no longer fly over ukrainian. lufthansa saying it will no longer fly over ukraine. that might be closing the stable door after the horse is bolted. it s clearly been an issue for some time. it of course raises the question now and a question that will be asked by family members of those on board this plane is why wasn t that done sooner? why were planes continuing to fly over such a troubled region, considering that two planes, and one, as senator mccain was pointing out, had been shot down already at 21,000 feet. that s exactly the point. and we know that the faa had a prohibition against flying over crimea and the black sea for u.s. carriers. so there s no doubt that this was a known rick of fsk of flyi this eastern part. it shouldn t have been as big a problem as it has been. but we re looking at the most horrific example of that. miles o brien is joining us from d.c. on the phone. again, miles, i mean, you know this flight path well. you re a pilot yourself. and just talk about a little bit about what is happening now behind the scenes not only with malaysian airlines but all the various countries in the region in terms of dealing with the family members of those on board this flight. is that for miles? yeah, miles, you re on the air. okay. yeah, my apologies. what i can tell you is this. a civilian airliner at flight levels generally is going to be flying down corridors in the sky that would make it very clear what it was doing, what its intent was and the fact that it is not a nonfriendly object. so you have to ask a couple of questions. was there some sort of weather in the region which would have caused this airliner to deviate off of that known flight path which could have aroused some sort of suspicion that was, as it turns out, wrong suspicion which might have made someone on the ground at the controls of a surface-to-air missile to determine that this was an aircraft with some sort of unfriendly intent. the other question you have to ask yourself is, you know, since april, the u.s. federal aviation administration has prohibited u.s. carriers from flying anywhere near this region. because of the concerns of what we re just talking about here right now. and you have to ask why an airline crew, why airline dispatch would make a conscious decision to fly across a war zone, in essence. not declare war, but a war zone is what it is. and so was that, frankly, the straightest the shortest distance between two points is a straight line that takes you right through that area. and this is probably a fuel-saving, time-saving decision. we ll have to see how that plays out as we hear from malaysian airlines. the other thing we have to remember is this horrible unfortunate coincidence that we re talking about apparently, malaysian airline, in this case, we ve already seen pictures of wreckage on the ground. we will know pretty quickly what happened here. an experienced aviation investigator will be able to determine if it blew up from the inside out or outside in. if there s the presence of the kind of fuel that is used for the surface-to-air missiles, rocket fuel, in essence. this will be something that can be found out fairly definitively fairly quickly. i think we ll get answers, but it s not a pretty picture when you consider the decision to fly in this zone and who actually made the call to actually launch that surface-to-air missile. it goes right back to korean airlines 007 back in the early 1983, in the absolute depth of the cold war with the soviets. in that case a fighter jet shot down a 747 with 290 people aboard. we should also point out russia 24 news agency is reporting that the black box has been found, and the crash identified some 60 kilometers, they say, from the russian border. nick paton walsh joins us again from london. i understand you have information about separatists on the ground. well, we re hearing from the pro-kiev government, a billionaire appointed by kiev, he s released a statement in which he says at this moment separatists are preventing any ukrainian investigators from getting to that particular site. he says that will severely hamper their ability to perform any kind of investigation. he also hints later on in the statement the possibility that that may, in fact, be being done deliberately to hide the remains and hinder any investigation going forward. he offers condolences to the family and asks them to permit an investigation here. you see clearly they are this came down in territory held by separatists where the ukrainian military does not have a strong presence. and it seems now, of course, that the ukrainian government itself may have an extraordinarily hard time getting anybody to that place to begin an investigation, all of which will slant what we hear in the days ahead, anderson. which truly, then, raises questions, nick, about who would actually undertake any kind of investigation, what would happen to the black box. the idea if separatists are holding this area, that still has to be worked out. reporter: absolutely. i mean, i think, obviously, the ukraine authorities, they don t control that territory. the separatists do not have the capability to analyze a black box. you have to also ask yourself whether the russians juan want to take that on board and analyze it themselves. it s something they have to give to the international community in a more transparent fashion. it s very messy, the relationship between the separatists and the russian government. they were repeatedly asked by moscow not to hold a referendum about the independence. they ignored that, pushed ahead. people have said that public fissure is for show, that they re really secretly still being run. i think it s clear now that the ukrainian military is on the advance. the open at the same time statd dismay, they re not getting what they expected out of moscow. and that s really going to be key now. do they look to russian officials to move in and investigation, or there s no real investigation actually happening. we re in a very violent civil war at this point, anderson. i want to go to peter goelz with the national transportation safety board, a cnn aviation analyst. peter, obviously, an extremely complicated if, in fact, separatists are preventing ukrainian authorities which seem to make sense, how would this be investigated? i think that that s a great question. iko is the obvious organization, the international civil aviation organization. they must demand immediately an independent, impartial investigation with safety guaranteed by the ukraine, by russia to put a team in there. you know, following you did an extraordinary special on twa on tuesday night. i managed that investigation. we did an enormous amount of testing with the fbi and the u.s. navy on missile strikes and commercial aircraft. there s an enormous amount of information in the resources of the u.s. we ll know what kind of missile, where it struck. it may not be in the black boxes, but we have a lot of information. but the key thing is for the international community to demand an immediate, independent investigation. we can t leave this in the hands of the russians or the ukrainians or the ukrainian separatists. peter, what sort of information i mean, if it was, in fact, a missile strike, would there be information in the black box that that could kind of illuminate that, that could give you information? there could be, depending on how the missile detonated and how the plane came apart. but it also could have been, as it was in twa, both the voice recorder and the data recorder ended in a nanosecond. and there was only the briefest sound on the voice recorder. but a voice analysis, a sound analysis of that showed that it was a certain kind of explosion. it was not similar to say the lockerbie explosion. it was a lower or explosion which indicated that it was a fuel air explosion. so there is a, say, a wealth of material and information in the uk and in the united states that can help solve exactly what happened here. peter, when you see the pictures that we ve seen of large pieces of fuselage, the flag from malaysia airlines clearly visible on pieces of the aircraft, does it surprise you that an aircraft hit at 33,000 feet, that there would be these large pieces on the ground? no, it s perfectly explainable. once the plane s the integrity of the aircraft body is compromised, it literally unzips and comes apart in these kinds of large pieces. it is a horrific tragedy. and if you look at twa, the reconstruction that s kept out near dulles airport now at a training facility, you can see very similar pieces of wreckage. i mean, for, again, i keep coming back to the fact that there were 280 people on board this plane, there were 15 crew members on board this plane, 295 people in all. i m not even sure how to ask this question, and maybe just think about how you would answer it. i mean, are they killed instantly? i mean, is it is a painful question, and it is asked, you know, after each event. on something like this where it appears as though the plane came undone at a high altitude, most likely death would be instantaneously. on kal007 where it was shot down by a russian fighter plane, the plane struggled in the air and came down over a much longer period of time. but on something like this where the wreckage is over a vast amount of territory, my guess is it came undone at altitude, and thankfully in this kind of tragedy, death was very quickly. was quick. 295 people on board. and just in that image, we saw a guide book, a lonely planet guide book for bali, the idea you brought up, richard, these are people headed on vacation. these are people probably with their families going on vacation to bali, to other places. absolutely no question in my mind. at this time of the year, that plane is full of holiday makers on their way to do lifelong holidays. now i m sorry, i m told we re getting some more information from jim sciutto. jim, what are you hearing? anderson, i ve just been told by the ukrainian foreign ministry that it is their belief that this plane was taken down by a russian-made buk missile system that you have mentioned before on the air. this is a truck-mounted missile system. they believe that this was a system used to take this plane down, that it occurred at 10,000 meters, about 33,000 feet. they also make the point that a couple of weeks ago, russian separatists claimed and bragged to have captured such a buk missile system inside eastern ukraine. in fact, at a ukrainian base and that there were pictures on russian television of this captured buk missile launcher. and officials also telling me there s a picture up on the screen right now. we re showing our viewers. this is the buk system that you re talking about. yeah. and the official i spoke to in the foreign ministry said that one reason that they re concluding this is that this is the only missile that could hit a plane, a passenger jet like this, at an altitude of 10,000 feet. anyway, that s the conclusion they re coming to already, that this was the system there, as you re seeing on the screen. let me just stop you there. just for clarification s sake, again, this is coming from ukrainian officials. but basically this is a guess by them. they re not saying at this point that they have radar that has confirmed that this is a buk system. they are saying simply this is the only kind of system that could have brought down a plane at this altitude, correct? i m told, anderson, that it is not just a guess, that this assessment is coming from the ukrainian military. now, obviously part of that is an assessment based on the capability of the missile. but they have not told me i do not know if they have missile-tracking data, but it is at least their belief that this is the system that took down the plane. and you re saying, again, because it bears repeating because this is an important point that you raise, that ukrainian separatists, so-called separatists, senator mccain sort of qualifies that term or uses that term cautiously, but that certainly those fighting the government in kiev for separation or a connection with russia in eastern ukraine, that they had bragged about getting their hands on a buk system previously? that s right. not only bragged about it but shown pictures of it in their possession and that the russian television had done reports on this as they captured this weapons system. another indicator, anderson, as the ukrainian government makes this conclusion about this being the system that took the plane down is just what i told you earlier when we spoke a short time ago, that they are also looking at evidence that the plane came apart at altitude which would, from their perspective, and our experts perspective, indicate the possibility of a missile strike at least. so i think what you have here is the ukrainian government looking at a number of indicators here and saying they believe it was a buk missile system that was used to take this plane down. again, as you referenced and as we repeatedly referenced as we ve spoken, these are early conclusions as the clues are just coming in. and again, i m here with richard quest and lieutenant colonel rick francona. again, we ve talked about this buk system. the idea, though, that separatists had gotten their hands on it somehow, whether with permission or without permission, do you find it likely that separatists could figure out how to fire and operate this system? that s the question. if they got their hands on this, that s a quantum increase in capability. then the question is who operated this system? it s not inconceivable that the russians would have provided that expertise to them. formerly with the military. could be or someone that has that training is now part of the russian separatist group. somebody who knows who you to use that system had to be involved in this. you just don t walk in, sit down and start let s just play this by ear and see if we can make it work. i just wanted to talk on the aviation side of this, as opposed to the military side of it, it would appear, anderson, that this area was not under restriction. according to the international airline association, represents all the airlines, although both the europeans and the americans had prohibitions over crimea and parts of the black sea, this eastern part of ukraine was not on the prohibition list for flying over. now, in the last hour, we ve heard from lieu tlufthansa and turkish. this is an old picture from flight radar. if you look at flight radar 24 thousand there s still aircraft flying there. there s still aircraft there s still aircraft flying there. if we were to show a picture of flight radar 24 over that area now, you were just showing yeah, i can t get it on my phone right now, but yeah, we just took a look at the live radar, there are still aircraft operating in this area. civilian aircraft. yes. and the pilots i ve been speaking to this morning still say one of my colleagues or one of my friends flew from missco to a destination in western europe. you re looking at a still photo there. we re looking at live information on various mobile devices. who makes that decision? is it individual airlines who then make the decision, okay, we re no longer going to fly, or is there an international body? no international body. i mean, they might ban it completely, yes. they could in that situation. but normally it would be the airline. it would be the regulator. so the european regulator, the national regulatoregulator, the. i would imagine within the hour we re going to start seeing total regulatory bans. and the question is, why wasn t that done sooner given the concern richard was hearing from a number of pilots for some time. our barbara starr is with us. barbara, what are you hearing? anderson, this is rapidly shaping up tore a security crisis across europe. what i am hearing is that both military services and intelligence services across europe now looking at their intelligence systems for any clues about what may have happened here. there are a number of military and intelligence radars across europe run by the european nations, also by the united states, some of them. and they are all now scrambling, looking for any clues, any signals in their systems, any infrared heat signatures, any acoustic signatures about what may have happened. what we know now is that the u.s. satellite systems that watch for ballistic missile launches, those satellites did not record this event because it happened essentially in a different trajectory than what a ballistic missile would have flown. so u.s. satellites did not see it. those that watch europe for ballistic missile launches. now the military, the intelligence community in the u.s. going back through everything that they have. the supreme allied commander in europe, general phillip breedlove, who is a four-star u.s. air force general who runs all nato military operations in europe has been briefed around the clock since this happened. he s been looking at this. he s looking at nato awacs airplanes. those are radar airplanes that nato flies over europe because of the russian crisis to see if they recorded anything. general breedlove also certainly working with his european military and intelligence counterparts across the continent. so one of the things happening here, anderson, very quickly, because this is an airspace issue, you are now really starting to see other european nations move in, weigh in and look at what information they may have. i also want to go back a minute and underscore some u.s. officials, just as some of your guests said on the air, looking at this russian system called the buk. the buk anti-aircraft missile system. whether it was russian, whether it was separatists, whoever may be operating one, whether they were involved with this or not, this is one of the systems that the u.s. military, the u.s. intelligence community scrutinizing right now to see if it was possibly involved. they know that this system is on the border. they know that the russians know how to operate it. you just have to look at it. you see how complex it is. they are looking to see if there s any possibility the buk was involved. anderson? barbara starr, i appreciate that update. richard quest, i think you re getting new information from klm? klm, yes, the royal dutch airlines, which was a co-chair partner with this flight from malaysian airline, has put out a statement, if i may read it. although not yet officially confirmed by malaysia airlines, it s with great regret that klm has learned about the possible incident with mh17. malaysia airlines from amsterdam to kuala lumpur. we are in contact with the airline. as a precautionary measure, klm, and then it gives a variety of numbers for people if they re in the air and they need more information. again, for family members now, this is going to be just a logistical nightmare, trying to get information. the international organization has very strict guidelines about how our airlines and how countries set up the provision of disaster relief for families. you ve got to practice it. you ve got to be ready. you ve got to have the necessary phone lines. it s a very complicated operation. but in this case, once again, it will fall to malaysia airlines to do it as the state. you re looking at basically the state of airline. you re talking about that s the people who have to do it. who will hold the investigation? normally, anderson, you ll remember, we talk about the state of occurrence, the state of airline, the state of operator, the state of design. so in that situation, we re still looking at malaysia, russia, ukraine as being those involved. and we re told now that we have video from the moment the plane crashed. we are seeing this now for the first time. let s take a look. we ll try to re-rack that just to take another look. it s obviously very far in the distance from where this video was. you tonight actually, as far as we can see it does seem that it came down relatively in one area, or at least the biggest part of it seemed to have come down in one area. well, judging from the amount of flames that we saw at the point of impact, that was a large chunk probably, and that obviously is fuel going up when you get that color of smoke. one s tempted to pause for a moment just to realize the enormity and gravity of what we re looking at in this. the plane would have been fully fueled for the amsterdam to kuala lumpur flight. the missile or whatever hit it clearly didn t destroy it in midair. it was sufficient for the tanks to have hit the ground. do jump in, sir, if there s more that you can add. and for the tanks to have exploded on the ground. but what we re looking at there is and again, the question now, and we have heard our nick paton walsh reporting concerns from ukrainian officials about their ability to actually get to the crash site. this is obviously essential that officials get to the crash site not only to get the black box, to recover any other items, as we saw with the twa flight 800 investigation which again happened, this is the anniversary of that plane crashing. that was a very lengthy investigation where they basically reassembled the aircraft to try to determine exactly what had happened. again, access to this site is going to be essential, and it s not clear at this moment exactly how that will occur. we re going to take a short break. 295 people on board this plane. we have no information about any of them. hard to imagine, obviously, that there could be any survivors from something like this. we re going to take a short break, and our coverage continues in a moment. good afternoon, i m anderson cooper. we are following breaking news right now. the malaysian airlines flight, a boeing 777, has crashed near the border between ukraine and russia. this is graphic video, we want to warn you, showing the aftermath of this crash. these are images we are just starting to get in. we are now getting new pictures of the moment the plane itself crashed in a fiery explosion off on the horizon in this video. malaysian airlines confirming that they lost contact with flight mh17. there you see the impact, the fireball, flames, the presence of fuel obviously still there in the fuselage as richard quest noted a short time ago. this is a plane which would have been loaded up with fuel because of the long flight between amsterdam where the plane took off, was heading toward kuala lumpur in malaysia. a plane carrying 295 people, 280 of them were passengers, 15 crew members. for you, what you re looking at right now is the path the plane itself took after departing amsterdam at 12:30 p.m. local time. as i said, bound for kuala lumpur where it was supposed to arrive the next morning. this is where the plane reportedly went down, an area in eastern ukraine. at this stage in the flight, the plane would have likely been at cruising altitude, some 32,000 or 33,000 feet up. the location and the timing certainly suspect, considering this is an area of extreme conflict right now, ongoing fighting between pro-russian separatists, the government of ukraine and the russian military based on the border there. the ukrainian interior ministry claims this plane was shot down, telling cnn that pro-russian separatists have been, quote, hunting us for weeks using anti-aircraft missiles. but at this stage, both sides are denying responsibility. we do have reporters covering this from every corner of the globe. i want to go first to our jim sciutto. the plane was reportedly shot down by pro-russian separatists on monday. that was at 21,000 feet. this malaysian jet at some 32,000 feet. are we any clearer on who may have shot the plane down? having some problems getting jim. we ll continue to check in. our richard quest is here. again, at this stage, we still don t know exactly who fired this missile, what would the intent of this missile be, this buk system, which is a russian missile system seems to have been what a lot of people in the pentagon are certainly focusing on at this point? if today s events can now be put into two very distinct groups, anderson, you have what has happened and why, the awfulness of the military situation that s led to this, and then you have the aviation side of it, which is why aircraft are in this area, why warnings were given, all these sort of issues, and the tragedy of relatives and the dealing with the disaster and the investigation that falls in. so two very distinct it s almost unique in these, if i can say that, to have these situations where military activity creates civil aviation. of course, there s iran, there s kal, there are all those incidents, but they re few and far between. and when they happen like this, they call the whole aviation spri into question. i m here also with fareed zakaria and lieutenant colonel rick francona, cnn military analyst. obviously there s the human horror of this, and that, of course, is primary in our minds. there s also military implications, political implications, strategic implications. which will largely be determined by who fired this missile and why. absolutely, anderson. if this turns out to be what, frankly, many of us suspect it is, that is a casualty, a terrible casualty of the ukrainian/russian conflict, this is huge because it s even bigger than kal because in this case what appears what might have happened and again, a lot of caveats, but what might have happened is that the russian government has been supporting, training, arming rebels, separatists in ukraine, essentially teaching them how to do this kind of thing. those forces have in the past shot down helicopters of the ukrainian army, cargo planes, as you noted. it would not be difficult to imagine that they thought this was a ukrainian cargo plane because these are poorly trained, ill-equipped. they probably don t have the right kind of radar to figure it out, and they probably don t care. these are not, you know, people following safety precautions. in fact, the separatist group just shortly before this plane went down had bragged about, on this day, bringing down what they said was ukrainian military plane. precisely, which is why, as i say, all the signs suggest that what happened here was that the russian government has had this strategy off training these rogue elements within ukraine to make this kind of trouble for the ukrainian government. this thing went badly awry as a result of that. but frankly, in a perfectly predictable way, when you start using these kinds of forces to do your dirty work for you, something like this is bound to happen because these are not disciplined forces that are under tight command and control from the kremlin. and back to the first point you were making, this produces a major international incident because it points out that what russia has been doing has not only been destabilizing ukraine but destabilizing it on the cheap in a dangerous way largely to preserve a kind of plausible deniability, but now we see the consequences. and we talked to senator john mccain a short time ago in our last hour. he said and he was very cautious about who was behind this but he said if, in fact, this is russia/separatists, that that i mean, it could be a game changer in terms of u.s. involvement bolstering, providing military armaments, weaponry to the ukrainian government in kiev. it would absolutely. it would mean that the united states and presumably europe would be much more involved and invested in helping. i think world opinion will change. but also, however, will make the situation much more tense, much more dangerous. remember, we were trying to move everybody involved to some kind of negotiated solution here where the russians would try to stabilize the ukrainian government because at the end of the day they live right next door to them. i think that s going to be impossible. if you think that relations between russia and washington are going to get tense, imagine the relations between russia and kiev. the ukrainian government and the russian government are not going to sit down for a negotiation tomorrow if again, with a big caveat, if this turns out to be what some signs suggest it is. and lieutenant colonel francona, obviously a lot we still don t know in terms of what sort of a device brought this plane down, but clearly the idea that separatists would have been able to do this without some sort of greater technology from russia or taken from the ukrainian military, it seems impossible. i think if it were if the separatists did get their hands on these systems, a lot of this is starting to make sense now because they would not be plugged into the air traffic control system whereas the russian air defense system is fully integrated into the air traffic control system. they know where civilian airliners are. they know what they re squawking. if this is a rogue element or a group of separatists that got their hands on this high-tech piece of equipment, rolled it out into the field and just turned on the radar and said, that must be ukrainian aircraft and took a shot at it, they would have no trouble knocking it down, but they didn t know what they were shooting at. for those who oppose russia obviously and russia s actions in eastern ukraine, fareed, none of that will really matter that it could be a rogue element. the fact that there are more than 10,000 russian forces on the border, the fact that russia has been on the ground in eastern ukraine, that they have been behind events in eastern ukraine, there will be a lot of fingers pointed at russia in this, whether or not it was russian forces who actually pressed the button. absolutely, anderson, because this has been the distinctive signature of russian policy in this region. that s how they took over crimea. that s how they obviously is an incident if it turns out to be an act of war is going to dramatically escalate the stakes for everyone involved, europe as well as the united states. and andrea, let s check in briefly with someone we both know, retired army four-star general, and nbc news military analyst, general barry mccaffreys in seattle. what strikes you as you have been watching incoming pictures? a couple things, brian. one is, i m sort of astonished at the inability to say anything sensible at all about the situation. one would think the u.s. embassy in the netherlands almost immediately within an hour or so would know whether u.s. passengers are aboard. second comment, obviously this was a mistake shootdown by somebody. nobody wants to bring down a commercial airliner. they re now trying to hide their engagement. third observation, these sa-17 buck missiles, tremendous self-propelled capability, a range out to 40-some-odd kilometers. you can t see an aircraft at 300 feet. so normally engaged by target acquisition radar. if this was the russians, i would hope they would have easily detected a known flight path, iff, an identification, friend or foe. it s hard to imagine the russian military would have done it. so the conclusion is, if it s a shootdown, then it s more likely the very sophisticated equipment the russians are pushing across that border, that would have targeted and brought down by mistake a commercial airliner. finally comment, nobody in his right mind should be flying commercial aircraft in that part of the world. it s just astonishing to me that malaysian airlines is still using that route. andrea mitchell, back to you, briefly. just very briefly, i want explain, the first word has to come from malaysia air who was on the manifest. there were also privacy laws and we know when things like this happen, whenever incidents happen, the state department is not permitted to release names until families are notified. but the first word as to whether the americans would come from the manifest of that plane, that will the rectangle administration of the producer of the aircraft and investigation. thank you. translator: ex extraordinary situation. the search is conducted by the forces of governmental service in donesk region. it s difficult for the wreckage. and the search is also difficult, because of challenges that are supposed by armed terrorists who are there is headquarters in one of the essential buildings of the service. 24 hours. the hotline 247-350. also, you can find information on you can ask request information from the special hotline 101. we thank you all. we can assure you that we will take all necessary measures to resolve and to establish circumstances of this horrible, awful tragedy. and we will keep you updated with our investigations about this tragedy. thank you for your attention. all right. a press conference from ukraine officials. want to go to our jim acosta, getting information from the white house. jim, what are you hearing? reporter: appearannderson, w hearing the president is expected to talk about the plane crash. at the top of his remarks coming up several minutes from now. he s going to be speaking at a previously scheduled event in wilmington, delaware, supposed to be there to talk about infrastructure endeavors being undertaken here at the white house. the other thing we want to point out, anderson, the white house has read out the phone call between president obama and president putin and wanted to highlight something i think is very important. of course, we don t want to draw any conclusions, but it was noted during this phone call by the president to vladimir putin that in the face of extensive evidence that russia is significantly increasing the provision of heavy weapons to separatists of ukraine and russia s failure to take other steps to deescalate the crisis, it was necessary to impose additional sanctions. the president wasn t drawing any conclusions during the phone call. they talked about the plane crash later on in the phone call but it was during the conversation that the president once again restated his grave concerns about what is happening, the u.s. allegations there is a steady flow of arms and fighters across that russian/ukrainian border. anderson? for clarity, the president is expected to speak at the top of the hour? reporter: right now on the schedule at 2:10:00 p.m. eastern time in wilmington, standing in front of the i-495 bridge there, in a serious state of disrepair, going to talk about fixing roads and bridges around the country. this has been the white house message all week. but we understand it s now expected that the president will be talking about the plane crash during those remarks, probably at the top of those remarks, anderson. all right. we ll obviously bring that to our viewers live. i want to check in with chad myers, new information about the flight, the path of this plane took. chad, what are you learning? not the normal flight that this usually takes. we talked to miles o brien, and we can go ahead and talk to richard quest about this. the lines on the map. that s the highway. those are the roads that the plane can take. and we have l-980. that s the plane on that one. typically, though, down here around n-991, or even n-190, just like the highways that you have in america on any roadway, you get numbers. you get names. what happened with this plane is that because what i believe to be a thunderstorm complex down here over the normal flight path, there s that one right there, we talked about that, on 980. it could have been on 991, and a lot of the time, this is now sunday, monday, tuesday, wednesday, most of the flights down here on this n-190. but because of the weather down here, right on top of that n-190, the plane was farther to the north right up here, and that s where the plane finally ended. anderson. chad, we re also getting more information i think from other airlines. i want to check in with rene marsh. what are you hearing? reporter: anderson, perhaps a snapshot we have for you here, just goes to show you the activity within the air space shortly after this crash, which is unfolding. so we want to go to this here. this is from flight aware.com. if you take a look, you can see most of the commercial airlines we do know at this point, these flights are avoiding this area that just simply speaks to the continuing concern of the potential danger of flying over this air space at this hour. we could tell you just about 20 minutes ago, at last look, we saw that there were only three commercial aircraft which were seen flying within this area. two were russian airliners. that was flying north of crimea and a malaysian flight 21 heading to kuala lumpur from paris. but again, if you take a look at these applications here, flightaware.com, just one of them, you can see that there is not heavy traffic within this area where this plane went down. and most likely for good reason. because there is a lot of concern as to what happened and what caused this plane to go down. again, we have been in very close contact with the agencies here. it just goes to show you, information doesn t travel as fast as social media or even the news media, because even here in the united states ntsb doesn t have concrete information they can share with us. we do know, though, if this plane was indeed shot down, the ntsb would not be involved in this investigation. because then it is automatically criminal. that is something for the fbi to take over. so we do know that. we do know what the ntsb s role would look like if this was indeed a criminal activity. but, again, that remains a big question at this point, anderson. it also remains a big question, rene, about the ability to actually investigate this, to actually get to the site. and we re going to talk about that in the upcoming hour with our analysts and richard, just as we are awaiting president obama s comments ten minutes or so from now, still a lot we don t know but the picture is starting to form. it is. on what happened, the picture is starting to form. who investigates it i was just listening to the defense minister from ukraine. he has clearly laid out the case for ukraine investigating this. saying he is putting together the necessary investigation. so the ukrainians are clearly putting a land grab. we will investigate. the only alternative, really, would be that russian authorities would investigate, and that would obviously raise huge questions if there was some sort of russian military involvement at all. in terms of getting access to the site, it s either russian authorities or ukrainian
barking dog and that appears to be what alerted the hostage s captors to what was going on. during the firefight that then followed, u.s. forpdss saw a militant go into the shack where the hostages were being held. it is believed that is when he shot both of the hostages, both of them died as a result of those injuries, as u.s. forces were transporting them away. u.s. intelligence did not know the identity of the other hostage being held with somers. he has since been identified as south african teacher pierre korkie. a char that worked with korkie says he was due to be released today. to discuss this and many of the other top stories for the week, joined by our panel, bring in democratic strategist basil smythe, jr., political consultant and former adviser to mitt romney, cater packer gauge and msnbc correspondent, casey packer hunt. obviously on this hostage story, we are learning the details, obviousiously a heartbreaking story, another report i know in the new york times this morning that apparently the south african who was being held about this american, this charitable group he worked with saying it had reached a dell for his freedom and obviously, that was destroyed by all this, too. another piece in it as well. just goes to show you i think that there was a failed mission a couple of weeks ago. all of these captors that isis has right now, the attempts to get them out, just how difficult it is to get any of these people back. and the obama administration has announced that they are going to review u.s. hostage policy, in part, because they have faced some criticism from the families of the people who have been held hostage and ultimately killed by isis and other groups much the one thing that the americans say they are not gonna change is whether or not they will pay ransom for a hostage and it sounds like from that preliminary reporting from the new york times that the south african group had actually paid a ransom or had been willing to and that he was set to be release and that you know, we didn t know that, the americans didn t know that when they went in. and all these isis stories, so many europeans held, yet these european governments, a lot of them don t admit it publicly, but privately, they pay the ransons and they get their people out. here of in the united states talked about the policy before, from the standpoint, wouldn t want to pay ran as soon as, the issues of the families, hey if the government doesn t want to pay it fine, can t i raise the money, can t i get my kid out, get my sop, my dur out? right. and there are legal issues there as well, but it s hard to tell a family that you cannot do that. it should be noted that as failed missions are not unusual, unfortunately, it goes took at least 1980 a mission in iran to free the hostages. are they changing tactics, not killed hostages before in this way. are they changing their tactic that may suggest we need to as well? if it s a response to isis. i think it does speak to a as the san francisco chronicle reports, minutes before the police disbursed the crowd, several concerts let out downtown, several concert gears waiting to neigh a nearby parking garage were sent running for cover. president obama this morning talking with b.e.t. net workers about this recent unrest in america. as painful as these incidents are, we can t equate what is happening now to what was happening 50 years ago and if you talk to parents, grandpar t grandparents, uncles, they will tell you that, you know, things are better, not good in some cases but better. typically, progress is in steps, it s in increments, you know, you re dealing with something as deeply rooted as racism or bias in any society, you got to have vigilance but recognize that it s going to take some time and you just have to be steady. that full interview, by the way, will air tomorrow night, 6 p.m. on b.e.t. basil, considering the president s role in all of this, the ferguson, decision no to go forward with the case was announced by the grand jury out there now, about two weeks ago, the president was on television within ten minutes. how have you assessed his leadership through this? i do think his leadership has been fine, he has been measured and i know there are some on the left that don t like that and conservatives don t like that s what they would say meddling in local matters. i think he has absolutely struck the right tone. what should be note it had is an be a sect failure of branches of government, particularly the judicial system and i think what what needs to happen going forward is that the president should, i know there is a federal investigation, should address the the actual issue here which are failures in criminal justice. this is going to impact also his nominee, loretta lynch, to the attorney general post. i know that she is gonna get significant questions on how she would go forward on some of these issues, but i think his tone was appropriate. i think he handled it fine. but we are waiting to see what s gonna happen with the federal investigation. loretta lynch angle on this is really interesting, casey, because she is as the u.s. attorney for this district involved in this case now, obviously, if she becomes the attorney general, potentially involved in anything that doj is doing. so, that just means this the decision is made here on whether federal charges had brought against garner is going to intersect with the confirmation politics in the senate. do we have a sense of how that is going to play out? absolutely, steph. i think the one thing that distinguishes ferguson, for example, from the garner case is you saw a remarkable amount of unity coming out of capitol hill saying there maybe a miscarriage of justice in this situation. i think the facts in the ferguson case have been much more sort of muddled and argued over. there are people who feel, you know, strongly that the police officer maybe acted in good faith. i think in this particular case, because of the video and because of the evidence that we had, everyone on capitol hill that i spoke to was pretty shocked that this came down the way it did and i think that while it can it has the potential to throw a wrench into her confirmation process, i think unless something particularly inflammatory happens with the investigation, there s nobody out there yet who is saying that pushing harder on this is gonna cause a problem for her. interesting, too loretta lynch, she political jobs in a way, she knows how to play politics and she has made alliances with people you might not expect, like rudy giuliani, for instance, very supportive. she came into it in a very strong position as well. when she was first announced, there was very little opposition to her, which is gonna help her in the long run. one of the reasons she was picked. let me ask you this, obviously, we have seen some of the initial polling after ferguson and what struck me about the polling after ferguson, we talked about this in the show a little bit yesterday, it really kind of hues to this basic partisan divide we see on almost any question and sort of the predictable groups go republican have one view of it the predictable groups that go democratic have one view.t i hear a lot of republicans saying this bothers me, too. haven t talked to anybody who has seen that video that suspect sort of shocked by what took place and feel like feels like there was just an overwhelming amount of violence in that situation that gives people pause. but not everything is a partisan issue. what there hasn t been a lot of talk about is the media s role in all of. this the fact of the matter is the protesters shall the people talking on either side of it, they don t have all of the information that these grand juries have offered to them. s s a little bit unfair to be second-guessing after the fact, not willing to sit down and look at the evidence the ferguson, we pretty much did get the evidence. we have it available. i m saying i don t think that too many people are actually sitting down and looking at all the evidence. there s a lot of sort of inflammatory reporting, in my opinion, that sort of gins this up and doesn t take the time to look at all the facts that are presented. and i do think that because of the video in the garper situation, it does seem much more clear but again, you still don t have all of the evidence that people are reviewing and poring over. but i do think what is fair and what the media has done very well is put voices on camera that are speaking to the inequities in the system and disparate treatment we are seeing in ferguson and in the eric garner case that tie those things together. look, cliven bundy is out in the west holding off federal marshals with advanced weaponry. he and his friends are standing on bridges with assault rifles pointing at u.s. maher shals but a man selling loose cigarettes gets choked to death and ten people are standing around him and are absolutely doing nothing. so, i don t think the media has inflamed anything. i think it is it is incumbent upon all of us really in situations like this to bring a lot of those voices to the table and say, yes, this is this treatment is disproportionate it is disparate and it s wrong. but the reality is that the criminal justice system, particularly in grand juries, you mentioned that, is where we need to have some real reform. they do not get vetted like trial jurors do and i think that needs change. all right. mo tore get to including some interesting comments from valerie jarrett about members of the obama administration. also, the latest on that rolling stone story about university of virginia and rape allegations. that s next. [ female announcer ] a 3d white smile has the power to captivate. that s why shakira uses. crest 3d white with whitelock technology, removing up to ninety percent of surface stains, and locking out future stains. so your smile always steals the show. crest 3d white. so your smile always steals the show. i i like to think of myself as more of a control. enthusiast. mmm, a perfect 177-degrees. and that s why this road warrior rents from national. i can bypass the counter and go straight to my car. and i don t have to talk to any humans, unless i want to. and i don t. and national lets me choose any car in the aisle. control. it s so, what s the word?. sexy. go national. go like a pro. ensure active heart health. i maximize good stuff, like my potassium and phytosterols which may help lower cholesterol. new ensure active heart health supports your heart and body so you stay active and strong. ensure, take life in. rolling stone s website right now, this morning, click on its apology for that uva rape article it is walking back from, would you find a very different letter posted there than the one the magazine first posted on friday. the magazine made major changes to that original note. the original three-paragraph one stated that rolling stone had misplaced its trust in jackie, the uva student whose claims of being raped are the center piece of the article. the new updated apology letter, the magazine accepts more blame for what happened, saying, these mistakes are on rolling stone , not on jackie. rolling stone editor will dana s mig match chur is missing from the updated apology. so much to this story, rolling stone story, part is how they initially framed it, phrased it, like it was our mistake to trust her. we you know, it s your job as a magazine to fact check everybody. if you re not gonna reach out to the supposed perpetrators of this, that is definitely on you and not her. i m trying to figure out still what exactly went wrong here. is this a magazine that was just they were looking for page views, for clicks, hey, we have got something sensational here is it that? a magazine that sort of had an activist edge to this and they wanted to prove something they already they believed had happened without bothering i m still trying to figure out exactly how something like this happens, in terms of failure on a journalism level, i can t remember something this bad recently? steve, i think for this subject in particular, it s a shame that this has happened in part because it is so hard for so many of these victims to come forward. you have someone, and clearly the woman at the center of this story had something terrible and traumatic happen to her. now the magazine is struggling to figure out which details line up right and which ones don t. that is up to them. every time something like this happens it sets back the overall goal of making sure victims are believed, not written off, stories are true, so much that goes into feel like they can t come forward because they are not going to be believed and i think that, you know this is a major journalistic sin but as will for our community as a whole as people are trying to combat sexual assault. this was a story that i have three nieces that are on colleges campuses today and it was a story when i saw it that i immediately share ready with family members, because it sort of terrifies you. to kasie s point, i think it does setback the ability to get people to come forward. you know, there s a lot of things that are worrisome. i think that when a journalist makes a deal that they are not going to talk to the accused, i think that s a dangerous place to be. i think it s also a dangerous police to be when colleges decide that they are gonna try to handle these things internally and not turn something that s felony immediately over to law enforcement. so all of those things, you know, sort of give you pause about this. part of it, basil, you read how this came together, there was a point apparently in the reporting where jackie didn t want to be part of this in i more, you know what i don t want to go down this road. rolling stone basically strong armed her, no, we are doing this and hey this is running either way, you want to talk to us or not, we are running this either way, that s lot on rolling stone. and i think it specs to your point you hope it doesn t have a chilling effect. if a victim wants to report the story, wants to report what s happened to them, wants to go forward and talk to the police, whether the campus police are handling it or the local pd will be handling it, you don t want a situation where she s being forced to sort of come out and then not have control of the story of the details of the incident after that. and it looks like, you know, and i hope this doesn t happen, i hope that aring the rolling stone apology doesn t sort of cut off the conversation about what happened to her but you certainly don t want a chilling effect going forward. the university of virginia actually in their statement, i think to their credit, said, okay, well, these questions. coming out about this story but, you know what, this is still a conversation we need to have. we still need to be focused on making sure that we limit or end sexual assaults on campus. for a publication like rolling stone , too, what do they do now, a brand name in american journals and rolling stone around forever. each institution has to grapple with this. changing this apology in some ways is a red flag, how you handle this is really if something like this happens, how the s handled and the aftermath says a lot about the institution, what they are committed to. so i m not sure that changing your apology and not mentioning the fact that you changed your apology was yeah, the instincts, too the first apology they ran, it was just so much like trying to push this off, oh, we got fooled, we got hoodwinked here, something like that. that didn t look good either. there s a lot of these cases that occur and clearly, they gravitated toward a particularly inflammatory case because it would sell and it would cause page views and i think that s on the editorial team, you have got something so incendiary that you are, you know, crossing all the its and dotting all theisms, clearly, they didn t do that that was the thing that struck me reading it all the important sort of institutional questions about uv a, its response, the response of colleges to all of this, they are in this arm and there are important things to be raised. almost as if they said, you know what that s not gonna get the page views what is gonna get the page views is the anecdote, we need the anecdote at the top of it, when they get into trouble and raising all the questions. say thanks to, bass the spikele, jr., katie packer gains. kasie will be with us later. and anger over one of president obama s nominees from an unlikely source, his own party. that s next. 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here to discuss is msnbc contributor jared bernstein, who is also a senior fellow at the center of budget and policy pries and was vice president president obama s chief economic adviser and lenore pal dean know, economist and vice president of policy and outreach at the liberal think tank, demost. thank you for joining us. lenore, let me start with you. the case against weiss this is a member of the president s party, campaigned for obama s re-election, done work on the issue of raising taxes on the wealthy to combat inequality, why is that a bad choice for this position? so i think we have to step become and look what the this position actually is. it is somebody at treasury who deals with domestic finance and the implementation of dodd frank, i think two qualifications we need. one is someone who has deep experience with domestic regulation and the other is somebody who is independent from wall street, somebody who is going to be willing to disagree with them and i think that does he have regulatory experience? not that i m aware of. he is a corporate m & a guy. his experience is really in international corporate business mergers and also this $21 million payout he is getting from lazzard to go into public service that really calls into question independence from wall street. okay, jared, that is the case against. what do you make of that? i think both lenore and senator warren make a lot of good points. i think, from my own experience, it really matters a lot who s in the room when you re making economic policy at this level. however, i think they are different rooms, for this. radio, for the undersecretary of domestic finance, i think it s helpful to have someone with the kind of market experience that antonio weiss brings to the table. lenore didn t mention one of the most important parts of the job, that s managing the stock of our national debt, $17 trillion in debt that this undersecretary has to be sure to finance in a way that s highly efficient. if you look at this guy s career, he has spent decades in international markets dealing with global finance. in fact, it s hard for me to realize, and i i would argue that senator warren has failed to really name a person who would be appropriate in this position who doesn t have this kind of market background and experience. jared, is it a concern to you, no experience unless no experience in terms of regulation, no regulatory experience? well, in fact, if you re sitting across the table doing mergers and acquisition and the kinds of advice that lazzard provides to firms, you know a lot about where those skeletons are buried. what really matters in this position, somebody with regulatory ex-peer enwhy, hard pressed to find many in this kind of position who had that kind of experience and that they have the kind of sensibility that senator warren is looking for. and here, i know antonio weiss a little bit and he actually is very much in favor of the kind of rigorous oversight that senator warren and frankly myself think is important. we shouldn t judge him just on the basis of this wall street kind of label that s been attached. lenore is there an argument to be made, i wonder what you make of the argument that because he is so close to wall street, because that s his background, because he knows so closely, so intimately how it works it would put him in position to sort of know the trick, to know, hey if this is the regulation this is the workaround they are going to tray to come up. you want somebody like that, sort of like at the casinos, they hire the guy that knew how to beat the game, beat the house, hire him for security. is there an an analogy there? i think it is about the mix of regulators enough treasury and we know how much that ineffective financial regulation led to the last crisis, i don t know antonio weiss. i m sure s very smart guy and could do a good job. the question is really who would be the best person for this position at this time. do you have so do you have somebody else? jared was thinking i don t. but i think there s a number of other consumer advocates, financial regulatory experts, people who have really been in the sausage making, in and around treasury for a long time who would be great fits for the position. let me make a point about that, steve, you know, it s important to recognize that mr. weiss, as an undersecretary, will be working under the deputy secretary, sarah bloom rasken. this is someone who has a long history of consumer advocacy and someone who senator warren really championed and recognized as really i think the type of regulate they re both lenore and i recognize is important to have up there, that s basically going to be mr. weiss s boss, if he is confirmed, and she will be driving the regulatory train. that makes me feel a little better about. this here is one thing, jerry, my impression from afar watching elizabeth warren in this, also interested in making a statement and having the democratic party make a statement that a democratic party that s had such a close relationship with wall street and wall street that caused so much pain in people s lives the last decade, using this as an opportunity to tell people, you know what, we are looking away from wall street for a change. suspect there an argument to be made for doing it symbolically? it is a great argument. half of my article was completely underscoring that argument. let me tell you something from the inside that i think is very important and really isn t part of that argument. when i worked for the obama administration as an economist and we were trying to craft dodd frank and dealing with the recession and recovery act, the folks on the other side of my progressive/warn/lenore kind of arguments were not necessarily people with wall street experience. i m not going to name names but the folks that i was arguing against often didn t come from wall street. so, you know, that kind of a litmus test may not be really what s warranted here, no pun intended. lenore, final word on this. i think we have to look at what would be the best fit for this position at this time and i don t think antonio weiss is it. all right. to be continued on this one. my thanks to lenore paladino from demoss, jared bernstein, center of budget and policies. appreciate you joining us this morning. thank you. over a decade since the debut of the bush doctrine and this week, we have a preview of the jeb bush doctrine. we will dissect it. that s next. alright, so this tl arthritis lasts 8 hours, but aleve can last 12 hours. and aleve is proven to work better on pain than tylenol arthritis. so why am i still thinking about this? how are you? aleve, proven better on pain. i m there to do the safest job possible - not only for them, but everybody, myself included that lives in the community. i m very proud to do the work that i do and say that i am a lineman for pg&e because it s my hometown. it s a rewarding feeling. jeb bush s biggest liability may be his last name, and that is because of george w. bush, chaos in iraq that dragged down george w. bush s approval rating, the poisonous depths in second term as president and haunted his legacy since. on tuesday, jeb bush, now eyeing a 2016 presidential bid of his own, delivered a 20-minute speech some are describing as the jeb bush doctrine. a meeting of the anti-castro u.s. cuba democracy pac in south florida, bush laid out what he thinks america s role in the world should be. we need to have a policy not of unilateralism, although no option should ever be taken off the table. both our country and our president should never negotiate in advance any kind of consideration, but we need a policy of engagement. even he s gently inched away from his brother, bush reserved his harshest criticism for president obama. our allies don t trust us and our enemies don t fear us. there is no situation worse for stability and peace than that. the iron rule of superpower deterrent is mean it when you say it. so, how much is jeb bush really separating himself from george w. bush s foreign policy legacy? how effective will it be? joining me now is former george w. bush campaign adviser mark mckinnon, now a columnist for the daily beast and co-founder of no labels and msnbc political reporter, kasie hunt, is here with me in the studio. mark, you know this family very well and think of policy and the bushes and i think of george bush senior, the first george bush had a chance to go into baghdad, absolutely wouldn t do it the son absolutely did do it. when you look at jeb bush, which one is easy, the restraint of the father or sort of the let s go in there spirit of the son? well, probably a mix of the two. you know, first of all, when you see a governor giving a major foreign policy speech, that s pretty clear indication that he s running. two i would say that i think people saw this speech and conservatives recognize that s, a, really serious on the policy side and very conservative, he s got his own doctrine, very much focused on central and south america and terrorism there, cyber security, so, he is really, talking about going his own way and forging his own foreign policy, but it s a real flag that s getting sear juice about i mean, does he believe, i was going back and looking at the speech, hard for me to say, but that idea that sort of animated his brother, animated george w. bush s presidency of just this, the power of sort of testimony mock krk k testimony mock krit testimony mock krit tizization, has he learned from thafrom that? jeb bush thinks we should lean forward, lead from in front and words matter. that would be part of the jeb doctrine. i wonder how the republican universe looks at this, aware of the political baggage that comes with the bush name and bush foreign policy tradition, people in the republican party who still believe in it. where is the republican party now, what are they looking for when it comes to foreign policy in a couple things on jeb bush and certainly any candidacy would be cast in late of his brother and iraq. tough think about what s happened since then, namely, president obama and the raise of senator rand paul. and i think hearing from bush, our words need to mean something that is very much a reflection of the republican party s overall thinking on this president, which is he likes to say things, likes to draw red lines. red lines on syria. likes to not follow through. they are looking, i think, for a candidate who is who will push forward with that, we are going to mean what we say. but also, with senator paul there is some significant concern on in those factions of the republican party, whether you want to call them neoconservative, not convince they had would call themselves neoconservative anymore, those particular people concerned about israel. john mccain, lindsey graham. sheldon adeleson a key one, some of big donors, they are looking for somebody who sounds a lot more like jeb bush than rand paul. mark is that one way to maybe interpret this, governors, when delivering foreign policy addresseses that is a pretty clear sign what they are thinking, i agree with that, lack at the con of this speech, telling the types of people in the republican party that kasie was talking about, lack, you re scared of rand paul, i can be the guy who beats rand paul? no question, he has firmly established himself to the right of rand paul and ted cruz, which is a real faction now on foreign policy, so this is really separating himself and also laying down a marker that s very conservative. let s put this in a little bit of broader perspective, a poll that came out last week, the republican field, jeb bush, chris christie, you know, sort of running together near the top there, sometimes they throw mitt romney into these things, too, and mitt romney ends up into the lead. there was a story this week, we can also show this, from business insider this week saying romney met recently his inner circle, some emerged convinced that s running. we have been hearing this off and on, mark mckinnon what do you make of the mitt romney stuff? is this just a great smoke screen? an ego trip by a guy getting a few fremonts of press here? do you think there s any chance he runs? could be our adlai stevenson. i think there is a chance he could. that i saw that as a significant signal this week and in reality, you look at the field and he he thinks he could be the establishment candidate again. and you know, it s also something to be said for having run a couple of tapes, he has got hiss down well, a good candidate, especially in the republican primaries, sitting, having to get out there and deal in the trenches, a lot of candidates. would he if jeb bush wants to run, does jeb bush sort of get right of first refusal, romney run if bush ran or only if bush doesn t? you know, he says he doesn t care what the bush what jeb bush would do. i don t think that s really true. i think if jeb bush gets in, he is going to throw a pretty wide net on the establishment money and support. kasie, i wonder what you make i saw this poll we put up there with bush at 14%, christie, 11%. we think of the bush name, we of the reputation this is the establishment guy this is the one they can all kind of rally around. i m saying, 14% awfully i remember when george w. bush set out in 2000 to run in polls lick this, he was at lick 40%. you re down to 14 now for jeb bush. are we overstating the appetite that s there in the republican party for him? i think that, look, very early polls of the an reflection of name recognition, the bush name is immediately gonna put you should be higher than 14, right? i think what it shows, unlike on the democratic side, hillary is absolutely blowing out the rest of the field there is no one dominant choice for republicans. they have a huge potential field and that s why i think these questions of who s in and who s out are actually going to end up being pretty critical. i would say, his name is there, but what you were talking about as far as who gets the early money, who gets the establishment support, that s gonna sort of say, signal who on that giant long list of candidates, which ones are gonna get squeezed out before they even really have a chance to step forward and to move their number up higher? mark mckinnon, quick one-word answer here, we know he is interested in jeb bush, do you think he runs, yes or no? i think s in. all right. held you to the one-word answer. holding to you that, mark. mark mckinnon, appreciate you joining us from the daily beast. ms in. bc s kasie hunt. thank you for being with us this morning. election night is not over yet, the official final close 33 days later on the other sid of this break. still ahead this morning, our interview with bernie sanders. stay with us. rol. enthusiast. mmm, a perfect 177-degrees. and that s why this road warrior rents from national. i can bypass the counter and go straight to my car. and i don t have to talk to any humans, unless i want to. and i don t. and national lets me choose any car in the aisle. control. it s so, what s the word?. sexy. go national. go like a pro. you know i tried one of those but the roll just disappeared. bounty is 2x more absorbent so one roll lasts longer. bounty. the long lasting picker upper come in and use your starbucks gift card any day through january 5th for a chance to win starbucks for life. i have $40,ney do you have in your pocket right now? $21. could something that small make an impact on something as big as your retirement? i don t think so. well if you start putting that towards your retirement every week and let it grow over time, for twenty to thirty years, that retirement challenge might not seem so big after all. hi. i m new ensure active clear protein drink. clear huh? i m not juice or fancy water. i ve got 8 grams of protein. new ensure active clear protein. 8 grams protein. zero fat. ensure. take life in. my baby drove up in a brand new cadillac. my baby drove up in a brand new cadillac. look here, daddy, i m never coming back. discover the new spirit of cadillac and the best offers of the season. lease this 2015 standard collection ats for around $329 a month. we have breaking election news for, nbc news has now called the 36th and final senate election of the year. louisiana democratic senator mary landrieu has officially now been defeated in her bid a fourth term. this in last night s runoff, she lost by a sound margin. bill cassidy, the republican congressman, 56%, landrieu, only 44% that will make cassidy the 54th republican vote mitch mcconnell s new republican senate majority in january. with landrieu s defeat, there will be no democratic senators left from a deep south state. and our next hour, we are going to explore what happened to the southern democrats taking the deep dive with an assist from our big board. but up first, colonel jack jacobs will get a turn of his own at the big board to help explain what went wrong in that failed hostage rescue in yemen but. enweslplus, wesley clark wi here to explain his analysis. stay with us. i have a cold with terrible chest congestion. better take something. theraflu severe cold doesn t treat chest congestion. really? 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what s supposed to happen there is a lot of planning, meticulous execution and in order to do that, lots and lots of rehearsals but they didn t have the luxury of time here because the expectation was that al qaeda was gonna execute somers so they had to just go with whatever they had. they had a plan and to execute it as quickly as possible, without all the rehearsals that were necessary under normal circumstances. you re in an area over here, the objective is somewhere in south central yemen and you position the assets nearby in the gulf of aden. in this particular case, aboard the uss macon , a ship that typically has lots of rotary winged aircraft, including blackhawks and ospreys like this, tiltrotor aircraft, carry a lot of special operators into the objective area. once you re there, you figure out exactly where you re gonna go, let s say this is the objective, small compound in south central yemen. you don t want to land on top of the objective, cause you lose the element of surprise. instead, you land some distance away where they can t hear you and then infiltrate your force under the cover of darkness, took place after midnight and then attract objective. in this instance, they were alerted there were some people who were awake, they saw the attacking force and as a result, a firefight ensued. once the firefight s over, you secure the objective and then you bring in rotary winged aircraft, like the ospreys and blackhawks in order to evacuate casualties, enemy who are captured, intelligence material, the hostages and so on, you bring them back to the uss macon or a similar ship and then out of the area. this is an extremely difficult operation to pull off and much, much different than a lot of the operations people have in mind using special operations forces. yeah, colonel, on that, what do we have a sense, when talking about going into a place lake this where you re trying to rescue people, trying to get them out alive, what the odds are of success for pulling something like this off. not as good as going in, for example, going in and getting osama bin laden if you re going to attack to kill or capture enemy, oddly, it s much easier to do that than it is to go into an area like this and not only kill or capture the enemy, but be able to isolate the hostages from the enemy and bring the hostages out alive, extremely difficult to do. doesn t succeed nearly as often as the as the attacks to kill and capture the enemy, very, very tough operation. and done with very little warning. so these things, your honor to the unfortunately, don t come out successfully. we haven t learned the details yet, any lessons that jump out to you from the experience in this failed mission that we could learn for future ones? you know, we had the opportunity to do this before and the mission failed. the mission failed, went about a couple of weeks ago to go snatch him but we didn t get him, we didn t get him because the intelligence wasn t up to speed. they had moved somers just a day before we went into the area. we were able to get some other hostage bus not somers and points out how important good intelligence is. overhead satellites, we do a lot of that, eavesdropping on telephone conversations. there s nothing there s nothing that will compete with good intelligence that will contribute to the successful accomplishment of the mission and so, the lesson here is you got to be vigilant. you got to keep on top of the intelligence. any time somebody is moved, you got to know about it and you have to be able to develop intelligence on the ground. extremely difficult to do in a place like this. in other areas like iraq and afghanistan, they built up areas lots easier because we have people on the ground talking to other people on the ground, place like this, extremely difficult to do. so, the lesson here is stay on top of your intelligence. all right, colonel jacobs, the big board used for non-election stuff, very good job, very informative. appreciate that. straight ahead, we will continue this conversation from the perspective of a retired four-star general, former nato supreme commander wesley clark will be here later. and senator bernie sanders joins us with not just the will he or won t he question about running for president but also the why. you won t want to in miss that. stay with us. it s not about how many miles you can get out of the c-max hybrid. it s about how much life you can fit into it. the ford c-max hybrid. with an epa-estimated range of 540 miles on a tank of gas. and all the room you need to enjoy the trip. go stretch out. go further. don t drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. those who have had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. having less pain. it s a great feeling. ask your doctor about lyrica today. it s specific treatment for diabetic nerve pain. is t did the u.s. have any choice? thanks for staying with us this sunday morning. next week at this time, the federal government could be shut down, yet again. we are gonna ask two prominent congressmen, one democrat, one republican, whether a deal can be reached before this friday s deadline. also senator bernie sanders from vermont will be here to talk about his plan to rebuild the middle class and maybe his plans to run in 2016. we begin this hour with the new details emerging this morning about the failed operation to rescue american hostage, luke somers. he and another hostage from south africa were killed in the raid bay the al qaeda militants who had been holding them. nbc s kristen welker joining us live from the north lawn of the white house with the latest. kristen? reporter: steve, good morning. i have been talking to senior administrations officials throughout the weekend and one u.s. official describes the rescue mission as a multiagency whole of government effort. it started overnight on thursday. you will remember that s when have a of luke somers was leased by his al qaeda captors who threatened to kill him on saturday. so, we are talking about yesterday. intelligence officials say that they determined the threat was credible. they believe that somers captors would, in fact, kill him yesterday. they also had credible intelligence about somers whereabouts base olden their part to initially rescue him. you will recall that happened last month, steve. all of that set off a series of meetings from the pentagon, the state department and right here at the white house. on friday, the president s national security team, i am told, recommended unanimously that mr. obama approve the mission. he and secretary of defense chuck hagel, who is, of course, outgoing, gave the green light on friday morning. here is how the mission all went down. on friday night, dozens of navy s.e.a.l.s landed about two miles from their target. the american commandos reached what is being described as a cluster of buildings and this s where somers was being held. once the al qaeda captors realized what was happening though, that s when a gun fight broke out. somers and that south african who you mentioned, pierre korkie, were discovered gravely wounded, apparently shot by their captors. they were airlifted, treated by medics, airlifted to as you navy ship but both ultimately died of their wounds. now the u.s. special forces did kill between six to nine al qaeda captors and i am told at this point, it appears as though no civilians were killed when ask if the white house had second thoughts about the mission, one u.s. official told merck look, the president still feels it was the right decision to try to rescue somers because the intelligence about his location was reliable, he was in that exact location. in a statement yesterday, president obama said the u.s. would spare no effort to use all of its military intelligence and diplomatic capabilities to bring americans home safely wherever they are located. meanwhile, steve, we are also hearing from his friends and his colleagues today in a statement, his stepmother describes somers as a talented photographer with a sensitive for the people and people s lives. i spoke with one of his colleagues who works at pbs news hour but who had spent some time in yemen as well, steve. that person telling me that he just can t believe that this happened to luke somers. that entire community of people who are his friends and his family just in shock this morning. steve? all right, kristen welker live at the white house. thanks for joining us this morning much appreciate that. absolutely. thanks. we are joined nowby retired u.s. army general, wesley clark, former supreme allied commander of nato, former presidential candidate, also author. new book don t wait fort next war. general, welcome, thanks for being with us. so i mean, listening to what kristen just outlined there, it certainly seems, you know, seems like there was no choice but to take a shot at this, the alternative, they were gonna kill him anyway. the same time, you hear about how this went down, basically, the minute that al qaeda realized that there was a rescue attempt being made, they went in and killed him. and it just raises the question, how can you get these hostages out alive if that s what you re facing? sometimes you can get in there with good ingems and you can surprise the enemy and you can get the hostage, sometimes you re not going to succeed. all everyone connected in this operation understood the risks but you re faced with the issue of do you let it happen or do you take action, because it s not only about the life of that hostage. in this case, two hostages, but it s also about how you protect americans going forward. it s about whether you increase the value of americans as targets for terrorist kidnappings or whether you put fear in the hearts of al qaeda and convince them that they will never get away with it. maybe you won t rescue every hostage, but you will never had a team that s holding those hostages that s ever safe and secure. and we will destroy those people who are taking those hostages, time after time, whenever they attempt to do some and that s the united states policy. this is a long, multiyear, maybe multidecade effort in this region. we are gonna see more of this, as long as they continue to take americans hostage. and i hope the united states is gonna be effective in persuading other governments, including governments like the government of south africa, which reportedly paid money to have the other hostage released, not to do that. we have got to work together and we have got to break this al qaeda hostage taking. let me ask you this, i just cause this summer and early fall, we had a spate of stories about isis, isis taking hostages, beheading them, being paid ransoms by some european governments, the united states, the uk refusing to do so. this is a different group this is al qaeda in the arabian peninsula doing this is there do you have a sense that maybe there are other groups like this group, like al qaeda and the arabian peninsula that maybe saw what isis was doing this summer and sort of a copycat thing now? well, it s the way the terrorists can make money. so, if? a tactic that works, then there will be copycat cells all over north africa kand the middle east who will look for americans who were in there for all the right reasons. they will seize them, they will demand payments. they will hold them. so, this is a problem throughout the region, it s not just a single organization, it s the way they make money. the reports from last summer indicated that isis had made millions and millions of dollars from hostage taking. we know this somali pirates in an earlier period were making money off hostage taking and we know we have terrorist cells across north africa and into countries like nigeria with boko haram, who would do this if they could get their hands on the right americans and thought they could pull it off or the right europeans. so, yes this is a threat throughout the region. the other thing is i wonder what you would say, how would you say, from a standpoint of policy, let me put it this way, from a standpoint of policy what you are saying about why we should never pay ransoms, i totally understand, the policy of the united states, but when talking to one of these families has a son, a daughter, who is being held by these groups, and that family is made aware that, hey, if we can just raised 1 million, $2 million, somehow we can come one that money ourselves, we will see our son again and if we don t, we won t. how do you tell that family to resist that urge? well, there s two issues here, one is even if the money s raised, you may or may not get your loved one back, because delivering this money and having the hostage released, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn t, sometimes it s a matter of back and forth communication is the price gets raised. secondly, i think that all the american people and those families know that they want their government to be involved trying to bring these people back to freedom. now, these european governments, south african governments, they don t have the capacities to mount a rescue operation. so, they buy it off. but by buying it off, you re feeding the threat and you re making more likely that other families and other loved ones will suffer the same fate afterwards. so i think in this case, it s one of those terrible things, if you re a family and you ve got a loved one that s going into that area, then i think you have to be aware of the risks and you have to really think again about doing this, because these people are in danger, they are targeted, they are like a walking cash cow for terrorists. so, got to really think hard about whether we want to do that or not. we obviously had the intelligence, sufficient intelligence to find out pretty much exactly where they were being held, the two hostages being held for this mission to begin and apparently, previous effort recently where they had been moved at the last minute which raises the question, a group like al qaedaed in the arabian peninsula, groups like isis, we always talk about our intelligence to find out where they are, how good is their intelligence to know where we are? well, they do have intelligence, you know, and they are getting better and better at it you know, a decade ago when the united states first started, it wasn t that easy for them they didn t understand the technology, the techniques, the hard wake the way we operate, they have gotten better and better at this, yes, you can buy commercial satellite imagery. you can probably buy electronic eavesdropping. you can listen on youtube and hear people talk and report things that perhaps shouldn t be reported. we are getting a tremendous amount of information, let s say, about russian activities in ukraine by simply monitoring youtube and watching what people post on facebook. so, there are ways in which information leaks out, but i d like to think that our ability to protect our own movements and our own intentions is pretty good. and it s able to be controlled and especially when you have an aircraft carrier or an am fab off the coast like this and it s moving. yes, it may have been seen in a port and yes, there may be fishermen out there who can see things and who knows, but we know how to sanitize that area, if we have to. and we can do that. so, i m sure we will be tightening up our own intelligence and counterintelligence procedures after this. all right, retired army general wesley clark, thanks for joining us this morning. thank you. all right, how the holidays are threatening to bring another government shutdown bay the end of this week. we will investigate the why and whether it can be prevented with two people in a position to stop it. that s next. i was just looking at your credit report site. do you guys have identity theft protection? 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republican congressman charlie dent of pennsylvania, democrat bill pascrell of new jersey, both sides of the aisle, they join us now. thanks for joining us. congressman dent, i will start with you on the republican side, how confident are you right now that there will not be a shutdown this week? i am very confident there is not going to be shut down. i thank you a lot of my colleagues learned a regard lesson a little over a year ago and certainly no education to be gained by the second kick of the mule and certainly no wisdom from the third or fourth kick. but to listen to some of the rhetoric coming out of there, it sounds like there s an appetite, especially because this executive action thing, to find some way to undo it through playing with funding for dhs and well there are a handful of members who, you know, i think would take must that direction. but overwhelmingly, think most of the members in the house, you know, want to pass the cromny bus or omnibus or at least move forward, clear the decks now so we can start the new year with a fresh agenda. congressman pascrell, it might come to you as a democrat to provide a critical vote to get this thing passed, if a handful of republican, a dozen of them, a couple dozen of them say, you know, this isn t enough, we don t want to vote for this bill, you re going to need democrats to get it across, this bill, the one we outlined there, something we have to live with? we have to pass the legislation but we don t have to be handmaidens, we don t have to let them vote first and then vote, let them put up their votes, not all of the let it go down and then let it come back or yeah, it s some way it will pass, hopefully by 3:00 thursday afternoon. some way it will pass. but we don t have reasonable members, like charlie kent accident on the other side. charlie dent is not an exception, a lot of good republicans who think and try to resolve their problems. but the majority, i think, are caught up in being pushed by the tea party folks and they have gotten away with it for a couple of years and they are going to continue to do it. i mean, they use this immigration thing as an excuse, if it wasn t immigration, it would be something else. there s no doubt about t. they want the showdown. absolutely, they want a showdown on every situation. and to hold homeland security hostage, charlie, to me, is a pretty particularly in the situation we are going to right now throughout the world, is not the right way to do this. in my opinion. so, if this gets through this week, it means that funding for the whole government is basically good for a year, except funding for the department of homeland security, which would come up again early next year and then your party or would want to fight that all over again then? no, actually, my preference is to pass an omnibus, all 12 you want everything passed? i want it all passed. what they are putting together not 12. i serve on the homeland security committee and i helped draft that bill, a lot of good stuff in there, i don t particularly want to cr that, kick that into the new year because come february or march, we will pass the homeland security at prop preyations bill, i would just assume pass it now, this week. that s my preference, if the votes aren t there bill said s clever guy, bill, he is a friend, look, he is smart, he thinks the republicans, the republicans should put the votes up, 218 before one democrat should vote for it i don t blame them. what i would do but we should but the point is if there aren t the votes for the cromny bus, i would say pass the omnibus. the way it was explained to merck the sort of tea party crowd wants to fight over the immigration executive action and that, hence they want to put dhs funding on the table. but even if you stopped dhs funding, the way this thing is being implemented it would still go forward is that right? pretty much. much of the u.s. citizens immigration service, uscis is funding through fees and they are gonna get their fees, regardless. so, yeah, i don t think it s a particularly good tactic. i think the way that we republicans should respond to the president s executive action on immigration is by passing some immigration bills in the new year. that s what the president wants. and that s exactly what the president s strategy is, charlie and that is you have the senate bill for so long, you didn t do anything. i don t mean you personally, you didn t do it, the president said i m going to do something about tax critical thing. if immigration is broken, this is my response to it and you have time to pass legislation to undo what i m trying to do rather than let s go to court, let sue the president. come on, that s not gonna go any place. well, first, look, the president s executive action, i think he overstepped his authority, even the washington post editorialized this is a sweeping step. that said well, they are not the litmus test of what s legal and not legal here. this is a whole class of people that the president has, you know, has suspended deportations from. i think this is unprecedented. you agree with it though? what if we voted on that tomorrow? what if we voted to do what the president did in executive orderer? would you vote for that? let me tell you what i will do. i will vote on a step-by-step basis for several immigration bills. i don t want to do one big comprehensive bill. i want to do border security, i want to do interior enforcement, e-verify, children, you can accompanied children and i m prepared to have an honest, adult conversation about the 11 million people in this country unlawfully and deal with them in a way that i think will be and you may. you want to deal with them humanelism and i well, congressman that might be with the republicans increasing their majority in the house that sort of piecemeal approach, what goodlatte has been talking about that may be the reality of what they pursue there, do you see any common ground there, okay there under certain circumstances? most of what they might suggest and i haven t seen it in writing about we do this individually, step-by-step, i can agree with. i wish they could have done that with health care, but they didn t, chose not to do that. i think that we are gonna have a long fight over immigration regardless of what happens, whether the president did this last week or not, doesn t matter. i think we are going to have a long fight over. this and i think border security is a ruse. i think if it wasn t that, they would get something else in order to hold up immigration. the system is broken, we need a change and if the chamber of commerce is for it, it can t be so bad, charlie. let me ask but this, we have limited time left, cause we heard this after the 2012 election, if there s one thing the two parties are gonna agree on after this, it s immigration reform. we just finished the 2014 election, didn t happen. by the time the 2016 election comes around, do you think congress will have passed ant president will have signed some comp mean sive form of immigration reform? yes. i believe we will see some progress on immigration reform. i can t say we will pass every piece of it but i think certainly think you will see it on things like border security, e-verify, s.t.e.m. workers and hopefully agricultural workers at the very least, maybe the children. senator a little less confident. my thanks to bill pascrell from new jersey, charlie dent from pennsylvania. appreciate you joining us this morning. a new proposal by president obama to improve policing but will it work? that s next. right strip and pow, it opens your nose up to 38% more. so you can breathe and do the one thing you want to do, sleep. add breathe right to your cold medicine shut your mouth and sleep right. breathe right. and look for the calming scent of new breathe right lavender, in the sleep aisle. last night, police used tear gas to disburperse protesters i berkeley, california. some in the crowd broke windows and looted stores. one of the demands made by protesters in recent weeks, demand made by the family of unarmed teen michael brown who was killed by police officer darren wilson in august and demand has been for police to wear body cameras to capture their interactions with the public. and that idea got a major boost this week from president obama. the president is proposing $75 million in federal spending to help state and local police departments outfit their officers with cameras. i think ferguson laid bare a problem that is not unique to st. louis or that area, and is not unique to our time. and that is a simmering distrust that exists between too many police departments and too many communities of color. i m going to be proposing some new community policing initiatives that will significantly expand funding and training for local law enforcement, including up to 50,000 additional body-worn cameras for law enforcement agencies. obama s proposal follows experiments with body cameras in cities nationwide. new york city the nation s largest police force, started their body cam pilot program this weekend. but then in new york city this week, this also happened, a grand jury dexlined to indict new york city police officer daniel pantaleo in the choke hold death of eric garner, even though garner s death was recorded on camera by a bystander. even after seeing garner held by the throat by police, even after hearing garner cry i can t breathe 11 times, the grand jury still declined to issue an indictment. are body cameras the policy response we need to improve law enforce n this country? joining me to answer that question, baltimore mayor stephanie rollins blake, who spores body cameras but vetoed a city council bill on several concerns, including privacy and with us is former police officer and prosecutor eugene o donnell, professor at john jay college of criminal justice. mare blake, i will start with you. here s what i m interested in. you support cod body cameras and vetoed bill for technical reasons this week. i m curious, we talk in the big picture about body camera, how does this work, in terms of how often do the cameras have to be on? are they on 24/7? does the officer control who turns them on or off? does the public have access to, you know, can we get the recordings from officer charge. ? how will it work, practically speaking? and those are the reasons, those questions that you asked should have been asked by the council before they passed that bill. they have a bill that required the officers to wear the body cams, but they didn t even require that they turn them on. we have to be more thoughtful and thorough if we are going to get this right and we have to answer those questions. tough answer those questions because what happens if a camera is on and a woman calls for a domestic violence complaint? the officer responds, she is battered, she is bruised, what if that becomes public information? we have to deal with those privacy concerns. how would you, as the mare, see it work, practically speaking? well, what i want to do is what we are doing, we have a work group with the aclu, we have lawyers, we have community members, we have law enforcement people that are all looking at these issues and working together to come out with something that works for baltimore. this isn t a cookie cutter approach. this san approach that i believe needs to be led and included the community needs to be included to make sure we get it right, that s what i m doing and looking forward to getting that report next month so we can do the implementation and make sure it works. so, eugene, obviously, law enforcement background, this is now happening in new york city happening elsewhere, what is the reaction of the average cop being told you are wearing a camera now, what do you think about that? i say we have to have an honest conversation about policing, they use force and it s never pretty and they are not automatically protected and they could become averse to involvement. we have a lot of police departments in the country that are basically employment agencies, the cops drive around, they get there late, they don t engage, struggle on 8th street, slow on 10th street. i have serious doubts whether this will be beneficial, keep our equilibrium, issues about brutality, acknowledge cities in the country, minority communities, the communities asking for police to engage not disengage, very concerned about this looks like mayor walsh in boston also has concerns whether this is going to make cops take steps back. you re saying the cop may be pauses, maybe thinks twice, maybe says, it s not necessarily we talk about these dramatic and horrible situations that make the news, but it s more every day stuff that people might might be able to quibble with and say that s little over the line or a little tough, whatever, it is really every day policing? i have to say bluntly, i see some real class issues here in terms of the expectation, the cops are unwise enough to get theseselves into these situations, they don t have, again, automatic protection, every time they engage somebody, they could be indicted that makes their job unique and the idea that we are going to look at a video, ex post facto, when they are in these sometimes life and death situations and say for eight seconds, it was okay, the ninth second was not okay, i think we have to take a step become on that and have a police industrial complex, tasers, tasers selling cameras and they are pushing this stuff. tasers may make the police more violent. no the sure about that. so we have to have some real, honest conversations, probably not a great time to have a full-scale conversation about this. well, mayor, i m curious, just listening to what eugene just said, curious what your response is. i think eugene makes a good point, i think in far too many places around the country, there s a knee jerk reaction, get cameras on police as soon as possible without asking the tough questions and without understanding that this is not a body cameras respect going to solve all of our problems and the eric garner case, there was tape and the community is still concern and the family is still upset and we have protests all throughout the country, not because the camera there wasn t footage of it, but because of the outcome, it s clear that we need a holistic approach, including work that like we are doing in baltimore. i asked the department of justice to come in to help us with our community policing efforts, we have to do better with training. it s clear that cameras are one thing, but it has to include the types of training and the types of engagement that rebuilds the trust that the community and the police need to have with each other. you know, it s important, the people are saying all around the country, when you see these protesters saying something very loud and clear, is do you hear me? do you see me? do i matter? and with proper community policing, that s when we get that right, that we can show the community, yes, they do matter and yes, you know this is a partnership, a true partnership. all right, baltimore mayor stephanie rawlings-blake, former prosecutor, eugene o donnell, thanks for joining us this morning. thanks a lot. senator bernie sanders, our interview with him. and up next, the president s weekend doesn t go exactly as planned. interesting detail there is on the other side of the break. and the legion of super fans. wow! 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progresso! it s ok that your soup tastes like my homemade. it s our slow simmered vegetables and tender white meat chicken. apology accepted. i m watching you soup people. make it progresso or make it yourself we ll have given 50 million dollars over seven years. love. it s what makes a subaru, a subaru. that is mary landrieu, senator mary landrieu from louisiana, addressing her supporters last night in louisiana. we can show you what happened. this is it. this is the final outstanding senate race of 2014. this was the runoff in louisiana, mary landrieu, a three-term democratic incumbent, she was defeated last night by congressman bill cassidy, a republican. bill cassidy will now become the 54th republican in the new senate in january. remember, just two years ago, republicans were left with 45 that means they have gained a total of nine seats in the senate in the 2014 midterms.what s so interesting about these numbers here, in the original election, in the jungle primary a month ago, mary landrieu came in with 42%, in the mons since then, stayed right there climbed a point or two, what happened was there was another republican candidate in that jungle primary and basically, all those votes went to bill cassidy and that s the story of it. mary landrieu loses by 12 points. again, we can see inside the numbers here exactly how this happened. there was no exit poll last night, we can t break this down too exactly. i think we have a pretty good scene what is going on here, look back to 2008, the last time mary landrieu was re-elected, 52% of the vote, got re-elected in 2008. if you look at the white vote in louisiana, these are voters will once, a generation ago two generations ago, all democratic, steadily moving to the republican party in 2008, mary landrieu was still able to get 33% of them. in the jingle primary a month ago when she just got 42%, look at that, she only got 18% of the white vote. looks like she is stuck around that number. again, we don t have actual exit polls from last night, my guess would be she is at or below 20%. when you are a democrat, when you are in the south, when you are at or below 20% of the white vote, you are not going to be winning anymore. that is why we are saying this is a story about mary landrieu, about louisiana, this is a much bigger story about the south and about the evolution of american politics, really over the last 50 years. and what i mean by that is let s look back 50 years ago, 1964, this is the south in 1964. these are the states of the old confedera confederacy, senate representation from those state, every states blue, two democratic senators, they all had two democratic senators, texas had one republican, john tower, the other democrat, a total in the south 50 years ago of 21 democratic senators and just one republican. that s how dominant the democratic party was in the south, the democratic party in the south was defined by conservative whites back then, many african-americans couldn t even vote in the south in 1964. you had the civil rights revolution, the voting rights act, demographics changed in the south. look at this now. 50 years later, after last night, accounting for louisiana now electing another republican senator this is what the south now looks like. you have two democratic senators from virginia. and virginia is a state that demographically is becoming more and more northern, a lot of people from the north moving in. that s one of the reasons it s become so blue and florida, you have a democratic senator, again, florida, another state where the demographics have been changed by northerners moving down, beyond that you don t have a single democratic senator left in the entire south. now louisiana is all republican after last night for the first time since reconstruction, a total of 19 republicans in the south, just three democrats, mary landrieu was the last deep south democrat left in the senate. so it s basically a complete flip from where this country was 50 years ago. that s the bigger story about what happened last night. one other thing we want to note in louisiana, i would be remiss if i did not mention there was a runoff for a congressional seat, you see here edwin edwards, the democrat, losing, not surprising he lost by this much, very republican district but edwin edwards, if you know this name, a throwback politician, think of the days like huey long, the rogue politician, he was the governor of this state, of the state of louisiana four different times, did he time in federal prison. he ran, in fact in 1991, he ran for governor, famous race, his opponent was david duke, the former klan leader, the bumper sticker for edwin edwards says vote fort crook, it s important and he won that race easily. get out of jail a few years ago, 87 years old, figured what do i do with my life, hey, i m in politics run for office. he ran in this election, nobody expected him to win but looks like this might be the end of the line for the political career of edwin edwards. funny story, he was asked last night what are your plans now after you have lost? i m going who emto get some sleep? what are you going to do after that? well, i will wake up and i will have breakfast. so, edwin edwards, very colorful career, looks like it might have come to an end last night, that is the story from louisiana. and up next, that interview we have been talking about all morning with bernie sanders, talk to him about maybe running for president. that s next. right now, you can get a single line with 3 gigs for $65 a month. 3 gigs . is that a lot? that s about.100 app downloads, 45 hours of streaming music, and 6 hours of video playing. 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the answer is yes. i think if the president remains strong and if we can rally the american people to demand the congress start working on the disappearing middle class and the growing gap between the rich and the poor, i think we can implement some important policies. right now the fastest way to create the millions of jobs we desperately need is by rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, our roads, bridges, water systems, rail, et cetera. if we invested $1 trillion over a period of years, we can create 13 million jobs. you know why i m sorry, senator, do you think that level of investment, given everything we have seen from the republican republican house over the last four years, do you think that level of investment or anything approaching it is realistic to come out of the republican congress? well, you re right. i don t think we will get as much as i want or as much as we need. on the other hand, you have conservatives like jim iminoff of the public works committee who does believe in infrastructure as well as other republican senators and members of the house. so i do hope with the president s support that we can begin substantially investing in infrastructure and creating jobs. other area, i think the minimum wage at $7.25 an hour is a starvation wage. i think it has to be raised over a period of time to $15 an hour. but you have people like mitt romney and other republicans talking about raising the minimum wage. you have four conservative states in the last election voting to raise the minimum wage. do i think the republicans are smart enough to know this is an issue they can move on? i do, and i hope we can make progress there as well. as i said, it s something people can look at and say, bernie sanders is exploring a bid for president, a platform to run for president, one of the things people look at is hillary clinton is the big front-runner, everybody acknowledges that on the democratic side right now. when you look at the principle that is you laid out here, the 12 steps you laid out here, realistically, do you believe hillary clinton is in line with you on them or are there differences you see with her potentially? my suggestion is to ask hillary clinton about her views on this. i can t speak for hillary clinton. what i do know is virtually every one of the issues, infrastructure, raising the minimum wage, paid equity, transforming the energy system, demanding and passing legislation, to ask the wealthiest people in the largest corporations of this country to start paying their fair share of taxes. you know what? these are very popular issues that go across the political spectrum. the american people know there s something wrong when the middle class is disappearing and 95% of all new income today goes to the top 1%. so that is an important set of principles that any serious candidate should run on. yeah, and i guess what i wonder about is when i listen to democrats, and this includes hillary clinton, she hasn t said too much specifically, that s sort of by design the last few months, but when i listen to her speak in broad terms of principle, i hear what you just said. pay equity, closing the gap between rich and poor in this country, eliminating economic inequality. i hear that from her and every big name democrat out there. it seems on the core principles, i don t hear much difference between you and most other democrats in washington. so where are the differences that would encourage you to run for president? really? i have spent my entire political career taking on every special interest. that s one thing for somebody to talk about, well, we have to expand the middle class, we have to create jobs, everybody says that. including republicans. i think what you have to look at with the specifics of the program that people are outlining, i will be outlining a very specific program within the next few months. senator, that s what i m asking you there, in terms of when you get beyond the broad strokes rhetoric here, i agree with you, you hear that from everybody, so when you look at the democratic party and the leaders of the democratic party, where are they falling short specifically? well, we need, for example, we are losing $100 billion every single year because corporations are stashing their money, their profits in the caymen islands and bermuda. i m going to bring forward and have brought forward legislation to end that absurd practice. i happen to believe that the united states should not be the only major country on earth that does not guarantee health care to all people to a national health care program. i support a single pay and national health care program. i happen to believe that our current trade policies, nafta, permanent normal trade relations with china are a disaster which have lost us millions of jobs and going abroad to countries. i want to change fundamentally trade policies so companies reinvest in america, not china. are those the issues you hear from a lot of folks? if you do go ahead and run in the democratic primaries, you have to change your party registration to become a democrat. that s something you have not been throughout your political career are. you comfortable potentially making that step? well, that s an issue i m talking, a, i don t know if i m going to run or not. look, steve, if you run a campaign based on the principles i believe in, which is ultimately we don t make change in this country unless we take on the billionaire class, which now has so much economic and political power. in order to do that, you need to run an unprecedented grassroots campaign. are there millions of people who are prepared to stand up and work really, really hard? getting involved in that kind of campaign. you know what? you don t know that, i don t know that. i have to determine that before i make a decision. what you re asking me is i m the longest serving end pindependen the united states congress. if i do pursue the campaign, can i do it in the structural of the democratic party or outside the party? that s a difficult question. i m also trying to get some understanding of where people are coming on that. there are positives and negatives of either approach. and where at this point in terms of your decision, do you have a sense of when you ll have a decision made? i ll make it at the appropriate time. i think people in this country are not necessarily sympathetic to never-ending campaigns. so i think we have some time to do it. on the other hand, obviously, there s a point if you re going to go forward where you have to make a decision. senator bernie sanders, independent, at least for now from vermont. appreciate you taking the time this morning. appreciate that. thank you, steve. all right. bernie sanders, we ll keep an eye out on what he does. we have a few extra seconds at the end of the show, so i want to give a shout-out to a team you have never heard of. the new jersey institute of technology. the hilanders, the only independent team in all of college that went to the university of michigan yesterday. it was their first time ever playing a ranked team. just recently they had a 5 51-losing streak and yesterday they won. congratulations to the hilanders. thank you for joining us this weekend. we ll be back next sunday at 8:00 a.m. coming up next is melissa harris-perry. we ll see you next week on up. mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm here we go, here we go, here we go. fifty omaha set hut losing feeling in my toes nothing beats that new car smell chicken parm you taste so good nationwide is on your side mmm mmm mmm mm mmm mm mmmmmm goodnight. goodnight. for those kept awake by pain. the night is anything but good. introducing new aleve pm. the first to combine a safe sleep aid. plus the 12 hour strength of aleve. for pain relief that can last until the am. now you can have a good night and a. good morning! new aleve pm. for a better am. for most people, earning cash back ends here, at the purchase. but there s a new card in town. introducing the citi® double cash card. it lets you earn cash back when you buy and again as you pay. that s cash back twice. it s cash back with a side of cash back. the citi double cash card. the only card that lets you earn cash back twice on every purchase with 1% when you buy and 1% as you pay . with two ways to earn, it makes a lot of other cards seem one-sided. americans drink 48 billion that s enough plastic bottles to stretch around the earth 230 times. each brita filter can replace 300 of those. clean. clear. brita water. nothing is better. ring ring! .progresso! you soup people have my kids loving vegetables. well vegetables. shh! taste better in our savory broth. vegetables!? 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so because they believe america brought the terror war on its own. the far left is very consistent. it s always america s fault. therefore, anything that weakus. these people drive much of the debate about torture. the cia controversy is similar to the anti-police movement we re seeing. that was ignited by the deaths of michael brown and eric garner. over the weekend there were a few well-planned demonstrations implying that american police and prosecutors do not value the lives of black citizens. in new york city, a college professor was arrested for attacking police. there is the attack. two nypd officers were injured in the melee. the man, eric linsker, teaches at the city college of new york and has been charged with assault on a police officer and insi inciting a riot among other sing it out. mr. jackson is entitled to his opinion. and it would be interesting to see if he can defend it. but a far more serious question is, does new york city mayor bill de blasio distrust his own police department? some police officials are acc e accusiaccus accusing de blasio of that and there s a petition that police officers are demanding the mayor not attend their funeral should they be killed on the job. jesse watters will have more on this intense situation later on. some demonstrators continue to shout hands up, don t shoot. even though 15 out of the 20 eyewitnesss testifying before the grand jury in missouri apparently did not see michael brown with his hands up in a surrender position. 15 out of 20. the protesters continue to put forth that scenario. they do so because they don t like the police. and they want to see the justice system torn down. last week, russell simmons said on this program that blacks selling hard drugs like heroin, cocaine, and meth were not committing violent crimes and should not be incarcerated. of course, that opinion would lead to anarchy in the streets and first world destruction of poor neighborhoods. the anti-police coalition is an interesting mix. comprised of race hustlers like sharpton, radicals like the new black panther party, white radicals like the loopy college professor who knapsacked the policees contained three hammers and a mask. political outliers like the communist party and other tear the system down groups. their numbers aren t large, but they can cause big trouble in the name of justice. which is the last thing these people really want. like the cia, american law enforcement is there to protect the folks. and generally speaking, they do a damn good job of putting their lives on the line. the police certainly make mistakes, but they do not deserve the demonization they re receiving from these protesters and some politicians. talking points believes a backlash is coming and the folks who want to destroy america s defense apparatus will soon be marginalized. let s hope that happens soon because what we are seeing now is hazardous to the health of every american. and that s the memo. next on the rundown, later, watters seeking new york city mayor bill de blasio. back in a moment. nobody told us to expect it. intercourse that s painful due to menopausal changes it s not likely to go away. .on its own. so let s do something about it. premarin vaginal cream can help it provides estrogens to help rebuild vaginal tissue and make intercourse more comfortable. premarin vaginal cream treats vaginal changes due to menopause and moderate-to-severe painful intercourse caused by these changes. don t use it if you ve had unusual bleeding, breast or uterine cancer, blood clots, liver problems, stroke or heart attack, are allergic to any of its ingredients or think you re pregnant. side effects may include headache, pelvic pain, breast pain, vaginal bleeding and vaginitis. estrogens may increase your chances of getting cancer of the uterus, strokes, blood clots or dementia so use it for the shortest time based on goals and risks. estrogen should not be used to prevent heart disease, heart attack, stroke or dementia. ask your doctor about premarin vaginal cream. the mercedes-benz winter event is back, with the perfect vehicle that s just right for you, no matter which list you re on. [ho, ho, ho, ho] lease the 2015 ml 350 for $579 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer. or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells,. you can get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. sfx: blowing sound. does breathing with copd. .weigh you down? don t wait ask your doctor about spiriva handihaler. now our lead story. the anti-police, anti-cia story line. joining us from washington, mary, and juan williams. would you fire the college professor arrested for assault and starting a riot? would fire him? i would fire anybody as long as, you know, their contract terms of employment allowed it that i felt violated, you know, what would be a morals clause or damaged the reputation of the institution that i was leading. and in this case, i would. i don t think that there s any excuse, especially when i heard you say that there were hammers in that bag. yeah. three hammers and a mask. all right. well, that s interesting because i certainly would put him on a leave of absence right away. and if convicted, i would fire him. i would give him the presumption of innocence. so mary can i raise a point with you, though, about your talking points memo? i think when anybody asks questions about excessive force by police or something like that, you know, then all of a sudden there are people who are going to say, oh, you hate the police. i don t think that s the case at all. why? did you not hear the channelcha? people admire the police greatly. we don t want to live in a police state. that led to the revolution. i don t think any sane person thinks they re living in a when you have unarmed people shot in the streets, people are going to raise questions. raising questions are fine. saying that they want dead police officers as these demonstrators did is not fine. that s a small group. by highlighting them, it looks like you re making a political argument rather than dealing with the case. i m reporting the news, juan. mary catherine, what about the police? what about the police samuel l. jackson is speaking about? apparently mr. jackson, multimillionaire, doesn t think he s free or, you know, not free. i was a little surprised at that. yeah, i would disagree with samuel jackson s political argument in his song, possibly with the idea of him singing more songs, but what i do think is that, yes, when people some of this stuff has revealed abuses. the senate report on the cia should not be treated as if it is even handed or comprehensive because it obviously is not. but when there are abuses and when the police go to excess, those things are worthy of protests. here s the thing. you re going to have jerks at a protest. and frankly, the left leaning a protests you might have more defecating on cop cars. same things. hold on. hold on. the left gives them a pass for that. entire movements, the left, media, try to this to them. entire movements should not be discounted i m not discounting anyone. i m reporting what s happening. you said what s going on now is hazardous to the health of every american. yes, to try to manage the they re allowed to assemble and do this. sorry, mary katherine. the goal of the protesters is diminish the power of the cia and undermine the authority of the police. that s the stated goal. the leadership, juan, is al sharpton on the and a bunch of i can t say that about senator feinstein, but a bunch of other very left-wing senators like in colorado who i m trying to bring perspective. this isn t a popular uprising like vietnam or anything like that. that s not that. it s organized by these people i mention ted mentioned. it s targeted by tsh that s where it is. i m listening to you. i have such respect. there are people demonstrating in streets across the country not many. five cities. five cities, juan. no, let me tell you, there are cities all over. maybe major, five. i have to tell you, there are cities all over the country with demonstrations. with regard to the cia and the lake, don t doubt that the american people, we fund the cia greatly. we appreciate their bravery and all that. but it s breaking the law. when you break the law, when you torture people, i think defenders juan, the poll clearly says most of the people back cheney. all right? so you re what do you mean it s not true? that s not true. look at the poll you just cited. 51% would approve of it. 50% said they did or didn t 29% were against it. 20% said they don t have an opinion. it s like 50/50. people are split. that s a spin. that s a spin. it was an easy question, juan. you have to take the law it was an easy question. majority of folks sided with chain. go ahead, mary. this is largely not a politically popular movement. i m maybe a bit more libertarian than most of americans on such issues, especially on surveillance and that kind of thing. many people do think we overstep. you re right this is not a politically popular movement, but there are people who have grievances and there are abuses and excesses. as long as they re legitimate because they re bad apples doesn t mean the fact country need to be traaddressed. if people feel they re not getting good policing or fair shake from people who have power over them, they absolutely should demonstrate. you should tell us why and exactly what. many people are doing that. i m going to leave you with this. if you re going to hold up your hand and say hands up, don t shoot, when 15 eyewitnesss that s symbolism. symbolism. all right. you re right. find another symbol that s accurate, juan, and i might respect it. good debate, you guys. directly ahead, on some liberal college campuses exams are postponed because of ferguson, staten island situation have students so upset. oh. later, watters confronting the mayor of new york city. some police officers believe do not like that. you can use it to track your actual energy use. find rebates that make equipment upgrades more affordable. even develop a customized energy plan for your company. think of it as a way to take more control over your operating costs. and yet another energy saving opportunity from pg&e. find new ways to save energy and money with pg&e s business energy check-up. harvard, columbia, georgetown university students are demanding that their exams be postponed because they say they re traumatized by the situations in ferguson and staten island, new york. with that, student at harvard law school, also went to georgetown undergrad, right? that s right. now, i find this very hard to believe. i really do. is it true? is this true? it s true. the letter that they sent to the dean actually said she was denying them humanity, denying the victims humanity by not delaying exams. it s ludicrous. who sent the letter. a group of harvard students. it was a coalition of about ten of them that sent the letter. and they want to have exams postponed? that s right. because they re traumatized. they can t handle this. they re too emotional at the moment. too emotional. harvard, to they credit, they have not extended exams. columbia has. you had an exam today? i did. eight hours. i could have used a so what s wrong with you, kayleigh, you re not emotionally broken up by this? i m not saying look, it s an absurd situation. let s face it, if you re in school and there s national tragedies all over the place. are they traumatized by isis beheading the americans captured by the terrorists? were they traumatized? did you see a letter written by harvard students an that? i didn t. a cop dies every 58 hours. one week before ferguson, an officer confronted a gunman off duty and was killed. there were no protests. there was not a but it s not the same thing, though. i have to be fair. when you re a police officer, you re trained, you re armed, and you know you re in danger. when you re standing on the street selling loose cigarettes, you re not expecting what happened to him. now, is it his fault that he didn t cooperate with the arrest? yes. do we hold police to a higher standard by not by backing away from situations? garner thing never should have happened. the brown thing, brown attacked the officer i think it s clear beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. that s it. game over. if you physically attacked an officer, the officer has the right to take your life. and that s what happened. so these people with their hands up, don t shoot, that i was referring to don t know what they re talking about. let s get back to these students. harvard law is the best and brightest, supposedly the smartest people in the country get in there. are they that immature that they can t fulfill the responsibilities because of things that happened they don t like? look, they re an isolated group of people leading the protests who i think feel that they don t have the time to study for exams. that being said, there are a group of students who have latched on to that movement and are using it as a they always do that. for their laziness. national review said social justice ate my homework. that s a good motto. how radical is harvard these days? the law school, these are strivers, people who want to be wealthy. they want to take part in the american dream. they want white privilege or black privilege, whatever it may be. they want to make it. i mean, are they very far left, your peers? not at all. having been to oxford, georgetown, and university of miami and harvard, i can say without fail, hesitation, harvard is the most bipartisan campus i ve been on. the federalist society, they re a thriving movement. they may not be as loud as the ferguson protesters but they re there. they re not all loons. this is a ethnic society that s primarily moving this, right? that s right. kayleigh, thanks for coming down from cambridge to talk to us. plenty more ahead as the fact factor moves on. looks like jeb bush is going to run for president. what does a close friend think about that? a hollywood scandal. hackers getting confidential memos that embarrassed stars and executives alike. we hope you stay tuned for those reports. could protect you from cancer? what if one push up could prevent heart disease? one. wishful thinking, right? but there is one step you can take to help prevent another serious disease- pneumococcal pneumonia. one dose of the prevnar 13 ® vaccine can help protect you . from pneumococcal pneumonia, an illness that can cause coughing, chest pain, difficulty breathing, and may even put you in the hospital. prevnar 13 is used in adults 50 and older to help prevent infections from 13 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. you should not receive prevnar 13 if you ve had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. if you have a weakened immune system, you may have a lower response to the vaccine. common side effects were pain, redness, or swelling at the injection site. limited arm movement, fatigue, head ache muscle or joint pain, less appetite, chills, or rash. even if you ve already been vaccinated with another pneumonia vaccine, prevnar 13 ® may help provide additional protection. get this one done. ask your healthcare professional about prevnar 13 ® today. with contour detect technology that flexes in 8 directions for the perfect shave at any angle. go to philips.com/new to save up to $40. innovation and you. philips norelco. i saved more than that in half the time. i unfriend you. that s not how it works. that s not how any of this works. [ male announcer ] 15 minutes for a quote isn t how it works anymore. with esurance, 7 1/2 minutes could save you on car insurance. welcome to the modern world. esurance. backed by allstate. click or call. personal story tonight. jeb bush may run for president. speaking yesterday, the governor said this. i have no clue if i would be a good candidate. i hope i would be. i think i could serve well as president, to be honest with you, but i don t know that either. this now, here in our new york studio, cakarl rove. you know the bush family very well. if governor bush runs, and i believe he will, because he s not the kind of guy that seeks the spotlight. you know, he s not he doesn t like the attention that much. to put himself out like that as he is, there must be a reason. that s like sherlock holmes used to do. there was a reason why he did this on sunday. michael putney, pullney, a longtime south florida broadcaster was retiring. governor bush had a longstanding relationship with him and asked as my final interview, i d like to interview you. i m not certain he was planning on saying these things. he s made some noises, so has his son and things like that. so i m saying he s running for president. am i wrong? i don t know. i do i believe that he is tilting toward running, but looking, working for 41 and 43, i learned something a long time ago. 1977, george h.w. bush said i m not going to make a decision about whether or not i m going to run until after the 1978 election. i want to do everything i can in 77 and 78 to lay the predicate but i m not going to run until after the november 1978 election and we see if jimmy baker gets elected attorney general of texas. he did not make the decision until after the 1978 election. george w. bush said you can go out there, put on your propeller hat, do the things you think are necessary but i m not going to make a decision until after the 1998 election and i ll let you know whether i m running for president. yeah. so when he says there s something about these bush men when they say, i m not running he didn t say i haven t made a decision, i m going to make a decision. he s got to raise money, got to get in there. now, if he runs, some conservatives are not going to like it because of immigration primarily and other things. on balance, he was a good governor in florida. eight years. education, he s very, very good on that. but he s off on immigration and that s going to hurt him. well, it s going to. be something he has to dole with. i thought it was interesting, this interview is incidentally up on the website, wplg, it s worth watching if there s a political junkie. it s sort of like trying to divine what somebody is going to think and do in the future. he does talk about how if he runs it will be about big ideas, about a positive vision, about focus on his ideas rather than on his competition in the primary and he will run in the primary like he s going to run in the general election because he makes an excellent point which i ve long agreed with that if you try and be one thing in the primary and something else in the general election, people are watching and it undermines their confidence in your authenticity. all right. let s, you know, you re a political pinhead. you love all this stuff. most people, they vote on personality. he s different from w and different from his dad. what s the biggest difference between jeb bush and george w. bush? well, jeb, both of there are a lot of similarities. it s hard to pick out differences. one difference would be that jeb bush broke away from texas and moved to florida and he did so in order to create his own image, his own life. he loves florida which is sort of odd for people who don t understand florida, and i readily admit i don t. then, he as governor was a very involved, very as you say on education, a pioneering governor. yeah. he s not as outgoing as his brother. no. he s a more cerebral guy. his brother is flamboyant. his brother has the common touch, more reserved. he speaks better spanish than his brother. heck of a lot better spanish than his brother. okay. now, the bush dynasty may work against bush because people say, look, enough of the bushes. just like hillary clinton. enough with the clintons. right. how big a factor is that going to be? i think it s going to be a substantial factor. i think there are going to be two issues, two questions he s going to have to resolve. does he have a big and positive and optimistic agenda for the future that allows him to keep the focus on what s coming rather than focus on what s behind? second of all, whether or not hillary clinton runs for president. she is the one person who largely erases the issue of do we want to go back and have another re-round of bush? the question is do you want to of course she s going to run for president. what are you doing sitting here telling me maybe look, i think it s a more complex decision than people give her credit for. i think she s likely to run in large part because they have such a thin bench and pressure is going to be enormous for her to run. i m going to tell you right now she s running. you know how i know? i ve got friends in westchester county where she lives and they have seen, they have seen with their own eyes the vans coming into her driveway with the pantsuits. they have more pantsuits, pantsuits for every state, every color, every fabric, every season. all right? you don t start getting that many pantsuits if you re not running. all right. look. i had an interesting experience last week. i wrote a column, it was critical of her i mean, she s been a lousy candidate thus far. you re a republican, of course you re of course i m going to be critical. i get this e-mail late at night from a close supporter, a guy i happen to know saying how dare you do this? we expect you to say unpleasant things about her, keep saying the things. i wrote him back and said, i m happy to have gotten your e-mail, i hope she s surrounded by people like you who say you had a great book tour, your book is terrific, you ve got a great message, you re a fantastic candidate. i said, i want her to be surrounded by people like that who don t speak the truth to her. all right. are you going to resign from fox and run bush s campaign if he goes? no. no. i ve been detailed of keeping track of you. keep track of me. all right. exactly. educate you on politics. don t beget me if she runs business. you have to get with the pantsuit thing. that s the key to it. karl rove, everybody. when we come right back, megyn kelly on a big hollywood scandal caused by hackers. and then watters confronting the mayor of new york city. moments away. i m j-a-n-e and i have copd. i m d-a-v-e and i have copd. i m k-a-t-e and i have copd, but i don t want my breathing problems to get in the way my volunteering. that s why i asked my doctor about b-r-e-o. once-daily breo ellipta helps increase airflow from the lungs for a full 24 hours. and breo helps reduce symptom flare-ups that last several days and require oral steroids, antibiotics, or hospital stay. breo is not for asthma. breo contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma. it is not known if this risk is increased in copd. breo won t replace rescue inhalers for sudden copd symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. breo may increase your risk of pneumonia, thrush, osteoporosis, and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking breo. ask your doctor about b-r-e-o for copd. first prescription free at mybreo.com people, the new york times, variety, hollywood reporter, other outlets. embarrassed sony executives as well. angelina jolie, leonardo dicaprio, president obama got involved. sony is demanding the media stop printing stolen e-mails. the new york times for one says it will not stop. here now is the anchor of the kelly files and immediately after this, megyn, who s an attorney. they hired david boyce, big gun attorney, represented al gore in the 2000 election, to threaten never goes over well right. the media saying all these hacks that you re getting, you better not publicize them or else. we re going after you. is there an else here? he s faking it. those letters are not worth the paper they re printed on. no legal leg to stand on whatsoever. the press has every legal right to use the material though it s stolen. though it s the product of an illegal hack. we had this same conversation in 2008 when sarah palin, when running for vice president, had her personal e-mail hacked and talked about whether news organizations could publish those materials. and i told you back then, when it was a republican who was the victim, that they could do it. i tell you now that it s liberal hollywood executives at the news organizations can do it. i told you in both circumstances, i maintain this as well, the original hacker, of course, can be prosecuted. in palin s case he was. they believe it s north korea. you know, you know, what, sony made a movie that mocks the president of north korea. the plot line is kim jong-un gets assassinated. the north korean intelligence agencies hacked in and embarrassed that s the belief. they deny it, of course. the fbi is in charge of tracking down the hackers. but it s really hard to do that because most of them are overseas and go through a million different myriad ways to get in. even if you get them, it s out there. it s out there. it s out there. you can still send them to jail because the guy who hacked o reilly.com six or seven years ago, two years, he s an akron college student. he got two years. good. he served them. good. he had to make restitution, too. the fbi did a great job, by the way, getting this guy. he was a clown. he wasn t like, you know, the north korean secret service or whatever. right. the e-mails, themselves, basically chronicle executives who send e-mails back and forth disparaging stars. but you and i do that every day, kelly. i mean, we mock people all day long. first of all, we don t employ those stars to make our movies so that s dicier. they re talking about angelina jolie and talking about dicaprio. how despicable he was. that s i guess sort of juicy for the entertainment that s why they re publishing this stuff. the most incendiary stuff they came across so far, the hackers are promising a christmas present, is their conversations about barack obama. these are two liberals who run sony who are barack obama donors. they love him. who are participating in a big fund-raising breakfast for barack obama. before this breakfast they re having an e-mail exchange saying what should i ask him? oh, why don t you ask him to donate money for movies or whether he wants to finance movies? what movies do you think he d be interested in? these two go on to ping-pong back and forth. starring black actors. it s more than immature. that s immature. bernie goldberg, your friend is coming on the kelly file tonight and his argument is going to be those are not racist statements. i think it s immaturity. i think those are racist statements. you do? i m not saying these are racist people. you can make a racist statement without being a racist in your heart. explain to me the joke was, okay, he ll finance another jango. every single one was a black movie. why is that racist? they re taking a 52-year-old man, president of the united states, leader of the free world who has had all of these rich experiences that you and i will never have and you re making fun of them. reducing him to one thing. that is his race. that his interests in the world must only have to do with his skin color. let me get that by definition is racist. when i see someone who hates an ethnic group it doesn t have to be hate. just when i see someone who hates an ethnic group, i say that s a racist. right. when i see someone who makes a foolish, immature, thoughtless jest that wasn t funny, i don t ascribe them that label. i just think it s over the top. i don t agree with you because i think it doesn t have to be fueled by hatred or anger in order for it to be racist. i m not saying they are racist people. from what i ve read, their life work doesn t suggest they are racist people. let s admit these are racist comments and deal with snem. i m saying they re immature. the hypocrisy in the media giving them a pass on these comments and not giving people like donald sterling, not that he deserves he was a lot worse. the other thing we have to ask ourselves before we go is whether this is the kind of society won t to be in where somebody gets their private communications hacked and the media feasts on that s where we are. it s not going to change. shouldn t there be a moment s pause before we jump into that life in 2014 modern day two words. christmas island. no internet. can t get internet there. that s where you should go, kelly. misfit toys? christmas island. there she is, everyone. all right. watter ss on deck. big news in new york city. mayor de blasio wouldn t talk to us, so we sent watters out to him. you ll see it, next. 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possibilities. the connected car by volvo. innovating for you. give the gift of volvo this season and we ll give you your first month s payment on us. extremely dismissive so we put jesse watters on the case. are you a new yorker? yes, sir. where do you live? upper west side. what are you doing down here in the village? i have my shrink in a few minutes. what do you think about de blasio? what do you mean? de blasio. who s de blasio? i don t know what he does but i know his name. he s the mayor. okay. he seems to be doing his job well. i think he s better than previous mayors when it comes to racial issues. why did he inject race into the eric garner situation? because it is about race. it s entirely about race. but eric garner s family member actually said it wasn t about race whatsoever. okay. my wife works for the nypd. was your wife happy that de blasio threw the nypd under the bus? the guy was clearly wrong. i like the way he brings awareness to the shootings that have been happening. if the tea party were out here on the streets shutting down down bridges, would you be okay with that? what do you think de blasio s biggest accomplishments have been so far? i d be hard pressed to say, actually. it s not about like the mayor doing his job, it s about us coming together with him to help him do his job. when it snowed last year, our roads were the last to be plowed. because you re in the rich neighborhood. i think he s better than the previous right wing creeps that we have. do you know who de blasio is? no. he s the mayor. oh. you never heard of him? no. do you live here? no, i live in brooklyn. oh, he s the mayor of brooklyn too. now, de blasio wants to raise taxes. families here in new york have to live within a budget, why can t the new york city government? i think we should pay more taxes. why should we pay more taxes if the city just wastes it on corruption? i de blasio is basically co-mayor with sharpton. he likes to make everything a black and white issue. i ve got nothing against sharpton. do you know who al sharpton is? not really. i envy you. he won t come on the o reilly factor, why not? because it s terrifying. i think bill is the man. i m a big fan of bill s. if you re the mayor, you should be able to sit in the hot seat. he should step up to the plate? maybe he s trying to maintain his mystique. do you think it s going to happen? i doubt he ll change his mind. i m very persuasive. bill o reilly has a question for you. okay. are you his emissary. yes, i am. do you know watters world? i m sorry. i m watters, and this is my world. okay. we ve been trying to book you on our show for weeks. and your staff hasn t been very respectful towards us. i m sure they re very respectful. actually they aren t. i m sure they are. we re just trying to get to know you better. what s the problem? i appreciate the invitation and my staff will follow up. okay. let s take some serious questions. can you help us out, mayor? i ve talked to you, my friend. henry. you haven t responded. will you do the show? henry, just start talking, henry. you need rescuing. thank you very much. i never need rescuing. thank you very much. i need a real question. thank you, henry. who s henry? some reporter. did henry finally say no, he never did. he never said anything. henry was enjoying it. you re lucky you didn t get shot. de blasio s obviously and this is a serious story. he s lost 35-man police department. it s a mutiny. you really believe it s active or passive. everybody thinks he s made the garner situation worse, as a matter of fact. well, when you lose the police department, i mean, that s in this city, 8 million people, you got you re in big trouble. all right. we re going to continue to report on the mayor because i think you ve made a friend. yeah. he ll be looking forward to seeing you next time. sure. the factor tip of the day, drunken santas. the tip moments away. ame e e e nobody told us to expect it. intercourse that s painful 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giving. if you buy a copy of killing t patt patton, you get 50% off any of my other books. if you become a billoreilly.com premium member, you get any two nice gifts for the price of one. also, billoreilly.com christmas store action packed this year. we have great stuff including replicas, you see them there, of america s most important documents suitable for framing. all the money i derive from billoreilly.com goes to charity. now to the mail, race relations have worsened because of identity politics. instead of appealing to all americans, politicians are now clustering certain groups for favor. that is dividing us. lisa, maryland, o reilly, i find it tiresome that you continue to blame the grievance industry for bad race relations. my theory is because president obama s in power blacks feem more empowered to speak about their grievances. perhaps, lisa. blame white americans for keeping blacks down is fallacious. the economic situation for blacks under mr. obama has not improved at all. the message should be that all americans can succeed if they re willing to do the hard work necessary. that is not the message the grievance industry puts out there. chuck, florida, michele bachmann s idea to bomb iran s nuke facilities before they get the bomb is right on. i stand by my comment. glad you were able to explain that bombing iran would be a tad provocative. is her problem of naivete. we may have to bomb them down the road, but not yet. until we prepare the world for the coming storm which will be horrendous. mary henderson, florida. mr. o reilly, i bought three sets of your books, killing patton and killing jesus and gave two pattons to vets as christmas presents. that s very nice of you. killing patton s the number one hardback book in america even outselling grisham and patt patterson. we thank everybody who supported killing patton. the factor tip of the day commercializing christmas, here s the bad news. santa con, an annual display of debauchery in new york city where people dress as santa pub crawl and get blasted out of their minds. that happened over the weekend. no reason for this just a bunch of pinheads raising hell and defaming santa. here s a better christmas story. you hear a lot about commercialism and people dwelling on material things to celebrate the birth of jesus. commercialism is not a bad thing. giving other people gifts is a positive, makes them happy. jesus might like that. although i can t speak for him. also, spending money helps the american economy, which in turn helps the american worker. that s a positive. so the next time you hear someone bemoaning all the commercials, tell them there is an upside if you don t overdo it. now, stossel s on my case about this commercialism and we ll have him in tomorrow in a lively debate. that is it for us tonight. please check out the fox news factor website different from billoreilly.com. also we would like you to spout off about the factor. o reilly@foxnews.com. name and town if you wish to opine. word of the day, do not be garrulous when writing to the factor. in the true spirit of christmas, i think i m going to give mayor de blasio a billoreilly.com premium meu know, mr. mayor, i you d enjoy it. maybe not. thanks for watching.
and putt against leaders of his own party like congressman nancy pelosi and senator warren. liberals are quick to condemn the spending bill calling it a broib for banks and donors. mike emmanuel is live on capitol hill with us. mike, the senate so manies stuck on the extension, they did do something successfully, right? reporter: no question about that. they passed a short- term government funding to buy senators more time. it was scheduled to be quiet today. and there are conversations taking place about cutting the deal on the government extension and we ll so if it pans out. earlier harry reid sounded aggravated. regrettably the republicans pulled the legislation off. and now, we are regulated to watching the time tick away on the clocks. reporter: at this point the senators are in session seven hours and counting, julie? what have they done all day long. a voteramma. and look at the names. murphy to be surgeon general and car lincolman for social security commissioner. and this is getting the ball rolling on the nominees considered for file confirmation in the senate. and conservatives are not backing down. reporter: not at all. we heard from the conservatives slamming on the brakes on the senate. we are going to have a vote in time, on this omnibus bill, but part of that vote critical in that vote should be a vote on president obama s illegal emnasty. the american people have grave concerns on the president s decision with regard to executive amnesty. this actions unprecedented and unsupported by the law. reporter: other republicans want to fight the president on immigration when they feel they have a chance to win when the republicans control the house and senate, julie? thank you, mike. thousands of protestors flooding the streets in new york city. the protestors held signs and chanted as they walked along sixth avenue all to express the rage over the recent grand jury decisions not to indict the police in the deaths of michael brown and eric garner. day long. what was the protest like? julie, we are talking about tens of thousands of protestors and covering dozens of city blocks in manhattan. look at the march from the aerial shot. it started at 2:00 p.m. and went back north and then south. it is the head quarters for the police department. and the protestors shouting hands up don t shoot and black lives matter and racist cops have to go. today is called the national day of resistance specifically in new york. and they are demanding the creation of a office. and firing of nypd police commissioner. and families of victims of unarmed black men killed including ron davis, 17-year-old shot and killed by a white man for playing loud music in a florida gas station. we don t want to lose our family members in vain. we come out and help them protest and make change to america. the nypd said there are no arrest or incidents and organizers planned protest in 50 cities today. this was not only eric guarder and michael brown. organizers say they want more than just reform? they want big reforms or changes to a criminal justice system that is systemically racist. and protestors were also out there for kye gurley who was shot in brooklyn and ta mar rice shot by the officers while holding a toy gun. it body cams are band-aids and they want reform. we can t compete with the violence. we have to talk about changing system. there are good cops, right. but what does it mean that your goodness is in a system that is broken and needs to be fixed. protestors say it is the beginning of more protest yet to come. security in the afghan capitol was tightened as the rash of deadly military attacks grow. the latest assault was carried out by a suicide bomber on boary there was holiday placed on the headstone. and the event is kicking off at a ceremonial wreath laying in the tom of the unknown soldier. right now new developments in the journalist ongoing fight. and will the justice government force james riven to give up a name. and violent storms that swept through the region in los angeles, next. that flexes ins for the perfect shave at any angle. go to philips.com/new to save up to $40. innovation and you. philips norelco. came out of the cupboard. literally. can this mess be conquered by a little bit of dawn ultra? 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[ male announcer ] osteo bi-flex, ready for action. shooter and they believe he has ties to a gang. murphy was picked up after stopping his vehicle at 1 o clock a.m. they found a handgun inside. police are looking for two other suspects on the run and it the shooting took place outside of an alternative high school. and three people were seriously injured including a 16-year-old girl that remains in critical condition tonight. and a new york times reporter will not be forced to identify his source for a book. on the cia s effort to sabstage the nuclear program in iowa ran. the justice department is backing off. but risen could be subpeonaed. and here s more from washington. julie, a federal judge gave the justice department until $ h face jail time. now eric holder decided against that option. risen insisted he would go to jail rather than to reveal his sources and said that the obama administration turned it as a show down. there is no way to conduct investigative reporting without a reporter s privilege and confidential sources and i don t believe you can have a democracy without aggressive reporting and freedom of the press. and justice department officers said jeffrey sterling leaked it to risen in iran in the clinton administration and risen used that information in the 2006 book. sterling s lawyer said if the result of attorney general not issuing a subpoenas and compelling him to reveal the sources that his department of justice fought for all the way to the supreme court, then three year was mr. sterling s life is wasted. and so should journalist like james risen held more accountable or forced to reveal sources. would it put us in harm. tweet me and we ll read the answers in the show. america s best is pausing to remember a milestone in world war ii. it was 70 years ago of the battle of the bulge. and that is from both sides of the atlantic gathered in belgium to honor thousands of heroes. and the ceremony took place in the town nearby where many shops and windows are decorated with american flags. it was 1944 when u.s. soldiers raised a horrific battle in germany. and when it was over 10000 americans were dead and 47000 wounded and led to the nazi surreppeder and the end of world war ii in europe. the battle of the bulge symbolizes the forces of america not to give up in face of adversity. and the international event right strip and pow, it opens your nose up to 38% more. so you can breathe and do the one thing you want to do, sleep. add breathe right to your cold medicine shut your mouth and sleep right. breathe right. and look for the calming scent of new breathe right lavender, in the sleep aisle. we re for an opens you internet for all.sing. we re for creating more innovation and competition. we re for net neutrality protection. now, here s some news you may find even more surprising. we re comcast. the only isp legally bound by full net neutrality rules. disturbing new developments in isis. the terror group shot down an iraqi helicopter north of baghdad. two crew members oneeñ board we killed. syria, this summer, meanwhile brazil, a 26 year old killed for the fun of it. and mostly targeted woman and claimed that he killed a toddler because he feared that the child s cries would attract neighbors. police arrested him. so far his claims check out. and the gaza strip, an explosion rocked the french cultural city in the gaza city. it is one of few diplomatic outpost under hams control. a security guard suffered minor injuries in the crash. and violent clashes in the central region in chile. they are outraged over the amount of fish they can catch. officers responded with teargas and rubber bullets. south africa. nelson mandela walk. the anti- apartheid leader decide december 5th at age 95 today. in the capitol and around the country, americans are marching against the police brutality after high profile grand jury decisions. and violent winds and flying debrie. a tornado touches down in the middle of the day in 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delayed backache or muscle ache. to avoid long term injury, get medical help right away for an erection lasting more than four hours. if you have any sudden decrease or loss in hearing or vision, or any allergic reactions like rash, hives, swelling of the lips, tongue or throat, or difficulty breathing or swallowing, hepatitis c is a serious disease. left untreated, it can lead to liver damage and potentially liver cancer. but you haven t been forgotten. there s never been a better time to rethink your hep c. go to hepchope.com to register for more information. then talk to your doctor about scientific advances that may help you move on from hepatitis c. this is the fox report and time for the top of the news. the senate approving a temporary spending bill to fund the bill through wednesday. law makers are grappling over a 1.1 trilliop spending package last night. and in afghanistan taliban attacks are increasing. two american soldiers among the casulties. a bombing on a bus carrying troops. the taliban warning more violence lies ahead. and millions march here in new york city. a pieceful demonstration today. protestors expressing qh2léoutr over the grand jury decision not to indict the officers. family members of eric guarder calling for change. it started in freedom placea and walked down pennsylvania avenue and held a rally in the steps of the capitol. rich edson was in the thick of it. reporter: thousands, passionate and peaceful and gathered in protest in washington s pennsylvania avenue. the latest after the grand jordeclined to indict police officers in the deaths of black men. they say that congress should take the power to investigate and charge police officer involving deaths from the local officials and grand it to the federal government. washington is going to be silent, they are not part of the solution. we need the laws to bring the change. marchers stopped a few hundred yards away from the capitol where they addressed crowds of thousands more than two hours including the widow of a woman whose husband died in a police choke hold. this follows smaller protest. in some cases they stopped traffic and some wondered why president obama failed to make an appearance. he came to support the protestors. and more fallout for new york cityñm=1@5e=i in the wake of t eric garner case. the police union and urging from attending the officer s funeral. it would insult their sacrifice. and many of new york s finest feel that deblasio has not supporting them. the grand jury decided not to indict the officer. mayor deblasio called the funeral ban deeply disappointing. the first female firefighter killed in philadelphia. joyce craig is a 36-year-old mother of twochlt she died when she was trapped in the basement of a burning home on tuesday. hundreds of firefighters and policemen and family and friends attended the funeral. craig will be promoted to lieutenant. and officials on hawaii are keeping an eye on the lava flow. it has widened 200 yards and advancing to a high. on the bright side, it is creeping through wet vegetation and there is little or low danger of brushfires. evacuation could happen in the nor future. the lavastarted to flow from the hawaii volcano. drought areas in california got what it needed over the past several years. the massive storm is gone, but it is leaving behind death and destruction and residents are scrambling to recover before the next storm hits. will car joins us for the latest. and where is the worst damage? reporter: it was spread out all over in the west coast. two people died in oregon and damage in california. and the number of residents pulled out cell phones and captured breathering parts of the storm. a man videoed the tornado. it is so rare for tornados to be in the l.a. no one was hurt. but according to u.s. tornados.com, it is the first tornado in los angeles since 2004 and had winds of 65- 85 miles per hour. and check out the water spot. a tornado over the water. jason and his girlfriend nina got a great shot south of la yesterday afternoon and saying you could so the funnel come out of the sky. there was right and debris. and mud pilled up ten foot high. and the process, dozens of homes were damaged and ten were red tagged. there was severe flooding and forcing firefighters to perform swift water rescues. will, thank you. and a plan ripped apart in a crash landing and all of the passengers are expected to be okay. our top story as we go across americaning. missouri, four people survive a plane crash yards from a college campus in springfield, the small plane clipped a cell tower just missing rush hour traffic. several homes and a playground. two passengers rushed to the hospital with minor injuries and two others checked out at the scene. the fa an is investigating. illinois,a chaos in a college campus. state and local police responded to a fight at western illinois university. and firing pepper spray when crowds refused to break up. throw people were arrested and two ended up in the hospital. arizona. a rare sight every one of earth s national wonders and this happens when the warm air is trapped inside by the collar air. they have vow once every few years. and in kansas, christmas came early. they went to pick up lay aways to find that their act accounts were paid in full by a secret sant a. he wanted to help out families and holidays. you know, somebody can step in and you not know it. the do gooder asked them to pay it forward with their own acts ofuw kindness. that s the fox watch in america. that is an amazing story. bipartisanship in our nation s capitol, former arrivals bringing the olympics games to washington in 2024. james rosen has more from dc. i am in. i am in. a bipartisan cast starred by the promotional video. the nonprofit is working over time to secure the olympics games. you surely cannot know it. and that purposele strategy. u.s. olympics committee and boston and san francisco. it is a stigma that is associated with a partisanship that defines official washington. bipartisan spirit extends to the top ten. and bofth whom sat down with fox news to explain why they are donating talents to 2024. i don t think there is anything that jim and i agree on except for the dc olympics. as far as partisanship goes. it is bringing everyone together in this town. we think the olympics. there is the most rockable city. and they point to president obama s first inaugural. and it is hosting the the event and benefit on the capitol. and well beyond what visitors spend. look at london in 2012. and they had the olympics as a hub and they can do that for the rest of the city. and if washington prevails in what was jokingly called the primary. it was 2017. and the international olympics committee makes the final selection. in washington, james rosen fox news. warrors on the front line of bull ebola. and police nab a suspect in the disappearance of a texas woman. the experience that led to capture. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. it gave me the power to overcome the urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. some people had seizures while taking chantix. if you have any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of mental health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix or history of seizures. don take chantix if you ve had a serious allergic or skin reaction to it. if you develop these, stop chantix and see your doctor right away as some can be life-threatening. tell your doctor if you have a history of heart or blood vessel problems, or if you develop new or worse symptoms. get medical help right away if you have symptoms of a heart attack or stroke. decrease alcohol use while taking chantix. use caution when driving or operating machinery. common 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disturbing information. children can buy the nicotine equipments legally. there is new proposals for regulations and that has some fuming. reporter: 16 million american children can purchase e- cigarettes according to the estimates from the centers of disease control and prevention. ten states and washington d.c. have yet to ban sales to minors. the a erosolis showed harmful ingredients and the contention that the products emita harmless water vapor is not true. the food and drug administration extended a rule to cover ecigarettes and products have to undergo premarket approval. john boehner sent a letter to(f the health and human secretary impose unnecessary regulatory burdens on the fda and regulated industries. the grandfather date is what will kill thousands of small and medium size businesses. many e- cigarette proponents support banning to minors and prove taps. but at odds over the science and what it said about the potential affects of the vapor. a 24-year-old man faces charges in the disappearance of a texas woman. she was charged for aggravated kidnapping. he was last seen with christina morris. they were two friends from high school. they were spotted walking a parking garage together. the arrest comes as a result of dna samples. and suspect maintains he had nothing to do with her disappearance. ebola fighters are named 2014 person of the year and several gracing the cover of time magazine. and the magazine chose them for tireless acts of courage and mercy. the toll continues to rise. dr. mark seeingle sat down with the herroric that fight. the number of new ebola patients in liberia is down thanks to the coordinated work of the u.s. military and world health organization and cvc and as doctors without borders. we see kids suffering from ebola don t feel well. the nurse from doctors without borders returned from sierra leon. you are wearing the ppu. can tear through your protective equipment. you are unable to carry them. one of the thousands of the directors. and the biggest challenge is that ebola is a moving target. they are in different forms. doctors without borders admitted more than six this happened patients and shipped 1200 tons of equipment to fight the disease. it is the coordination of services that is essential and education and awareness. and virus hunter joseph has been on the front line for months. turning the corner on the epidemic, there are significant changes in awareness. we went from half of the population believing it was not a real disease to a hoax and everyone acknowledging that the disease is real and people are learning how it is transmitted. reporter: the special advisor to sierra leon s healthñ ministry, said the biggest outbreak of ebola taught us that the virus is more of a stomach bug. new knowledge will help to guide treatment. now in the act of shoplifting. but the elderly suspect is not going to jail. how the police officer brought comfort and joy to a family in need. and wall street tutors give us a lesson in giving back to the community. going to help me find it. here we go. woo who, woah, woah, woah. it s out there somewhere spreading the word about america s favorite potatoes: heart healthy idaho potatoes and the american heart association s go red for women campaign. if you see it i hope you ll let us know. always look for the grown in idaho seal. dad,thank you mom for said this oftprotecting my future.you. thank you for being my hero and my dad. military families are uniquely thankful for many things, the legacy of usaa auto insurance could be one of them. if you re a current or former military member or their family, get an auto insurance quote and see why 92% of our members plan to stay for life. you do with comcast business. and often even more. it s reliable. just like kung pao fish. thank you, ping. reliably fast internet starts at $89.95 a month. comcast business. built for business. you don t hear about this every day. an obama police officer buying food for a family when a dprand mother is caughtq@1sshoplifting instefd arresting her for stealing eggs. the officer bought them for her and sent her on her way. the video is going viral. he had been to johnson s home on a separate call and she needed to feed her family. it is not shoplifting tis about the kids. the kids needed food. [8 i am the most blessed pfrn in the world to have people look after me. and not only to protect me but look after me and make sure my family was fed. the donations poured in and they delivered a truck load of food to helen and her family. and the recent years wall street garnered reputation of greedy and cut throat professionals. they are are trying to turn it around with a special problem. they want to change the lives of hundreds of minority kids. lauren green has the story. reporter: washington gets a bad rap. but many in high finance give back to the community with their money and a lot of them donate time and skills. look at xminus y. reporter: by bay he work in the bank. and two evenings after work he helps jordan with math. he discovered something priceless. working with the kids here is a fantastic opportunity. reporter: he works with big financial companies and for a part of the tutoring program for the jewish child s association. kids falling behind in math and english, are paired. many of our kids are of the first+kz ones to gohq# on to co reporter: it is 80 percent of the organization they are not all jewish. it is a principle meaning heal the world. i am so proud of all of you and i know it wouldn t happen without our tutors and so a big round of applause forever our tutors. reporter: v#m]svqq)s say it is about invest nothing the future. kids in new york need help and we have smartest people who work here and they have a lot to offer. reporter: wall street tutors put in long hours making money, the dividends can t be measured. a bank hoping to collect on an outstanding debt and owes one family big- time. bank of america is ordered to hand over $1 million. and the new york times reporter not forced to identify his source. should james risen be forced to reveal sources when it could sabstage our effort to protect our country. our country safe first everything else next. introducing the new philips norelco shaver series 9000 with contour detect technology that flexes in 8 directions for the perfect shave at any angle. go to philips.com/new to save up to $40. innovation and you. philips norelco. feet.tiptoeing. better things than the pain, stiffness, and joint damage of moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. before you and your rheumatologist decide on a biologic, ask if xeljanz is right for you. xeljanz (tofacitinib) is a small pill, not an injection or infusion, for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz can relieve ra symptoms, and help stop further joint damage. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers have happened in patients taking xeljanz. don t start xeljanz if you have any infection, unless ok with your doctor. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz and routinely check certain liver tests. tell your doctor if you have been to a region where fungal infections are common, and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take. one pill, twice daily, xeljanz can reduce ra pain and help stop further joint damage, even without methotrexate. ask about xeljanz. even without methotrexate. if every driver in the u.s. kept here s a qtheir car s you: tires properly inflated, how many gallons of fuel could america save each year? up to 2 billion gallons? 4 billion? 6 billion? the answer is. up to 4 billion gallons. by keeping your tires properly inflated, you can increase your car s fuel economy and reduce its co2 emissions. take the energy quiz round 2. energy lives here. ah, h it. push it. p.push it real good! ow! oooh baby baby.baby baby. if you re salt-n-pepa, you tell people to push it. push it real good. it s what you do. ah. push it. if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. it s what you do. ah. push it. i m pushing. i m pushing it real good! navy victory overarmy final score of 17-1 )f÷ 10. extends navy s winning streak to 13 games. that is the longest in the history of the series that started in 1890. before the midshipmen launched their run. neither one had won more than five in a row. next year they have a middle ground. and headlines before we go. an office holiday party sends 25 people in the hospital. and the catered lunch may have been contaminated with sta ph. they became ill after eating the food. a florida couple wins big in the battle again bank of america. a judge akarded them a million. the couple received 700 calls in a four year period. i wish i could sue the telemarketers. today is 12, 13, 14. i didn t either. no, you didn t. and it is it the subsequential calendar. next 1, 234. and they hope that today s special day will bring them luck. and should journalist james risen be held accountable? and our sisters right no. the leakers should be but it is not the journalist job to be the internal, fairs of the cia. if it saves american lives yes. and it is it a fine line, who
this is not an ordinary time and this is not an ordinary election. we are going to be choosing a president who will set policy for not just four or eight years, but some of the important decisions we have to make at home and around the world to energy and so much else. so there is a lot at stake. it s one of the most consequential elections we had. that s why i tried to put forth specific policies and plans. try to get it off of the personal and put it on to what it is on i want to do as president. that s why i hope people will check on that for themselves. so they can see that yes, i spent 30 years, actually a little more, working to help kids and families and i want to take that experience to the white house and do that every single day. mr. trump? well, i consider her statement about my children to be a very nice compliment. i don t know if it was meant to be a compliment, but i m proud of my children. they have done a wonderful job and they have been wonderful kids. i consider that a compliment. i will say that about hillary. because of that tape. he spoke for 40 minutes and 10 seconds and hillary clinton spoke for 39 minutes and five seconds. almost exactly the same amount of time. you didn t hear a robust emotional apology. from donald trump, did you? the inbox from republicans, that s one of the things they are worried about. that s powerful for hillary clinton to use him saying such vulgar things about women and he didn t say anything aggressively to apologize. he didn t do that behavior and he was pressed by anderson cooper and he said and talks in the tape about assaulting women. he said he didn t do those and he apologized. nowhere near as aggressive as many republicans wanted. he went into the personal attacks of bringing bill clinton into it. i think it will be based on where do you stand from a partisan perspective. what donald trump is doing is getting more engaged and counter punching. throwing mike pence under the bus at a time when mike pence is standing by him is an interesting dynamic and he did say that yes, he took that giant deduction so he wouldn t pay federal income taxes. you can bet that s coming to a tv ad without a doubt. that is true. back to you. let s check in with the panel of experts. i said it was a wash, but feel free to disagree. at the beginning donald trump did the opposite of what i thought he should have done. he said he was embarrassed by this. the videotape. he said it was locker room talk. he did not apologize to the women involved and he kept saying it s words and it wasn t anything more than that. period. end of sentence. so there was nothing more than anything he already said. he had already had the press conference about bill clinton. we knew that story and when asked are you different than at the young age of 59, he said i m not proud of it and i have great respect for people, my family. hillary got him on that because she said you needed to apologize. for the rest of the debate. i think donald trump when he got over that was more disciplined, attacking hillary on the e-mail issue where she is vulnerable. i think in a sense he may have done enough. she seemed a little stilted at times and i think he may have done enough to stop the bleeding and i m not sure minds were changed. so much has occurred over the last 48 hours and the last week that people have to digest all of this including the debate tonight to see where they stand. i want to echo one thing that dana said was the mike pence remark. he is praising a dictator who was trying to interfere with our election, period. whom his running mate said we should stand up to and putin is propping up. that struck a note. here disagrees with him. i m sure you watched the debate as we all did. we commented on the issues. we are not the same policy. give it a broader look. much better counter puncher. i think he did poorly on that he was much more animated and much better counterpuncher i think that he did poorly on that question and he did poorly on the strange syria discussion where he got off on a rant there. which i think will leave a lot of questions and led to the mike pence question. the truth is hillary clinton has her struggles with the same issues she always struggles with, e-mails, speeches. i thought his counterpunch on the lincoln comment was good. at the end of the day, i come to the same conclusion. i think she probably wins at some point and i don t think it changes much. just to set the stage, this has been one of the most disastrous periods for a presidential nominee in the history of the united states. from the first debate and before this debate. did he change that at all? i think he stopped the panic among most of the republicans there who were panicking. at least for now. i thought it was basically a draw which is basically a good thing for donald trump thinking that hillary clinton was going knock him out of this debate and have such a strong performance that there would be no question of where this race stood. i don t think she had that great of a performance. he was odd pacing around and standing over here in some of those shots. i think there ll be a lot of material stylistically, for snl, she counterpunched well on the you ve been there for 30 years what have you been doing and listed all of the things she had done. children s health care, expa expanding health care. veterans and secretary of state and 400 pieces of legislation. that was a good moment for her. she dropped one of the hillary clinton new information things and the alicia machado things. with she talked about trump gobbling up illegal steel from china. to build his buildings. i bet we ll hear more about that. i believe thaefs a news week story about how two out of three buildings that are using the steel that hurts american workers. what d you think? i think the night belonged to donald trump. we re not talking about the trump tape. he was able to pivot away and barely controlled at some point. it was a greatest hits real for the 14 million who voted for him. no hand shake at the out set. bill s infidelities and the e-mail erasure and islam and dishonesty and the media, you will hear a lot about how they reported the role of the moderators in this. i think those who voted for him got everything they wanted in their vote. did he grow? i can t see if there was any outreach. i looked carefully where i thought he could have expanded the base that he already has. not a knockout, but his night on points. where could he have expanded the base? obviously there was a muslim american woman who spoke. there was an african american who wanted the country african american gentleman, james carter who wanted the country to be united would he be devoted to bring us together? where were the opportunities that he didn t take? he could have been more expansive on health care reform and rather than repeal and replace it with what and how and whom it would benefit. he could talk more about the reform he wants in the tax code aside from getting rid of interests for wealthy people. where he always falls down is that he goes on the attack without when a direct question is asked. what would you do about x, y or z, he deflects and goes on the attack that hillary has been here for 30 years and didn t do anything. the way you bring people into the tent is to tell them exactly what you would do for them. like taxes and health care, i still do not think that we got much beyond obamacare is a disaster and why didn t she fix the tax code? and by the way, i think we might have heard him admit, i m not sure about this, that he did use on the $918 million debt, that he actually used that not to pay taxes. he did say. he didn t say how long but he did say he use it. i think the trump teams thinks they are reaching out to suburban, white women and college-educated women when they talk about african-americans and hispanics, he hurts his case because of his record and the way he talks about african-americans and the way that he tends to say the african-americans and not just african-americans, which is a way of referring to folks in deeply odd. i think they are doing that but i don t think there s any success in growing that tent. the real question is, they fear he doesn t have the right temperament or command, were they assured tonight or think of him differently as a result of this performance? i agree with michael, he was speaking to the base and i think the base is probably very happy. the base is just not big enough to win the election. the demographics of the country are such i m sorry to hit this point again, george herbert walker bush and mitt romney got the same percentage of the white vote. 59%, what earned bush 136 electoral votes got mitt romney only 56. and there is the changing demographic of the country and that s why the missed opportunity was with the muslim woman and the african american man at the end. that was magnanimous. where he s doing poorly, he needs to improve significantly, has to do with college educated white voters. he s even with college educated white men. health care and their families. there was a poll out today in your home state and your home state that had him leading among college educated voters, white voters by 20 points. this is a cohert that romney carried by 14% in 2012. that s a stunning tolerance, right? they think he s a bigot. right. that s why you hear hillary clinton, all of her ads, are about donald trump and what he said and those words, whether it s about women, whether it s about the birther controversy, those things turn off college-educated white voters. he can t undo that because he spent so much time branding himself in that way as this kind of unreconstructed alpha male and the tape only underscores that. let me say one thing about the tape. we re all talking about the debate and that s going to be our focus until 1:00 in the morning. tomorrow morning we wake up in a world where the debate is over. we re not talking about it. we re talking about something else. i can t help but think the clinton campaign is going to make sure that that tape is everywhere from now until the election. it s about the image of the women from this point forward. four women and donald trump and that story s going to get told. college educated white women that we ve been talking about. can i just make one other point in which is it s very clear they don t like each other very much. it was kind of an irritating debate in that sense because they were firing these jibes back and forth. and what was missing from it was any invocation of people, humanity. we re in a town hall meeting. the only person that was raised i think hillary clinton raised an individual and just as in the last debate she raised an individual to weap weaponize that story against donald trump but the day-to-day struggle. health care, nobody mentioned anybody who was actually struggling with health care. i was surprised by that. let s go back to the tape. i want to play donald trump s response when the subject of this access hollywood tape, him talking very crudely about women, seeming to boast about grabbing women, assaulting women inappropriately. here was his response. you called what you said locker room banter. you described kissing women without their consent, grabbing their genitals. that is sexual assault. you bragged you sexually assaulted women. do you understand that? no, i didn t say that at all. i don t think you understood what was said. this was locker room talk. i m not proud of it. i apologized to my family. i apologize to the american people. certainly i m not proud of it. but this is locker room talk. you know, when we have a world where you have isis chopping off heads, where you have and frankly drowning people in steel cages, where you have wars and horrible, horrible sights all over, where you have so many bad things happening, this is like medieval times. we haven t seen anything like this, the carnage all over the world, and they look and they see. can you imagine the people that are frankly doing so well against us with isis and they look at our country and they see what s going on. yes, i m very embarrassed by it. i hate it. but it s locker room talk and it s one of those things. i will knock the hell out of isis. we re going to defeat isis. isis happened a number of years ago in a vacuum that was left so because of bad judgment. and i will tell you, i will take care of isis. so the basic response there, van, it was locker room talk but nothing compared to the horrors of isis and i m going to stop isis. i just thought that was just horrible. he rather than apologizing he minimized. and that was something that everybody here agreed he should avoid doing. and basically, if the only thing you have to say about yourself is i m not as bad as isis, i mean, that s your defense, there s something wrong with that kind of response. [ cheers and applause ] the other thing is that you cannot underestimate the history that was made in our country. a line was crossed that i don t know has been crossed in my lifetime, maybe ever. he threatened to jail his opponent. right. he threatened to jail hillary clinton if he became president of the united states. that is something i think is a new low in american democracy. but i will say something maybe provocative. i think hillary won because donald trump kind of won. in other words, the worst possible outcome for hillary clinton could have been if she knocked him out. if she had knocked him out and forced him out of the race, you could have been in a situation where the republican party could rally, get somebody else in there. it was actually a good outcome for her. she did well enough. he did well enough. he stabilized himself. and he s going to bleed out. and she s going to be able to get across the finish line. i m not sure we watched the same debate because read the transcript. donald trump issued three more apologies. he s now up to issuing five. that s enough for most of the american people. i m still waiting on the media to call on the apology for hillary clinton lying to the families of benghazi members when she told them their families were dead because of a video. i m still waiting for a call for that apology. but i think something very big happened tonight that is lost upon most of us. what we saw tonight was someone speak for the people against the washington elite. there are people in this country, 2/3 of the country thinks we re in the wrong direction. they re tired of being promised hope and change, which is what president obama promised millennialed, promised the american people and it did not materialize. and you saw donald trump flawlessly expose the double standards of justice when he said when he said if someone, an american citizen had done 1/5 of what you had done with your e-mails their lives would have been destroyed. and there was an audible boo from the audience because people know hillary clinton lied when she retorted with the fact that i didn t do anything wrong with my e-mails. the audience booed because there are two standards. the washington elite get one and we the american people get another. i think that was explosive. i think the audience had trump supporters and clinton supporters and we heard both sides. but let me go into let me play some of what you re talking about and specifically, van jones, it s the moment you that referred to where he said that were he in charge of the laws she would be in jail. i didn t think i d say this but i m going to say it. and i hate to say it. but if i win, i am going to instruct my attorney general to get a special prosecutor to look into your situation because there has never been so many lies, so much deception. there has never been anything like it. and we re going to have a special prosecutor. when i speak, i go out and speak, the people of this country are furious. in my opinion, the people that have been long-term workers at the fbi are furious. there has never been anything like this where e-mails and you get a subpoena. you get a subpoena and after getting the subpoena you delete 33,000 e-mails. and then you acid wash them. or bleach them as you say. a very expensive process. so we re going to get a special prosecutor and we re going to look into it. because you know what? people have been their lives have been destroyed for doing 1/5 of what you ve done. and it s a disgrace. and honestly, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. secretary clinton everything he just said is absolutely false but i m not surpris surprised. i told people that it would be impossible to be fact-checking donald all the time. i d never get to talk about anything i want to do and how we re going to really make lives better for people. so once again, go to hillaryclinton.com. we have literally trump. you can fact-check him in real-time. it s just awfully good that someone with the temperament of donald trump is not in charge of the law in our country. because you d be in jail. secretary clinton [ cheers ] so jeffrey, i heard you laughing. obviously that is a crowd pleaser for trump supporters. there s no question about that. he already has trump supporters. they already support him. is that the kind of line that exemplifies the kind of temperament that those who are undecided want to hear from him? yes. and i ll tell you why. this is about as kayleigh was saying, this is about the american people versus the political class in this country. media elites, politicians, et cetera, who as he said repeatedly there, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and they never get anything done and they lie and they dissemble. and she would in fact, if she were not hillary clinton, she would be in huge trouble with these e-mails. and she would conceivably be going to jail. i mean, other people have gone to jail for these kind of problems. so what he s doing there is hitting the broad themes, one, the division between the american people and the political class. two, her character. if you remember that famous quinnipiac poll from last year where they asked people to free-associate one-word descriptions of the candidates and for her it was dishonest and liar. you know that s kind of a bogus poll where they i mean, i think the biggest ones for trump were unflattering as well. but i take your point on the fact that she has very, very low trustworthy and honesty numbers so he was hitting this. okay, paul. the strategic context in which this debate occurs is the trump campaign in meltdown. a meltdown especially with women because of this really horrific tape where he brags about committing sexual assault. i don t think he put it to bed. you keep hearing stories that there s more tapes to come. the guy did 10 or 14 years on television and people keep saying we re going to go through these tapes. maybe they will. maybe they won t. but he certainly did nothing to put it behind him or even to inoculate against the stories to come. now, tonight s audience, i bet you a nickel, would be much more female than male. first off more voters are female than male. but tonight we re up against qupt sunday night football. packers by the way 17-9 over the giants leading right now fourth quarter. the performance he put on, first being so bizarre about this sexual assault. in one of the answers he mentioned isis, immigration, and the economy. in one of the follow-ups he rambled on about michelle obama, sidney blumenthal, debbie wasserman schultz, bernie sanders, e-mails. that doesn t assuage any women voters. and then the style throughout the debate i kept hearing from a lot of women, they didn t like that the pacing, the stalking. yeah. the really kind of creepy behavior when he wasn t speaking. toward hillary. last time it was he got in trouble for interrupting. he did a fair amount of that again. he seemed to actually pick a lot of unwise fights with martha raddatz also. less so with anderson. this is not if i m as a super pac guy, i work for the super pac that s opposing trump and is supporting hillary. i m happy about this. if i were a trump strategist i d say boss, we ve got a problem with women and you just made it worse. we re going to keep it there. everyone stay. we ve still got two hours. wolf, let me throw it back to you. anderson anderson. jake, thanks very much. we ve got an excellent moment right now to discuss something i d never heard in any of these debates before between two presidential candidates. and dana, let s talk a little about this. one candidate says not only is he going to put forward a special prosecutor to investigate his rival but, and this is very significant, he s going to put her in jail if he s elected president of the united states. that s pretty extraordinary. okay. not to sound too corny, but what makes this country different from countries with dictators in africa or stalin or hitler or any of those countries with dictators and totalitarian leaders is that when they took over they put their opponents in jail. to hear one presidential candidate say, even if it was a flip comment, which it was, you re going to be in jail to another presidential candidate on the debate stage in the united states of america, stunning. just stunning. certainly is. john king. most of his strategy on these issues was clearly designed, a, listening to his alt-right advisers. this was a breitbart strategy from the predebate and the debate. if he s bleeding across the electorate, if his goal priority one is to stop the bleeding on the right, then it may have succeeded in that. if you look at state by state, if you look at the battleground states, if you look at the demographic breakdowns in the states he is losing now heading into the last 30 days. remember, the timing of this is critical. in the last 30 days there are some people already voting. more people will start voting this week. even more will start voting after that. many in the most important battleground states. 30% of the american people last tight voted early. that will probably be a little higher this time. so the election is not on november 8th. it is now for many people in the states that matter. and if donald trump needed to shore up his conservative base, his team is very happy. he was much modern gauged than he was tonight. he was much more aggressive. he did more counterpunching. he got to some of the issues that he believes are her weaknesses but to dana s point there is that going to win you the vote of a moderate woman in the philadelphia sbushds? i think not. is it going to get you raves on zruj and breitbart and the conservative media and the other network, we all know who i m talking about, most likely. but at least he ll stop the bleeding among his own base. yes. i think that is a fair assessment that you can see in the mood and even the republicans who don t like trump. they think this is the worst possible outcome because they thought if he tanked tonight there would be pressure to get him out of the race. exactly. and now they re saying he did well enough to stay in. they don t think he can win and they think he hurts other senate and house candidates. but they think he did well enough to sustain himself without a doubt and i know that s what they think inside team trump. without a doubt they think they had a strong night. we re just hearing that eric holder apparently just said that trump s threat was like nixonian. not so much the jail threat but the threat that if he becomes president he s going to instruct his attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor. it s first of all, i believe it s kind of a misunderstanding of what is even allowed and the way that the process works. but even so, putting that aside, just the threat is something that is going to this is something that s going to have ripple effects in the days to come. i also think another giant question tonight, again, people view these things through their partisan prism but we know that hillary clinton has barack obama, michelle obama, bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, joe biden, bill clinton. donald trump has mike pence. there are no other senior republicans out there. and he threw mike pence under the bus tonight. he threw his running mate under the bus tonight, who has stood by him mike pence did not defend donald trump on the specifics in the vice presidential debate. i was told that got under donald trump s skin a little bit. mike pence did stand by him this weekend. mike pence, a christian conservative whose wife i m told was horrified when she heard that tape and who talked to her husband about it, mike pence did stand by donald trump even though he did say the language is offensive. dysfunction in the campaign in the last 30 days is dangerous. he just did put out a tweet mike, pence that s what i was looking for. going ahead and endorsing congrats to my running mate @realdonaldtrump on a big debate win. proud to stand with you as we make #make america great again. brianna keilar you ve got a special guest in the spin room. i have hillary clinton s campaign chair john podesta. and i want to get your reaction to something first. donald trump called hillary clinton the devil but he also made a threat that if he were in charge of the laws of the country that he would jail her, he would imprison her. what is the campaign s reaction? well, it s one more over-the-top statement by donald trump. and fortunately, he s not in charge of the laws of the united states and never will be. but i think that maybe he was trying to appeal to his base. what we ve seen over the last few weeks and particularly over the last few days are republicans peeling off him in droves. so maybe all he s got left is his base. so to call her the devil is i think beneath a presidential candidate. it s one more reason yes he doesn t have the temperament to do the job of being president or being the commander in chief. the optics from the beginning of the debate were that we sea chelsea clinton not there to shake the hands of melania trump and her kids as we saw during the first debate. and then hillary clinton did not shake hands with donald trump at the beginning of the debate. that s a very clear signal she was trying to send. well, look, i think he came in here sort of pulling this stunt that he did at the beginning of this and was on the attack from the beginning. again, i think maybe he was just trying to stabilize his own base of voters even as that s shrinking. but i think that given what we saw, what we saw on the videotape, what we re seeing now in the howard stern tapes, his she s trying to signal something. she s trying to signal that she that his behavior is doesn t really deserve the respect of a handshake at the beginning. she did shake his hand at the end. but i think that, you know, he came in tonight and even walked back whatever bit of an apology he gave for the access hollywood tape that every american now has probably seen over and over again. i know that one of the strategies coming into this was thinking that after that tape came out there were people who were newly open to hillary clinton. but the assessment seems to be that she really just rallied the base and whether or not she has really expanded it seems that she and donald trump just rallied their base. what do you say to that? i think she came in trying to answer the specific questions. this was supposed to be i think in my mind a town hall where voters got to ask specific questions. the moderators asked a lot of the questions tonight. but the voters did get to ask questions. and i think she wanted to talk about the specific ideas, the specific plans, what she s been able to do in a bipartisan way when she was first lady, when she was senator, the children s health insurance program, the other program she talked about. but most importantly what she wanted to do to build an economy that was going to work for everyone, not just those at the top. so if n. doing that i think what she wanted to try to accomplish was to say i want to be a president for everyone and i want to have you listen to me with a positive message, an optimistic view of what america can be. in contrast i think he was dark and divisive again. john podesta with the clinton campaign. thank you so much. back to you guys. all right. thanks very much, brianna keilar. let s play a clip. this is donald trump speaking about the former president of the united states, bill clinton. i told you, that was locker room talk. i m not proud of it. i am a person who has great respect for people, for my family, for the people of this country. and certainly i m not proud of it. but that was something that happened if you look at bill clinton, far worse. mine are words and his was action. his was what he s done to women. there s never been anybody in the history of politics in this nation that s been so abusive to women. so you can say any way you want to say it, but bill clinton was abusive to women. hillary clinton attacked those same women. and attacked them viciously. four of them are here tonight. one of the women, who is a wonderful woman, at 12 years old was raped at 12. her client, she represented, got him off. and she s seen laughing on two separate occasions, laughing at the girl who was raped. kathy shelton, that young woman, is here with us tonight. so don t tell me about words. absolutely i apologize for those words. but it is things that people say. but what president clinton did, he was impeached. he lost his license to practice law. he had to pay an $850,000 fine to one of the women, paula jones, who s also here tonight. and i will tell you that when hillary brings up a point like that and she talks about words that i said 11 years ago i think it s disgraceful and i think she should be ashamed of herself if you want to know the truth. he gets to run his campaign any way he chooses. he gets it decide what he wants to talk about. instead of answering people s questions, talking about our agenda, laying out the plans that we have that we think can make a better life and a better country, that s his choice. when i hear something like that, i am reminded of what my friend michelle obama advised us all. when they go low, you go high. [ cheers and applause ] she got some applause for that line but i didn t hear a robust vote of confidence, a defense of her husband in that response, because he really went after bill clinton. hillary clinton didn t mention bill clinton s behavior or actions at all. she didn t defend her actions at all. she just went after more or less donald trump essentially saying you re trying to go back and we re talking about you here. a couple of points on that. donald trump clearly tried to gin up support on the r50i9d right with his base. if you talk to conservatives, especially the all the rooilt conservative media they think these issues have been ignored or forgotten. you and i covered the white house at the time. the paula jones case, kathleen willey case, monica lewinsky impeachment that dominated our lives. i had color in my hair when that started. that was several years of our lives. they think we should still be talking about this later. and trump was trying to connect hillary clinton to that. will that be a winning strategy in the general election? we ll see how it plays out. but clearly donald trump came here tonight saying when i m asked about me i m going to deflect to bill clinton. i do think it helped him rally conservatives. i also know from e-mail conversations with clinton campaign people anderson cooper said this is sexual assault. and what donald trump he said he didn t do it. he said he was just talking about it. he did say tonight which he did not say in that weekend night video-e didn t address whether or not it actually happened. he just said he was sorry. donald trump did say he never did those things. so he was bragging about sexually assaulting women. and he said no, it s locker room talk. the clinton people that s going to be in an ad probably by the time we get to the end of this week. with anderson cooper asking a direct question and donald trump saying it s locker room talk. it s not locker room talk. it is not locker room talk to whether you re fantasizing about it speculating about it or talking about it of groping people, sexually assaulting people. that s a crime. but i will just say, and probably getting similar notes from republicans, i just got one from a top republican who s very skittish about donald trump saying that he did okay acknowledging the bar this is among republicans. that the bar is pretty low right now for him to kind of bring some of them back into the fold but that in the words of this republican he moved the conversation beyond the caught on tape hot mike situation. on the flip side of that i ve been hearing from some democrats who think that hillary clinton did well but wondering why didn t she put it away, wondering what could she have done differently to after the weekend that donald trump just had to just end it. just completely end his candidacy. and that she possibly could have with this debate but didn t. but you think that s in part the result of an hour before the debate he invites these women no. to come here not only to do a little joint photo opportunity with him but then to sit in the front row you mean whether she was rattled? yeah. i mean, i don t know. i didn t get the sense that she really changed her strategy much at all. that she was going to do what she was going to do. she clearly was ready for bill clinton s name to come up in the context of these women or in any other context. and he she made the decision she wasn t going to go there. she was going to instead hit all the demographics that she thinks that donald trump has offended, whether it s the disabled or the hispanics or muslims and so forth and she was just going to pretend like the bill clinton question didn t happen. she s trying to keep what she s got. she d she s ahead right now. she s head in the moltum in the last ten days and we don t know about the weekend. we don t know how that will be processed by voters or this debate which they ll be processing at the same time. what they learned over the weekend about donald 2ru78. and now this debate. hillary clinton came saying if i protect what i have i win the election. and she was it was clear she was hoping that donald trump hurt himself with his own words and donald trump turned in a much stronger performance in terms of punching, counterpunching and getting to the issues more favorable to him. a much better job tonight than in the first debate no doubt. our exclusive cnn/orc poll results momentarily. who won this debate? in the meantime let s go back to jake. thanks so much. appreciate it, wolf. i m back with our panel. something i want to throw out to everyone here. i ll start with this side and work over. the alicia machado moment was a throwaway line at the end of the last debate and it became a huge story because of how the clinton campaign went with it and because of donald trump s reaction. one thing i m wondering if donald trump introduced at this night s debate that we just talked about over here that might become a bigger thing for the clinton campaign and i think we can agree they re much more effective at the attacks and the commercials and with surrogates, et cetera. that is with donald trump saying if he gets elected president he s going to ask his attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor to put hillary clinton in jail. yeah. this is the kind of thing they do in countries not like the united states, where you lock up and jail your political opponents. this feeds into something a criticism we ve heard actually more from conservative critics of donald trump than liberal critics of donald trump. can you imagine this man with his dem pramt and his drive for vengeance having instruments of government at his hands, the irs, et cetera. i wonder if that was a much bigger gaffe than we are making it out to be. i think it is. i think it s a huge gaffe. republicans talk about the imperial presidency and how barack obama has abused his executive powers. imagine somebody being asked to serve as attorney general if you knew that a president was going to direct prosecutions. i m not a lawyer. but i get that. and it is as dana was pointing out nixonian to a great degree. and i think that it is also un-american to a great degree. and i think that is something the clinton campaign can use and can use very fevtly. also to me when he said i d put her in jail. remember during the convention lock her up. lock her up, lock her up. and he kind of tried to quiet it a little at the convention because he was in presidential mode. now this was a primary campaign debate to me tonight and what he was doing was rallying the base by saying lock her up effectively, which he did also, calling her a liar multiple times and the devil. multiple times. and saying he d put her in jail. and he said she had hate in her heart. i don t think that s going to play very well with voters. i think what happened was he said i m throwing out the playbook and i m going with, as you point out, i m going with the material that s worked for me when i go out there and speak to these rallies. this line of prosecuting hillary clinton is something he s used in his rallies. this is not a new idea. he just raised it to the level of a debate point here. and my guess is it will resonate well with his base and it will antagonize the people he needs to grow who worry about the things you point out, who worry about his temperament, worry about whether he would handle the job of president in a responsible way. so you know, i think he galvanized the base again, perhaps at the expense of expanding it. it s another iteration of her argument, which is in an ad, about having him near the nuclear codes. a man you can bait with a tweet shouldn t be near the nuclear codes. and he also probably shouldn t have the instruments of the military, of the justice department. so yeah, i think that ll certainly end up in an ad. and again, it s going to turn off those moderate swing voters who want a steady person, who want somebody who is steady in terms of their temperament, in terms of their manner, in terms of their speech and approach to issues. so i think this it wasn t a plant by hillary clinton in any way. i don t think it s going to end up in an ad because this isn t the issue she doesn t want to i don t think alleged criminality those who watched it i think it was cringeworthy for a lot of folks who watched it. jake, the two of us have ties to the philly suburbs. i still live there. you have family who are there. i ve waited, we re now a month out from the election, less if you start and think that people are already voting and i ve been waiting and waiting and waiting for the pivot or the outreach to the folks who come in from our area because if we had a nickel for every time they get invoked, even on snl, we d be wealthy individuals. it s never going to happen. i mean, this is the donald trump who got this far. i think there potentially is an emperor has no clothes thing going on around him where perhaps the people who could say to him you need to pivot won t do so for whatever reason. but this is what got him thus far and this is how he s going to ride it out. and i think that he feeds on the reaction that he gets from that base which is what keeps him hitting but michael, maybe he felt like he took the advice of the people who were telling him to pivot and be more muted in the last debate and it didn t turn out well for him. could be. so he decided well, the hell with that, i m going to throw all that out and go back to the stuff i know works. and just to elaborate, it s not michael and i are biased because we re from philadelphia but it s not just the philly burbs we re talking about, we re talking about white college educated voters, the people in the i-4 corridor in the middle of florida, we re talking about the people in northern virginia, in the suburbs of denver. these are voters that mitt romney did well with, that john mccain did well with. still not well enough to win harrisburg, where thousands show up for donald trump. and donald trump is underperforming with them. and i know that this i m sure he will win every online poll. i know that the breitbart crowd ate this up. my question is did he win over any suburban households in philadelphia? sure. i think he can. and let me use the issue here that you were just talking about to illustrate. talking about jailing the opponent and how this is dictators and all this kind of stuff. there is another side to this. and on a side that independent voters, the kind of folks you were talking about are very concerned about, and that is the politicization of the department of justice where you have an attorney general, eric holder, who said in that case of the black panthers group there that were at the polls in philadelphia and they were armed and they were in uniform. he said he wasn t going to do it because these are my people. again, i m sure he s winning fox news voters. that s not my point. when you talk about he said he would some fact checker is the fact check machine is going tilt right now. you re speaking against the politicization of the justice department under the obama administration. his answer was i ll tell my attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor to lock her up. that s not what he said. he said i will appoint a special prosecutor to look into it. yes. and then later in the same exchange he said if he were in charge of the government she d be in jail. as a response. i know the media doesn t get satire and humor but that was a humorous line we do. we get satire. you compare him to hitler and stalin locking people up when he said i don t think anybody mentioned hitler or stalin. but let s play it. let s play the exchange. i didn t think i d say this but i m going to say it. and i hate to say it. but if i win i am going to instruct my attorney general to get a special prosecutor to look into your situation because there has never been so many lies, so much deception. there has never been anything like it. and we re going to have a special prosecutor. when i speak, i go out and speak, the people of this country are furious. in my opinion, the people that have been long-term workers at the fbi are furious. there has never been anything like this where e-mails and you get a subpoena. you get a subpoena, and after getting the subpoena you delete 33,000 e-mails. and then you acid wash them or bleach them, as you would say. a very expensive process. so we re going to get a special prosecutor and we re going to look into it because you know what? people have been their lives have been destroyed for doing 1/5 of what you ve done. and it s a disgrace. and honestly, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. secretary clinton everything he just said is absolutely false but i m not surprised. oh, really? i told people that it would be impossible to be fact-checking donald all the time. i d never get to talk about anything i want to do and how we re going to really make lives better for people. so once again, go to hillaryclinton.com. we have literally trump, you can fact-check him in real time. it s just awfully good that someone with the temperament of donald trump is not in charge of the law in our country. because you d be in jail. secretary clinton. yeah. humor right there. you re saying he wasn t being serious? i m saying he used that line. it was humor to illustrate the point. and the point is as with the e-mails i mean, how many so he thought she was innocent of anything wrong with e-mails? how many stories have we seen, jake, in the last two weeks about destruction of computers, special privileges, the president president clinton gets on the plane i love you guys know i love jeffrey lord. i do. i m not joking. here we go. and i greatly appreciate this is a clearing of the throat. this is it. jake, you may want to get out of the way. but the idea that you are threatening to prosecute your opponent is as best i can tell unprecedented in american history. and i will say this. you don t appoint a prosecutor to investigate. you appoint a prosecutor to lay the groundwork to put somebody in jail. and here s the problem i have with the whole thing. but hold on a second. here s the problem i have with the whole thing. look, we do have a criminal justice system that is unfair, that is biased, but when people like black lives matter point this out people like yourself say they re race baiting, they re racist, and turn a deaf ear. so you can t have it both ways. you can t pretend to care about a broken criminal justice system only when donald trump is scoring political points about hillary clinton and then turn your deaf ear to the cries of actual people who are suffering. and there was a big missed opportunity tonight. when that muslim woman stepped forward, donald trump could have very easily said to her, i understand what you re going through. and he did. and he didn t. he did. let me finish. we ll get the tape. we ll get the tape. he very briefly said one thing. and then he basically gave an islamophobic answer to a question about islamophobia. why do i say that? because he said you the muslims have to report on the things that are going on. as if only the muslims have to do this. as if all of the mass shootings are done by muslims. you can say you want everyone in the country you see something say something. that s an american position. he says the muslims have a special responsibility. that s an islamophobic response. and he missed opportunity after opportunity to reach out. but don t play games with criminal justice with me. so kayleigh, let me ask you. you maintain and tell me what you think. that the first part, special prosecutor, serious, but then the other thing about because you d be in jail that was a joke. i do. and the audience laughed. so i think they clearly got the humor. but you know, to van s point about criminal justice and double standards and caring about citizens, you know who i care a lot about? petty officer christian saucier, who s sitting in a jail right now sentenced to one year in prison for taking eight photographs on a submarine to show his family and bringing back classified information home for him. christian saucier s in jail. hillary clinton did the same thing. she s out free because the fbi, to jeffrey s point, is politicized. they re friends. four of the people sitting at this table have worked in the white house. the white house must maintain an arm s length relationship from the prosecutorial power of the justice department. and it always has. except in the nixon administration where nixon did try to politicize both the fbi and the cia. it was one of the darkest moments of our history. what trump has suggested is straight out of the dictator s handbook. and it came during the same debate when he publicly broke with his running mate who dared to question vladimir putin. now, ken vogel of politico points out, but i remember this from my own work, that in ukraine a putin puppet, viktor yanukovych, did the same thing. he became president. he was a putin puppet. he locked up his predecessor, yulia tymoshenko. this guy is laying the groundwork for exactly he wants to crack down on the first amendment against journalists. in every rally he attacks journalists. now he wants to lock up his opponent just like putin s buddy. and even his running mate takes second fiddle to his pal putin hold that thought. coming up who won tonight s debate? what do voters think? we ll reveal the first results of our instant poll of debate watchers. and we ll get the first reaction from our focus group of undecided voters in the key battleground state of ohio. stay with us. yeah mom, the new kitchen s great. hey! if you want somethig to cook faster, you just double the heat right? no reason. hey mom, for laundry, the maximum load is just a suggestion right? oh that makes sense. ummm mom, how do i monitor my credit? ok. thanks mom. that was easy. sign up for credit karma s free credit monitoring today. we re here in the spin room getting reaction from all the candidates both the candidates surrogates. lots of reaction coming in. we re also standing by for the exclusive results of our cnn/orc poll of voters in ohio. we re going to get that momentarily. stand by for that. first official unofficial but poll results. scientific poll that we ve got, you re going to get those results momentarily. david chalian will be with us for that. the big question of the night, what did undecided voters think about donald trump s answer to the question about the leaked tape? pamela brown watched the debate with a group of these voters. we re about to show you what they thought. while you watch look at the bottom of your screen. if the lines go up, voters liked the answer. if the lines go down, they didn t like the answer. men s responses are in green, women in yellow. here s donald trump s response. just for the record, though, are you saying that what you said on that bus 11 years ago, that you did not actually kiss women without consent or grope women without consent? i have great respect for women. nobody has more respect for women than i do. for the record you re saying you didn t do those things? you hear these things are said and i was embarrassed by it but i have tremendous respect for women. have you ever done those things? and women have respect for me. and i will tell you no, i have not. and i will tell you that i m going to make our country safe. pamela, these voters didn t seem to like his answer. yeah, as you saw the very strong reactions from these 29 undecided voters from the ohio state university. so let s get straight to them to see what their reaction was when donald trump defended himself against that access hollywood video. what did you think, barb, when you heard what he had to say? i find it hard to believe whatever he says. he just doesn t seem to be a truthful person. reporter: and you have two sons and you had sort of a visceral reaction to what he said in defense of that video and what he was saying in that video. what did you think? well, i just feel that everyone has placed all of the accent upon young women and how we should protect them. we are equal citizens. i would hope that my sons would not talk like he did and i have tried to raise them not to act that way. reporter: it s interesting, because he reiterated in his defense that this is locker room banter, that this is just words. what do you think, larry? did that resonate with you? no. because that s not locker room talk. and for a 59-year-old man to claim that that s locker room talk i think is offensive to the young men who are out playing sports and doing the right thing. to me, it s pure and simple, sexual assault. and he should be held accountable for his thinking and actions of sexual assault. so to you that is not just locker room banter? that s not. not at 59 years old, especially. i don t know any 59-year-olds who are in locker rooms. i just want to get quickly a show of hands. who thought that donald trump did enough to put that controversy surrounding the tape behind him? raise your hand if you think he did enough tonight in defense. okay. and there were some positive reactions when hillary clinton actually spoke after donald trump defended himself against that video. let s take a listen to what she had to say during the debate. this is who donald trump is and the question for us, the question our country must answer is that this is not who we are. that s why, to go back to your question, i want to send a message. we all should. to every boy and girl and indeed to the entire world that america already is great but we are great because we are good. so i want to ask you, what was it about hillary clinton s argument that resonated with you following donald trump s defense of the video? she stated that america is already great and i tend to agree with that. though we are slow in progressing in a number of areas, we are progressing and we need to continue the momentum. what about you? what did you think about hillary clinton s argument, the way that she reacted, particularly when he brought up bill clinton s past and the allegations against him? what did you think? i think that she tried to clarify that they weren t the same, that what donald trump had done was she had talked about her children and other people s children and daughters and that it just it was uncalled for and he should not have done it and didn t feel that his apology was sincere. and it s interesting because she largely sort of stayed away from going there. do you think that was a smart move? raise your hand if you think that was a smart move. and raise your hand if you think it was a smart move for donald trump to bring that up, if that was fair game. why do you think that? well, i think, you know, if everything is out on the table, then everything is fair game. is it apples to apples, absolutely not. but i don t think in these debates it just doesn t ever seem like anything s off the table. i m going to get a show of hands now. the big question, who do you think won this debate? hillary clinton. raise your hand if you think hillary clinton won tonight s debate. okay. raise your hand if you think donald trump won this debate. okay. so clearly there are some of you who thought this was a draw. raise your hand if you think tonight s debate was a draw. all right. there you go. there you have it, wolf. mixed response. coming up, we re going to talk about what they thought and who they are going to vote for, these undecided voters, if any of them cemented their vote after tonight s debate. you won t want to miss that. hillary clinton is now speaking to reporters aboard her aircraft. i want to listen in. go back and lean up against my stool but he was very present. we re going to take off. then we re going to bring you - you . [ inaudible question ]. nothing surprises me about him really, dan. i was surprised by the absolute avalanche of falsehoods. i mean, i really find it almost unimaginable that someone can stand and just tell, you know, a falsehood after falsehood. you all remember politifact said he was the most untruthful candidate they d ever evaluated. and we sort of did the numbers. i think they said he was like 70% untruthful. and so i think he exceeded that percentage tonight. how did president clinton anyway, thank you, guys. we ll come back in a few minutes. there she is. hillary clinton going to the back of her plane to speak to reporters, making some tough statements once again against donald trump. we have the results now of our instant poll. we ve been waiting for this. david chalian, our political director. give us the results. wolf, as you know, we did a pofl debate watchers. this is not a national poll of all voters. this is a poll of debate watchers and just like we saw in the first debate and the vice presidential debate, the audience skews a little more democratic. debate watchers are a little more democratic than we would see in a national poll overall. having said that, who won the debate? according to the debate watchers we polled, hillary clinton won the debate. 57% to 34% for donald trump. that s not as big of a victory as she got in our poll in the first debate but it is a clear victory here. but talk about besting expectations. take a look at this. did donald trump best expectations, did he do better than you thought he would do? 63% of debate watchers said donald trump did better than they expected. only 21% say that he did worse and 15% say he did the same as they expected. how about hillary clinton s expectation game? take a look at these numbers. did hillary clinton do better or worse than you expected? 39% say she did better. 26% said she did worse and 34% said she did about the same. hillary clinton the winner in this poll of who won the debate. but donald trump significantly overperforming expectations. but the polls show that she did win this debate. let s get immediate reaction from kellyanne conway, the trump campaign manager who is with us. what s your reaction to that? my reaction is that i m glad that people think that 60% according to your online poll believe that hillary clinton either did worse or the same as they expected. it showed she wasn t very well prepared for tonight s debate. and that really surprises me. because if she s anything she s, you know, very wonky. she s very pedantic, lawyerly in her responses. i would have thought she d be better prepared for this debate. ail heard all week, wolf, is that the town hall format is really great for her. whereas we know it s our sweet spot because donald trump is out there every single day engaging with voters. he loves that. he s at the rallies. he s at the smaller forum round tables. he s at his own town halls. he clearly won the debate tonight why? because if you watched anybody s shows this whole weekend we ve just been left for dead, it s all over, why even show up, will there be a debate, are people jumping ship. he came here to play tonight and he came here to take the case right to hillary clinton and to show americans this race is still what it s always been. past versus future. politician versus successful businessman. washington insider versus disrupter. and he made that case very clearly. he did not back down. kellyanne, i want to ask you about what he said at the beginning of the debate. more than one time he referred once again to what he said on that tape as locker room talk. you re his campaign manager, the only woman at the head of that campaign. what did you think when you saw and you heard that? truthfully, what was your reaction? my initial reaction was very close to what melania trump said. i was offended. and i think that language is offensive and disgusting. and i m also very happy that he apologized. i m glad that he holds himself excuse me. accountable. because i look at the full measure of people, what they ve said, what they ve done, dana, and how they deal with adversity that comes to him to them. and donald trump is absolutely correct. these are words compared to actions. and he made that very clear tonight that hillary clinton blaming and shaming the women in her husband s life, that is not somebody who s standing up for women. but the term locker room talk. you had the highest-ranking woman in congress, republican woman, kathy mcmorris rogers, blowing that off and saying no, no, no, this is suggesting sexual assault and that s a very unfortunate phrase and people should stop using it. why? because i know him better. and i know better. but it s what he said. he did not say the word sexual no. it s what he implied you want to talk about sexual assault, right here in the hall i know cnn doesn t want into the view them for whatever reason. you give miss universe a big platform. but we have in the hall tonight juanita broaddrick and paula jones and kathy shelton the 12-year-old rape victim that two years before the rape shield laws were implemented in arkansas hillary clinton defending her 42-year-old rapist successfully defending him getting him a plea bargain. she was willing to blame and shame that victim as well who was 12 years old. we can talk about sexual assault but let s have a full conversation about it. this is what i know. i have to assess people based on what i see in totem. this is a man i ve been alone with many times who s never been anything but gracious and a gentleman and elevated me to the top level of his campaign the way he s elevated women in the trump organization for decades. because he respects women. let me just say that cnn at the time many, many years ago did fully litigate these two gentlemen were actually covering the clinton white house fully, talk about and report on their stories at the time. because it is very old. and i just because you brought it up i just have to say, kellyanne how she treated them. no, no. it was real time. i just have to say because you brought it up that your boss himself back in 1998 told neil cavuto about these victims. i don t necessarily agree with his victims, talking about bill clinton. his victims are terrible. he, meaning bill clinton, is the real victim himself. he put himself in that position. and he talked about how unattractive these people are. so in 1998 we re not going to talk about paula jones because it s too old but we ll talk did what i m saying is at that time he was defending bill clinton and going after these guys and now he s changed he s gotten to know them. we took note of hillary clinton s comment on the campaign trail and actually she said all sexual assault victims deserve to be heard and believed. these are her words. she s running for president now. she wants to be the president of all people. i assume except for the ones she thinks are deplorable and airredeemable which is tens of millions. but in fairness i know we want to talk about this because we certainly don t want to talk about tonight s campaign performance. when hillary clinton just on her plane lying that donald trump said falsehood after falsehood. i was watching the debate in real time. politifact, the fact checker said he was right about her wanting to have a 550% increase in sir refugees let me ask you another question about the debate. donald trump said he had not spoken to his vice presidential running mate mike pence about syria and he disagreed with him. we re 30 days from the american people voting. mike pence will be out there campaigning tomorrow. is the message to the american people at mike pence rallies don t believe what he says because not at all. they were talking about two different things. i just talked to governor pence not ten minutes ago. he says hello. he and mr. trump had also talked about what a great debate we ve had between tuesday night the vice presidential debate and tonight obviously donald trump winning here. in a vice presidential debate the conversation was about humanitarian crisis. and that s what governor pence was referring to. and mr. trump said and he said the united states might have to use force. governor pence the united states might he might have to. and donald trump said tonight i disagree with that. and i haven t spoken with him. about that particular aspect of it since the debate. that is true p they ve spoken many times this week. but let me be clear. on tv on your network today cnn s jake tapper took tim kaine to account because he couldn t answer a simple question about what hillary clinton said in the e-mails about having open borders. we know she s for open borders but the only way we know it now is because we saw it in her e-mails we did hear something extraordinary from donald trump today. he said if he s elected president he will ask the justice department to name a special prosecutor to go after hillary clinton. and then he went one step further and said he would arrest her and lock her up he would put her in jail. in all of the years, i don t remember a time in american history when one candidate has said of the other candidate if he wins the other candidate s going to jail. donald trump is channeling the frustration of a lot of americans he hears from, wolf. so many americans say i can t believe that people have been their lives have been ruined, their livelihood gone, they face jail time for doing far less than hillary clinton did hear and yet she was completely exonerated for deleting 33,000 e-mails, not turning over another 17,000. that s 50,000 right there. setting up the private server to begin with. saying that there s no classified information. fbi director comey said that s not true. i only had one device. she had many. they took a hammer to them. the story goes on and on. and it s an active investigation. in other words, just less than two weeks ago did ybut you understand the enormity of that statement. he s going to lock up his opponent if he wins. well, no, what he said is he wants to appoint a special prosecutor because he feels and he channels nearly public will here he hears all the time if we don t hear about the disasters in obama care and her failure with the russian reset and benghazi we re always hearing about the e-mails. and he is telling he told america tonight what america has told him. the frustration that there s a different set of rules for this woman as goes for e-mails. and she i you ve got to run. i m going to put up on the screen the results of our poll. you re a professional pollster. you ll see the results. these are people who actually watched the debate and millions and millions of americans watched. who won the debate? 57% said hillary clinton won the debate. 34% said donald trump won the debate. that s the results of our cnn/orc poll. kellyanne, thanks very much for joining us. i watched a different debate, but thank you. coming up we re going to have a reality check on some of the most contentious statements we heard from the candidates tonight. and we ll reveal more results from our own poll of watchers. what was their response to trump s attempts to explain his vulgar comments caught on tape? stay with us. welcome back. we re here in the spin room following this historic debate. we ve got a reality check, some fact checking with tom foreman and phil mattingly. tom foreman, first to you. what have you found out? wolf, attacks and insults have characterized this campaign for months now. and tonight as well. with hillary clinton saying donald trump has gone after women again and again. but it s not only women and it s not only this video that raises questions about his fitness to be our president. because he has also targeted immigrants, african-americans, latinos, people with disabilities, p.o.w.s, muslims, and so many others. that is really an enormous list of people up there. could this possibly be true? well, if you go all wait back to when he announced his candidacy, yeah, at some time or another he s either said or done something to disparage people on every one of these lists. this was actually a very easy one to check. and her claim is true. wolf? thank you, tom. phil mattingly, you ve been doing a reality check as well. yeah, that s right. it wasn t just hillary clinton that was taking some swings tonight. donald trump rolling off a litany of attacks against bill and hillary clinton. included this one. that bill clinton lost his law license. but what president clinton did, he was impeached. he lost his license to practice law. so here s the claim, that bill clinton lost his law license. quite simply was no longer allowed to practice law. so here are the facts. in the wake of revelations that bill clinton lied during the monica lewinsky investigation the arkansas supreme court brought a disbarment lawsuit against clinton. now, clinton agreed as part of the resolution to that lawsuit the day before leaving office to a five-year suspension of his arkansas law license as part of that plea deal to put an end to the lewinsky investigation. so where does that leave us? the verdict. it s true. on donald trump s claim that bill clinton lost his law license for five years. it s accurate. for this and all of tonight s reality checks go to cnn.com/realitycheck. wolf? cnn s coverage of the second presidential debate continues right after this. a high one. donald trump s campaign staggered after the video where the bragged he could grab a woman s genitals. then he went to attack mode and hillary clinton responded. look, it s just not true. you didn t delete them? personal e-mails. not official. we turned over 35,000. what about the other 50,000? please allow her to respond. she didn t talk while you talked. that s true. i ll try not to in this debate because i d like to get to the questions that the people have brought here tonight to talk to us about. and get off this question. okay, donald, i know you re into big diversion tonight. anything to avoid talking about your campaign and the way it is exploding and the way republicans are leaving you. the news this morning,