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thank you very much. >> digging deeper now into this document controversy. joining us is form federal prosecutor and cnn political analyst laura, white house correspondent for pbs. welcome both and good morning. renato, starting with you, i mean, there are two special counsels at the same time investigating a former and now a sitting president over the same issue, handling of classified documents, but we should clarify these are two very different investigations, right? >> no question. i actually think that these two matters have at best a passing similarity. as a practical matter, the two investigations in many ways are very different. they are investigating different statutes and different behavior. in former president trump's case, he willfully retained classified documents. you know, he received a -- you know, letters from the government asking for the

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CNN Newsroom

classified documents from mar-a-lago and all along house republicans had defended president trump, have not gone after him for the hand lining of classified documents, even though it's clear that the cases are different and that the former president resisted for more than a year returning these classified documents. >> right. but even if these investigations are different, renato, with these two special counsel investigations going on simultaneously, you can't, i guess, unmarry the politics from the legal, right? especially if it comes to the outcome that doesn't pursue anything against biden criminally but, you know, let say there are charges that come out against trump. no matter what the facts are, how do you think that'll play? >> well, you know, it's a great question. obviously, i don't know exactly what special counsel jack smith is investigating, trump is thinking. but that sort of consideration is not the sort of thing that

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The Beat With Ari Melber

incriminating. and the reality is, while there's no way of knowing for certain, unless now the government, the special counsel is able too come up with a witness to say, absolutely he did that, what it does is it puts the special counsel's office on notice that they need to be locking for obstruction, that obstruction is really everywhere when you see it in these transcripts, whether it's witnesses with just terminally bad memories about a day that should loom large in their ability to remember what they did, or whether it's the sort of unbelievable comments. doj has a lot of reason to be on the lookout for obstruction. >> renato, do you feel the same way as joyce? joyce recently penned an op-ed that obstruction should be something that jack smith should be focusing on. but i'd like to know if there are things that stood out.

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The Beat With Ari Melber

so trump might be a weak link here. >> joyce, to renato's point, stephen miller telling the committee that to this day he still thinks trump won the election. i have to ask you, joyce, what is the import of that testimony that miller's just nuts or dumb or both? or does that help him in some legal way by maintaining that he thinks that trump still won that 2020 election? >> so, look, it's clearly a legal strategy, because anyone with any level of ability to take in information and process it is aware that the evidence is overwhelming, that there was no fraud that impacted the 2020 election. that one's just out the window. but what this persistent, you know, just clinging to the notion of fraud does, i think, in the minds of some of these folks, is that it's an effort to negate essential elements that the government would have to prove to prosecute them

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The Beat With Ari Melber

counting on here is the fact that to be indicted, successfully charged and convicted of perjury, the government would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what he said in this testimony is false, and he's banking there's no one to contradict that. it's a story that on its face is ridiculous. i think anyone who reads this testimony is left with the clear impression he's lying when he said this, that his back was against the wall and he had to come up with something, and he did. but there's a big gap with that and a successful perjury prosecution. >> renato, to joyce's point, your special counsel jack smith, you're seeing these for the first time or you have been seen them before they got released to the public. do you cherry pick, knowing these are self-serving statements coming from several witnesses? there are some nuggets of truth,

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The Beat With Ari Melber

criminally. so in some cases tough prove that a defendant knew something or intended to do something, and by persisting in this belief that the election was stolen, they hope to be able to avoid that. it's not very believable when they say it, but that's what's going on. if i could just add to what i thought was renato's really excellent point about the strange way in which the trump family communicates, it's not just donald trump jr.'s need to go to his father through mark meadows. there's this moment when he says in his testimony that he learned that he needed to go to washington on january 6th because his brother eric trump said it in a tweet. and this motion that they're only communicating with each other in tweets or through third persons is really interesting. i'm not entirely certain what it means, but it's certainly worth keeping a eye on. >> you know, renato, i have to ask, we had several public

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The Beat With Ari Melber

the government during the attack and since then he's gotten death threats and people have shown up at his home. joining me now, federal prosecutors joyce and renato. joyce, i think like to start with you from a legal standpoint. what do you think is the most damning evidence from today's transcript drop? >> you know, this is one of those moments where you could sling a cat around the room, right, and you would just keep hitting things. there's a lot going on in this release of transcripts. i think one of the very telling details comes in donald trump jr.'s testimony, where he's asked about switching to use of a program or an app that automatically deletes his communications on his phone, and whether or not that was tied up to the committee's formation. and he denies that. the timing is very

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The Beat With Ari Melber

include in the televised presentations. >> joyce, focusing still on don junior, he was questioned about texts that he sent on november 5th, and that was a critical date, outlining strategies to overturn the election results. he reportedly wrote, quote, we have multiple paths, we control them all. then the committee presses him on this, showing him donald trump jr. the texts and reading to him one he allegedly wrote stating, quote, this is what we need to do. please get it to everyone who needs to see it. he replied to the committee, doesn't sound like me. i imagine i kuss and pasted it from somewhere. joyce, these are his own text messages, his own words. can don junior think he has the credibility to maneuver inconsistencies this way? you, me, renato, others, we impeach pretty hard on prior inconsistent statements. >> again i suspect what he's

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The Beat With Ari Melber

these witnesses, perhaps the lawyers, and break into the truth about what was really going on here? >> full faith and credit in the doj and special counsel jack smith. joyce vance and renato, a pleasure as always and happy new year to you both. thanks for being here. >> thank you. >> thank you. coming up, the growing legal peril facing gop congressman-elect george santos work probes at the local, state, and federal levels. plus, the new trump headaches for republicans as they stumble into control of the house. and a tech insider on the new troubles for elon musk and why 2022 may go down as the year of the grifter. all that and more when we're back in just 60 seconds.

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All In With Chris Hayes

southern california district court who said basically the evidence court finds that more likely than not, trump and dr. eastman dishonestly conspire to obstruct the joint sessio of congress on january 6th 2021 so you have already before thi report, renato, a federal judg saying there is something here it is not beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt but the question becomes that guess, is there evidence tha exists that doj could get that the committee could not? how necessary or relevant is that >> i am really glad you aske that question chris. there is a really importan missing piece here which is, what pat cipollone told donald trump. if you read chapter five there is a discussion for example of a raw meeting where cipollon was excluded from the meetin but they don't know, the committee doesn't know exactly why, because cipollone refused to answer questions around the

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