consensus was that there is no documented asymptomatic transmission therefore policy was based on the assumption that covid transmitted as source. i had by this stage a significant amount of anecdotal evidence and hence i have gone over the sand over this and over this in my mind. if i had just said the science is different, that would not have carried the system with me because i'm not representative of the people, if you like, as the secretary of state and the scientific advice was very clear to the contrary. what i could have done was said you know, that may be the formal scientific advice, i am overrunning it and say instead marvellous and asymptomatic transmission, that would have had risks on the other side of assuming spread for it may have been unlikely to happen and but with hindsight of course i wish i had done that hence it is my single biggest regret but what i am trying... mr it is my single biggest regret but what i am trying. . ._ what i am trying... mr hancock, erfectl what i am trying... mr hancock, perfectly understandable - what i am trying... mr hancock, perfectly understandable you i what i am trying... mr hancock, . perfectly understandable you would wish to _ perfectly understandable you would wish to answer— perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at _ perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at length _ perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at length and - perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at length and it - perfectly understandable you would wish to answer at length and it is l wish to answer at length and it is an important— wish to answer at length and it is an important issue _ wish to answer at length and it is an important issue but _ wish to answer at length and it is an important issue but could - wish to answer at length and it is an important issue but could i. an important issue but could i invite — an important issue but could i invite you _ an important issue but could i invite you just _ an important issue but could i invite you just to _ an important issue but could i invite you just to please - an important issue but could i invite you just to please to . an important issue but could i. invite you just to please to stick to the _ invite you just to please to stick to the question. _ invite you just to please to stick to the question. sure. - invite you just to please to stick to the question. sure. 29- invite you just to please to stick to the question. sure. 29 430, i invite you just to please to stick- to the question. sure. 29 430, eight message _ to the question. sure. 29 430, eight message between— to the question. sure. 29 430, eight message between the _ to the question. sure. 29 430, eight message between the government l to the question. sure. 29 430, eight- message between the government chief scientific— message between the government chief scientific adviser— message between the government chief scientific adviser and _ message between the government chief scientific adviser and the _ message between the government chief scientific adviser and the chief - scientific adviser and the chief medicat— scientific adviser and the chief medical officer _ scientific adviser and the chief medical officer on _ scientific adviser and the chief medical officer on the - scientific adviser and the chief medical officer on the 24th i scientific adviser and the chief medical officer on the 24th of| scientific adviser and the chief - medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick— medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick balances _ medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick balances fight _ medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick balances fight the - medical officer on the 24th ofjuly. sir patrick balances fight the prime minister— sir patrick balances fight the prime minister and — sir patrick balances fight the prime minister and matt— sir patrick balances fight the prime minister and matt hancock- sir patrick balances fight the prime minister and matt hancock are - sir patrick balances fight the prime . minister and matt hancock are saying we did _ minister and matt hancock are saying we did not— minister and matt hancock are saying we did not know— minister and matt hancock are saying we did not know about— minister and matt hancock are saying we did not know about asymptomaticj we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? — we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? exactly. _ we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? exactly. i— we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? exactly. i have - we did not know about asymptomatic transmission? exactly. i have no - transmission? exactly. i have no idea _ transmission? exactly. i have no idea they— transmission? exactly. i have no idea. they were _ transmission? exactly. i have no idea. they were aware _ transmission? exactly. i have no idea. they were aware of - transmission? exactly. i have no idea. they were aware of the - idea. they were aware of the possibility— idea. they were aware of the possibility but _ idea. they were aware of the possibility but it _ idea. they were aware of the possibility but it is _ idea. they were aware of the possibility but it is correctly. possibility but it is correctly thought _ possibility but it is correctly thought transmission- possibility but it is correctly thought transmission was l possibility but it is correctly- thought transmission was most likely after symptoms — thought transmission was most likely after symptoms like _ thought transmission was most likely after symptoms like source, - thought transmission was most likely after symptoms like source, by- thought transmission was most likely| after symptoms like source, by march ithink— after symptoms like source, by march i think of— after symptoms like source, by march i think of a _ after symptoms like source, by march i think of a pretty— after symptoms like source, by march i think of a pretty clear— after symptoms like source, by march i think of a pretty clear we _ after symptoms like source, by march i think of a pretty clear we thought i i think of a pretty clear we thought asymptomatic— i think of a pretty clear we thought asymptomatic transmission, - i think of a pretty clear we thought asymptomatic transmission, we i i think of a pretty clear we thought . asymptomatic transmission, we have to put— asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up— asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with — asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite _ asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite a _ asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite a bit _ asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite a bit of- asymptomatic transmission, we have to put up with quite a bit of this, - to put up with quite a bit of this, 'ust to put up with quite a bit of this, just a _ to put up with quite a bit of this, just a wett— to put up with quite a bit of this, just a well the _ to put up with quite a bit of this, just a well the sage _ to put up with quite a bit of this, just a well the sage minutes - to put up with quite a bit of this, just a well the sage minutes ori to put up with quite a bit of this, i just a well the sage minutes or in the public— just a well the sage minutes or in the public domain. _ just a well the sage minutes or in the public domain. under- just a well the sage minutes or in the public domain. under the - just a well the sage minutes or in. the public domain. under the same reference _ the public domain. under the same reference tom _ the public domain. under the same reference to. . ._ reference to... don't yet know who the unknown _ reference to... don't yet know who the unknown s? _ reference to. .. don't yet know who the unknown s? sir— reference to... don't yet know who the unknown s? sir patrick - reference to... don't yet know who | the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers — the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers stating _ the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers stating they _ the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers stating they are - the unknown s? sir patrick balance. the advisers stating they are that i the advisers stating they are that they did — the advisers stating they are that they did know— the advisers stating they are that they did know and _ the advisers stating they are that they did know and they _ the advisers stating they are that they did know and they told - the advisers stating they are that they did know and they told you i the advisers stating they are that. they did know and they told you and they did know and they told you and the prime _ they did know and they told you and the prime minister— they did know and they told you and the prime minister about— they did know and they told you and the prime minister about the - the prime minister about the significance _ the prime minister about the significance of— the prime minister about the significance of asymptomatic transmission _ significance of asymptomatic transmission and _ significance of asymptomatic transmission and the - significance of asymptomatic transmission and the degree| significance of asymptomatic . transmission and the degree of significance of asymptomatic - transmission and the degree of it and they— transmission and the degree of it and they are _ transmission and the degree of it and they are confounded - transmission and the degree of it and they are confounded by- transmission and the degree of it and they are confounded by the l and they are confounded by the notion— and they are confounded by the notion that _ and they are confounded by the notion that you _ and they are confounded by the notion that you and _ and they are confounded by the notion that you and the - and they are confounded by the notion that you and the prime i notion that you and the prime minister— notion that you and the prime minister are _ notion that you and the prime ministerare now— notion that you and the prime minister are now saying - notion that you and the prime minister are now saying he i notion that you and the prime| minister are now saying he did notion that you and the prime - minister are now saying he did not know— minister are now saying he did not know about — minister are now saying he did not know about it _ minister are now saying he did not know about it. we _ minister are now saying he did not know about it.— minister are now saying he did not know about it. ~ . ., . , , know about it. we are not apparently sa in: know about it. we are not apparently saying anything. _ know about it. we are not apparently saying anything. we _ know about it. we are not apparently saying anything, we are _ know about it. we are not apparently saying anything, we are clearly - saying anything, we are clearly stating the position put to us as the scientific position based on the global international scientific position which was to base policy on an assumption of no asymptomatic transmission and set up a public health england. that is what is being referred to in the first of these messages. and i assume this is a shorthand from patrick balance saying why is the prime minister at matt hancock saying we didn't know but what we were saying was the error was that the scientific advice required or are formally advised the policy should be based on an assumption of asymptomatic transmission. the problem here in this exchange is demonstrated by the words pretty clear, we were pretty clear that we thought, right, with the government chief scientific adviser knew as a post he was pretty clear and for then that may have changed the uk scientific position but he did not know as we have seen, there was huge uncertainty and i am not blaming him at all for this, there was huge uncertainty on this question and it is deeply frustrating to me now i'm deeply frustrating to me now i'm deeply frustrating at the time that being a pretty clear it was not good enough to change the scientific advice i received on which to base policy. all right. in any event your witness statement — all right. in any event your witness statement acknowledges _ all right. in any event your witness statement acknowledges the - statement acknowledges the importance _ statement acknowledges the importance of— statement acknowledges the importance of this _ statement acknowledges the importance of this debate i statement acknowledges the importance of this debate is| statement acknowledges the - importance of this debate is that if you do— importance of this debate is that if you do not— importance of this debate is that if you do not know— importance of this debate is that if you do not know the _ importance of this debate is that if you do not know the extent- importance of this debate is that if you do not know the extent of- you do not know the extent of asymptomatic— you do not know the extent of asymptomatic transmission. you do not know the extent of. asymptomatic transmission you you do not know the extent of- asymptomatic transmission you cannot -et a asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle _ asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on — asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on the _ asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on the extent _ asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on the extent of- asymptomatic transmission you cannot get a handle on the extent of the - get a handle on the extent of the virus _ get a handle on the extent of the virus and — get a handle on the extent of the virus and therefore _ get a handle on the extent of the virus and therefore what - get a handle on the extent of the . virus and therefore what proportion of persons — virus and therefore what proportion of persons infected _ virus and therefore what proportion of persons infected will _ virus and therefore what proportion of persons infected will die - virus and therefore what proportion| of persons infected will die because you do— of persons infected will die because you do not— of persons infected will die because you do not know— of persons infected will die because you do not know how— of persons infected will die because you do not know how many- of persons infected will die because you do not know how many people i of persons infected will die because i you do not know how many people at the base _ you do not know how many people at the base level— you do not know how many people at the base level have _ you do not know how many people at the base level have got— you do not know how many people at the base level have got the _ the base level have got the infection— the base level have got the infection who _ the base level have got the infection who don't - the base level have got the infection who don't die. - the base level have got thei infection who don't die. and the base level have got the - infection who don't die. and you make _ infection who don't die. and you make the — infection who don't die. and you make the suggestion _ infection who don't die. and you make the suggestion in - infection who don't die. and you make the suggestion in your- infection who don't die. and you - make the suggestion in your witness statement _ make the suggestion in your witness statement that — make the suggestion in your witness statement that what _ make the suggestion in your witness statement that what could _ make the suggestion in your witness statement that what could have - make the suggestion in your witness| statement that what could have been done in _ statement that what could have been done in tight— statement that what could have been done in tight of— statement that what could have been done in light of what _ statement that what could have been done in light of what you _ statement that what could have been done in light of what you say - statement that what could have been done in light of what you say is - statement that what could have been done in light of what you say is the l done in light of what you say is the lack done in light of what you say is the tack of— done in light of what you say is the lack of knowledge _ done in light of what you say is the lack of knowledge about _ done in light of what you say is the lack of knowledge about the - done in light of what you say is the | lack of knowledge about the extent of asymptomatic _ lack of knowledge about the extent of asymptomatic transmission - lack of knowledge about the extent of asymptomatic transmission is i of asymptomatic transmission is applying — of asymptomatic transmission is applying the _ of asymptomatic transmission is applying the precautionary- of asymptomatic transmission is - applying the precautionary approach, that is— applying the precautionary approach, that is to _ applying the precautionary approach, that is to say. — applying the precautionary approach, that is to say, simply— applying the precautionary approach, that is to say, simply stay _ applying the precautionary approach, that is to say, simply stay as - applying the precautionary approach, that is to say, simply stay as a - that is to say, simply stay as a matter— that is to say, simply stay as a matter of— that is to say, simply stay as a matter of internal— that is to say, simply stay as a matter of internal policy- that is to say, simply stay as a matter of internal policy or - matter of internal policy or approach. _ matter of internal policy or approach. we _ matter of internal policy or approach, we do _ matter of internal policy or approach, we do not - matter of internal policy or approach, we do not know| matter of internal policy or. approach, we do not know the matter of internal policy or _ approach, we do not know the extent of asymptomatic _ approach, we do not know the extent of asymptomatic transmission. - approach, we do not know the extent of asymptomatic transmission. meat | of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not— of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know— of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it _ of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it for— of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it for some _ of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it for some time - of asymptomatic transmission. meat may not know it for some time so i of asymptomatic transmission. meat i may not know it for some time so why don't _ may not know it for some time so why don't we _ may not know it for some time so why don't we just — may not know it for some time so why don't we just appty _ may not know it for some time so why don't we just apply a _ may not know it for some time so why don't we just apply a careful, - don't we just apply a careful, precautionary— don't we just apply a careful, precautionary approach- don't we just apply a careful, | precautionary approach which don't we just apply a careful, . precautionary approach which is assume — precautionary approach which is assume that— precautionary approach which is assume that it _ precautionary approach which is assume that it is _ precautionary approach which is assume that it is at _ precautionary approach which is assume that it is at a _ precautionary approach which is| assume that it is at a significant level. _ assume that it is at a significant level. in— assume that it is at a significant level. in fact _ assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it _ assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it turned _ assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it turned out - assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it turned out to - assume that it is at a significant level, in fact it turned out to be| level, in fact it turned out to be between — level, in fact it turned out to be between 30 _ level, in fact it turned out to