and so on. so the idea of a delay isn't completely irrational and i think the president delaying it is proof of that. >> let me make a series of points. one is that the president did not do this unilaterally, let's start with that. but also the fact that this is a program that passed both houses and has been affirmed by the supreme court. when in history have we seen a situation like this where you're willing to shut down the government for something -- >> i'm not willing to shut down the government so i want to be clear about that. >> but that's going to be the effect, isn't it, congressman? >> no, i don't think so. we've been down this road many times. the reality is we're in negotiation. so are we going to put our best foot forward and have no leverage? of course not. so everyone knows there is a little bit of negotiating going on, positioning and posturing. >> where does the posturing end and where does the serious stuff begin? >> well, first of all, it's all serious. but you do have to have leverage. at the end of the day, this is politics. to say it's not, look, from day