Transcripts For MSNBC Morning Joe 20110705

political analyst pat buchanan. great to have you here in new york. >> hello. >> chairman of deutsche incorporated, donny deutsch, hello. all dressed up. >> back from the hamptons. >> i was there holding court. >> you were at nobu in the fourth of july. >> pat was there with a gaggle of -- i can't explain what was going on at that table. >> teenagers. >> they were of age. >> it's ridiculous what your life -- i really should blog about your life. middle aged man. >> my parents today celebrating 58th anniversary. >> that's nice. >> shout out to mom and dad. >> msnbc political analyst and visiting professor of nyu, herald ford. how were was your fourth? >> willie? where were you? >> new york city. >> with the black socks and sandals? >> exactly. >> i'm the legend here in the summer. no one is around. >> isn't it nice? >> you got to take care of my cats. >> you got the cats again, willie? >> is that still on, "cats." i don't think it's still on. >> so a lot is going on. thinking we're a little closer here. are we closer, pat, on the budget. is that your gut. >> take a look at what happened in the market last week. i'm inclined to think that the republicans are going to win this battle. all they have to do is hold the line, propose the debt ceiling lift, put no new taxes on it and i don't see how obama and the senate say no repeatedly. >> they have to give a little bit. with the august deadline looming, the house and the senate are cutting the recess short this week to continue negotiations on the nation's deficit. the democrats and republicans try to reach a deal, "the new york times" reports that the obama administration is offering to cut tens of billions of dollars from medicare and medicaid as part of the ongoing talks. the times says the money would come from health care providers without directly imposing new costs for patients and radically changing the programs. however, the depths of the cuts depends on whether the republicans are willing to accept any increases in tax revenue. regarding that discussion, the cover of today's ""wall street journal" wts reads, deficit talks focus on taxes. the republicans are at odds with democrats raising tax revenue by some $400 billion in the next decade. republican leaders say they don't want increases. this past weekend, some members of the party seemed more open to eliminating tax breaks. john cornyn said lawmakers should close some loopholes and tax -- eliminate tax breaks as part of a larger effort to cut rates but he cautions it may be too late to add this to a budget deal. >> i think it's clear that republicans are opposed to any tax hikes, particularly in a fragile economic recovery. the last thing that employers need is further disincentives to not hire people. and that's what a higher tax would mean. do we believe that tax reform is necessary? i would say absolutely. not enough time to get this done between now and august 2. but it ought to be the first thing we turn to to try to make our tax code more rationale. we can bring down rates, eliminate the tax. a lot of tax expenditures are loop hoeholing loopholings. >> shouldn't they hold firm, democrats, on this. >> this is a big step forward for john cornyn, one of the big leaders in the -- a leader in the republican senate campaign committee to suggest they're open to the idea if not in the intermediate term closing loopholes is an important first step. it suggests that you can win some of your concessions you want here. if you're going to take drastic steps to reform medicare and medicaid and social security, which i agree we should, you should also hold firm to say that some are going to have their taxes changed. if the middle class and the people below the middle class are going to make sacrifices, and all americans should. people on the upper oechend sho as well. hopefully they'll agree to a corporate tax cut and hopefully doing something incentivize businesses hiring going forward. >> we got some great segment ms ahead. and must reads. the tax issue hurts it economy to deal with this a little bit and get what the democrats want on this. i don't think it does. >> i want patrick to explain this. he never quite understood why if we closed the loopholes, if we tax people, i don't want to say 250, 500,000, the hedge fund tax rates. i went to the business school. i ran a business for years. i can't put the math together. >> the increase in tax -- tax revenues takes money out of the productive economy and gives it to the government which is the problem right now. you just gloss over that. >> it spends $1 million a year. let's say they're making $1 million a year. they're taxed for 33%. they're taxed up to 33% of the disposabable income. why is that other than putting in the money. why does that slow down the economy? >> you take it from private citizens and private corporations and give it to government, therefore things are going to get better. that is the problem. let's talk to harold's point. i think it will go along with the reductions in rates and giving up certain exemptions, etc. that's reaganonmics. america can't go home again. >> america can't pay its debt. >> here's what they're going to do. they're going to raise the debt ceiling. raise it once or twice, put on biden cuts, send it to the senate, the democratic senate will have to reject them or obama will reject them. and they'll send them again with more of a debt ceiling with cuts. if they're rejected, they're responsible when the country goes down. >> i don't think there's any doubt that the scenario could play out. john cornyn was not suggesting that he was open to the idea of revenue raises is an important step. >> it's what we're talking about. >> reaganomics or buchanan-omics and republicans are open to the idea of balancing the budget, obama and democrats prevail. >> they're not saying revenue increases. reduce the rates, eliminate the adjustments and zero revenue increase. >> a lot of people say if you spread out the democrats, including myself and jim cramer as well said this, if you spread out the number of people, expand the number of people paying taxes, you can lower the rates. do you think the rate that the hedge fund manager rates pay, should they pay capital gains or income? >> if you're turning stocks over daily, that's gambling. >> that's -- >> i do believe in long-term capital gains and long-term investments and things like that. but one problem no one addresses, 51% of american wage earners pay zero income taxes. a lot of them getted the earned income tax credit checks. you can't take half of the country. >> they all pay social security and medicare. every american worker says that. >> answer one of harold's questions? >> yes, sir. >> hedge fund managers that can put money over seas and don't pay any taxes. my friends run hedge funds, they pay a lower tax rate than anybody. do you think that should change. >> i would think the short term capital gains? >> answer that one question. >> oh whatever they're doing over there. the hedge fund guy invests in something for long term. it's investing in the country and a long-term capital gains, play capital gains rates like you do in wall street. >> i think they're investing -- >> a full exemption as far as the money they're investing overseas. overseas -- they put money that way. they put after 10, 12, 13 yearlings get it back paying zero taxes. >> they're trying to repatriate all of these funds. i would cut it to 5% to get all of that money back to the country. of course i would. >> back to washington. willie? >> i have harold with me on this. >> not sure it's true. >> they pay the capital gains rate versus the ordinary income rate. that's the only question being asked. if you look it up, i want you to answer that question. >> i look it up. i don't agree with the lower rate if it's short term capital gains. long term, i believe, yes. >> the distinction between tax increases and revenue raises is interesting. john mccain was talking about this on sunday as well. let's listen. >> the principle of not raising taxes is something we campaigned on last november. and the results of the election was that the american people didn't want their taxes raised and they wanted us to cut spending. i think this catastrophe or short term meltdown that we're facing isn't nearly as bad as the meltdown that we're facing unless we get our deficit under control. >> let's talk about what they mean. we're not talking about increasing tax rates. how are you raising the revenue without increasiing the taxes? >> you're not raising net revenue. reducing the tax rates and getting an exemption. suppose you and i went back at 35%. we went back to 30%. but you got rid of your mortgage deduction, charitable deduction. you'd be paying more at the 30% than the 35%. but the problem is this, harold, they can't go home again because the tea party will have a necktie party if they walk home and say, i promised you guys again, we broke our promises again. we raised taxes. good-bye and good luck. they will lose dozens of members of the house if they do that. and some of the senators will be challenged as they were the last time. they can't do it in the house. 235 house members, harold. signed the no new taxes pledge. >> do you think republicans could live with making all of the bush tax cuts as it relates to the earners, permanent, but raising the rates on the top earners and changing the rates on the hedge fund managers. >> the clinton 39.6. >> change the number from 250 to 400. 400 for individual, 800 for a couple. that's something that the republican party. >> they can't do it for a reason that you guys would get it at 400. start walking back down to 200 which is where you wan it to go. >> half a million individual, a million couple. 400 and 800. that's on the table with some of the discussion around the biden plan. >> why would you do that when you win this battle. it's a poker game. excuse me, it's a poker game. you doan same, hey, let's split the pot, willie. >> i hope obama was listening to clinton over the weekend. he said do not blink. >> he told who not to blink. >> pat buchanan, talk about this being a poker game. a poker game with people's lives. i'm going to read a must read that i think will make some cringe but it's a good point. paul krugman says this -- 6 >> come on. >> let's take the corporate jets. you know what the number one export is? aircraft and space. we sell these things abroad. we make the best planes in the world. you get them with 100 taxes you. ear going to hurt the business. the business will start to move abroad as all of the other businesses have. this is, excuse me, the same liberal demagoguery that got us in the mess. >> you have to know one thing. it's not going to solve the problem. $3 billion a year for the corporate jet. you can't, in good conscious, look me in the eye -- >> as far as reporting. >> these are jets. these are guys -- by closing el motionally, it's the right thing to do. >> is there some story, some concept -- the little guy is giving the big idea one of the most simplistic human rights, what is right? >> let me tell you in the little guy. bay water boats. they made 100 boats a year. the great big beautiful yachts near gigantic things. i can never own one, could never build one. they put the luxury tax on. they're building one a month. all of the guys are out of jobs. they've moved the production to mexico. they move it out -- this is a global economist. >> the corporate jets are helping the little guys. >> do you think -- >> you're saying they shouldn't have them. why should they get tax breaks? and why -- by the way, this is -- >> deduction. >> it's -- >> can i ask you -- >> i do understand this. can i ask you a basic -- >> sure. >> human tenet. do you think conception, forget you're a republican, he's a democrat, i'm a democrat. conceptionally, look at the numbers that maybe everybody should give a little bit. maybe we're asking and we know we have to make entitlements that hedge fund managers, corporations, they're making $1 million a year. conceptionally. forget reagan a reaganomics. >> i'm a small business guy, self-employed. the first $50,000 i make, it send 56% of it to the government before you pay property taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes and them you tell me half of the country pays zero taxes, a government that adds 25% of gdp. you have socialism here. this is what's bringing down western civilization. >> 51% of the people do not pay zero tax. they pay payroll tax, social security -- >> no income tax. >> if you want to trade with them, they'll make that trade any day of the week. i don't know what you make a year, but i know you make a lot more. >> you want half of the country to be free loading? >> they're not. they're paying payroll taxes like you and i do. >> income tax, 5%. >> pat, i don't have a problem. as long as you make those -- build those corporate jets and make the hedge funds managers to pay their fair share. if you make what they make, pat, and you pay the share of income to a taxes that they pay, i promise you you'd be far more upset than you are today making -- >> well, let me tell you, they don't have a 747 corporate jet like barack obama and michelle obama. they got a whole fleet of them. i've been on those planes. >> are you suggesting that the president of the united states should not have a 747. >>. to fly out of philly. >> the commander of the free world -- the commander in chief -- are you serious. >> a corporate jet enables these jets to fly around europe. you want to take them down to props, fine. it's silly. this is one of america's foremost businesses. i don't fly on them. our buddy mort zuckerman does. >> those people not paying taxes, that 51%. they will trade. >> i want to go around the table before we go to a break. yes or no, given the factf oh the headline we heard this morning about what the white house is preparing to do to get a little bit here. should the repibbs give a little bit? assume yes. yes. should they give a little bit on the tax issue? >> keep the commitment to the american people. >> oh, lord. >> run for office again. >> this guy can't get him -- you can't pin him. >> but he represents -- this is good. you're a little outnumbered today, pat, with joe being on. we want to hear what you have to say. >> i take the interesting thing, saturday night in nobu in east hampton, when he was trying to make his way with the more liberal female set, he was singing a very, very different story. that's all i'm saying. >> rock star. >> tax increases for everybody. he was the toast. he was the toast. >> good lord. up next, former president bill clinton pits his advice on the debt ceiling debate. one of the top stories in the political playbook. we're going to bring in congressman jim cleburne and eugene robinson. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> i love pat. doesn't matter how many people are at the table. he's not changing his opinion. he's not budging. i hope you had a wonderful fourth of july week even. the weather cooperating in many cases. hopefully in virginia the rain didn't wash out your picnic plans. it's warm. a good forecast today. it's hot. temperatures from 90 degrees from new york to hartford down to dc. no rain, leave the umbrella at home. the rest of the country, slight chance of storms in the minneapolis area down to south dakota. very hot around dallas. tranquil weather week around the country. don't expect too much drama. a lot of that big yellow globe in the sun like this morning in new york city. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. 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[ grunts ] the possibilities are endless. interesting... save up to 50% this tuesday and wednesday only. hotels.com. be smart. book smart. we're putting them to the test against the speed of a rescue unit. go ! they're downloading a music album. the first network to finish gets rescued. does your phone know that we're racing ? done ! verizon's done ! i've got seven left ! the fastest network in america. verizon. built so you can rule the air. now powering the lg revolution. 22 past the hour. live look at the white house. time now to take a look at the morning papers. we'll start with the new york times. once little noticed outcome of the 2010 elections, the number of women in congress, actually, declined by a small fraction for the first time in 30 years. that has prompted senator kiersten jillen brand's latest effort, to get more women in politics. she's launched a project called "off of the sidelines" she hopes will energize women across the country. >> maybe they should read your book. >> thank you, donnie. >> it's good. >> "usa today" in what will be a test of his legacy, former major league pitcher clemens begins his testimony that he lied to congress when he denied using illegal steroids and growth hormone. >> financial times condoleezza rice helped to unveil a picture of ronald reagan. former reagan's speech writer peggy noonan was there for the ceremony. the 10-foot bronze statue commemorates the 100th anniversary of reagan's birth. >> good looking statue. >> nice. surprised you weren't there, pat. a little politico. with us, the chief white house correspondent is mr. mike allen with a look at the latest playbook. >> hello, mike. >> happy fourth of july weekend to you. did you do anything exciting? >> sparklers, cookouts, the whole deal. >> a cache of illegal fireworks from new hampshire. >> shh. >> bet you did. >> talk a little business here. bill clinton, donny mentioned him a minute ago, weighed in on the debt talks this weekend. he called for a cut in the corporate tax rate. what's the latest on that? >> this is very fascinating in a surprise appearance at the ask ideas festival. he hopes for a megadeal on the debt that it would include a cut in the corporate tax rate. he said in my presidency in the favorite phrase, of course, in my pregnancy, he raised the corporate tax in that sense. what's fascinating is he said several times he doesn't see how a deal like this gets done by august 2. there's more and more talk of this mini deal always punting for a few months that allows something complicated that would change corporate taxes. >> we do a mini deal, we punt, we have to do a mini deal. we have to do a series of mini deals. are we capable of doing a maxi deal at one point. >> one of the reasons the administration is not saying they want it done by july 22, two reasons for that. one is it allows time to get all of the mechanics through the legislative machinery. but also the markets don't wait until august 2 to become worried and rea kt to that. they start to freak out at some unknown point before that when they think congress is not going to act. it allows a little time for if republicans have to do something that's going to scare the markets to quickly recover, sort of like they did voting down t.a.r.p. and voting for it. there's so many of the freshmen republicans, especially, locked in to different pledges that makes it hard to give the leaders the flexibility to do this sort of deal that needs to be done. >> president clinton pointing out the pledge they all signed with grover norquist, all 235 of them. >> this was -- >> go ahead, mike. >> president clinton several times mentioned grover norquist, the head of the tax reform and the enforcer of pledges saying he thinks he had a chilling effect on republicans to get permission before they raise revenues. >> what's the deal? why are they so beholden to him. >> they took his pledge mr. i pledge not to raise taxes, 235 of them. it's about issues in an election having done so. i don't know if it's grover norq norquist per se -- they said six months ago, i'm not going to raise them, i've now raised them. they're done. the tea party people and the other people will punish them and run candidates against them. >> what is the tipping point where you never heard this guy's name before. >> he's been around for a long time. >> not to this degree where he's had the holy grail. >> the tax pledge since the reagan era. >> didn't matter. >> when you take it, what you say is what harold and i were talking about. i was going to say, look, i was going to raise tariffs and i cut other taxes because i think the tax code needs to be changed. but the revenue of the country, republicans believe 18% to 19%, or 20%, which would be at full employment, that's as high as you go, but with the state revenue at 12 or 13, that's as high as you go before the government kills the government economy. >> grover norquist live with a reduced corporate tax rate, higher workers and if congress had to allow the rates on top earners and say you raise it for half a million, is that something they can deal with? >> a net tax increase, no. bill clinton is right. we've got the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. what sense does that make if you're competitive -- corporations go abroad because you have lower rates. >> twitter town hall with president obama. what's going on there? >> tomorrow in the east room, the white house is now 140 characters in the east room. 140 people, same moment for the number of characters. >> last -- >> that's the last one coming up. >> casey running into it. >> the first grade for everything. >> by the way, mike, did you hear? the vice president has a twitter account now? >> i did. >> @vp. >> come on, they don't twitter themselves. >> welcome to the twitterverse. they tweeted a message to the armed forces. this is an example of how the white house is showing the tech savviness. the president will have three screens, one with the question, one with the heat map of the country where the tweets are coming from and a topic map showing what topics are trending so he can dip in. >> do you tweet? >> not limbed to 140 characters. they're going to print a summary. >> vice president biden is going to do his own tweeting -- >>@vp. >> i don't want him wanting that. >> i do. oh, i do. >> could be fun. coming up, the case against him collapses in new york where it's collapsing the new york -- in new york. the former imf head dominique strauss kahn learns he could face new charges, back home in france. a single spectator caused all kinds of problems at the tour de france. sports next. [ p.a. announcer ] announcing america's favorite cereal is now honey nut cheerios! yup, america's favorite. so we're celebrating the honey sweetness, crunchy oats and... hey! don't forget me!! honey nut cheerios. make it your favorite too! welcome back to "morning joe," 33 past the hour. a live look as the sun comes up. a brief look at the news for you. officials at exxon mobile are now acknowledging that an oil spill in the yellowstone river could spread farther than thought. landowners along the river went 140 miles downstream from yellowstone national park are furious after a pipeline that runs under the river burst over the weekend. oil is coating parts of river banks near billings and laurel. exxon's president vows to do whatever is necessary to clean up the tens oz thousands of gallons of spilled crude. while exxon says harm to animals so far is negligible, new photos of the billings gazette show some of the river's wild life covered in oil. some of the flood waters in the yellow stone river may have slammed debris to the pipeline, rupturing it, and causing the leak. dominique strauss kahn is facing new sexual assault accusations from a french writer who says the former imf chief tried to rape her back in 2002. strauss kahn said he'll sue the journalists for slander if she files charges. the man faces sexual assault charges in new york for abusing a hotel maid. that is in jeopardy because of new questions about the accuser's credibility. this has so many levels of controversy. it's marking a change in france in terms of how politicians and leaders are looked at in terms of the way they treat women. >> regardless of whether the maid had a problem or not, he has a history. >> it's socially accepted by the way. >> this scandal may not have the teeth, this is clearly not a guy of any character. >> maybe they shouldn't haul him off to reiker's island. maybe they should release him on his own recognizance. he's got millions of dollars, high bail. i agree. i don't know what went on in the hotel room, but not a corporate work of mercy there. hear the reports from france about this guy. so i think he's a bad guy. if the french want to elect their guy. >> i think they're arguing -- >> i agree with pat and donny. >> is it today she starts as the head of the imf. christine lagard takes over today as the head of the imf. interesting, fascinating, dinner table controversy for sure. >> what's fascinating about it? >> there's arguments on both sides. >> schwarzenegger and weiner, these stories you couldn't write. if you wanted to create fiction about politicians. >> it's pig -- >> it's easy -- it's worse than the fiction that you would write, these stories. >> your point is well taken. a real tolerance for the nonsense in france. >> absolutely. >> whereas it's not. maybe we overdid it. >> you read the coverage of this story, it may mark a shift in how much this type of behavior is accepted in france. it is accepted. >> they're attacking "the new york post" and "new york daily news." >> interesting. >> the silvio berlusconi story shows approval. his rating among women in italy is down 28 pact. >> he's a pig. another pig. all right, willie, sports. do some sports. division leaders, the yankees and the indians playing a fourth of july game in cleveland. derek jeter back in the lineup for the first time since he went on a disabled list with a calf injury last month. in the leadoff spot yesterday. startles with a slow roll to third. reached on an error. six hits shy of 3,000. top of the 7th now, nix willshire sends one to the gap. breaks a tie in the pitcher's duel. yankees go up 2-0. in the bottom of the seventh, a big play. a pop fly to foul territory, a-rod goes back for it. neither gets it. it should have been the last out of the inning. the hitter, though, reached on a walk. and the next batter, shelly duncan makes the yankees pay. single to right field makes it a one-run game. still two outs. same inning, the innings should have been over. austin kearns is with the yankees for a little while. the three-run home run opposite field. indians going to beat the yankees, 6-3. a tough way to lose here. royals and white sox, chicago's adam dunn has just one hit off of a left-handed pitcher all season. this was his second. the white sox giving a standing ovation. he laughs and tips his cap as he got a hit off of the left-hander. in the eighth inning, this time off of dunn, a two-run home run, chicago a 4-3 lead this time. a little bit more worthy tip of the cap. watch this, bottom of the ninth, tie game at two outs, white sox on second and third. the home plate umpire calls a balk. and that's how the game ends. on aaron crow, the pitcher. >> a couple of weeks ago, the mets. >> the mets, a walkoff win for the white sox over the royals. you hate to lose that way. the white sox win, 5-4. going to smooth the start from the washington national's $126 million man jason worth. hitting .224, booed by the home fans. nationals against the cubs. two outs in the fourth. runners on the corner. alfonso soriano loops one in right field. the outfield including worth standing there looking at each other. two runs score in the play. worth did get a chance to redeem himself. carlos payne trying to score from second base. worth comes up throwing. guns the runner down at the plate. great throw, great tag. this is extra innings on third base. this is the walkoff wild pitch. worst comes home to score the game winner, nationals win, 5-4. the former team in phillies in south florida against the marl marlins. watch this play. what, what? what just happened there. a grounder up the middle goes off of the glove of handley ramirez. check it out again. omar infante bare hands it. grows to first. incredible play. this is the fifth inning. emilio bonofatsio tossed. jack mckeeian getting in the phillies' face. dominick brown scores from second. the throwdown time, that's the only run of the game. philly, the best team in baseball, win 1-0. a rough start to the tour de france this weekend. watch what happens when a spectator gets too close to the action. need you to stand just back off of the road, folks. cyclist gets clipped and takes out everybody around him. these things have a chain reaction effect. dozens of racers end up tangled on the ground in a massive pileup all because of the one spectator. >> what did the person do? >> just wandering out in front of the tour de france. how could he have known. only 300 bicycles coming his way. but yesterday, the first american rider wins a tour stage on the fourth of july. >> someone tried to do that in my daughter's track meet. >> run on the track. >> like a crazy person. >> he was just standing there. >> what did he do? >> i horrified everybody. but he got out of the way. >> have mika as your mom at a track meet screaming. jim clyburn and next, the must-read opinion pages. richard cohen said the republican party should be studied by a mental health official. introducing the schwab mobile app. it's schwab at your fingertips wherever, whenever you want. one log in lets you monitor all of your balances and transfer between accounts, so your money can move as fast as you do. check out your portfolio, track the market with live updates. and execute trades anywhere and anytime the inspiration hits you. even deposit checks right from your phone. just take a picture, hit deposit and you're done. open an account today and put schwab mobile to work for you. i'm already talking to national security people, talking to former generals, people in the military to begin to develop ideas about how i would deal with the crises that we're in. you don't need foreign policy experience to tell you who the enemies are and you doan need foreign policy experience to know that you doan tell your enemy what your next move is. >> morning joe, 45 past the hour. time now for must-read opinion pages. good ones. going to get pat going. pat, you're not going to like this one. this is richard cohen, "washington post." but i think it raises a very important question. first i'll read it. someone ought to see the republican party. to a mental health professional. a specialist in the power of sensations and the like, the gop needs an intervention. it's become a cult. in order to become a republican, one has to take a pledge. the intellectual rigidity has produced a gop presidential field that's a political jones town. the grand ole party so named when it evoked america has so narrowed the base when it's become a political cult. it's a redoubt of certainty over reason. that's an extreme description except over the past couple of years, the president has given on major issues and promises from gitmo to the war in afghanistan. he's given on taxes. he mised a huge opportunity in my opinion there. why can't the republicans just open their minds a little bit, give a little bit. go back on a commitment to make something happen. >> obama is wrong. >> he's not wrong. >> he had a $780 billion stimulus. the $700 billion tarp, three deficits for $1.5 trillion. we have the fete pumping in $600 billion. it hasn't worked. and so it hasn't -- if it hasn't worked, cohen calls this a cult. the cult won 63 seats. six months ago. what happened to his party. >> thankfully we didn't listen to republicans on the carr industry without the investment the american people made, we would have lost gm, chrysler, ford, and lost our ability on the global stage too. thank god we ignored the republicans when it came to saving the financial system without it. it was the right thing to do for them to pay them back. but what i want to know, ray torically, is where was the team party when bush ran the debt up. they were absent. this isn't as much political as it is substance. i don't doubt they have considerable republicans winning. if america is bigger, more important than a party. this moment requires a different kind of political calculus. republicans bring it to the debate. >> in a way you might not have liked, an inflammatory way. but that's the main point. >> i agree, the manufacturing industry. as a matter of fact, i think bush and his father and the others who went for the globalization have basically destroyed manufacturing. lost half a million jobs in the last decade. twice as many people working in government as in manufacturing. some of the things were not all together wrong. but i think this -- when obama has tried and just like what you can say what bush did in 2000 and 2008 didn't work. what obama tried done work. they've made a commitment. they're saying the problem is that the government at 25% of gdp, the feds, and about 15% state and local, government is killing the private sector. there's a crisis all over the world of too much commitment everywhere in the world. >> the government is feeling the private sector. >> profits are thriving. don't get me wrong. >> they're making more money than ever before. >> to suggest that government and obama's policies are killing the private sector is just wrong. there are no facts in this. >> tell me why real wages have -- >> they're private. >> real wages of working americans have been virtually frozen since the mid 1970s. >> you explain something to me why -- we're going to get to this, why the ceo play is up 23% in the last year and the average wager is up .5%. so this concept about -- >> spending it. >> the corporations make money and trickles down. doesn't seem to be happening. >> i tell you why, the corporations for the last 20 years have been taking their factories out of the united states and moving them to china where you have low wages and no regulations, profits soar, they come back, the money goes in to dividends to guys like you and me and me, corporate profits soar, and working class guys are competing against the lowest wage workers in the world because of globalization. >> i agree with you in part. that's one of the reasons i think this -- these big corporate folks are not releasing money, they're uncertain on regulation and taxes. but to suggest that barack obama's policies have somehow harmed or -- >> they haven't worked. >> i disagree with you fully. the voters will have a choice about this. how do you spur hiring? you have to decrease the amount of regulations, lower the taxes, make it easier to build factories. that's the conversation i wish the president would have. >> you tell me, harold. why should a washington business guy going to build a factory to an american making $20 an hour here. civil rights laws, environmental laws, local laws, all these things, forget that. put the factory in china, we'll take down our competition because it will cost us a fraction of that. bring the products back to the u.s., sell them here, kill your competition, but get your factory out of the united states because it's the highest cost production area in the world. we want american consumers, we don't want american workers. >> we've got to change that. we have to figure out how to scale a manufacturer in this country. >> ask yourself how you got into this. >> can make it easier to build factories. they found a cheaper way to do it. >> where do they get the material. >> they get the material from the u.s. and overseas. >> and they sew it here. >> that's the jobs. we have to figure out -- >> we lost 2/3. >> the answer is not to go backwards, but it's to look at the new technology, look at information and say where are the jobs. we're never going to get back to manufacturer. >> not with present policy. >> it has to do with wages around the world versus this country. new technologies, new businesses. >> there are ways to build factories in this country. can't do it like we did 25 years ago. but you can't tell me what we're doing in detroit, the renaissance, the fact that -- >> detroit? >> we control 5% of the battery production market in the world. today it's 20%. why? we're manufacturing. >> how -- >> how detroit they're going to pasturize a fourth of the city. >> what i do love about this conversation is it shows how complicated it all is. we'll be right back. willie, you have something for me? >> nothing. >> yeah, you uh do. in here, the planned combination of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities, giving them a new choice. we'll deliver better service, with thousands of new cell sites... for greater access to all the things you want, whenever you want them. it's the at&t network... and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say. you know that comes with a private island. really? no. it comes with a hat. you see, airline credit cards promise flights for 25,000 miles, but... 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[ male announcer ] jetta tdi clean diesel. the turbo that gets 42 miles per gallon. ♪ encouraging news, pat. there's some places where american greatness lives. like hot dog eating. >> yes. >> hot dog eating. >> gross. >> 27-year-old joey chestnut. >> joey. >> winning the fifth consecutive title. this guy is what do you want to call him? michael jordan, tiger woods, all rolled into one. >> i don't want to watch. >> he dips them in water and inhales them. yesterday, over ten minutes, he ate 62 hot dogs in ten minutes. 62. >> when he goes to the locker room, they follow and turn right. >> right. >> that's a champion. >> stop it. >> get this off. >> jimmy johns. >> gross. >> little shy of his 2009 record where he ate 68 hot dolls in ten minutes when $10,000. should get more than $10,000 for the effort. >> no. >> there's a little controversy here because kobayashi for a long time was joey's greatest competitor has been banned from the nathan's hot dog eating competition because he refews to sign an exclusive deal with major league eating. he's a rebel. >> who's the other organization? >> he's a mercenary. >> a free lancer. >> so, this is him yesterday simultaneously at his own event where he ate 69 hot dogs in ten minutes. that's unofficial, because, you know, it wasn't there done under the governing body. >> what else, willie, what else? >> wouldn't want to be sitting in the floor with that guy. >> so joey chestnut does it again. kobayashi, just sign the deal. we want to see you guys in the ring together. >> no. >> get the two heavyweights together. >> up next, congressman jim clyburn. ♪ ♪ you are my sunshine ♪ my only sunshine ♪ you makes me happy ♪ when skies are grey ♪ you'll never know, dear ♪ how much i love you ♪ please don't take my sunshine away ♪ [ male announcer ] as long as there are babies, they'll be chevy's to bring them home. ♪ they'll be chevy's to bring them home. ...was it something big? ...or something small? ...something old? ...or something new? ...or maybe, just maybe... it's something you haven't seen yet. the 2nd generation of intel core processors. stunning visuals, intelligent performance. this is visibly smart. every day you live with the pain of moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis could be another day you're living with joint damage. help stop the damage before it stops you by asking your rheumatologist about humira. for many adult patients with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis humira has been proven to help relieve pain and stop joint damage. humira's use in patients with ra has been evaluated in multiple studies during the past 14 years. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal events can occur such as, infections, lymphoma or other types of cancer, blood, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before starting humira, your doctor should test you for tb. ask your doctor if you live or have been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. tell your doctor if you have had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have symptoms such as fever, fatigue, cough, or sores. you should not start humira if you have any kind of infection. make today the day you talk to your rheumatologist. and ask how you can defend against and help stop further joint damage with humira. i don't think there's any question of the progress of the last year, the taking away of important safe haivens inside afghanistan from the taliban. there's clearly tough work and fighting that lies ahead. i repeatedly said while the progress is significant, for example, it remains fragile and reversible. general david patreaus spending his eighth fourth of july and his last as commander of allied forces in afghanistan visiting the troops in the southern part of that country yesterday. welcome back to morning joe, pat buchanan and gerald ford with us. best-selling author and wes moore, good to have you on the show this morning. patreaus will start the new job as director of the cia in september. he talks about the hard work ahead. the changes in the troops. any gut feeling about how that will transpire? >> one transition we'll see is as we're leaving the 10,000 and the 20,000, how that's going to change in terms of troop alignment and geoloe geography. we'll see a shift towards the east to the pakistan border. that's where i spent my time. we're starting to see a lot of the flow from fighters coming from pakistan. >> let me ask you, drawn down 33,000 troops by september of next year, good shape in kandahar and helmand province. how can you maintain momentum and win a war when you're pulling out 1/3 of the best soldiers you've got. >> a couple of things, one, we're having as we had with a bond conference in 2001. what's interesting is as we were talking about troop deployments and actual mission and strategy, we're in the process of escalating the troop numbers. now we're having the reconciliation with the taliban and networks, etc., as we're decelerating. that factors in to the larger conversation. the second thing that's important to remember about the troop assignments is how many will be combat troops or support troops. what are the areas you're going to pen trade in to and hold on to the areas as well. >> "the new york times" reporting this morning that the obama administration officials believe that pakistan's spy agency ordered the killing of a pakistani journalist. the times says newly classified intelligence shows senior officials at isi directed the attack on salim shahzad. he wrote scathing reports about the infiltration of militants to the country's military in may, just days after he went missing, his body was found outside of islamabad. the exposure could strain the u.s.'s worsening relationship with pakistan since the killing of osama bin laden. the white house is looking in to how the u.s. will present the intelligence to pakistan's leadership. we'll be following that. willie? moving on to some 2012 news, several 2012 candidates taking part in celebrations in primary and caucus states in new hampshire and iowa all in an effort to shore up critical early support in new hampshire. mitt romney continued to hammer president obama in the economy. he said the president, quote, failed us, because the recession is deeper because of our president. but when asked if he agreed with the assessment, former governor john huntsman skirted the issue focusing on what he and his fellow candidates can offer voters. >> some are you are republicans, independents, unaffiliated. i understand that. all i can say is take a look at where we've been, done, and stand for, where we hope to take the country, make an informed decision, then come back and talk to us. a. >> rivals bachmann toured new england. gingrich said he's committed to spending 16 days in iowa over the next two months. and former godfather's pizza ceo her man cane headed to philadelphia where he made a speech to the members of the tea party. president obama marks his third fourth of july with the commander in chief with the military of the white house. let's go back briefly. we haven't talked to you in a couple of weeks about michelle bachmann. >> she explode in the new hampshire debate. i think there's a huge part of that. the tea party, conservative side of the parisi is wide open. she is going to be the alternative to the candidate right now. i think unless perry gets in from texas, not sure he's going to get in. can i tell you a story about new hampshire? i went through two of the mile-long parades in new hampshire, 100-degree temperature. you walk in the park afterwards to speak. bob dole was ahead of maine and i said, bob, how was it? he said, pat, i missed the first bataan death march, but i made this one. blazing hot in new hampshire. >> there's controversy over the deficit, the argument in the august 2 deadline. joining us, this conversation from columbia, south carolina, democratic representative and assistant leader jim clyburn. good to have you onboard, sir. first the news with the house and the senate. >> thank you for having me. >> good to have you. >> we're heading back to the hills this week after cutting the congressional recess short to work on deficit negotiations as democrats and republicans try to reach a deal. the "new york times" reports that the white house is offering to cut tens of billions of dollars from medicare and medicaid as part of those ongoing talks. that's a pretty big piece of news. the times says the money will come from health care providers without directly imposing new costs for patients and regularly changing the programs. however, the depths of the cuts depends on whether republicans are willing to accept any increases in tax revenue. regarding that discussion, t"th wall street journal" says deficit talks focuses on taxes. they push proposals that could raise tax revenue by some $400 billion in the next decade. repibb leaders say they don't want increases. but some party members seem more open to eliminating tax breaks. democratic senator kent comrade is expecteded to announce as early as this week. he could cut more than $40 million from the deficit. so, are we going to get movement on the issue of taxes in exchange to what the white house might be putting forward. >> i think we will. remember, i said way back that we had gone 85%, 90% of the way there. what you read from "the new york times" may be news for the newspaper and for the readers. but it's not new to this discussion. we had those discussions, those things were on the table. but our agreement was nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to. so those three issues that are laid out in "the new york times" this morning or yesterday are issues that we did, in fact, discuss, had them on the table, and they were getting, i would say, a pretty positive reviews among democrats. though i'll give credit, henry waxman and a few others did not agree to that because some people think that in one of those issues, it would -- it would hurt. >> harold ford jr., is there a time just logistically for a deal? or is there going to have to be a short term sfwhun. >> i hope there's time for a big deal. but it sounds like the time might be closing. leader, clyburn, good to see you. harold ford this morning. we're going back and forth. >> how are you. >> the likelihood of a shorter tell deal where you take some elements of the ideas, send some bowles, biden. the game of six. comrades' new deal. then you get something and come back and do a larger package. is some framework like that on the table? >> that was not on the table with us. but we did, in fact, harold, talk about what would happen if we could not get something done. but we'll all raise focus in those meetings on getting something done that will last through 2012. some stability in the markets. and have restored confidence among consumers. you exacerbate the problem as far as i'm concerned. we never focus on that at all. though it may be what it gets down to if they can't do a big deal. >> congressman, the markets are amazingly unpredictable. what exactly do you tell people when they look at the fact that we're weeks away from the deadline that's been stated and they say, well, the markets are continuing to rise, the markets are continuing to rise. what argument do you make back to that? >> just as things dropped over the cliff rapidly, i was in the room back there in september, '08 when henry paulsen came in with his dire predictions. and nobody saw that coming. i think that all of us agree that irrespective of what may be taking place in the markets today, if you don't have some degree of certainty, you aren't going to have the kind of stability that you want. and we are too uncertain at the rate we're going. we need to have some certainty put in to this process. and i really think that we're really close. i think everybody knows that there must be some raising of revenues. and if we get there, could be easy. closing loopholes to get to $400 billion in revenue raises. but if you consider the -- the closing loopholes, raising taxes, then that keeps us from having tin the -- i wouldn't use that word, it keeps us in a good conversation about whether to go from here. that's the problem here. defining, revenue raises that are no more than closing loopholes for people who have taken jobs overseas and getting rid of these extended rates for people, corporate jets, that sort of thing, as raising taxes. >> here we go. >> that's the problem that we have. >> all right, congressman, leader clyburn, pat buchanan now. he's going to have a question for you. i'm sure it' going to be a polite one. >> congressman? >> yes, sir. congressman boehner has 235 people. in your bill, do you think congressman boehner will try to lead the republicans to accepting what many consider tax hikes or will he side with the caucus and say no new taxes and that is it? >> i would hope not, pat. i was a freshman once too. i told myself after my first session in congress, i would never sign another pledge. good friends are upset because i haven't done so. i didn't do that anymore. because people who make up the pledges put their own interpretation on them echlt. i'm convinced that a lot of people who signed that pledge did not know that they would be considered as raising tax ifs you close the loophole. i know a lot of tea party people who are against us having the tax loopholes for people to send jobs overseas. i know some of the people. they're against that. on the other hand, they're being told, no, no, no -- that's going to be considered raising taxes. so i think those people got themselves in pretty difficult situation. and that's what john boehner has to deal with. because i think he knows that those people are very sensitive to doing something to right the economic ship that we are sailing here. and, so, i think he is going to decide to let half of the caucus go and work with one half open them and we need to work with one half of our progress. we can get to 218 with both sides putting their hands on the hot story at the same time. >> well said. congress, willie geist here. >> clear enough. >> you said a moment ago you're close, you think, to a deal with republicans and you went on to say that republicans were not willing to buget on taxes. how do we reconcile those two ideas. a side that's not willing to move toward you, do you have to work towards them? >> it's some republicans. i talked to a lot of republicans who believed, as i do, that closing tax loopholes should not be considered as raising taxes. i think there are enough republican there is who like to close the loopholes. so, no, not all republicans. and i'm sensitive to that. i do believe that people ought to be left alone when they have to do certain things and make certain votes based upon their constituents. but i think there is a number that mr. boehner can get to that in his caucus that would make it a bipartisan bill. we ought not be doing this expecting only republican votes. i think that both parties need to put skin in the game. i think we should do something that would get us half of our focus. they ought to do something that would get at least half of their caucus and move forward on this thing. let's do a big deal. let's show the american people that things can work. >> on that point before we go to break. i know that -- the republicans got to go back to the constituents. if they can get a bipartisan deal and everybody can put their hands on the hot stove, wouldn't america get behind that? >> i don't know about america. but i can tell you this, boehner splits his caucus like that, and he goes over there with half his folks to raise taxes, that is ball game for john boehner, i'll tell you. it's going to be a lot of republicans who can't go home again. >> congressman -- >> even if they balance the budget, raise the debt ceiling, and get the economy out of the cave. >> all that wonderful stuff, harold. >> okay. >> that says something. >> jim clyburn, thank you so much. good to see you. >> up next, let the good times roll for america's ceos. okay. yeah, pat, you're going to have fun with this next segment. a new study shows executive pay skyrocketing in the recession. we'll talk about that. you're watching "morning joe." 20 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." "the new york times" published a story on executive pay finding that the chief executives are better than many thought despite the recession. the columnist for "the new york times," good to have you, you go as p.j. >> easier to say. >> first of all, walk us through this. we have stunning numbers. but there's some interest iing reasons why as well. pay for companies in the year 2010. $10.8 million, 23% increase in 2009. why are some of the reasons why? >> the ceos saw huge increases. it's been a few months since we ended the recession. >> why such a big jump? >> a lot has to do with bonuses. they were up 38% in the companies we looked at. for 2008 and 2009, many of the companies did not award bonuses to the ceos. now that the economy is slightly turning around, huge jumps in bonuses. some of it is making the pay going on. the ceos were suffering in the 2008-2009 recession, now things are coming back, they're awarding them bonuses in both cash and stock. >> a lot of the companies the stock is going through the roof. stock has tripled. i got no problem. let's pay the top guy. the issue i have is the company is going backwards and the big money -- >> yes, we looked at that happening. and obviously profits are up, which is a part of this. but let's look at the average worker's pay. the average american, $752 a week. that's up 5% from 2009. .5%. but actually it's not really a gain because of inflation. >> inflation was 3% last year. so the average worker is making less than they were in 2009. >> that's a big disparity. especially if you look at the big-paying media companies, oil commodities, technology. look at the numbers in the salaries. you think of the american worker. what is -- what do you think the biggest question or concern should arise. why should people care there's a disparity at this point. >> the ceo is partly responsible for the company's success or partly responsible for the stock coming back. workers have a lot of -- target has 350,000 workers. if it wasn't for the workers stocking the shelves and ringing up the cash registers, the company would not necessarily be doing well. so one person all -- ultimately only responsible for the company's success, or is it all of the employees that are part of the success? >> of course, it's all the people. the problem you have is shareholders -- the word shareholder value. so, you're someone who invests in the company. you're not concerned about the workers. you're concerned about them keeping costs down. we live in a quarter-to-quarter world, it's an unfortunate reality. it's a disparity. it's not fair. this is one of the funks of capitalism. >> is it really? >> yes, unfortunately. >> could it be -- i understand it's a function of capitalism, could it promote a bigger problem in our society. >> yes, yes, and yes. >> it's supposed to be correlated with what the stock is doing. but my colleague last month interviewed, interviewed an independent pay and they studied it and found the thing in the universe of 200 companies, they looked at 179 companies were not correlated -- correlated with stock options, the stock values. many of the companies' stocks fell but the ceos got raises. >> that's what i was saying. >> in 1950 or so, you had 31% of the labor force was in manufacturing, the highest paid working class, middle class, blue collar jobs there were. it's now down to 9% in manufacturing. you mentioned these folks at target, 300,000 people. aren't they paying them that wage because they can get them for that wage? >> yes, it's a tough economy as mi mikka pointed out. the unemployment is 9%. if you have a job, you're not pressing for raises right now. >> globalization really helped the american worker -- the american worker all that much? >> in some sense, it has. but a lot of specialization. a lot for the internet boom because we're able to concentrate more efforts on, you know, the higher tech jobs. >> what's the median income of the american worker since 1975. how far has that gone up. >> really stagnated. >> for 35 years? >> yes. >> you take the advertising agency. i ran a company for years and years and years. it's that basically we lost jobs when the recession happened. you're not re-creating the jobbings. you're running leaner and mea r meaner. >> making bonuses, making profits, and you're not hiring. >> a lot of this is cut out and now that profits are up, it's not being put back in. >> that's the simple math. >> 35 years is the reason why american workers have seen no real increase in their wages in real terms for 35 years. >> well, a ceo can certainly press the boards for pay increases. but it's much harder for the workers to press. there are some places that have unions. but, you know, even the places that have unions are seeing wages stagnating. the ceos have more -- >> the whole economy doubled and tripled in size and the workers have gotten no relate invees in wages. why? >> i think i know the answer. but i would like to ask my friend pj, which is my initials, pj buchanan. i would like to ask her the question. >> part of it is yes. there's been pressure to keep increasing profits and some of that is at the cost of the workerings. some of that cost is workers' salaries. >> for decades, the american earners went up and up. >> what's your point? >> my point is -- >> globalization. what your friend bush did? what your point? >> globalization. you're exporting basic manufacturing base in the united states where all of the guys have the greatest jobs in the world. >> i agree with you. but if i eep a calltalist and i report to my shareholder and i'm making these glasses and i can go to bangladesh to get a worker to work for 1/20th as they do for the united states you can do it. the answer is not to bang on the drums, we need to find technologies, green technologies. where people can't compete with us. that game is over. that game is over. you can't cry anymore to america, love it or leave it. >> if that's over, america is over. >> just like we want from an agrean society to a production society to an information society. >> wouldn't you rather have employees creating jobs in six figures, programming the things, creating up the greatest products. >> we always had that with the seen yuss making money. we always have that. what we have now we didn't have is a gigantic working class whose standard of living has stagnated or declined and that's going to present an enormous social problem for this country. >> god, pat, you're right. >> yeah. >> he's going past democrat. he's -- he's -- >> right. >> you liberal. >> go back to alexander hamilton and those folks you need know how to build an economy. >> where's the moral responsibility and the part of the companies, people making the profits. they have to look at their shareholders. >> corporations. >> stop looking at them -- we have to stop being naive and looking at the corporations to act any other way than profit-seeking businesses. >> should pay a living wage. >> exact lil right. >> you're darn right. >> p.j., thank you. aren't you gad you came in. >> sure. >> good to have you. great piece. fascinating. i'd like to see more of that. an interesting conversation. it's more complicated. not black and white. you can check out the analysis in this past new york time's business section. coming up, republicans are hostage takers in the ongoing budget negotiations. pulitzer prize-winning columnist will be here. we'll be right back with more "morning you jo." 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>> ten years. she had five kids along the way. >> that's busy. >> that's impressive. >> to say the least. >> got in the book a tad bit. >> tell us about the book that has an amazing cast of characters. >> 197 characters, mostly men. system of the women are so great that they stand out. my favorite is the secretary of state william henry sue hard. he's a great monster that started out making a few mistakes in the beginning but became one of the great secretary of states and preserved peace between the u.s. and europe. >> let's go back and start with the premise of the book. britain's crucial role in the american civil war. the casual american probably doesn't understand how crucial a role britain played and what it was. let's set that up. >> it's hard to think now. but in those days, britain was one of the most powerful countries on the planet. it's important to know what britain would do. would it side with the north or south. whatever country, whatever nation it's siding with was going going to win the war. britain became neutral and held back on the entire europe and allowed them to duke it out. >> it was almost a collision over the trent affair, was there not? >> yes, that's one of my favorite stories. the trent affair took place in 1861 at christmas time. it involves a u.s. naval captain stopping a british mail boat and taking the two confederate passengers off of the ship and taking them back to the u.s. >> mason and sly dell. >> yes. mason was a descendent of british cavaliers. they get taken back to boston, they're in prison. britain demands their release and threatens war unless lincoln agrees. british troops were across the atlantic getting ready to invade maine when lincoln and seward decided the two annoying confederate ambassadors had to be released. >> they were scared to death of the british. by 1863, we had 1,000 ships around the american coast. when it came to building the raiders and the alabama and some of the other ships with the poles at the end of them that used to sink ships, the british backed down. >> the raiders with the rams on them. but what is the role that britain played in 1863? it allowed hundreds, if not thousands of blockade runners leave the british coast and invade the ships on the coast. britain had gaps in the first. >> who's they? they pass add law which had any britain to take a loan any shape or form. where there's money to be made, there's a will? confederate sympathizers opened up the dock yards and let them build in secret. >> the alabama was the big one. >> the biggest, the greatest, the best. sunk 64 federal ships. after the war in 1872, britain ended up paying $15 million in gold in reparations for not stopping the alabama from leaving britain shores. >> how close did britain come to intervening and look at what might have happened had they? >> i have no doubt first of all if britain had intervened on the begin og it was war on the side of the north, the south wouldn't have had a chance whatsoever. on the part of the south, the knot wouldn't have had a chance. they always entry once, once by default. and in 1862. people are saying, it's a disaster. people are dying. we must intervene. >> you've written other great books. the "duchess george jana" books have ended in motion pictures. how the process? oh. >> you write 197 people. you're creating a narrative out of a croissant of narratives. the difficulty is weaving them all together. why this book is going to be a miniseries rather than a film. >> did the emancipation proclamation of 1862, january, did that make it morally problematic for the brits to continue their kind of support for the south. in other words, lincoln turning it in to a war now to emancipate the slaves? >> it was absolutely vital for for overseas opinion that lincoln had the emancipation proclamation. until then, the south had all of its own way in brit table. the argument there was the south is fighting for freedom. the north is fighting for territory or empire. so, yes, that changed -- that was a game changer. but even then throughout the entire world, it was the south that had british sympathy because the south had better propagandas, and they were able to show the north were hypocrites. the draw fronts in 1863 in new york city by irish mobs against black citizens really played very very badly in britain. >> what was the internal debate in the british government about whether or not to intervene. they decided not to eventually. was there a faction that wanted to go in on behalf of the south? what was the discussion there? >> yes, the cabinet was evenly divided between those who wanted to stay neutral, those that were pro north and a vocal faction that was pro this or pro that. that isn't true. the south had the biggest cotton crop in its history in 1860. it meant that the british had -- the british had a year and a half's work of cotton sitting in its warehouses. the one that didn't happen was it became a war about coffee. >> great to have you on this show. thank you very much. >> congratulations. >> an accomplishment. >> what an accomplishment. >> that's a book. >> the book and five kids, the book is "a world on fire." thanks again, what do you have coming up. this is just as impress snif. >> ten years and five children for me to tell you this story. the great american pastime of hot dog eating. competitive hot dog eating. >> come on, this is ridiculous. >> we'll watch more of this nonsense when we come back. >> ( rooster crows ) >> by 2020, 50 billion network devices will roam the earth. that's seven devices per person. this will change how we work in ways we've never before imagined. what do you need to secure your people, their devices, and your business? a network that can evolve and grow to protect your human network. >> you were asking last hour about the guy and the suitcase. >> how is he doing? >> i don't know. i haven't checked with him lately. here's what happened. in mexico, 19-year-old maria del mar was visiting her husband. comes in with a suitcase. spending time with her common law husband. as she's leaving, the guards noticed she was carrying a heavier load. she seemed to be straining to get the bag out. they stopped her, opened it and found her common law husband right there in the suitcase trying to escape juan ramirez. do you rearrest the guy? i don't know how that works. first you unfold him. you can check that off the list if you're trying to escape from prison. not a good way to do it in carry-on luggage. >> now they are together again. >> not together. much more serious business, the hot dog eating contest. do we need to tell you who won, 27-year-old joey chestnut, winning his fifth consecutive nathan's hot dog eating contest. 62 hot dogs and the buns in 10 minutes. 62, good, not great, not chestnut great. >> i think -- >> a champion. >> in 2009, he ate 68 hot dogs and buns in 10 minutes. 62 yesterday. not bad. let's listen. >> i came out here to win. did what i had to do. i'll be eating the pepto bismol later. >> the weather didn't affect me that much. i didn't start as fast as i wanted. i was having trouble with water. i can't complain. i came out on top. >> were you looking for the world record? >> i'm always looking for the record. >> you just saw why espn is great. they turn a hot dog eating competition into a serious event. how did the weather affect you? >> he was joking. >> no, no, no. >> stop it. >> that's a sport. >> espn says it's a sport, it's a sport. they did the same thing with little drafts. there they go again. we're going to do that in a second. there's still a controversy about the hot dog thing. former champion, kobayashi had a one man deal on a rooftop deal, 69 hot dogs and buns but not sanctioned. mika wants to see this picture. you want to explain what happened. >> a monkey took the guy's camera and did a selfy. >> he took his own portrait. >> the "new york post" might have made that one up. >> it's funny. >> she loves that story. >> better than watching people eat hot dogs. >> here's a great story. you'll love this as a mother. in china a couple days ago, long story about how the baby got out there. a little baby gets out on to the ledge of a building ten stories up. baby left unattended. crawled up to the window, out to the ledge. a 31-year-old, who is a mother herself looked up as she was walking on the other side of the street and saw the toddler on the ledge. sprinted across the street just as the baby fell out of the 10 story building and caught the baby. made a clean catch from 10 stories up. she broke her arm making the catch but the baby suffered no major injuries to the head or internal organs. the woman ran over and makes the basket catch from 10 stories up. >> you don't know whether it's a basket. >> maybe over the shoulder. god bless. >> that's an incredible story. you've regained yourself from the hot dogs. >> this is the longest cooler. are we filling? >> this is a news show, news organization. it needs to be covered. >> that's enough. you can wrap it up now. >> let's do one more. tour de france. lee what happened. they ride the bicycles. spectator walks out. he happened to wander out in the middle of the road. cyclist gets clipped by a pedestrian and takes about everyone around him. dozens of racers tangled up. massive pileup because of one guy crossing the road. >> this makes me very angry. was he hurt? the guy? >> he's fine. >> that's just awful. what an idiot. >> that's a harsh word. >> no. that guy's an idiot. >> as a news organization, i would like to know the back story there. we can dig. willie, you learned this. you can dig. >> where's the monkey? >> "morning joe" is coming right up. ♪ [ doug ] i got to figure this out. i want to focus on innovation. but my data is doubling. my servers are maxed out. i need to think about something else when i run. 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[ gnome ] it's go time. ♪ good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." back with us on set, we have pat buchanan, donny deutsch and harold ford, jr. >> 600 points up. the market is not frightened of what's happening. i'm inclined to think the republicans are going to win the battle. they have to hold the line. propose the debt ceiling lift and some cuts with it, and put no new taxes on it. i don't see how bottom and the senate say no repeatedly. >> let's look at the headlines here. with an august 2nd deadline looming, they are cutting their recess short to continue negotiations on the deficit. as democrats and republicans try to reach a deal, "the new york times" reports the obama administration is offering to cut tens of billions of dollars from medicare and medicaid. the time timoney would come fro health care. however, the debts of the cuts depends on whether republicans are willing to accept increases in tax revenue. regarding that revenue discussion, the cover of today's "wall street journal," reads deficit talks focus on taxes. the republicans are at odds with democrats as they float ideas that could raise tax revenue by $400 billion over the next decade. republican leaders say they don't want tax increases but some members of the party a more tax breaks. senator john cornyn say republicans should close some loopholes and eliminate tax breaks as part of a larger way to cut rates. it may be too late to add this to a budget deal. >> i think it's clear that republicans are opposed to any tax hikes, particularly during a fragile economic recovery. the last thing that employers need is further disincentives to not hire people. that's what the higher taxes would mean. do we believe the tax reform is necessary? i would say absolutely. there's not enough time to get this done between now and august 2nd. it ought to be the first thing we turn to to make the tax code more rational. we can bring down rates and eliminate loopholes and make our nation more competitive. >> harold ford, jr., shouldn't they hold firm? >> they should. this is a big step forward for john cornyn, the leader of the senate campaign committee to suggest they are open to the idea if not immediately in the intermediate term closing loopholes is an important first step. it should suggest to democrats you should win some concessions. if you're going to take drastic steps to reform medicare and medicaid and social security which i agree we should, you should also hold firm to say some are going to have their taxes changed. if the middle class and people right below the middle class are going to make sacrifices and all americans should, people on the upper end of the spectrum should make it as well. hopefully democrats will be agreeable to a corporate tax cut and hopefully they'll be something to incentivize businesses hiring. >> willie, we have great segments ahead and must reads, about the tax issue and whether it hurts the economy to deal with this a little bit and get what the democrats want on this. i don't think it does. >> i want patted to talk about this. i don't understand why if we close some of the loopholes and taxing people, i don't understand how it can raise close to $500 billion, some of these corporate tax rates, i don't understand why other than putting money in the coffers that hurts the economy. i went to a business school, ran a business school and i can't put it together. >> the increase in tax revenue takes money out of the productive economy and gives it to the government which is the problem right now. >> no, no, you just gloss over that. once again, everything -- >> who knows better than pat? >> let's say somebody is making $1 million a year and they are taxed an extra $30,000 of disposable iome. why is that, other than putting money in the economy and evening the squirrel a little bit, why does that slow down the economy. >> you take it from private citizens and private corporations and give it to government, therefore things are going to get better. let me talk to harold's point. i think the republicans will go along with the reduction in rates and giving up certain deductions, et cetera. that's reaganomics. that's 28%. he took it down to 28%. republicans can't go home again if they raise taxes on net. secondly, you got a one -- >> america can't pay its debt. >> they're going to raise the debt ceiling. they'll raise it once or twice. put on biden cuts. the democratic senate will reject it or obama will reject it. they'll send them with a shorter debt ceiling with cults. if they reject it, they're responsible when the country goes down. >> i don't think there's any doubt that scenario could play out. for john cornyn who six weeks ago, two weeks ago, was not open to revenue raises. >> he's talking about what i'm talking about. >> we can call it reaganomics, but as long as we raise the debt ceiling and do it in a responsible way and republicans are open to the idea of revenue increases as a part of balancing our long term budget, obama and democrats prevail. >> what they're saying is not revenue increases. they are saying reduce rates and eliminate deductions and zero revenue increase. >> that is a revenue raise. republicans say if you spread out a number of people, a lot of democrats including myself and jim cramer as well. if you spread out the number of people paying taxes, you can lower the rates. i would love to hear your point, do you think the rate that hedge fund managers pay, which is a capital gains rate or regular rate? >> if you're turning over stocks daily, that's gambling, that's las vegas, you pay las vegas rates. 35%. if you believe in long term capital gains and long term investments and things like that, the one problem, harold, nobody addresses, 51% of american wage earners pay zero income tax. a lot of them get earned income tax credit checks. you can't take half the country, drop them off the tax rolls and say look, we messed up. >> i want you to answer one of harold's questions. hedge fund managers who, by the way, can put money overseas and don't have to pay any taxes. these guys makes tens of millions dollars a year. they pay a lower tax rate than anybody. do you think that should change? >> i think that short term capital gains. >> just answer that question. >> whatever they're doing, look, if a hedge fund guy invests in something for long term and it's investing in the country and it's a long term capital gains, pay capital gains rates like you guys do on wall street. >> i don't think they are investing -- >> they have a full exemption as far as money overseas. they basically, after 10 or 12 or 13 years, get it back without paying taxes. >> they're trying to repatriate all of the funds. i would make them pay taxes on that money, of course i would. i've got harold with me on that one. >> the hedge fund managers pay the capital gains rate versus the ordinary income rate. people earn their money the same way. you look it up, i want you to answer that question. you're conflating two issues. >> i don't believe the lower rate if it's short term. if it's long term, yes. >> the distinction between tax increases and revenue raisers is interesting. john mccain was talking about this on sunday as well. >> the principal of not raising taxes is something we campaigned on last november. the results of the election was that the american people didn't want their taxes raised and they wanted us to cut spending. i think that this catastrophe or short term meltdown we're facing isn't nearly as bad as the meltdown we're facing unless we get our deficit under control. >> pat, let's talk about what they mean specifically there. we're not talking about increasing tax rates. how are you raising the revenue without increasing the taxes? >> you're not raising net revenue. you're reducing the tax rates. suppose you and i went back 35% of willie's rate. we went back 30% but you got rid of your mortgage deduction, charitable deduction, you would be paying more at 30% than 35%. the problem with the republicans is this, harold, they can't go home again because the tea party will have a neck tie party if they walk home and say i promise you guys again, we broke our promises again, boys. we raised taxes. good-bye and good luck. they will lose dozens of members of the house. some of the senators will be challenged. they can't do it in the house. 235 house members, harold. >> you think republicans can live with making all the bush tax cuts as they relate to middle class owners permanent, making the dividends and capital gains rate permanent but raising the rates on the top earners. >> go back to the clinton 396. >> change that number from 250 to 400. that's something that the republicans can live with. >> you guys would get it at 400 and it would start walking back down to 200. >> i want it to go to half a million individual. half a million couple. say we made it 400. >> why would you do that when you can win this battle? it's a poker game. it's a poker game. you don't say, hey, let's split the pot, willie. we got the cards. >> i hope obama is listening over the weekend. he said do not blink. >> he told who? >> obama. >> we talk about this being a poker game. it's a poker game with people's lives. i think this is a really good point. it's by paul krugman. over the last two years profits have soared while unemployment has remained disastrously high. why should anyone believe handing any money to corporations would lead to faster job creation, nonetheless trickle down is clearly on the ascendant. an even some democrats are outrageous. how can people simultaneously demand savage cuts in medicare and medicaid and defend special tax breaks favoring hedge fund managers and owners of corporate jets? come on. >> let's take the corporate jets. number one export is? aircraft and space. we sell these things abroad. we make the best planes in the world. hit them with higher taxes, you're going to hurt the business. the business will start to move abroad as all our other businesses have. this is, excuse me, the same liberal demagoguery that got us in this mess. >> obviously, it's not going to solve the problem. $3 million a year for the jet people. these are corporate jets. these are guys flying. you're telling me by closing, even emotionally it is the right thing to do. a guy is giving the big guy a little bit. it's a human what is right. >> let me tell you about the little guy. i went down to georgia during the luxury tax. bay water boats, they made $100 million a year. i would never own one, could never afford one. they are all working class guys from georgia building these things. they put the luxury tax on. they are building one a month. eight a year. they are out of jobs. they move the production to mexico. >> so the corporate jets are helping the little guys? >> who do you think builds the corporate tax? >> by the way -- >> it's a deduction. do you understand how business works? >> yes. can i ask you a basic human tenet. forget you're a republican and forget i'm a democrat. conceptually, maybe everybody should give a little bit, maybe if we're asking and we know we need to make more entitlements that maybe hedge fund managers, corporations, the richest, just conceptually, forget reaganomics, does it not make sense? >> it does. i'm a small business guy. i'm self-employed. my first 50 grand a make, i send 56% of it straight to the government initially before you may property taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes. you're telling me half the country pays zero taxes. you got a government spending 25% of gdp, you got socialism here. this is what is bringing down western civilization. >> 51% of the people do not pay zero taxes. they pay payroll taxes like you and i do, they pay the same gasoline tax. >> no income tax. >> if you want to trade with them, if you want to make what they make and they make what you make, they'll trade. >> why the gop is sounding like jack nicholson in the shining. president obama seems to be challenge robert deniro. standard and poors, says greece could still default. managing editor tyler mathisen. we'll go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> good morning. hope everyone had a wonderful 4th of july. the heat is everywhere, there's no cool spots around the country. that continues. there's no huge weather headlines. no hurricanes this week or tornado outbreaks. hot weather, 91 in new york. 92 in philly. chicago, 88. you'll get a little break. slight chance of storms in minneapolis, denver, atlanta and the typical storms in florida. let me give you an idea this week. d.c. near 90 each day. humidity increases. friday, chicago, you're going to see a nice forecast, cooler air thursday and friday. unfortunately friends in the deep south, you got to feel bad for texas, no rain, temperature near 100 all week long. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. >> does anyone here remember gas lines? an enormous spike in gasoline prices and ronald reagan was able to go around the country with one of the best lines i've ever heard. he said a recession is when your neighbor loses his or her job. a depression is when you lose your job and depression is when jimmy carter loses his job. you know what? i bet we hear a variation of that line in the next coming campaign. >> 20 past the hour. that was john fund speaking to a conservative activism conference in minneapolis last month. joining us from washington, pulitzer prize winning columnist, eugene robinson. you write in your op-ed this week about negotiate ating gop style. i'll read a part of it. you say this, "begin by making outrageous demands. bully your opponents into giving you almost all of what you want rather than accept the deal. add a host of radical new demands. observe that you wouldn't want anything bad to happen to the hostage you've taken, the nation's well-being. to the extent possible, look and sound like jack nicholson in "the shining." really? >> really, really, because can't you just hear them? here's johnny. that's the republican negotiating strategy. it's been very successful. this time, the president has met it with a movie reference of his own. he sounds kind of like robert deniro in "taxi driver." you talking to me? i applaud that. i think he needs to stand up to the republicans. >> how do we refute what eugene is saying, pat? where is he wrong? >> take it at face value. he's talking about a hostage situation, so is krugman. what did richard cohen say? they are a cult. they don't sound like they can win the battle. when you're playing poker and the guy is yelling at you and call you names, you're about to lose. let me ask you that, gene. what do they do, the democrats, if john boehner and the republicans pass a one year debt ceiling with half of the biden cuts on it and say the debt ceiling has passed. the crisis is over. we're taking cuts. everybody in the senate has agreed to. let's get this over with now and we'll go on for another year. how do they say no? >> they say no. they say no. they say no, that's not good enough. you got to move off the no new taxes ever. no new revenue ever position which is a ridiculous position. it's an untenable position. the republicans have to be moved off that. >> how are you going to move them off that? >> well, you're going to say no. you're going to say fight. come on. bring it on basically. >> bring on the collapse of the american economy? >> gene, what happens august 2nd? >> what happens august 2nd? well, it happens i think before august 2nd, but maybe not a lot before. the president does have a dooms day option. he can move to this constitutional position and say, you know what, my interpretation of the 14th amendment is that it's my responsibility that i cannot let the united states default. that's what the constitution says and so we're going to do what we need to do. if that means we're going to borrow more money, we're going to borrow more money to meet our obligations. if congress wants to take me to the supreme court, then congress can vote to take me to the supreme court. he hasn't played that card. i'm not a constitutional lawyer. you can argue over whether it's a legitimate card or not, but it's a card he can play. >> gene, let me ask you. many of those democratic members of congress are very touchy about their own prerogatives as members of congress. we've seen that in the libya situation. they are really going to allow the president to say under the 14th amendment i can do what i darn well please and spend and borrow any amount of money, whether you guys raise the debt ceiling or not. i don't believe it. >> well, it depends. if you can get i guess 51 votes in the senate to challenge this, presumably before the supreme court, then try to get it. i'm not sure they would get that because this is important for the democratic party. i think its importance is going to be greater than that even of senatorial prerogative in this case. >> pat, let's war game this out. to your point republicans have to be intractable or they can't go back to their base. that's on one side of the ledger. what happens? >> here's what happens. the republicans pass. i think in the house, raise the debt ceiling for one year and take half of the biden cuts everybody has agreed to, send it over and say let's resolve the crisis for a year. i don't think the senate entirely rejects that. if they do, the house says okay, we'll pass another debt ceiling increase for half a year and take half the biden cuts. if the house repeatedly passes the debt ceiling and the democrats are rejecting it, who's responsible for shutting down the government? the democrats and obama. >> eugene, would you like to try that one? >> i don't think republicans want to go there. i don't think they want to go to the point of who is responsible. >> you don't know them, gene. >> jack nicholson versus robert deniro. the republicans have been able to get away with this crazier than your position for a long time. let's see how crazy they are. let's see how well this goes over with the country. if you want to bet the house on that, bet the house on it. >> it's james dean and buzz headed for the cliff. >> i will point out that nicholson had an ax but deniro had all wutomatic weapons. >> we had jim clyburn on, he seemed to think he could get republicans in the house, with the exception of boehner to peel off the tax increases or no revenue raisers mantra. do you think that's naive to think that at least some part of that republican caucus would join his side? >> so far i would have to say he knows something i don't know. i haven't seen that yet. but, the importance really, willie, is to move them, even if you just move them an inch, they have to get off this ridiculous position. it's simply no one who has looked at our budget, our deficit problem, no one has concluded that you can solve this by budget cuts alone. you simply cannot do it. you've got to work on the revenue side. we're talking about the country's prospects here. we're talking about getting back on firm financial footing. we got to start sometime. we got to start now. we got to start with realism and not fantasy. >> let me give you realism. republicans have pledged to the people that elected them they wouldn't raise taxes. they don't believe in taxes. gene robinson and pat buick cannca in other words, they can't go home again. >> pat, let me challenge that for a second. >> they can't. >> let me give a speech as a republican. you know, i know we said we didn't want to raise taxes. we are in a crisis situation. i do not want to raise taxes on you, mr. 50,000, 100,000. i want to shut corporate loopholes down. i want to tax very wealthy people. we're taking entitlements. i want to go back to what joe says all the time. people get it. it's not like i'm going to raise taxes. why will they lose their base with that argument? you're still at your core, you're appealing to them. why can't it be done? >> as gene says, you don't know the tea party and the republicans base. they believe in their hearts that raising taxes now in a recession, not only goes against their pledge, goes against their principles. why would you do it? >> there are a lot of things democrats are doing that goes against their principles. it's called compromise. >> they are not. >> i actually don't think that's going to help the republicans. >> it may not help the republicans. >> think about what you just said. >> they cut their throat. >> we're not giving up on our principles, a pure i hdea fanta. >> is it fair to say if both sides don't move, it's both on the spending side and on the revenue side, it cannot get done? is that fair to say? >> that is absolutely fair to say. you keep saying republicans are cutting their throats. democrats are doing the same thing. >> let me ask you, gene. >> these hallow programs for the less fortunate in our society and you don't do anything on the revenue side, you're cutting your throat. >> let me ask you a question. is there a possibility, as you have said and i have said, that rayi i raising taxes, 500 billion in taxes, would hurt the economy? is there a possibility? >> my position, yes, but the effect of the economy is dwarfed by the effect on the economy of cutting gazillions of dollars in corporate taxes. if government does not spend, that retards the recovery. it lessens the economic recovery of the country. that's basic arithmetic. that impact is much greater than the impact of raising taxes a tiny bit on people who are going to pay that extra money anyhow. >> you brought up joe's point of view. to channel him in the piece that he wrote for politico this week, he writes in part, "it's easy to grow discouraged by the spectacle we have to view from washington every day as politicians from both parties and all regions show their presently diss, their passions, their error of opinions, their local interests and their selfish views, but was it really so different when washington, franklin, jefferson and madison chartered the course from 1776 to 1789. considering my critique of washington above was lifted verbatim from franch lynn's speech, i suspect not. we have a lot of work to do, but we have a history that shows we can do it at times. at times. >> look, we're not -- gene has made a point. he said cutting spending could really damage the economy. he also said raising taxes could damage the economy, but he says we have to do it and the republicans have to go along. it doesn't follow, gene. >> it does follow. >> my position is this is not the time to do either. this is a time to set somdev some deficit paths that come into play in two years and lower deficit caps. then we have the fight we're having this morning, we have it 300 times, but at the end of that, we end up with more right sized government and spending packets, revenue packets that make sense going forward and put us on financial footing. >> all right, gene robinson. >> why don't you sell that to the republican caucus nor me? >> i'll talk to them. >> thank you, gene. "business before the bell" with tyler mathisen next on "morning joe." >> announcer: this past year alone there's been a 67% spike in companies embracing the cloud-- big clouds, small ones, public, private, even hybrid. your data and apps must move easily and securely to reach many clouds, not just one. that's why the network that connects, protects, and lets your data move fearlessly through the clouds means more than ever. [ grunts ] [ male announcer ] built like a volkswagen. the 2011 tiguan. [ grunts ] ♪ . 36 past the hour. officials at exxon mobil are acknowledging that an oil spill could spill farther than they thought. 140 miles downstream from yellowstone national park are furious after a pipeline that runs under the river burst over the river. oil is coating the river bank near billings. george lewis has this report from laurel. >> reporter: exxon says it's got more than 200 people working on cleaning up the oil spill. 1,000 barrels of crude, 42,000 gallons worth were released into the yellowstone river, enough oil to fill five tanker trucks. >> i want to personally apologize to all those people affected by this. >> reporter: workers are putting up 40,000 feet of protective boom to keep the oil from fouling the river bank. >> we're not worried about how many dollars we're spending. we're worried about getting in and responding to the damage and making sure we can clean up. >> reporter: officials speculate that strong flood waters on the yellowstone river may have slammed debris into the pipeline rupturing it and causing the spill. >> i didn't find out about the spill until i walked down here and smelled it. >> reporter: as we talked to the landowner, a helicopter flew over head surveying the damage. >> they think this is how they're going to find the oil, they have to send people on foot down the river. >> reporter: many people who live and farm along the river bank worry about the long term effects. >> we don't know what's going to happen in the future, five years from today. we kind of effect does this have on this land? >> reporter: her brother, george, agrees. >> how do you recover from oil when you spill? >> reporter: people say exxon has been a good neighbor, providing jobs for the community. still, they're upset. >> it does make you mad, because cannot replace this land. >> reporter: exxon says harm to han manimals, they ran pictures of a pelican trying to avoid it. >> that was nbc's george lewis reporting. time to get a check on "business before the bell" with tyler mathisen live at the new york stock exchange. >> we want to look ahead to the second half of the year after the first half that just closed. the first half really was rather like a baseball game in which, for investors at least, in which all the runs were scored in the ninth inning. the nasdaq is up 6.1% for the first half of the year. all the runs scored in last week. the s&p 500 up above a little more than 6% for the year. and 5.6% was all last week. no matter which market index you look at or whether you measure by percentage gain or point gain, last week was one of the best in at least a year, maybe even two, two and a half years depending on the barometer you look at. mika, as we look ahead to the second half, the things that are positives here are the profit picture. s&p forecasts that american corporations will earn -- earnings will grow about 15% or thereabouts. that's very good. stock prices are not terribly high by historical standards. the things that are the headwinds are what you guys were talking about. that is will there be a debt ceiling deal? what will it include? what combination, if a combination there is to be, of revenue enhancements or tax increases and spending cuts will there be? we've got the headwind of the ongoing situation in greece. as you all probably read over the weekend, s&p said that basically, if the greek situation resolves as the current plan proposes, it basically is tantamount to a default. they will regard it as a default. whether the ecb, the european central bank or others go along and subscribe to s&p's interpretation or not is one thing. we've got the matter of the u.s. economy. it's not growing terribly fast. those are the headwinds. on the good side, companies doing well. on the bad side, greece, the debt and a slow u.s. economy. >> our economy is slow. we had a segment on that was controversial on the set. did you see the piece in the sunday times about corporate salaries and bonuses? >> i did not, but i can only imagine is what it said was corporate salaries and bonuses are going up much, much faster than incomes generally and much faster -- >> that was the bottom line. >> i spoke not long ago to a high ranking government official and a former administration. he said the achilles heel of american capitalism is executive pay. >> tyler, it's donny. how are you, man? are we seeing a divergfficul di in -- it's not the mentality, things are good and let's go, we're having this continued diversions in what's happening in the stock market and what's happening on main street? >> the corporate executives -- i think you're right. the corporate executives, interestingly, are not investing their own money into their own company's shares. yes, they are causing the corporations to do, so called buy backs of company shares to improve the financial balance sheet of the corporation, but they themselves are not putting money to work in their own companies. you're right, they are holding back. the market is healthier, let's say, than the economy is. the economy is growing at something around 2% in the first half of the year, thereabouts. the stock market was up about 6%. so you've really nailed it, the diversion of the real economy and the financial economy. >> tyler mathisen, great to have you on again. ahead mccann dates for president were working the scene. the latest from the campaign trail next on "morning joe." hey can i play with the toys ? sure, but let me get a little information first. for broccoli, say one. for toys, say two. toys ! the system can't process your response at this time. what ? please call back between 8 and 5 central standard time. he's in control. goodbye. even kids know it's wrong to give someone the run around. at ally bank you never have to deal with an endless automated system. you can talk to a real person 24/7. it's just the right thing to do. even if you think your mattresses is just fine, ask me what it's like to get your best night's sleep every night. why not talk to someone who's sleeping on the most highly recommended bed in america.™ it's not a sealy or a simmons or a serta. ask me about my tempur-pedic. ask me how fast i fall asleep. these are actual tempur-pedic owners. ask someone you know. try your friends on facebook. you'll hear it all. unedited. ask me how it feels after 10 years. just ask me. there are over 4 million tempur-pedic owners, and they're more satisfied than owners of any traditional mattress brand. ask me why someone who's never had an ache or a pain is in love with this bed. start asking real owners. find out what you've been missing. right now, you can buy a tempur-pedic mattress set and save up to $200. plus, take advantage of our 4 years special financing. visit tempurpedic.com for full details on our mattress set savings event and 4 years special financing. don't wait-offer ends soon. visit tempurpedic.com now. ♪ >> i think it's a big mistake for any candidate to bypass iowa. i think it shows weakness, not strength. if you can't compete in the heartland of america for heartland republican voters, you're going to have a hard time not just winning the republican primary but you're going to make a hard case that you're going to defeat barack obama, that you have the energy to rally folks to win this election. it's a big mistake for governor romney and governor huntsman. >> that was rick santorum speaking to cnbc a few minutes ago. he's not the only candidate who thinks of the importance of iowa. michele bachmann and newt gingrich shared a parade in that state. for his part, gingrich said he is committed to spending 16 days in iowa over the next two months. meanwhile, mitt romney, right now is holding a town hall in wo wolfborough, new hampshire. he says the president has failed us and that "the recession is deeper because of our president." former utah governor, jon huntsman was in the granite state. when asked if he agreed with romney's assessment, he skirted the issue, focusing on what he and his party can offer voters. >> some of your independence, some of you are unaffiliated. all i will say from the outset is take a look at where we've been, where we've been, where we stand, make an informed decision and come back and talk to us. if we can't get you at that point, we're doing something wrong. >> i didn't hear what they can offer the voters, did you, pat? >> i don't think it was in there. former godfather's pizza ceo herman cane made a stop. he spoke with the "today" show to shore up his credentials. >> i'm already talking to national security people, former intelligence people, talking to former generals and people in the military to begin to develop ideas about how i would deal with the crises we're in. you don't need foreign policy to know who your friends and enemies are. you don't tell your enemy what your next move is. >> the candidates making the rounds. i'm curious about huntsman, pat buchanan, has he put out a clear agenda. >> he's going to skip iowa. he's up in new hampshire. the early polls said they had a 12% positive rating for him. he's going to try to win the independent votes. he's in a tough competition with romney who is strong up there and strong with independents. if he doesn't win new hampshire, i think huntsman is gone. >> who can beat obama? >> i think romney can beat obama. >> with who on the ticket? >> i think rubio would be good on the ticket, except i think you got to be able to carry florida by yourself. some swing state that you don't usually get and put them on the ticket. i think if you're romney, that's what i would do. >> it's been interesting to watch romney when all the media attention has gone to michele bachmann. >> you're going to come down to a two way race, between the establishme establishme establishment candidate, that's michele bachmann. he may be taking a risk because she is pretty hot at this moment. >> your right, at that point you really are going to have a two person race going into the primary. >> what happens in south carolina? >> doesn't matter. i'm not sure. it's not the south carolina i recall, i'll tell you. she would be very hot then. i think romney would have to beat her in florida. >> yeah. that would be tough. south carolina. more "morning joe" in just a minute. we'll be right back. 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[ male announcer ] jetta tdi clean diesel. the turbo that gets 42 miles per gallon. ♪ the possibilities are endless. interesting... save up to 50% this tuesday and wednesday only. hotels.com. be smart. book smart. >> it's time to talk about what we learned today. willie, did you learn anything? >> i learned something valuable. if i'm in prison for any reason, i'm going to take my common law wife not to try to smuggle me out of jail in her bag. they're going to find you. a for effort. >> pat? >> i think that either we had a bad clip or jon huntsman's got to dial it up. >> very good point. wes? >> i think i learned the amazing parallels between 1970 films and the debt ceiling. >> donny? >> your b

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