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You know, certainly on one hand you could sit there and say all these steps were taken to overturn the results of the election, but on the other hand, if he truly believed that there was fraud, whether you agree with him or not, if he truly believed it and if his team truly believed it, what steps would you expect them to take? you know, you would expect them to take the steps of saying, hey, let's slow down the process and let's try to verify these things, kick it back to the states to make sure that the election results are accurate. so it is definitely one of those things where it's not cle...

Tonight, former prument is attacking the justice department again after revealing that he is the target of the special counsel's election probe. this is him in iowa earlier tonight. >> they go after trump but they don't go after -- [ laughter ] they should give a little of that oomph to going after the terrorists. >> maggie haberman, a senior political correspondent for "the new york times" joins me now. i mean, to hear him saying that, i don't think it's surprising. it came unprompted. at this lodge event and he discuss started talking about it. what's your sense from your reporting about wha...

To do things that mike pence said he couldn't do. of course, we had rudy giuliani and these other attorneys going into states and trying to get these slates of fake electors. that's more than questioning. they had 60 court cases that were all thrown out. >> well, a lot of those court cases were thrown out on standing issues and they were really thrown out prediscovery. as to pressuring people to do things that the people say they can't do, that's one of those things where you have to look into it and say, were they really pressuring them to do something that is, you know, clear black letter la...

Afternoon. >> jack smith has prosecuted democrats too. i mean he prosecuted or was part of it for senator menendez, senator john edwards. are you saying if he finds evidence of criminality he should not charge donald trump anyway? >> what i'm say something when you're going after somebody on the other side of the political spectrum, if you're stretching statutes to try to criminalize maybe political disagreements, that is wrong. now, look, this is all speculation. but i think we've gone down the road in this country of trying to criminalize differences in politics rather than saying, okay, you...

January 6th investigation. this is one thread and when you pull on it, i think it's going to be a lot more extensive fabric than just what happened in michigan. >> that's a great question for you, jamie. as you do look at that, this is the michigan state investigation. of course, that's why you saw their attorney general announcing it. how does that fit into the special counsel's probe, which we know is looking at the fake electors? >> we don't know yet, but let's keep in mind, these are state charges, and there's no question that i'm sure that the special counsel is also looking at this. we k...