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HARDtalk

it is incumbent on you, though, as one of the most prominent commentators on the left in israel, it's incumbent on you — if you say we have a right to self—defence, but this military operation, the massive bombardment and assault on gaza, which has destroyed neighbourhoods and killed 23,000 people, if that is not the right way, you've got to tell israelis what the alternative is. and then i answer the israelis, now you are coming? after we are deep in this black hole? now you come to ask for an advice? no. we have to go much backwards, because this didn't start on the 7th. it started long before. but i will not go throughout the whole history from �*48 and even before. but 16 years, we are putting gaza in a cage. what did we think will grow there?

Israel , Left , Military-operation , Bombardment , Commentators , Incumbent , Right , Self-defence , One , Way , People , Operations-inside-gaza

HARDtalk

"it is impossible to let them pass without settling accounts "with everyone responsible." those the words of peacenik gideon levy. so i come back to this practical point — you've got to... to be credible, you've got to have an idea of how these people that you want to hold to account can be tackled, if it's not by the idf�*s current strategy. we should tackle them, we should punish them. we cannot punish 2.3 million people. it's unacceptable in any case... but if hamas is woven into the fabric of gaza as not just a military network, but a social, economic and political network, if they are ingrained and figuratively and literally entrenched in gaza, how else do you eliminate them? first of all, you can't eliminate them because for israel, any teacher who got a salary from hamas should be killed and any bank account who got a salary from hamas should be killed as well. i don't think so.

Gideon-levy , People , Idea , Point , Peacenik , Everyone , Words , Settling , Hamas , Case , Strategy , Idf-s

HARDtalk

i mean, i wish more israelis have at least watched the scenes, at least watch the scenes of gaza. they don't see gaza. i wish they would have seen more of the children on the grounds of the hospitals, the starvation, the destruction. but none of this is presented here, so theyjust condemn anyone who dares to criticise israel. i don't know if, legally, it is a genocide, but it is a bloodbath. it is a terrible, terrible mass killing. and really, do we care if it's legally a genocide or not? the israelis don't mind about the killing, theyjust mind about labelling it as genocide, so... well, they mind, i guess, for reasons which are, for anyone who knows some history, understandable. i mean, to quote president herzog, your country's president, he calls the accusations "atrocious

Children , Operations-inside-gaza , Israelis-don-t , More , Scenes , Grounds , They-don-t-see-gaza , Starvation , Hospitals , Israel , Genocide , Anyone

HARDtalk

will lead us to anywhere. the fact that vivian was killed, does it help now that we kill 1,000 vivians in gaza? does it help to anyone? one of the most recurrent messages in your columns in haaretz since october 7th and since the israeli military operation was launched has been this increased alarm you seem to feel at the dehumanisation of palestinians by the mass of israelis, and you seem to see a total lack of empathy. but don't you exaggerate when you say, as you've said recently, that israel, quote, "is going mad. mccarthyism and fascism reign." you are...you are devaluing what israel is, are you not? no, stephen, because i see the phenomena and i always know how it starts and you never know how it goes on. and the beginning is very, very worrying because people

One , Fact , Operations-inside-gaza , October-7th , Anyone , Anywhere , Vivians , Messages , It-help , Columns , Israeli-vivian-silver , Haaretz

HARDtalk

and by the time that you and me are talking now, another child is being killed for nothing. what we've seen in the last 2a hours is israel's prime minister come out and say this... "israel has no intention of permanently occupying gaza "or displacing its civilian population. "israel is fighting hamas terrorists and not "the palestinian population. " he's never been that explicit about israel's complete disinterest in a reoccupation or displacement of the people of gaza. good morning, israel. good morning, benjamin netanyahu. this just shows you how important is the procedure in the hague, because if at least this makes the israeli prime minister and some israelis to think about what we are doing and maybe to restrain ourselves, maybe to understand that what was happening

Israel , Nothing , Prime-minister , Intention , Child , 2 , Operations-inside-gaza , Hamas , Population , Terrorists , People , Procedure

HARDtalk

question. we are so furious after the 7th and we change our minds and we are not ready for any empathy or mercy on the people of gaza. now, imagine yourself a palestinian young man in gaza who was born into the siege and who is living under israeli attacks all his life. what does he care about israel? it's not one attack. it's hundreds and thousands of attacks. less brutal, obviously, than the 7th. but if you look at his life, he should be much more hateful to us than we are toward them. so let's put aside all those accounts. there was a horrible thing happening on the 7th, and we have to get up, get back to our values, because those are the only universal moral values i know. i don't know other moral values. i don't know revenge as a value. i don't know hatred as a value. and i don't think that it

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HARDtalk

so many people say now, people who were quite supporting my views say now, "no, no, no, afterthe 7th, that's the end. "we cannot accept them. we cannot forgive them. "and we don't want to hear about their. . .their suffer." and one, if i may say so, gideon, one reason for that is some of the staunchest supporters of coexistence who reached out to palestinian communities, both in gaza, in the west bank, were murdered on october 7th. thinking of the canadian israeli vivian silver, who spent most of her adult life working for peace, murdered by hamas. did that not make any difference to you and your thinking? it affected my thinking. like any victim of the attack in october, would it be a peacenik or a right—winger, both shouldn't have been slaughtered the way they were slaughtered. and still i ask, does one attack really change all our values and all the things we in the left, or what is left of the left, that we believed in all our lives? and you know what, stephen, i want to ask you another

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HARDtalk

where are we reaching it? and above all, stephen, the role of the media. i cannot ignore this, because this time the israeli media play the role that i never saw before. i mean, we were always criticising the russian media, covering the war in ukraine. "oh, look how they're covering the war in ukraine. "what a joke." we are much worse because we are doing it voluntarily. you cannot see any image of gaza in israeli tv and israeli newspapers. hardly see an image. israelis are not exposed to anything of the... nothing of the suffer... but... ..of the starvation, of the uprooted people. nothing. this is a democracy, when you don't show the truth? you talked earlier about empathy and putting yourself in other people's shoes. i'm now trying to put myself in your shoes. for you as a commentator who wants to influence opinion, shouldn't you try to reach israelis in a way that shows more empathy for them? for example, you still seem

Israel , All , Stephen , War , Media , Role , Ukraine , Russian , Operations-inside-gaza , Image , Tv , Newspapers

HARDtalk

until now is unacceptable, so it was worth it to get to the hague. let's talk a little bit about your. . . isolation, if i can put it that way, within the discourse inside your own country. there is no doubt — survey after survey shows the israeli public as a whole are absolutely supportive of the idf�*s operations inside gaza. and as the death toll has mounted well beyond 20,000, with more than 10,000 women and children killed in that operation, the support from the israeli public has been unwavering. doesn't that tell you something about the strength and the clarity of israel's message that it must act to protect and defend its people? no argument about this. i think, as the majority, that israel has the right to defend itself, for sure.

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HARDtalk

were arrested for demonstrations. people. . .you say that we don't feel empathy. it's almost forbidden to express empathy with gaza. if you are an arab israeli citizen, don't you dare to feel empathy with gaza because then you will be really in trouble. if you are jewish. .. come on, gideon, you... you haven't been silenced. you're one of the most powerful voices on your newspaper. i say if you are arab israeli, and then i say if you are jewish, be also aware. i wasn't silenced in my newspaper, but i was silenced on israeli tv and in other places. and don't complain, i have full freedom. i really don't complain. but by the end of the day, the feeling is that paying empathy now with gaza is an act of treason, no less than this. i don't remember such a phenomena ever before, so this should worry me as an israeli. this should more worry me.

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