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analyst and axios senior media reporter sarah fischer. the new yorker article goes into great detail, sara fischer about this reliance, and the big question people have -- especially when looking at one of the quotes -- we are ronan farrow's article talks about the degree of dependency that the u.s. now has on musk -- are we into deep here? >> we are in an unprecedented, situation laura coates. typically, the u.s. government is not the go between an allied force in ukraine -- a nato ally -- and a private u.s. citizen. we have never really experienced that type of situation before. now, of course, the starlink example is absolutely critical. and it puts the u.s., probably, in its biggest bind as it pertains to this go between role. but there have been other instances in which elon musk has forced the government to take action on certain things related to technology. you think about autonomous vehicles. this is a huge priority for the biden administration. the biden administration had to

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and he could very well, just like any one of those six unindicted coconspirators, could find themselves facing charges at some point in the future, unless he actually solidifies official cooperation agreement with the federal government. >> talk about what that would be like, though. because -- let's assume for the sake of argument that mark meadows, right now, he's following the advice of sarah and saying, look, i'm smart, i'm going to do this. how does that work from the defense perspective? you are his attorney, let's were tanned, and you are going to fani willis, or you are going to jack smith. and what are you saying? and are you hoping, at this point, that what i have to offer cannot be found anywhere else? >> let me tell you something. he has a fantastic attorney, george terwilliger. so, it goes back to what we said. you have to think about yourself. and i think mark meadows is reflecting on, should i take a bullet for the team? should i take a bullet for donald trump? but in terms of the cooperation,

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amount, he's telling you is maybe there is a scratching of the back that is happening? >> i believe so. i think he knows that if rudy giuliani were to flip that that would be disastrous for him and his legal case. and so, what does he want to do? he wants to help him find those legal fees. we have seen him do this before, even with walt nada, in the classified documents case, his body man, and he's being represented by trump lawyer because he wants to ensure that he is telling his side of the story that is favorable to trump. we saw that happen in the january six committee with cassidy hutchinson, a star witness out of those hearings. and she had a trump lawyer. they were telling her to not recall events that happened that she did very well recall. and so, what did she do? she did the right thing, which was which lawyers, so, that way she was defending her best interests and not trump's best interests. >> when you look at this, gene rossi, this is, essentially, one of the things that, i can imagine, is going to make the prosecutors raise their eyebrows on something and say, that is interesting.

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>> without surprise you if that were the case? >> no. i think that if mark meadows is smart, he will flip. because he needs to, honestly. he was at the center of a lot of what these indictments are, whether it is the classified documents, case whether it is january 6th, these fake electors scheme -- he was there and present. and so i think that he knows a lot. trump world should be really worried if he is cooperating, whether that is with the doj or in this fulton county, georgia case. and so, only time will tell. but mark meadows should know, as i do, having worked in trump world, trump demands loyalty from everyone but gives it to no one. and so i think trump will very easily throw him under the bus. so -- >> i mean, the assumption was, when we did not see him in the indictment for january 6th, or even mar-a-lago, to a larger point, that he was assumed -- we don't know -- but a soon to be a co-operator. we had this conversation and -- fulton county. does this show you that, maybe, fani willis either has not had the communication with them? or that he has refused to do so?

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from the top. the bottom line is, he would love to join them in migrating over to federal court. but this question is, does that take everybody else with him or not? why would they want to do that? there are several reasons. number one, trump's strategy, it slows everything down. any time you do anything in this case, is going to slow down. all these people, all these lawyers, a lot of these are going to get slow down. that's one of the slowing things. potentially more sympathetic jurors -- and debate about this -- with the notion being that if you brought on the jury pool in a federal hearing, further beyond fulton county, beyond atlanta, which will lean so much more blue, you might get some more trump sympathetic jurors in their. and there are no fans oral cameras in federal courts. -- appear on tv day after day and -- accused of things. and maybe some more legal avenues for defense. the question is, who else winds up over there with -- >> it's really important point. let's bring in the panel and talk about. it first of all, we are talking about removal to federal court. it's not a slam dunk that it is

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willis and i have to corporate. i'm a minnow. i'm the smallest one on this totem pole. and i have to cooperate and get out of jail. what you're going to see is people cooperating probably in the next two or three months, after they get discovery. and i predict that the david c shaffers of the world and latham could cooperate because they're seeing the writing on the wall. my legal fees aren't getting paid by anybody but me. and i need to think about me. what i used to tell cooperators is, the most important person in your life is you. forget everybody else. forget your buddies on the street. the most important person is you. and andy mccabe will tell you, who they are and what's in the cord

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committee, and cassidy hutchinson. they were telling her to not recall events that happened. she did very well recall. and what did she do? she did the right thing, which is switch lawyers. so she was defending her best interests and not trump's best interest. >> when you look at this, gene, this is essentially one of the thing thats i can imagine is going to make the prosecutors raise their eyebrows on something and say, that's interesting. so, your co-defendant in this important case, in fulton county, is a fund-raiser for it? and there's also the bond agreement that you can't actually talk about the facts of the case. is this going to make you nervous? >> as a defense attorney, would make me very nervous. as a prosecutor, i'm salivating. >> i knew it. i knew it. my mouth was watering, as well. >> the reason is this. you go to trial and what is a jury going to hear? they're going to hear that all these people sitting together at

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you mentioned the one-way street of loyalty with the president. you have to wonder with the people that did the most open, vociferous defending, where they feel right like now. like rudy giuliani, he seems to be in a bit of trouble. >> who is the man next to him? >> bernie kerik. >> the one that is offering rudy with advice. bottom line is, everybody out here is staring hard at this, the first of many deadlines. we're expecting donald trump to fold it up here and go in and make his peace with things for the moment. and here we are on tuesday. one thing to remember in all of this, and all of the discussion we're having, every one of these days moves us closer to the election and raises constantly the question, can you get through all of this, to get anything meaningful before that comes around, in terms of what voters will know about what

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privilege and refused to answer questions. it's not surprising that he ended up as a defendant in that case and is not yet a defendant on the federal side. >> ooh, yet. >> yet. yeah. i think, you know, there are 16 unindicted coconspirators referred to in the january 6th complaint. mark meadows is not included in that list. he is referred to as the president's chief of staff. i think that investigation is far from over. and he could very well, just like any one of the six, unindicted coconspirators, could find themselves facing charges in the future. unless he actually solidifies an official cooperation agreement with the federal government. >> talk to me about what that would be like, though. let's assume for the sake of argument that mark med dose right now is following the advice of sara and saying, i'm smart i'm going to do this. how does that look from the defense perspective? you're the attorney and you're going to fani willis or jack

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let's say he does show up. who suffers the most with him being present? >> everybody on the stage. he will block out the sun. something occurred to me tonight, thinking about why he's not going to be there. obviously, a political consideration that he's making. and i've worked for presidents running for re-election. obviously, he's not running for -- technically he's running for re-election, having lost the last one. they never want to debate. they think it's beneath them. that's a political calculation. and also, his lawyers breathed a big sigh of relief. think about this. we have two former prosecutors on that stage, in chris christie and asa hutchinson. and you can bet they would be

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