Transcripts For BBCNEWS BBC 20240702

good afternoon and welcome to the bbc news at one. borisjohnson has apologised for the "pain, loss and suffering" discharge the commission put upon him by the home secretary and former prime minister to capture their respective so it was not lost. to date is an important day. it doesn't provide closure for the families, of course. as bishopjames himself wrote, there can be no closure to love, norshould wrote, there can be no closure to love, nor should there be for someone you have loved and lost. grief is indeed a journey without a destination, but today is a milestone on thatjourney. it is a day when i hope that families can pause and take quite pride in the enormity of what they achieved, not for themselves, enormity of what they achieved, not forthemselves, but enormity of what they achieved, not for themselves, but for others, for the british people. i hope they will serve to cement and strengthen the legacy, the changes they have made to benefit an entire nation and make sure that never again can our people be so betrayed by the very organisations and institutions that are meant to protect them. i commend this statement to the house.— this statement to the house. shadow minister. thank you, madam deputy minister. — thank you, madam deputy speaker. it is customary to thank the government for advance sight of the statement, but i have to say that given the gravity of this matter, the fact that the report that is being responded to has been with the government that was the justice secretary and an lord chancellor. much later than is customary. to describe the events of the 15th of april 1989 as far—reaching is wholly inadequate. to say they were tragic misses the point. the name hillsborough stands to this day is an indictment of institutions, individuals and an entire culture in which transparency, accountability and even simple human compassion were absent. i was a child in 1989, when 95 people died at hillsborough stadium in the worst sporting disaster in this nation's history. ten years later, alongside thousands of other law students, i learned about the shock waves that that they were sending throughout courts to the continuing pain of the families. this included the death in 1993 of the 96 victim, 22—year—old anthony bland who spent years in a vegetative state before a court agreed that it was in his best interest to withdraw his feeding tube. let's not forget that it was two years ago that they disaster claimed its 97th victim, 55—year—old andrew divine, who lived with a serious brain injury for more than three decades. it has now been 3a years. to say thatjustice delayed is justice denied would be a significant understatement in this context. it is simply unendurable for any family to be made to wait this long forjustice. i want to echo the words of the secretary of state by paying tribute to bishop james jones, state by paying tribute to bishop jamesjones, the many campaigners inside and outside of this house who worked for so long to establish the truth, and to the bereaved families. they have gone beyond what anyone should have to endure to secure justice not only for their own loved ones but for the victims of future disasters as well. we ones but for the victims of future disasters as well.— ones but for the victims of future disasters as well. we have 'ust been watchin: disasters as well. we have 'ust been watching and — disasters as well. we have 'ust been watching and listening _ disasters as well. we have 'ust been watching and listening to _ disasters as well. we have just been watching and listening to the - watching and listening to the government's responds to the hillsborough report, the husband disaster of course took place in 1989, 97 liverpool fans were killed. the government has responded to a report of 2017 are written by the former bishop of liverpool who made 25 recommendations including the introduction of a hillsborough law, forcing all public servants to co—operate with inquiries. the government has signed a hillsborough charter which prompted no families will have to suffer the same injustices as the families of the hillsborough victims but it stopped short of a new law, instead promising a duty of candour for policing instead to promote a culture of openness and honesty and transparency. it has also launched a consultation to improve legal aid for bereaved families. crucially the government today has apologised for taking six years to respond to the report, saying the delay had taken too long, compounding the agony of the hillsborough families and survivors. rishi sunak and prime ministers question time thanked the families for their tenacity and courage. thejustice secretary reiterated his thanks as well. now we can return to another of our main story is here today on bbc news, the covid inquiry, former prime minister borisjohnson has been giving his evidence all day, his evidence will continue into tomorrow. this lunchtime the group covid 19 bereaved families forjustice have gathered outside the inquiry and given their response. i am gathered outside the inquiry and given their response.— gathered outside the inquiry and given their response. i am the lead solicitor for — given their response. i am the lead solicitor for the _ given their response. i am the lead solicitor for the scottish _ given their response. i am the lead solicitor for the scottish covid - solicitor for the scottish covid bereaved, myself and a number of groups and organisations will be doing a short statement and there will be questions and answers. across the uk and many will have watched the evidence of boris johnson today, he was the prime minister that presided over the meltdown of the british state alongside a chaotic and dysfunctional number ten. mrjohnson apologised today but that apology is not accepted by many of the bereaved because he also claimed his government saved thousands of lives, and that for many is a grotesque distortion of the truth. instead of solving a national crisis, boris johnson in his own words presided over a total disgusting orgy of narcissism. millions of front line workers risk their lives without adequate ppe, johnson's government turned our care homes at the killing grounds for the elderly who were treated as toxic waste. he wasted £37 billion on a failed track and trace system and all the while johnson and his cabinet were living it up at parties, insulting the dead, the poor and vulnerable. mr johnson tried his very best to deny his government's feelings meaning that the uk had one of the highest death rates on all major economies, but that is the evidence. he was dismissive of whatsapp two but was accused by senior members of his own government, his own inner circle of saying, let the bodies pile up, rather than have another lockdown. johnson's is because today is that his government was slow to understand the severity of covid but insisted he had got the big calls right, however on the biggest life—saving decision of lockdowns, on each and every occasion, boris johnson delayed and excited with death. the voice of the voiceless will be heard. the bereaved and all those impacted by covid at the very least deserve the truth from mr johnson. anna louise from the welsh group. it johnson. anna louise from the welsh urou -. , , johnson. anna louise from the welsh i rou . _ , , , ., johnson. anna louise from the welsh u-rou. , i, ., .,, group. it is very surreal to be standing _ group. it is very surreal to be standing here _ group. it is very surreal to be standing here today - group. it is very surreal to be standing here today and - group. it is very surreal to be | standing here today and three group. it is very surreal to be - standing here today and three years after my— standing here today and three years after my father died and listening to the _ after my father died and listening to the man that made the decisions that led _ to the man that made the decisions that led to — to the man that made the decisions that led to so many deaths. we all knew_ that led to so many deaths. we all knew he _ that led to so many deaths. we all knew he was disorganised and disdainful but had no idea, i will use c_ disdainful but had no idea, i will use c word, but not at the dominic cummings— use c word, but not at the dominic cummings lexicon, i wasn't aware how casual. _ cummings lexicon, i wasn't aware how casual, careless, chaotic, clueless he was _ casual, careless, chaotic, clueless he was. sadly not competent, not completely without conscience and not contrite. one of his biggest issues — not contrite. one of his biggest issues with dealing with the devolved nations. he said scotland or whoever, as someone who leads the welsh _ or whoever, as someone who leads the welsh group _ or whoever, as someone who leads the welsh group we assume that means wates— welsh group we assume that means wales and _ welsh group we assume that means wales and northern ireland. itjust feels like _ wales and northern ireland. itjust feels like he was living under a rock _ feels like he was living under a rock how— feels like he was living under a rock. how could we all know what was going _ rock. how could we all know what was going on _ rock. how could we all know what was going on in_ rock. how could we all know what was going on in china and italy? he was 'ust going on in china and italy? he was just completely unaware of it. if the chair— just completely unaware of it. if the chair is _ just completely unaware of it. if the chair is a recommendation, i would _ the chair is a recommendation, i would say— the chair is a recommendation, i would say if_ the chair is a recommendation, i would say if you're going to be pm, denise _ would say if you're going to be pm, denise to— would say if you're going to be pm, denise to be some kind of exam that includes _ denise to be some kind of exam that includes a _ denise to be some kind of exam that includes a memory test.— denise to be some kind of exam that includes a memory test. person is an alan engels — includes a memory test. person is an alan engels who _ includes a memory test. person is an alan engels who lost _ includes a memory test. person is an alan engels who lost his _ includes a memory test. person is an alan engels who lost his son - includes a memory test. person is an alan engels who lost his son calluml alan engels who lost his son callum to covid, member of the scottish covid bereaved. just to covid, member of the scottish covid bereaved.— covid bereaved. just a short statement. _ covid bereaved. just a short statement. it _ covid bereaved. just a short statement. it is _ covid bereaved. just a short statement. it is clear - covid bereaved. just a short statement. it is clear from i covid bereaved. just a short - statement. it is clear from what we have heard — statement. it is clear from what we have heard this morning _ statement. it is clear from what we have heard this morning that- statement. it is clear from what we have heard this morning that there | have heard this morning that there was data _ have heard this morning that there was data coming _ have heard this morning that there was data coming from _ have heard this morning that there was data coming from the - have heard this morning that there was data coming from the who - have heard this morning that there i was data coming from the who that covid _ was data coming from the who that covid was _ was data coming from the who that covid was on — was data coming from the who that covid was on its _ was data coming from the who that covid was on its way _ was data coming from the who that covid was on its way to _ was data coming from the who that covid was on its way to these - was data coming from the who that| covid was on its way to these shores injanuary_ covid was on its way to these shores in january 2020. _ covid was on its way to these shores in january 2020. yet _ covid was on its way to these shores in january 2020. yet no _ covid was on its way to these shores in january 2020. yet no action - covid was on its way to these shores in january 2020. yet no action was l in january 2020. yet no action was being _ in january 2020. yet no action was being taken— in january 2020. yet no action was being taken at— in january 2020. yet no action was being taken at that _ in january 2020. yet no action was being taken at that time _ in january 2020. yet no action was being taken at that time by - in january 2020. yet no action was being taken at that time by a - being taken at that time by a government. _ being taken at that time by a government. so _ being taken at that time by a government. so that - being taken at that time by a government. so that leavesl being taken at that time by a i government. so that leaves me thinking, — government. so that leaves me thinking, how— government. so that leaves me thinking, how many— government. so that leaves me thinking, how many deaths - government. so that leaves me i thinking, how many deaths could government. so that leaves me - thinking, how many deaths could have been prevented — thinking, how many deaths could have been prevented had _ thinking, how many deaths could have been prevented had mr— thinking, how many deaths could have been prevented had mrjohnson - thinking, how many deaths could have been prevented had mrjohnson in - thinking, how many deaths could have been prevented had mrjohnson in his| been prevented had mrjohnson in his own words— been prevented had mrjohnson in his own words twain _ been prevented had mrjohnson in his own words twain earlier? _ been prevented had mrjohnson in his own words twain earlier? thank- been prevented had mrjohnson in his own words twain earlier?— own words twain earlier? thank you. natalie rogers _ own words twain earlier? thank you. natalie rogers. -- _ own words twain earlier? thank you. natalie rogers. -- twain _ own words twain earlier? thank you. natalie rogers. -- twain earlier. - natalie rogers. —— twain earlier. for politicians like borisjohnson, for politicians like boris johnson, it is all— for politicians like boris johnson, it is all about optics, it is about how— it is all about optics, it is about how we — it is all about optics, it is about how we rank globally. people are 'ust how we rank globally. people are just numbers. for those impacted, covid, _ just numbers. for those impacted, covid, every— just numbers. for those impacted, covid, every number represented a loved _ covid, every number represented a loved one _ covid, every number represented a loved one whose life has been lost or radically — loved one whose life has been lost or radically altered by long covid. injohnson's testimony or radically altered by long covid. in johnson's testimony this morning, there _ in johnson's testimony this morning, there is— in johnson's testimony this morning, there is lots— in johnson's testimony this morning, there is lots of obfuscation, excuses. _ there is lots of obfuscation, excuses, deflection of responsibility. he says he was waiting — responsibility. he says he was waiting for advice. why wasn't he seeking _ waiting for advice. why wasn't he seeking advice? why was he not critically— seeking advice? why was he not critically appraising the facts? the government aired on the side of caution, — government aired on the side of caution, they were caught with their pants— caution, they were caught with their pants down. as prime minister, he had a _ pants down. as prime minister, he had a duty— pants down. as prime minister, he had a duty of care to the uk population. the box stops with him. damage _ population. the box stops with him. damage was done by his failure to act. damage was done by his failure to act he _ damage was done by his failure to act. he failed in his duty. dean sherwood- _ act. he failed in his duty. dean sherwood. it _ act. he failed in his duty. dean sherwood. it is _ act. he failed in his duty. dean sherwood. it is not _ act. he failed in his duty. dean sherwood. it is notjust - act. he failed in his duty. dean sherwood. it is notjust lives i act. he failed in his duty. dean i sherwood. it is notjust lives that sherwood. it is not 'ust lives that would have h sherwood. it is not 'ust lives that would have been _ sherwood. it is notjust lives that would have been saved. - sherwood. it is notjust lives that would have been saved. if- sherwood. it is notjust lives that would have been saved. if we - sherwood. it is notjust lives that| would have been saved. if we had locked _ would have been saved. if we had locked down — would have been saved. if we had locked down sooner. _ would have been saved. if we had locked down sooner. if _ would have been saved. if we had locked down sooner. if the - locked down sooner. if the government _ locked down sooner. if the government had _ locked down sooner. if the government had been- locked down sooner. if the - government had been competent. locked down sooner. if the _ government had been competent. many of the millions— government had been competent. many of the millions of— government had been competent. many of the millions of people _ government had been competent. many of the millions of people who _ government had been competent. many of the millions of people who are - of the millions of people who are still suffering _ of the millions of people who are still suffering from _ of the millions of people who are still suffering from ongoing - still suffering from ongoing symptoms— still suffering from ongoing symptoms from _ still suffering from ongoing symptoms from covid - still suffering from ongoing - symptoms from covid infection back in march _ symptoms from covid infection back in march 2020 — symptoms from covid infection back in march 2020 would _ symptoms from covid infection back in march 2020 would not _ symptoms from covid infection back in march 2020 would not have - symptoms from covid infection back in march 2020 would not have had i in march 2020 would not have had their lives — in march 2020 would not have had their lives wound. _ in march 2020 would not have had their lives wound. johnson - in march 2020 would not have had their lives wound. johnson talked i their lives wound. johnson talked about— their lives wound. johnson talked about communication _ their lives wound. johnson talked about communication as - their lives wound. johnson talked about communication as being i their lives wound. johnson talked i about communication as being one their lives wound. johnson talked - about communication as being one of the most _ about communication as being one of the most mpls — about communication as being one of the most mpis to _ about communication as being one of the most mpis to stop _ about communication as being one of the most mpis to stop the _ about communication as being one of the most mpis to stop the spread - about communication as being one of the most mpis to stop the spread ofl the most mpis to stop the spread of the most mpis to stop the spread of the virus _ the most mpis to stop the spread of the virus the — the most mpis to stop the spread of the virus. the government - the most mpis to stop the spread of the virus. the government has - the most mpis to stop the spread ofi the virus. the government has failed to communicate _ the virus. the government has failed to communicate about _ the virus. the government has failed to communicate about long - the virus. the government has failed to communicate about long covid - to communicate about long covid throughout— to communicate about long covid throughout the _ to communicate about long covid throughout the inquiry. _ to communicate about long covid throughout the inquiry. it - to communicate about long covid throughout the inquiry. it has - to communicate about long covid i throughout the inquiry. it has been sidelined. — throughout the inquiry. it has been sidelined. the _ throughout the inquiry. it has been sidelined, the communication- throughout the inquiry. it has beenl sidelined, the communication would have helped — sidelined, the communication would have helped people _ sidelined, the communication would have helped people prevent, - sidelined, the communication wouldi have helped people prevent, prevent people _ have helped people prevent, prevent people from — have helped people prevent, prevent people from dying _ have helped people prevent, prevent people from dying or— have helped people prevent, prevent people from dying or getting - have helped people prevent, prevent people from dying or getting long - people from dying or getting long covid _ people from dying or getting long covid because _ people from dying or getting long covid because they _ people from dying or getting long covid because they would - people from dying or getting long covid because they would have i people from dying or getting long. covid because they would have taken personal— covid because they would have taken personal protection _ covid because they would have taken personal protection measures. - covid because they would have taken personal protection measures. it- covid because they would have taken personal protection measures. it is. personal protection measures. it is a really— personal protection measures. it is a really disappointing _ personal protection measures. it is a really disappointing that - personal protection measures. it is a really disappointing that even - a really disappointing that even though— a really disappointing that even though ministers— a really disappointing that even though ministers tried - a really disappointing that even though ministers tried to - a really disappointing that even though ministers tried to bringl a really disappointing that even i though ministers tried to bring the fact of— though ministers tried to bring the fact of long — though ministers tried to bring the fact of long covid _ though ministers tried to bring the fact of long covid to _ though ministers tried to bring the fact of long covid to the _ though ministers tried to bring the fact of long covid to the prime - fact of long covid to the prime minister's _ fact of long covid to the prime minister's notice, _ fact of long covid to the prime minister's notice, he - fact of long covid to the prime minister's notice, he was - fact of long covid to the prime l minister's notice, he was clearly sceptical— minister's notice, he was clearly sceptical and _ minister's notice, he was clearly sceptical and was _ minister's notice, he was clearly sceptical and was unable - minister's notice, he was clearly sceptical and was unable to - minister's notice, he was clearlyj sceptical and was unable to take minister's notice, he was clearly. sceptical and was unable to take it on-board. — sceptical and was unable to take it on—board, unable _ sceptical and was unable to take it on—board, unable to— sceptical and was unable to take it on—board, unable to take - sceptical and was unable to take it on—board, unable to take it- on—board, unable to take it seriously, _ on—board, unable to take it seriously, and _ on—board, unable to take it seriously, and as _ on—board, unable to take it seriously, and as a - on—board, unable to take it seriously, and as a result . on—board, unable to take it- seriously, and as a result nearly 3% of the _ seriously, and as a result nearly 3% of the uk _ seriously, and as a result nearly 3% of the uk is — seriously, and as a result nearly 3% ofthe uk is now— seriously, and as a result nearly 3% of the uk is now impacted - seriously, and as a result nearly 3% of the uk is now impacted by- seriously, and as a result nearly 3% l of the uk is now impacted by ongoing symptoms— of the uk is now impacted by ongoing symptoms and — of the uk is now impacted by ongoing symptoms and many— of the uk is now impacted by ongoing symptoms and many of— of the uk is now impacted by ongoing symptoms and many of them - of the uk is now impacted by ongoing symptoms and many of them cannot i symptoms and many of them cannot work and _ symptoms and many of them cannot work and cannot _ symptoms and many of them cannot work and cannot contribute - symptoms and many of them cannot work and cannot contribute to - symptoms and many of them cannot work and cannot contribute to the i work and cannot contribute to the economy— work and cannot contribute to the economy which— work and cannot contribute to the economy which was _ work and cannot contribute to the economy which was always - work and cannot contribute to the - economy which was always prioritised over health _ economy which was always prioritised over health iti— economy which was always prioritised over health. , ., , over health. if there is any questions. _ over health. if there is any questions, please - over health. if there is any questions, please identify| over health. if there is any - questions, please identify yourself. can i ask your reaction to what you have _ can i ask your reaction to what you have heard — can i ask your reaction to what you have heard this morning from mr johnson? — have heard this morning from mr johnson? its have heard this morning from mr johnson? �* , , . , ., johnson? as expected, sadly it would a- ear johnson? as expected, sadly it would a - ear that johnson? as expected, sadly it would appear that those _ johnson? as expected, sadly it would appear that those acting _ johnson? as expected, sadly it would appear that those acting for - johnson? as expected, sadly it would appear that those acting for mr - appear that those acting for mr johnson or others with special interest have tried to defend mr johnson everlasting days, it was entirely predictable, he issued an apology but caveat it by saying he had got the big calls right. how do you get the big calls right when we have one of the highest rates of death within western europe, out of any of the major economies? when you wasted £37 billion on test and trace system that doesn't work? how do you get it right when your front line workers lost their lives suffering from long covid because of failure to deliver ppe? he didn't get the big decisions right, he tried to blame everyone else, he has failed to take response ability, he must be accountable voice actors. his words today are insulting to the memory of the bereaved. he needs to tell the truth, account for his actions, this is his people, his people's e—mails, whatsapps that has broken up about his attitude, his disgrace will attitude, his insulting attitude to the vulnerable, poor, ill, elderly in this country. the elderly were treated as toxic waste. they should not have been left to die, often on their own, in care homes, being discharged into care homes. speak up, sorry. discharged into care homes. speak u, sor . ., , discharged into care homes. speak u,sor . up, sorry. there was mixed messaging across the uk — up, sorry. there was mixed messaging across the uk and _ up, sorry. there was mixed messaging across the uk and that _ up, sorry. there was mixed messaging across the uk and that that _ up, sorry. there was mixed messaging across the uk and that that is - up, sorry. there was mixed messaging across the uk and that that is a - across the uk and that that is a problem? — across the uk and that that is a problem? [_ across the uk and that that is a roblem? ., , ., , problem? i will let other people come in, problem? i will let other people come in. it _ problem? i will let other people come in. it is— problem? i will let other people come in, it is not— problem? i will let other people come in, it is not a _ problem? i will let other people come in, it is not a question - problem? i will let other people come in, it is not a question ofl come in, it is not a question of mixed messaging, he is a prime minister, he has the cabinet office, the chief scientific advisers. he hasn't the chief medical officers, world health organization, everyone feeding him information. over that period of ten days introduced a lockdown up or thousands will die, why did he not act? why did he disappear? he has tried to model himself on winston churchill, his great hero, but churchill would not have disappeared for ten days during the battle of britain. i typically would have stayed in post and fought on. borisjohnson disappeared. he failed on each and every occasion to take the decisions that mattered. he had the advice, they told him to act, this wasn't a case of mixed messaging. he holds the responsibility. he is the one with the levers of power. [30 responsibility. he is the one with the levers of power.— responsibility. he is the one with the levers of power. do you accept boris johnson's — the levers of power. do you accept boris johnson's apology? - the levers of power. do you accept boris johnson's apology? that - the levers of power. do you accept boris johnson's apology? that is l the levers of power. do you accept l boris johnson's apology? that is set down to the — boris johnson's apology? that is set down to the answers _ boris johnson's apology? that is set down to the answers we _ boris johnson's apology? that is set down to the answers we have - boris johnson's apology? that is set down to the answers we have heard | down to the answers we have heard this morning, given the evidence provided — this morning, given the evidence provided by his colleagues previously... provided by his colleagues previously. . ._ provided by his colleagues previously... provided by his colleagues reviousl ., ., ., previously... how do you feel about that? - inaudible any other questions? inaudible an otheruuestions? �* , any other questions? any one-to-ones? _ any other questions? any one-to-ones? fine, - any other questions? jifiy one—to—ones? fine, thank you. any other questions? any - one-to-ones? fine, thank you. you are watching _ one-to-ones? fine, thank you. you are watching bbc _ one—to—ones? fine, thank you. you are watching bbc news, we have just are watching bbc news, we havejust been hearing from a group called the covid bereaved families forjustice, outside the covid inquiry where the former prime minster borisjohnson has been giving his evidence today. the group at our number of people who have lost family members doing the pandemic. they all criticised boris johnson's the pandemic. they all criticised borisjohnson's appears so far at both for his behaviour in 2020 and the way he handled the start of the pandemic, and also his appearance at the covid inquiry stop one bereaved family member describing him as casual, careless, chaotic and certainly not contrite. let's get the headlines from borisjohnson's appears. firstly of his appearance at the inquiry. he has apologised for the pain, loss and suffering in the uk doing the pandemic and said he takes personal responsibility for mistakes made. mrjohnson, prime ministers throughout that period, had been giving evidence to the inquiry during questioning he said, government ministers did the best they could in very difficult circumstances. but admitted they could have done better.— circumstances. but admitted they could have done better. could i say b our could have done better. could i say by your leave _ could have done better. could i say by your leave that _ could have done better. could i say by your leave that i _ could have done better. could i say by your leave that i understand - could have done better. could i say by your leave that i understand the j by your leave that i understand the feelings of these victims had their families and i am deeply sorry for the pain and loss and suffering of those victims and their families? and grateful though i am to the hundreds of thousands of health care workers and many other public servants and people in all walks of life who helped to protect our country throughout a good full pandemic. mr country throughout a good full pandemic-— country throughout a good full andemic. ~ ., ., pandemic. mrjohnson has also told the covid inquiry — pandemic. mrjohnson has also told the covid inquiry that _ pandemic. mrjohnson has also told the covid inquiry that during - pandemic. mrjohnson has also told the covid inquiry that during the - the covid inquiry that during the pandemic they inevitably made mistakes. 50 pandemic they inevitably made mistakes. . , pandemic they inevitably made mistakes. ., , , , , mistakes. so many people suffered, so many people _ mistakes. so many people suffered, so many people lost _ mistakes. so many people suffered, so many people lost their _ mistakes. so many people suffered, so many people lost their lives. - so many people lost their lives. inevitably in the course of trying to handle and very difficult pandemic in which we had to balance appalling harms on either side of the decision, we may have made mistakes. i think... the decision, we may have made mistakes. ithink... i don't the decision, we may have made mistakes. i think... i don't want to try and anticipate the discussion which i'm sure we will get into about the timings of mpis, lockdowns, inevitably we got some things wrong. i think we were doing our best at the time put up given what we knew, given the information available at the time, we did our level best. whether things we should have done differently? unquestionably.- have done differently? unquestionably. have done differently? unauestionabl. ., ., ., unquestionably. you can follow the covid inquiry _ unquestionably. you can follow the covid inquiry on _ unquestionably. you can follow the covid inquiry on the _ unquestionably. you can follow the covid inquiry on the iplayer- unquestionably. you can follow the covid inquiry on the iplayer and - unquestionably. you can follow the covid inquiry on the iplayer and on | covid inquiry on the iplayer and on the bbc news live page as well. let's go back to the covid inquiry and our corresponding early price. you have been following the inquiry since its beginning, how does the atmosphere differed today with boris johnson giving his evidence to previous days that you have attended?— previous days that you have attended? ~ ~ , ., attended? well, i think you can robabl attended? well, i think you can probably see — attended? well, i think you can probably see there _ attended? well, i think you can probably see there are - attended? well, i think you can probably see there are far- attended? well, i think you canj probably see there are far more people outside that there had been on any other day doing this inquiry. we have got campaign groups representing bereaved families, campaign groups representing those against anti—vaccine groups, we have got people campaigning for those suffering with long covid, all standing outside, many have travelled hundreds of miles, most of them will not get tickets to be inside but they felt it important to be here to show solidarity with each other and also show borisjohnson how they are feeling. we had at that press conference earlier, i don't think borisjohnson has done enough for them to change their opinion of him, that apology seeming to do little to change their opinions on him at all. just how busy it is here gives you a sense of the stepping up. there is a sense that the last few weeks we have heard from scientist, civil servants, few weeks we have heard from scientist, civilservants, political scientist, civil servants, political aids, scientist, civilservants, political aids, other politicians last week, had been building to this moment because it is borisjohnson who made those decisions. the advice fade into him and in the end it was him who was responsible for those decisions. the key moments we heard this morning have been won on this idea of toxic culture at the centre of government, boris wasn't depending that slightly, and this idea he should have won earlier, to use his language, in the pandemic that this was going to be big —— should have twigged earlier. decision—making that could have happened earlier. i have our political correspond to pick through those key features. those are the key moments? in terms of what we have learned. key moments? in terms of what we have learned-— have learned. should have twigged sooner as mission _ have learned. should have twigged sooner as mission was _ have learned. should have twigged sooner as mission was quite - sooner as mission was quite important. what is this inquiry trying — important. what is this inquiry trying to— important. what is this inquiry trying to find out, this stage of the inquiry? did the government have the inquiry? did the government have the right— the inquiry? did the government have the right decision—making processes in place. _ the right decision—making processes in place, didn't act quickly enough? after— in place, didn't act quickly enough? after that _ in place, didn't act quickly enough? after that apology from johnson, for the pain— after that apology from johnson, for the pain and suffering caused by the pandemic, _ the pain and suffering caused by the pandemic, we had a deep dive into what _ pandemic, we had a deep dive into what was _ pandemic, we had a deep dive into what was going on injanuary, february. _ what was going on injanuary, february, march 2020 as the pandemic started _ february, march 2020 as the pandemic started to _ february, march 2020 as the pandemic started to emerge as the virus started — started to emerge as the virus started to _ started to emerge as the virus started to spread. essentially what johnson _ started to spread. essentially what johnson said was nobody was flagging this up— johnson said was nobody was flagging this up as _ johnson said was nobody was flagging this up as a _ johnson said was nobody was flagging this up as a big issue until late february— this up as a big issue until late february 2020. that is why he wasn't at those _ february 2020. that is why he wasn't at those emergency cobra meeting, the five _ at those emergency cobra meeting, the five he — at those emergency cobra meeting, the five he missed, that is why he wasn't _ the five he missed, that is why he wasn't doing more plan for a lockdown. but he did say, coupled things— lockdown. but he did say, coupled things i_ lockdown. but he did say, coupled things ijotted down, talking about the government being vastly underestimating the risk. that is significant. he is not saying it was him or— significant. he is not saying it was him or ministers but that was the whole _ him or ministers but that was the whole of— him or ministers but that was the whole of whitehall. and that we should _ whole of whitehall. and that we should have twigged sooner. important for working out what happened with the first lockdown and why in _ happened with the first lockdown and why in review of many it came to light _ why in review of many it came to li . ht. ~ why in review of many it came to li . ht. . ., why in review of many it came to li . ht. . . ., ., light. we have heard that in alread , light. we have heard that in already. the _ light. we have heard that in already, the first _ light. we have heard that in already, the first lockdownl light. we have heard that in - already, the first lockdown came to light. already, the first lockdown came to liuht. a, already, the first lockdown came to liuht. ., already, the first lockdown came to litht. ., light. matt hancock said it, could have been three _ light. matt hancock said it, could have been three weeks _ light. matt hancock said it, could have been three weeks earlier. it light. matt hancock said it, could i have been three weeks earlier. it is important _ have been three weeks earlier. it is important for that but also important for that but also important for that but also important for another thing johnson will be _ important for another thing johnson will be asked about maybe today or tomorrow. — will be asked about maybe today or tomorrow, the second lockdown, did the government learned the lessons of why. _ the government learned the lessons of why. of— the government learned the lessons of why, of not acting quickly enough and should — of why, of not acting quickly enough and should it have therefore be more nimble _ and should it have therefore be more nimble in _ and should it have therefore be more nimble in the second lockdown which again— nimble in the second lockdown which again many— nimble in the second lockdown which again many think came to late? plenty— again many think came to late? plenty of— again many think came to late? plenty of testimony from the scientists a few weeks ago, that second lockdown, there was more of a clarion call to lockdown earlier and it was much clearer, much earlier on, that you needed to lockdown earlier because the lessons had been learned from the first time that you couldn't control those fires and once in effect you realise it was going exponentially it was almost too late anyway. going exponentially it was almost too late anyway-— too late anyway. absolutely, that second lockdown, _ too late anyway. absolutely, that second lockdown, all— too late anyway. absolutely, that second lockdown, all of - too late anyway. absolutely, that second lockdown, all of this - too late anyway. absolutely, that second lockdown, all of this is . second lockdown, all of this is difficult — second lockdown, all of this is difficult and tricky for mrjohnson tojustify— difficult and tricky for mrjohnson tojustify my it is difficult and tricky for mrjohnson to justify my it is all about giving some _ to justify my it is all about giving some of— to justify my it is all about giving some of the families and public more of an insight to what happened, but that second lockdown in particular is going _ that second lockdown in particular is going to — that second lockdown in particular is going to be fascinating while here _ is going to be fascinating while here about it.— is going to be fascinating while here about it. . , _, ,, ., here about it. that second lockdown came in the — here about it. that second lockdown came in the autumn _ here about it. that second lockdown came in the autumn of _ here about it. that second lockdown came in the autumn of 2020, - here about it. that second lockdown came in the autumn of 2020, when | came in the autumn of 2020, when off—course time and time again as we have heard relations right at the centre of government, whether that be civil servants, advisers, was really souring. he talked about that toxic culture today. as you say, focusing on the earlier part of the pandemic, springtime, in a way he defended it, he wasn't being too personal about anyone in particular but defended the fact that it was a positive, he talked about the atmosphere of challenge at one point. atmosphere of challenge at one oint. ., ., ., point. comparing it to margaret thatcher and _ point. comparing it to margaret thatcher and tony _ point. comparing it to margaret thatcher and tony blair's - thatcher and tony blair's government, big characters, colourful— government, big characters, colourful people who like to argue, -ot colourful people who like to argue, got them _ colourful people who like to argue, got them to the right place. we didn't— got them to the right place. we didn't get that much scrutiny of that, _ didn't get that much scrutiny of that, i— didn't get that much scrutiny of that, i assume they will come back to it _ that, i assume they will come back to it it— that, i assume they will come back to it it felt— that, i assume they will come back to it. it felt to me and there were still a _ to it. it felt to me and there were still a lot— to it. it felt to me and there were still a lot of— to it. it felt to me and there were still a lot of unanswered questions. fundamentallyjohnson was being out when dominic cummings was sending off these _ when dominic cummings was sending off these expletive laden whatsapps to his colleagues, different people were slagging people off, the senior civil servant was writing, i have never _ civil servant was writing, i have never seen _ civil servant was writing, i have never seen a bunch of people less well—equipped govern a country, was that a _ well—equipped govern a country, was that a problem? johnson was saying, not sure _ that a problem? johnson was saying, not sure it _ that a problem? johnson was saying, not sure it was, in some ways he was arguing, _ not sure it was, in some ways he was arguing, we _ not sure it was, in some ways he was arguing, we have these unique insight — arguing, we have these unique insight into what was going on because — insight into what was going on because we have all these whatsapp messages. because we have all these whatsapp messaues. ~ . ., �* ., messages. which we wouldn't have in mar: aret messages. which we wouldn't have in margaret thatcher's _ messages. which we wouldn't have in margaret thatcher's time. _ messages. which we wouldn't have in margaret thatcher's time. all - messages. which we wouldn't have in margaret thatcher's time. all tony i margaret thatcher's time. all tony blair's. margaret thatcher's time. all tony itlair's- here _ margaret thatcher's time. all tony blair's. here trying _ margaret thatcher's time. all tony blair's. here trying to _ margaret thatcher's time. all tony blair's. here trying to say - margaret thatcher's time. all tony blair's. here trying to say it - margaret thatcher's time. all tony blair's. here trying to say it looksl blair's. here trying to say it looks bad but _ blair's. here trying to say it looks bad but that is because you are getting — bad but that is because you are getting the unedited version of our conversations. that getting the unedited version of our conversations.— conversations. that fits well with somethina conversations. that fits well with something we — conversations. that fits well with something we had _ conversations. that fits well with something we had last _ conversations. that fits well with something we had last week- conversations. that fits well with | something we had last week from michael gove who talked about but johnson's decision—making, flip—flopping, taking the opinion of the last person of the room, how he was called a trolley by dominic cummings latterly because he veered from decision to decision. what michael gove said is that his decision—making was gladiatorial, he liked to get the strong argument from each side and weigh them up and thatis from each side and weigh them up and that is how he made a decision. it may be seems that he was being indecisive but was because he was taking seriously bedside.— taking seriously bedside. johnson has had a lot _ taking seriously bedside. johnson has had a lot of— taking seriously bedside. johnson has had a lot of criticism - taking seriously bedside. johnson has had a lot of criticism here - taking seriously bedside. johnson | has had a lot of criticism here over the last— has had a lot of criticism here over the last few— has had a lot of criticism here over the last few weeks for being too slow, _ the last few weeks for being too slow, not — the last few weeks for being too slow, not taking those crucial calls at the _ slow, not taking those crucial calls at the right — slow, not taking those crucial calls at the right time, but you are right, — at the right time, but you are right, he _ at the right time, but you are right, he has also defended himself by pointing out that some of the advice _ by pointing out that some of the advice he — by pointing out that some of the advice he was getting was starting to shift _ advice he was getting was starting to shift i— advice he was getting was starting to shift. i think it is fair to say that— to shift. i think it is fair to say that some _ to shift. i think it is fair to say that some of the science did change over time, _ that some of the science did change overtime, it— that some of the science did change overtime, it did that some of the science did change over time, it did evolve, use the example — over time, it did evolve, use the example of— over time, it did evolve, use the example of facemasks. you might remember— example of facemasks. you might remember press conferences where the country— remember press conferences where the country were told we were not told it was _ country were told we were not told it was much — country were told we were not told it was much point in wearing them, months _ it was much point in wearing them, months later they were told, you have _ months later they were told, you have to _ months later they were told, you have to wear them outdoors and in public _ have to wear them outdoors and in public part— have to wear them outdoors and in public. part of his defence is, yes, i changed — public. part of his defence is, yes, i changed my mind but things changed. _ i changed my mind but things changed, sometimes fairly regularly. the question i think we'll get this afternoon — the question i think we'll get this afternoon and over the course of tomorrow — afternoon and over the course of tomorrow as well is, those points were _ tomorrow as well is, those points were beyond the first lockdown, coming — were beyond the first lockdown, coming to — were beyond the first lockdown, coming to the second in the autumn, when _ coming to the second in the autumn, when your— coming to the second in the autumn, when your getting clearer advice, when _ when your getting clearer advice, when different people were a lot keener— when different people were a lot keener on locking down earlier, why didn't— keener on locking down earlier, why didn't she _ keener on locking down earlier, why didn't she do it? i suspect part of the answer— didn't she do it? i suspect part of the answer will be an argument we have heard — the answer will be an argument we have heard from a lot of people, particularly in the conservative party. — particularly in the conservative party. it — particularly in the conservative party. it is _ particularly in the conservative party, it is because of the economic impact, _ party, it is because of the economic impact, so — party, it is because of the economic impact, so gargantuan, and a lot of negative _ impact, so gargantuan, and a lot of negative impact on lockdown. a lot still to _ negative impact on lockdown. a lot still to tackle.— still to tackle. there certainly is, i will leave _ still to tackle. there certainly is, i will leave it _ still to tackle. there certainly is, i will leave it there, _ still to tackle. there certainly is, i will leave it there, you - still to tackle. there certainly is, i will leave it there, you need . still to tackle. there certainly is, i will leave it there, you need to| i will leave it there, you need to go get some lunch before we start backin go get some lunch before we start back in not very long. testing times here at the covid inquiry, unprecedented scenes in terms of the number of people here, milling about outside, wanted to make their voices heard, but they did make their voices heard, or at least quietly made them heard, deborah number of protesters who were in the inquiry room and protested to borisjohnson while he was there. the room and protested to boris johnson while he was there.— while he was there. the pain and loss and suffering... _ while he was there. the pain and loss and suffering... please, - while he was there. the pain and i loss and suffering... please, stop, lease loss and suffering... please, stop, please set — loss and suffering... please, stop, please set down. _ loss and suffering... please, stop, please set down. please, - loss and suffering... please, stop, please set down. please, sit - loss and suffering... please, stop, please set down. please, sit down | loss and suffering... please, stop, i please set down. please, sit down or i'm afraid _ please set down. please, sit down or i'm afraid you — please set down. please, sit down or i'm afraid you will— please set down. please, sit down or i'm afraid you will have _ please set down. please, sit down or i'm afraid you will have to _ please set down. please, sit down or i'm afraid you will have to leave - i'm afraid you will have to leave the hearing _ i'm afraid you will have to leave the hearing room. _ i'm afraid you will have to leave the hearing room. i'm- i'm afraid you will have to leave the hearing room. i'm sorry, i i'm afraid you will have to leave the hearing room. i'm sorry, ifl i'm afraid you will have to leave i the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you don't _ the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit _ the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down _ the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and _ the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and i _ the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and i will— the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and i will ask- the hearing room. i'm sorry, if you don't sit down and i will ask the i don't sit down and i will ask the ushers— don't sit down and i will ask the ushers to — don't sit down and i will ask the ushers to get _ don't sit down and i will ask the ushers to get you _ don't sit down and i will ask the ushers to get you to _ don't sit down and i will ask the ushers to get you to leave. - don't sit down and i will ask the i ushers to get you to leave. right, ushers, _ ushers to get you to leave. right, ushers, please— ushers to get you to leave. right, ushers, please ask _ ushers to get you to leave. right, ushers, please ask them - ushers to get you to leave. right, ushers, please ask them to - ushers to get you to leave. right, | ushers, please ask them to leave. very— ushers, please ask them to leave. very gentle — ushers, please ask them to leave. very gentle there _ ushers, please ask them to leave. very gentle there in _ ushers, please ask them to leave. very gentle there in her— ushers, please ask them to leave. very gentle there in her pleading i ushers, please ask them to leave. very gentle there in her pleading to leave, she has been careful to make sure that people feel like their voices are being heard, particularly those from bereaved families. we caught up with one of the protesters after she came out from the inquiry room after that. we after she came out from the inquiry room after that.— after she came out from the inquiry room after that. we had been treated articularl room after that. we had been treated particularly badly _ room after that. we had been treated particularly badly by _ room after that. we had been treated particularly badly by the _ room after that. we had been treated particularly badly by the inquiry. - particularly badly by the inquiry. we haven't been allowed to protest at the entrance, or to have a vigilante entrance, we have been put into a pen you can see behind us, —— are to have a vigil at the entrance. we moved around by security and just generally not treated with respect. baroness hallett promised us the bereaved would be at the heart of the inquiry. personally i feel that we are being marginalised and have continued to be marginalised throughout. continued to be marginalised throughout-— continued to be marginalised throughout. continued to be marginalised throu:hout. . , ., throughout. personally i don't want to hear empty _ throughout. personally i don't want to hear empty words _ throughout. personally i don't want to hear empty words from - throughout. personally i don't want to hear empty words from him. - throughout. personally i don't want to hear empty words from him. i i to hear empty words from him. i would _ to hear empty words from him. i would like — to hear empty words from him. i would like him to tell the truth. i would _ would like him to tell the truth. i would like — would like him to tell the truth. i would like the inquiry to be given the opportunity to find out what went wrong which led to over 233,000 people being dead. you went wrong which led to over 233,000 people being dead-— people being dead. you stood up at the back, people being dead. you stood up at the back. what _ people being dead. you stood up at the back, what did _ people being dead. you stood up at the back, what did you _ people being dead. you stood up at the back, what did you do? - people being dead. you stood up at the back, what did you do? we - people being dead. you stood up at the back, what did you do? we just| the back, what did you do? we 'ust not these the back, what did you do? we 'ust got these signs fl the back, what did you do? we 'ust got these signs out. i the back, what did you do? we 'ust got these signs out. we * the back, what did you do? we just got these signs out. we student. the back, what did you do? we just got these signs out. we student upj got these signs out. we student up at the _ got these signs out. we student up at the very— got these signs out. we student up at the very back, didn't like anybody's view, stood up, got the side that— anybody's view, stood up, got the side that and help them against our chest~ _ side that and help them against our chest. , chest. the inquiry will get under wa in chest. the inquiry will get under way in about _ chest. the inquiry will get under way in about the _ chest. the inquiry will get under way in about the neck _ chest. the inquiry will get under way in about the neck 10-15 - chest. the inquiry will get under - way in about the neck 10-15 minutes way in about the neck 10—15 minutes and you can watch continuous coverage on the iplayer. one thing to quickly note before the end of all of this, baroness hallett last week made it quite clear, she had done it again today, the chair of the inquiry pointing out that no one will be personally blamed for anything that happened during the pandemic, of course the whole point of this inquiry is to learn lessons about decision—making and structures of government. that is worth bearing in mind but of course you can see from all the people here that boris johnson may well feel it is his reputation on trial today. thank you. funding for article two cases as one way of achieving that. does he agree with that evidence? reputation on trial today. thank you. you can follow the and also on the bbc live page. also coverage of other major uk story which is the government response to

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