was good enough but we made a huge effort to equip our country with what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, _ what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, there _ what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, there was - what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, there was an - what was necessary. sometimes you didn't have ppe, there was an issue | didn't have ppe, there was an issue at times, was there not, in relation to ppe not being culturally appropriate? people with beards, religious outfits, things like that. or you wear that? that religious outfits, things like that. or you wear that?— or you wear that? that was not excluded to _ or you wear that? that was not excluded to me, _ or you wear that? that was not excluded to me, i— or you wear that? that was not excluded to me, i was - or you wear that? that was not l excluded to me, i was concerned or you wear that? that was not - excluded to me, i was concerned that everybody should have the best possible protection. flan everybody should have the best possible protection.— everybody should have the best possible protection. can you share with us reflections _ possible protection. can you share with us reflections on _ possible protection. can you share with us reflections on how- possible protection. can you share with us reflections on how the - with us reflections on how the findings of this report influenced subsequent actions and policies aimed at mitigating these disparities? i aimed at mitigating these disparities?— aimed at mitigating these disparities? aimed at mitigating these disarities? ~ . ., disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to _ disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to make _ disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to make sure _ disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to make sure that - disparities? i think what we wanted to do was to make sure that the - to do was to make sure that the incredible front line staff at the nhs had greater protection above all by being less overworked and one of the things that the pandemic was a terrible time but one of the things that we did was not only to embark on a programme of hospital building, but recruiting 50,000 more nurses and i think we are well on the way to achieving that now. if you are a nurse or a front line worker, then clearly one of the best ways to mitigate the risk that you face and the disproportionate risk you face as a black, asian ethnic minority worker is having a neck repair plans to help you. that was one of the key objectives of the programme. it is a very large programme, the repent of other things the nhs now has, more people in it than it is ever had... thank you. we have limited time, mr johnson _ thank you. we have limited time, mr johnson i— thank you. we have limited time, mr johnson. . , �* ., thank you. we have limited time, mr johnson. . , ., , johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me — johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. _ johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. i _ johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. i would _ johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. i would not. - johnson. i am sure you're not trying to talk me down. i would not. you | to talk me down. i would not. you would not — to talk me down. i would not. you would not dream _ to talk me down. i would not. you would not dream of _ to talk me down. i would not. you would not dream of that, - to talk me down. i would not. you would not dream of that, mr - to talk me down. i would not. you - would not dream of that, mrjohnson. would not dream of that, mrjohnson. given the first indications of startling disproportionate rates of infection in ethnic minority communities which began to emerge in late march, early april, can we agree on this? can we agree that there were earlier opportunities for more substantial engagement, can we agree on that? j more substantial engagement, can we agree on that?— agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? _ agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let _ agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let me _ agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let me be _ agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let me be blunt, - agree on that? i don't know what you mean by that? let me be blunt, yourj mean by that? let me be blunt, your government — mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could _ mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a _ mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot _ mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot of— mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot of done - mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot of done a - mean by that? let me be blunt, your government could a lot of done a lot| government could a lot of done a lot more, a lot earlier?— more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have _ more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we _ more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we could _ more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we could to - more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we could to get - more, a lot earlier? well, we did would have we could to get all. more, a lot earlier? well, we didl would have we could to get all our staff the equipment that we... it staff the equipment that we... ut was not enough, mrjohnson, was it? we worked incredibly hard and fast to get the equip and we needed. that doesn't mean that i am not conscious of the immense effort... we doesn't mean that i am not conscious of the immense effort. . ._ of the immense effort... we were cla -|n~ of the immense effort... we were clapping for— of the immense effort... we were clapping for them. _ of the immense effort... we were clapping for them, dear _ of the immense effort... we were | clapping for them, dear member? of the immense effort... we were i clapping for them, dear member? i of the immense effort... we were - clapping for them, dear member? i do and imdb conscious of the sacrifice they made. and imdb conscious of the sacrifice the made. ., , and imdb conscious of the sacrifice the made. ., .,, . and imdb conscious of the sacrifice they made-— they made. last topic and then i will sit down _ they made. last topic and then i will sit down and _ they made. last topic and then i will sit down and shut _ they made. last topic and then i will sit down and shut up. - they made. last topic and then i will sit down and shut up. in - they made. last topic and then i | will sit down and shut up. in your witness statement, you say, quote, i was not provided with, and did not consider any equality impact assessments while making decisions about imposing, easing or making exceptions to npi is, but that is not to say i didn't receive and consider many documents containing details of the effects of lockdown across society or equalities and distributional impacts. end of code. question, in the absence of such assessments, can you shed light on the sources of intelligence or information that informed you, informs your understanding of the disproportionate impact of npi is on ethnic mineral to groups? what were the sources of your intelligence and information?— information? there was data that i saw, i information? there was data that i saw. i cannot _ information? there was data that i saw, i cannot tell _ information? there was data that i saw, i cannot tell you _ information? there was data that i saw, i cannot tell you exactly - information? there was data that i saw, i cannot tell you exactly the l saw, i cannot tell you exactly the provenance but there was data that suggested that when you come to look down is, people from the bang that she communities were four times more lucky to be engaged in closed sectors, people from the pakistani community where, i think, twice as likely to be engaged in closed sectors. from my own extensive work as chairman of transport for london, and all the work i did as mayor, it told me that the massive disproportionate impact measures such as closures of retail hospitality and so on are likely to have on those very groups. in a way, i did not need... you have on those very groups. in a way, i did not need...— i did not need... you didn't need the intelligence, _ i did not need... you didn't need the intelligence, you _ i did not need... you didn't need the intelligence, you knew? - i did not need. .. you didn't need the intelligence, you knew? i - i did not need... you didn't need| the intelligence, you knew? i was iaettin the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data _ the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data but _ the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data but i _ the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data but i also _ the intelligence, you knew? i was getting data but i also knew- the intelligence, you knew? iwas getting data but i also knew that these measures were likely to be disproportionately.— disproportionately. thank you. i concede 30 _ disproportionately. thank you. i concede 30 seconds _ disproportionately. thank you. i concede 30 seconds under- disproportionately. thank you. i concede 30 seconds under my l disproportionately. thank you. i - concede 30 seconds under my time. thank you both. i will ask a small number of questions on behalf of the long covid-i9 — questions on behalf of the long covid—i9 groups. matt hancock and dominic_ covid—i9 groups. matt hancock and dominic cummings have covid—19 groups. matt hancock and dominic cummings have said that they were advised in early 2020 about the possibility— were advised in early 2020 about the possibility of longer term sequoia the of— possibility of longer term sequoia the of covid—19 by both patrick balance — the of covid—19 by both patrick balance and chris witty. on the 17th of may _ balance and chris witty. on the 17th of may 2020, you shared an article about— of may 2020, you shared an article about people reporting a prolonged that my— about people reporting a prolonged that my symptoms of covid—19 in a whatsapp — that my symptoms of covid—19 in a whatsapp group with them all. in short. _ whatsapp group with them all. in short. did — whatsapp group with them all. in short, did you also receive advice about— short, did you also receive advice about long—term sequelae from chris witty at— about long—term sequelae from chris witty at that time? not about long-term sequelae from chris witty at that time?— witty at that time? not as far as i can remember— witty at that time? not as far as i can remember about _ witty at that time? not as far as i can remember about that - witty at that time? not as far as i can remember about that time. i | witty at that time? not as far as i i can remember about that time. i do remember repeatedly asking for advice and i think that i finally got a paperfrom memory in summer of 2021. got a paper from memory in summer of 2021. , . ., ., ., got a paper from memory in summer of 2021. , _, ., ., ., 2021. yes, we will come to that. you were never — 2021. yes, we will come to that. you were never provided _ 2021. yes, we will come to that. you were never provided with _ 2021. yes, we will come to that. you were never provided with scientific . were never provided with scientific advice _ were never provided with scientific advice doubting the existence of long _ advice doubting the existence of long covid. yet you said that you were _ long covid. yet you said that you were only — long covid. yet you said that you were only persuaded that long covid existed _ were only persuaded that long covid existed in— were only persuaded that long covid existed injune 2021, you have referred — existed injune 2021, you have referred to that. i existed in june 2021, you have referred to that.— referred to that. i did not say that, i referred to that. i did not say that. l was — referred to that. i did not say that, i was only _ referred to that. i did not say that, i was only given - referred to that. i did not say i that, i was only given scientific advice on long covid injune 21. yes, i was asking questions about when _ yes, i was asking questions about when you — yes, i was asking questions about when you are persuaded. you were only convinced by chris witty that long _ only convinced by chris witty that long covid was a serious problem when _ long covid was a serious problem when from — long covid was a serious problem when from july 2020, you had been receiving _ when from july 2020, you had been receiving letters from patient advocates and members of parliament asking _ advocates and members of parliament asking for— advocates and members of parliament asking for formal recognition of long _ asking for formal recognition of long covid. in september 2020, matt hancock— long covid. in september 2020, matt hancock reminded you about long covid _ hancock reminded you about long covid in _ hancock reminded you about long covid. in october 2020, the hancock reminded you about long covid. in 0ctober2020, the nhs announced a five—point plan for long covid _ announced a five—point plan for long covid and _ announced a five—point plan for long covid and on — announced a five—point plan for long covid and on the 13th of october 2020. _ covid and on the 13th of october 2020, sir— covid and on the 13th of october 2020, sir patrick balance advised you about — 2020, sir patrick balance advised you about considering long covid in a cabinet _ you about considering long covid in a cabinet meeting and he said in evidence — a cabinet meeting and he said in evidence here that he described long covid to _ evidence here that he described long covid to you and you were sceptical about _ covid to you and you were sceptical about it _ covid to you and you were sceptical about it. when was this? 13th of october— about it. when was this? 13th of october 2020. about it. when was this? 13th of 0ctober2020. i about it. when was this? 13th of october 2020. i have given you a sequence — october 2020. i have given you a sequence ofjuly to october. why wasn't _ sequence ofjuly to october. why wasn't this overwhelming body of advice _ wasn't this overwhelming body of advice and correspondence in 2020 sufficient _ advice and correspondence in 2020 sufficient to persuade you that long covid _ sufficient to persuade you that long covid was _ sufficient to persuade you that long covid was a — sufficient to persuade you that long covid was a serious problem at that time? _ covid was a serious problem at that time? |_ covid was a serious problem at that time? ., �* ., i. ., ~' time? i don't want you to think, first of all, _ time? i don't want you to think, first of all, don't _ time? i don't want you to think, first of all, don't want _ time? i don't want you to think, first of all, don't want any - time? i don't want you to think, first of all, don't want any body| time? i don't want you to think, l first of all, don't want any body to think that i didn't think that it could be a serious problem. what i wanted to know was the evidence. i wanted to know was the evidence. i wanted to know was the evidence. i wanted to understand what exactly it consisted in and how i should explain it to people, what the symptoms exactly where, and what kind of a syndrome it really was. i was having some difficulty getting a clear picture. that was the reality. this is a question, it appears, in relation — this is a question, it appears, in relation to— this is a question, it appears, in relation to formal written advice but in _ relation to formal written advice but in october 2020, referred to the first report _ but in october 2020, referred to the first report into long covid, a research _ first report into long covid, a research paper that had already been published _ research paper that had already been published on long covid at that time _ published on long covid at that time it— published on long covid at that time. it laid out symptom until on long _ time. it laid out symptom until on long covid — time. it laid out symptom until on long covid. if you wanted advice, why didn't — long covid. if you wanted advice, why didn't you simply advice for that report to be provided to you? | that report to be provided to you? i did that report to be provided to you? did ask for that report to be provided to you? i did ask for the evidence, i did ask for reports to be provided and eventually one was provided. i think there is a slight conceptual, first of all i wish to again recognise the hurt that those words must have caused to people suffering from long covid and the very real suffering that they endured. but what, when i referred to gulf war syndrome, i was making, i think, referred to gulf war syndrome, i was making, ithink, irritable referred to gulf war syndrome, i was making, i think, irritable question and i'm sure that you would not say that everybody suffering from gulf war syndrome was mistaken. i don't want to develop _ war syndrome was mistaken. i don't want to develop that _ war syndrome was mistaken. i don't want to develop that gulf _ war syndrome was mistaken. i don't want to develop that gulf war - want to develop that gulf war syndrome but i want to ask you, do you agree _ syndrome but i want to ask you, do you agree that you never asked for the report— you agree that you never asked for the report to be provided to you? | the report to be provided to you? certainly the report to be provided to you? i certainly asked for a vague report to be provided into long covid and it was eventually provided but much later on. ., ., ., later on. so, not that report, do ou later on. so, not that report, do you agree? _ later on. so, not that report, do you agree? yes. _ later on. so, not that report, do you agree? yes. thank- later on. so, not that report, do you agree? yes. thank you. - later on. so, not that report, do you agree? yes. thank you. in | later on. so, not that report, do i you agree? yes. thank you. in july you agree? yes. thank you. injuly 2021. _ you agree? yes. thank you. injuly 2021, the _ you agree? yes. thank you. injuly 2021, the cabinet office planned a policy _ 2021, the cabinet office planned a policy which accepted high prevalence of coverage 19. it noted that the _ prevalence of coverage 19. it noted that the strategy was to live with covid-19 — that the strategy was to live with covid—19 without restrictions and one rist— covid—19 without restrictions and one risk was noted as higher rate of long _ one risk was noted as higher rate of long covid — one risk was noted as higher rate of long covid. the autumn winter plan of 2021 _ long covid. the autumn winter plan of 2021 2022 published in september 2021 emphasised building defences through— 2021 emphasised building defences through pharmaceutical interventions and for— through pharmaceutical interventions and for long covid, only acknowledge the need _ and for long covid, only acknowledge the need for treatment. there was no effective _ the need for treatment. there was no effective treatment for long covid as there _ effective treatment for long covid as there were no pharmaceutical interventions to prevent its development and you agree the best way to— development and you agree the best way to prevent long covid is to prevent — way to prevent long covid is to prevent infection of covid—19. did the government choose to adopt a policy— the government choose to adopt a policy which you knew would result in a significant number of people, including — in a significant number of people, including young people, suffering from long covid?— including young people, suffering from long covid? what we did was to t to fiiht from long covid? what we did was to try to fight covid-19, _ from long covid? what we did was