something that was very dangerous. there were also, as time went on, there was more evidence about droplet spray and so on and the potential of masks to interrupt transmission. so what you are seeing their in that exchange is a natural political result of a change in advice and a change in understanding of the virus eventually bringing about a change in policy and that is what you would expect. it’s about a change in policy and that is what you would expect.— about a change in policy and that is what you would expect. it's what we are seeinu what you would expect. it's what we are seeing here _ what you would expect. it's what we are seeing here in _ what you would expect. it's what we are seeing here in fact _ what you would expect. it's what we are seeing here in fact quite - what you would expect. it's what we are seeing here in fact quite simply| are seeing here in fact quite simply what is _ are seeing here in fact quite simply what is on — are seeing here in fact quite simply what is on the page, in that you describe, — what is on the page, in that you describe, well i will not repeat your— describe, well i will not repeat your words, describe, well i will not repeat yourwords, but describe, well i will not repeat your words, but a wrong—headed mask policy _ your words, but a wrong—headed mask policy. there _ your words, but a wrong—headed mask policy. there is then an exchange... if policy. there is then an exchange... if youhe _ policy. there is then an exchange... if you're going to dispute that, i will repeat it.— if you're going to dispute that, i will repeat it. you are running out of time so — will repeat it. you are running out of time so if _ will repeat it. you are running out of time so if you _ will repeat it. you are running out of time so if you want _ will repeat it. you are running out of time so if you want to - will repeat it. you are running out of time so if you want to pursue i of time so if you want to pursue this, _ of time so if you want to pursue this, i_ of time so if you want to pursue this, ithink— of time so if you want to pursue this, i think you _ of time so if you want to pursue this, i think you have _ of time so if you want to pursue this, i think you have got - of time so if you want to pursue this, i think you have got an- this, i think you have got an answeh _ this, i think you have got an answer. ., . this, i think you have got an answer. . . ., this, i think you have got an answer. . . . , answer. the ad'ective are used, which i would — answer. the adjective are used, which i would not _ answer. the adjective are used, which i would not repeat, - answer. the adjective are used, which i would not repeat, was i which i would not repeat, was intended to convey that my sense of a mask policy which had been in position one was going to have to change because of changing scientific advice and changing appreciation of the value of masks. that was the reality. it was going to be political difficult to execute but we were going to have to do it. i will try to deal with my last topic— i will try to deal with my last with very— i will try to deal with my last topic very quickly. you describe your— topic very quickly. you describe your concern to lockdown hitting the pyrrhus. _ your concern to lockdown hitting the pyrrhus. do — your concern to lockdown hitting the pyrrhus, do you think it is right side _ pyrrhus, do you think it is right side that— pyrrhus, do you think it is right side that self isolation also hit the poorest hardest and was it understood that by you that financial support for self isolation was one — financial support for self isolation was one way of mitigating the unequal— was one way of mitigating the unequal impact of the pandemic? yes, and that is why — unequal impact of the pandemic? yes, and that is why we _ unequal impact of the pandemic? 133 and that is why we had notjust unequal impact of the pandemic? 133 and that is why we had not just the and that is why we had notjust the £500 to help isolation payment but also we increased universal credit by £1000, working family tax credit ijy by £1000, working family tax credit by £1000, working family tax credit by £1000 and gave councils a very large budget to deal with those who were most in need of help.- were most in need of help. finally, if that is the _ were most in need of help. finally, if that is the case, _ were most in need of help. finally, if that is the case, why _ were most in need of help. finally, if that is the case, why was - were most in need of help. finally, if that is the case, why was it - were most in need of help. finally, if that is the case, why was it not i if that is the case, why was it not until_ if that is the case, why was it not until the — if that is the case, why was it not until the end of september before that payment to which you refer was introduced? for that payment to which you refer was introduced? ., ., ,., , that payment to which you refer was introduced?— introduced? for the reasons i think we discussed _ introduced? for the reasons i think we discussed earlier. _ introduced? for the reasons i think we discussed earlier. i _ introduced? for the reasons i think we discussed earlier. i was - introduced? for the reasons i think| we discussed earlier. i was anxious, we discussed earlier. i was anxious, we had spent a huge amount supporting the country already through the pandemic. i was anxious about some of the distorting effects of payments to isolate. we discussed the punitive approach but eventually i thought, we had better go with some more support is muffled and we did. mr; some more support is muffled and we did. 3 ., , some more support is muffled and we did. 3 . , ., ~ some more support is muffled and we did. 3 ._ ., ~ some more support is muffled and we did. 3 ._ ., mr some more support is muffled and we did-_ mrjohnson. i did. my lady, thank you. mrjohnson, he chose to — did. my lady, thank you. mrjohnson, he chose to sit _ did. my lady, thank you. mrjohnson, he chose to sit over _ did. my lady, thank you. mrjohnson, he chose to sit over there _ did. my lady, thank you. mrjohnson, he chose to sit over there so - did. my lady, thank you. mrjohnson, he chose to sit over there so don't i he chose to sit over there so don't worry, _ he chose to sit over there so don't worry, he — he chose to sit over there so don't worry, he is— he chose to sit over there so don't worry, he is used _ he chose to sit over there so don't worry, he is used to _ he chose to sit over there so don't worry, he is used to sitting - he chose to sit over there so don't worry, he is used to sitting at - he chose to sit over there so don't worry, he is used to sitting at thei worry, he is used to sitting at the hack_ worry, he is used to sitting at the back because _ worry, he is used to sitting at the back because we _ worry, he is used to sitting at the back because we need _ worry, he is used to sitting at the back because we need you - worry, he is used to sitting at the back because we need you to - worry, he is used to sitting at the| back because we need you to face worry, he is used to sitting at the - back because we need you to face the microphone. — back because we need you to face the microphone. mr— back because we need you to face the microphone, mrjohnson. _ back because we need you to face the microphone, mrjohnson. address- back because we need you to face the i microphone, mrjohnson. address your answers— microphone, mrjohnson. address your answers to _ microphone, mrjohnson. address your answers to me — microphone, mrjohnson. address your answers to me then. _ microphone, mrjohnson. address your answers to me then. good _ microphone, mrjohnson. address your answers to me then.— answers to me then. good afternoon, mrjohnson- — answers to me then. good afternoon, mrjohnson- i— answers to me then. good afternoon, mrjohnson. i would _ answers to me then. good afternoon, mrjohnson. i would like _ answers to me then. good afternoon, mrjohnson. i would like to _ answers to me then. good afternoon, mrjohnson. i would like to ask - answers to me then. good afternoon, mrjohnson. i would like to ask you i mrjohnson. i would like to ask you a question— mrjohnson. i would like to ask you a question on behalf of the british medicai— a question on behalf of the british medical association about the removal— medical association about the removal of legal limits on social contact — removal of legal limits on social contact during the summer of 2021. it contact during the summer of 2021. it has _ contact during the summer of 2021. it has been — contact during the summer of 2021. it has been described as freedom day. it has been described as freedom day in _ it has been described as freedom day in his— it has been described as freedom day. in his witness statement to the inquiry, _ day. in his witness statement to the inquiry, professor philip banfield, the current chair of the bma, raises concerns— the current chair of the bma, raises concerns about the government's framing _ concerns about the government's framing of— concerns about the government's framing of the removal of restrictions in the context of freedom _ restrictions in the context of freedom. we send the wrong message that the _ freedom. we send the wrong message that the threat of the virus had been _ that the threat of the virus had been fully contained. in sajid javid's— been fully contained. in sajid javid's witness statement, he claims that by— javid's witness statement, he claims that by late autumn and early winter of 2021, _ that by late autumn and early winter of 2021, many felt the pandemic was over, _ of 2021, many felt the pandemic was over. only— of 2021, many felt the pandemic was over, only for protective measures to be _ over, only for protective measures to be needed once again on the 8th of december 2021 in response to the emergence _ of december 2021 in response to the emergence of the omicron very mint which _ emergence of the omicron very mint which you _ emergence of the omicron very mint which you discussed earlier. the question— which you discussed earlier. the question is, to what extent do you think— question is, to what extent do you think this — question is, to what extent do you think this mistaken belief that the putter— think this mistaken belief that the putter was over was influenced by government messaging which framed the removal of public health restrictions, protections as freedom?— restrictions, protections as freedom? ~ , ., restrictions, protections as freedom? , ., , freedom? well, i accept that people are auoin freedom? well, i accept that people are going to — freedom? well, i accept that people are going to quarrel _ freedom? well, i accept that people are going to quarrel with _ freedom? well, i accept that people are going to quarrel with some - freedom? well, i accept that people are going to quarrel with some of i are going to quarrel with some of the language that we choose and i have a massive respect for the bma but i think if you look at the curve of the pandemic and where we are aware we were then in that period of july aware we were then in that period of july 2021, but was to go on, the subsequent movement of the epic curve, i think it was not an irrational choice of expression, we had been able to get a huge amount of resistance into the arms of the british public, but i think by that stage, vaccinated all the elderly and vulnerable, it was an amazing achievement and i didn't think it was an inappropriate way to talk about it. as i said in my answer to the gentleman from the tuc, i was concerned that we were going to remain too much, too cautious for too long. i think we needed to understand that we had achieved a great deal and that if it was not quite the end, it was at least the beginning of the end.— quite the end, it was at least the beginning of the end. thank you, can i 'ust ask beginning of the end. thank you, can ijust ask quickly _ beginning of the end. thank you, can i just ask quickly a _ beginning of the end. thank you, can i just ask quickly a follow-up? - i just ask quickly a follow—up? accepting _ i just ask quickly a follow—up? accepting that the slogan, freedom day, was _ accepting that the slogan, freedom day, was not a government communication strategy, but once it had taken _ communication strategy, but once it had taken hold in public consciousness, do you think more should _ consciousness, do you think more should have — consciousness, do you think more should have been done to counter that belief, having regard to the need _ that belief, having regard to the need for— that belief, having regard to the need for precautionary approach? honestly, — need for precautionary approach? honestly, no. need for precautionary approach? honestly. no— need for precautionary approach? honestly, no. need for precautionary approach? honestl , no. ., ,, , ., , ., honestly, no. thank you, my lady for to that honestly, no. thank you, my lady for top that completes _ honestly, no. thank you, my lady for top that completes the _ honestly, no. thank you, my lady for top that completes the evidence - honestly, no. thank you, my lady for top that completes the evidence for l top that completes the evidence for today _ top that completes the evidence for toda . ., ~ top that completes the evidence for toda . ., ,, i. top that completes the evidence for toda . . ~' ,, , top that completes the evidence for toda. ., , . today. thank you very much indeed, mrjohnson- — today. thank you very much indeed, mrjohnson. that _ today. thank you very much indeed, mrjohnson. that concludes - today. thank you very much indeed, mrjohnson. that concludes the - today. thank you very much indeed, mrjohnson. that concludes the end | mrjohnson. that concludes the end ofthe mrjohnson. that concludes the end of the second _ mrjohnson. that concludes the end of the second day _ mrjohnson. that concludes the end of the second day of— mrjohnson. that concludes the end of the second day of hearing - of the second day of hearing evidence from the former prime minister, borisjohnson. let us go straight to our news correspondence who was there and has been listening. of course, we heard just there ending the evidence, we heard from the british medical association and the trade unions congress but a lot of this afternoon was about hearing from bereaved families and their victims through their lawyers, wasn't it? , ., their victims through their lawyers, wasn't it? , . ., , ~ wasn't it? yes, and it has felt like a lona wasn't it? yes, and it has felt like a long couple _ wasn't it? yes, and it has felt like a long couple of— wasn't it? yes, and it has felt like a long couple of days, _ wasn't it? yes, and it has felt like a long couple of days, hasn't - wasn't it? yes, and it has felt like a long couple of days, hasn't it? | a long couple of days, hasn't it? quite emotional, notjust for boris johnson. i spoke to a few people who have lost loved ones during the pandemic who travelled down to london today, some hundreds of miles, to be in the inquiry room or indeed standing outside, campaigning. they have found it quite emotional. they have been through some of the more personal language, language that boris johnson was never meant to see the light of day, it was private communications in whatsapp messages and diary entries. i think it is made for quite difficult listening. this afternoon, not only have we heard of the likes of the trade unions congress, the british medical association, those suffering from long covid, children's groups, people representing minority ethnic groups, we have also heard from groups, we have also heard from groups representing bereaved families so and of a lot of different issues for borisjohnson to get to. one of those groups representing bereaved families in northern ireland questioned him again on this issue of party gait. i again on this issue of party gait. i have extensively tried to explain how i_ have extensively tried to explain how i think that came about and why ithink— how i think that came about and why i think the _ how i think that came about and why i think the people who were working in downing — i think the people who were working in downing street for a very long time _ in downing street for a very long time and — in downing street for a very long time and very hard, believed that they were — time and very hard, believed that they were operating and working within— they were operating and working within the rules at the time. though. _ within the rules at the time. though, as they say to you and to those _ though, as they say to you and to those you — though, as they say to you and to those you represent, and again to many, _ those you represent, and again to many, i— those you represent, and again to many, i understand fully the point that you _ many, i understand fully the point that you are making and i regret it very much — very much. we - very much. we knew the issue would very much. — we knew the issue would come up, did not come up yesterday so it was bound to come up today. such a huge part of the end of borisjohnson�*s career as prime minister and it was something talked this morning as well when the council to the inquiry asked borisjohnson about it. boris johnson said the problem with party gait was the characterisation that everyone in downing street was basically breaking the rules was millions of miles from the truth and it was absurd, the idea that was happening so routinely. obviously it is something that really, really angered families, of him are here today and we'rejust angered families, of him are here today and we're just waiting for borisjohnson to the building. so inevitably it was going to come up and it was an emotional, notjust for those listening, but boris johnson as well. he got upset at times, it would seem. he seemed genuinely sorry and concerned for the hurt he had caused but obviously for those listening. there are also groups representing minority ethnic groups, they asked the question, how the government considered enough that there were certain groups, including minority ethnic groups, that seemed to be disproportionately affected by covid—19. i that seemed to be disproportionately affected by covid-19._ affected by covid-19. i knew that from, affected by covid-19. i knew that from. and _ affected by covid-19. i knew that from. and i _ affected by covid-19. i knew that from, and i think— affected by covid-19. i knew that from, and i think i _ affected by covid-19. i knew that from, and i think i am _ affected by covid-19. i knew that from, and i thinki am right - affected by covid-19. i knew that from, and i thinki am right in i from, and i think i am right in saying. — from, and i think i am right in saying, that of the victims in the nhsr _ saying, that of the victims in the nhsr the — saying, that of the victims in the nhs, the nhs staff, ithink, i may have _ nhs, the nhs staff, ithink, i may have got— nhs, the nhs staff, ithink, i may have got the figure wrong, but i think— have got the figure wrong, but i think it — have got the figure wrong, but i think it is — have got the figure wrong, but i think it is something like 60% in the first— think it is something like 60% in the first year were from ethnic minority— the first year were from ethnic minority background. i may be wrong about _ minority background. i may be wrong about that _ minority background. i may be wrong about that but it is something of that order, it was falling as proportionately on bma staff and we did spot _ proportionately on bma staff and we did spot that very early on. i was very— did spot that very early on. i was very worried about it and i tried to find out _ ver