great thanksgiving. we've got a couple of great hours on tape for you of some of our recent, top interviews and great discussions. we begin with the new inside account of working in the trump white house from former white house aide cassidy hutchinson, whose testimony before the january 6th committee last year revealed what went on within trump's inner circle leading up to and during the attack on the capitol. >> as the president had gotten into the vehicle with bobby, he thought they were going up to the capitol. when bobby had relayed to him, "we're not, you don't have the assets to do it, it's not secure, we're going back to the west wing," the president had very strong, very angry response to that. tony described him as being irate. the president said something to the effect of, "i'm the f-ing president. take me up to the capitol now." to which bobby responded, "sir, we have to go back to the west wing." the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engle grabbed his arm, said, "sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. we're going back to the west wing. we're not going to the capitol." mr. trump then used his free hand to lunge toward bobby engle, and when mr. ranaudo told me the story, he motioned to his clavicles. >> cassidy joins us. her book is "enough," revealing much more about what it was like to be part of the trump administration and new details around january 6th. good to you meet. >> you, too. >> let's talk about july 28th, 2022. you write in this book, you had already given your deposition so you wondered why they couldn't just run the clips of that in the january 6th hearing. you weren't sure you wanted to be the sole witness that day, sitting out there, right up until the moment you went out. you were looking out at the room, at the crowd, and you knew how your life was about to change, and you hesitated. what pushed you out there? why did you think it was important to testify? >> thank you for the kind introduction. there was a physical force, and there was a metaphorical force. first, it took a little bit of force from my attorney. i turned back to my attorney right before the doors opened, and i turned back to my attorney, and i was like, "do i have to do this?" i wanted to dash. i just had this last-minute surge of anxiety. he said, "yes." he pushed me out. you know, i also knew that it was important to be there that day. i knew it was important to have a voice that would be able to speak truths to what actually happened inside the west wing that day. that was a conversation i had with congresswoman liz cheney the night before the live testimony. you know, it was this really profound moment for me when she said that it's important for women and little girls to see that we can have people and women who speak truth to power. i think that we're in this era where we are in this crisis of accountability. to have somebody that's there that can speak to those truths, it was important. i knew it was. i was just a little nervous to do so. >> understandably so. what really strikes you reading through this book, and there's a ton of new stuff in here, as well, is that you were 24 on january 6th? >> i was. >> you're 24, and all these alleged leaders, most of them men throughout the west wing, in the capitol, who had been around washington a long time, as they were cowering, you were running around saying, "we have to do something. this is going to get bad, get ugly." indeed, it did. what was it like for you in those moments, in those days, to look around, and mark meadows, your boss, a guy you knew and respected for a long time, was on the couch saying, the big guy, "trump doesn't want us to do anything." you said, "okay, the chief of staff isn't going to do anything on january 6th. this is on me, a 24-year-old aide." what did it feel like to have the pressure on your shoulders that day? >> you know, i didn't look at it like that at the time because the job itself for a lot of people that work in a white house, and i know you have experience with this, as well. >> i do. we have similar experiences. me not on the grand scale of you. >> apples to oranges. you know, in the job, looking back with hindsight, i see it from a different perspective now, but in the days, i saw it as my job to be the person to get things done, no matter what it took. so in those moments, i saw it as my duty and obligation just to help mark be able to facilitate something so we didn't have a bigger crisis that day. looking back now, you know, i see that there is a lack of leadership and there was a lack of leadership that day. i don't view it as, like, i don't have some hero complex over here that i saved anything on january 6th at all. january 6th was a terrible day. i live with the guilt of being complicit and possibly instrumental in a lot of what led up to january 6th. part of the reason i wrote this book was to shed light on the fact that i didn't just land in the chair on june 28th when i testified. it took a long time to get there. it took a long time to be able to process this and to come to terms with what we did and how it was so severe and the threat it posed on our democracy. >> you write in the book, you were a proud republican, proud conservative, turned onto politics by the 2012 presidential campaign when mitt romney was running. you were proud to get the job in the trump white house. you had respect for donald trump. you worked alongside him. when did that turn? when did that change? when did you feel like, the things we've tolerated for these first three, three and a half years, oh, that's just donald trump being donald trump, and as you write in the book, we're amusing in some ways to the staff. when did that change for you? when did it get more serious and you thought to yourself, "i have to do something here?" there was a shift in me on january 6th that i don't think i was fully cognisant to at the time. but, you know, again, it took a while to get to the point where i was able to fully admit all of those truths myself. i wrestled in my mind with, is it -- was it us? it's the trump world mentality, where i fell into that. there's nothing wrong with it necessarily but it is not how i felt. it really was that year and a half between the administration ending and going to testify and being more forthcoming with the committee that i realized i wasn't going to be able to live with myself because this wasn't the republican party that i felt like i was apart of. this isn't the public service that i had seen myself, that i had envisioned a career being with. so, you know, i think that the points of reflection that i've had helped bring me to these moments, but i'm still working through a lot of those things. >> the moments in the book, and we heard them in the testimony, when mark meadows, his cowardice that day, weakness that day, inability to do anything, page 321, you say, "mark needs to snap out of this. he needs to care." were you surprised by his cowardice on that day? was that the guy you had known? >> when i looked -- in the moment -- i also deliberately tried to write the book alongside my collaborator, a phenomenal human being, who helped pull this story out in ways i never would have been able to do on my own, but i tried to write the book in realtime, how i was thinking in those moments. in those moments, i wasn't necessarily thinking mark was being a coward. i was thinking, "is he shocked? stunned? does he not know what is going on? does he not know what he can do? how can i help him? is he scared?" again, i don't want to speculate about his mindset that day. i don't know exactly how he was feeling that day. i'd want to leave that to him, and i don't want to self-assign adjectives to how he may or may not feel or feel that he was being. i'll leave that to the experts to do. but i was more alarmed and upset. i felt for him because, you know, he was the chief of staff, but he also was sort of instrumental in these moments, too. at the time, how i saw it, chief of staff is only as good as the people who serve him. a president is only as good as the people who serves the president. yeah. >> well, in your book and all the reporting we've had, too, he just -- whatever donald trump needed, that's what he did. >> right. >> it came to a head that day on the 6th. testifying was going to change your life. as you said, women and girls would look up to you, but a lot of people you knew and loved for a long time were going to disown you. you knew exactly what was coming. you knew donald trump and everybody he unleashes was going to go after you, go after your credibility, "i barely knew her. i don't know her name. never seen this woman," donald trump would say. tell me about that decision on a personal level, to sit in the chair and know the minute you started to testify, when you walked back out those doors, your life was different forever. >> i have made peace with that long before i testified. i say made peace. i had accepted, i suppose is a better way of phrasing it. i knew if or when i got to that point, i wasn't going to have those connections anymore. i would hope that i would be able to maintain some of them, but that's straight out of trump's playbook. i know because i was part of it. that's not something i'm proud of. it's something i hold myself accountable to. i think the more we can hold ourselves accountable to the rhetoric and ostracizing people for having different political views. you know, i didn't come forward to hurt anybody. i came forward to speak the truth. i think that's our obligation as public servants. we're doing a disservice to our country if we're serving the principal, the president of the united states, not the principle in which we took our jobs for. >> mika has a question for you. mika? >> cassidy, thank you so much for sharing the process, the emotional and intellectual process that you went through serving this white house and trying to serve the country. back to mark meadows. you all were discussing him around january 6th. i want to go back to chapter 11 and ask what your instincts are. you wrote about him asking you if you would take a bullet for president trump. after you got over your shock at the question, you said to him, "would you?" he said, "i would do anything," mark answered looking over his shoulder at me, "to get him re-elected." how would you characterize what you witnessed in mark meadows' relationship with president trump and maybe others as it pertains to potentially superseding patriotism and love of country? >> looking back with my hindsight now, there was an emphasis of loyalty in the trump administration. at the time, you know, i was aware of that. i saw that my obligation was my loyalty to the country. i felt at the time that mark's obligations and loyalties were to the country, as well. you know, looking back now, i sometimes -- that moment specifically, too, was a moment that stuck out to me when i was writing the book. it's a really profound moment, especially in my reflection, that i'm able to grasp and can see the dissonance between the loyalty to the country and the loyalties that we had to donald trump. there were points i was very loyal to donald trump. i have lost that part of who i was and the promise i had made to maintain the loyalty, my loyalties to the country in the position i had. mark was very loyal to the president, and i don't want -- that's not necessarily a bad thing. it becomes dangerous when you prioritize your loyalties to the president over your loyalties to the country and the job you serve. >> you know, cassidy, i've been a republican for much of my life, like you. known mark meadows for a while. known donald trump for a while. known people like lindsey graham for a while. i've always -- i've just -- i never cease being shocked by my friends that i had, that i would have never guessed would have blindly fallen into line behind a guy who puts himself above the country. but there's been a lot of great surprises, too. i've had people that i would have guessed would have been the first ones to blindly follow sort of an authoritarian type leader who have actually pushed back. i'm just curious, in your experience, when you have made this decision, have there been some pleasant surprises, some people you thought would abandon you who actually have remained steadfast friends and defenders of you? >> there have been, but i think the more enlightening part of this post-trump era part of my life, for me, and this is going to sound hokey, but is how welcoming people have been. you know, i have lived a lot of this past year largely in isolation. part of that being self-induced but part was for security reasons, but i have felt embraced. my eyes have been reopened to the fact that there are good people there. there are good people who genuinely care about public servant. you know, for as terrible as january 6th was, i still have hope. i still have hope that we can come back from this. i still have hope that there are good leaders, but we have to be able to elect those leaders. we have to educate people on the dangers of power and power being in the wrong hands. >> the new book is titled "enough." it is on sale now. cassidy hutchinson, great to meet you. we didn't get to the white clause or the baby oil in new jersey. people are going to have to read the book. >> so good. >> we've only scratched the surface. thank you so much for being here. thank you for your testimony thank you for telling your story. >> thank you for having me. ahead on "morning joe," we talk to an m.i.t. researcher on artificial intelligence about how to protect what is human in an increasingly inhuman world. we'll be right back. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. there's nothing on my skin and that means everything! ♪nothing is everything♪ now's the time. ask your doctor about skyrizi, the #1 dermatologist-prescribed biologic in psoriasis. learn how abbvie could help you save. do you own a lot of bras, but not a single one you really love? 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[limu emu squawks.] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪♪ president biden signed an executive order on artificial intelligence yesterday that wl attempt to put in place new checks and balances on the emerging technology. it requires a.i. companies to share safety test results with the federal government. that includes risks that their systems could aid adversaries in hurting the u.s. joining us now, groundbreaking m.i.t. researcher, dr. joy, the founder of the algorithmic justice league which addresses concerns about facial recognition and biometrics used in policing, education, and health care. her new book is entitled, "unmasking a.i., my mission to protect what is human in a world of machines." what humanity is left, really. thank you for joining us. talk about the unintended consequences of a.i. that you are addressing in this book. >> absolutely. think of an ism, and it is happening with a.i. sexism, racism, ageism, and so forth. whether you're thinking about hiring and you have a.i. tools that systematically take out the resumes, if it has a woman's college listed on it, yet you might get a boost if your name is "jared" or you played lacrosse. >> right. >> think about in health care, where people's insurance is actually getting cut off short so they don't get all of the medical treatment they need. it ends up being higher cost later on. we're seeing ageism in that type of an example. you also have schools adopting systems meant to catch cheating and so far, right? in those situations, we're seeing that black and brown students are more likely to be flagged as cheating, or people with english as a second language, even when they're not. >> mike. >> i mean, extraordinarily interesting and worrisome. how can this same the technology, can the same technology be used to avoid this, to make it a more level, equitable playing field? >> i think it is really important we don't just look at technical systems but socio technical systems. fighting a.i.ith a.i. isn't what we want to be doing. it is bringing in those safety teams in place. at ajl, we have an a.i. harms analyst. people can actually send in their reports of what's going on, sometimes before companies even know there's a problem. i definitely think we don't want to look at it as a purely tech against tech situation. >> first of all, i'm afraid to ask you a question. >> she's amazing. >> the founder of the algorithmic -- >> algorithmic. >> can't even say it. he is so intimidated, can't get the words out. >> i'm shaking before i ask you this question. the question is, why are so many people afraid of a.i.? >> i think part of it is being caught in between fear and fascination. is a.i. going to replace me? with the capabilities of generative a.i. systems, it's not just, can i write the essay for the kid in school? could i write the newscast? you have deep fakes, right? >> right. >> you saw tom hanks. >> this seems like technology gone wild. i don't know how you can put controls or boundaries on it. >> that's what the executive order attempts to do in a comprehensive way. >> do you think it will? >> i think it is up to the implementation. i certainly think it is a good starting ground. i also think what's happening across the pond in the uk this week with the a.i. safety summit is going to look at what global governance of a.i. looks like. >> wow. >> dr. buolamwini, the fear a.i. could be used for misinformation around the elections has raised. is that unfounded? if it is not, how do we make sure we're not seeing misinformation used because of a.i.? >> that fear is absolutely grounded. we've already seen, for example, deep fakes of heads of state saying things they never said. we also -- >> it happened in slovakia and swung the election. >> this is a real concern. you also have synthetic media. with a.i. systems that allow people to create media that you're not sure is real or fake, it creates a bit of a liar's dividend. now, we're questioning everything we see, even