Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning 20240702

great thanksgiving. we've got a couple of great hours on tape for you of some of our recent, top interviews and great discussions. we begin with the new inside account of working in the trump white house from former white house aide cassidy hutchinson, whose testimony before the january 6th committee last year revealed what went on within trump's inner circle leading up to and during the attack on the capitol. >> as the president had gotten into the vehicle with bobby, he thought they were going up to the capitol. when bobby had relayed to him, "we're not, you don't have the assets to do it, it's not secure, we're going back to the west wing," the president had very strong, very angry response to that. tony described him as being irate. the president said something to the effect of, "i'm the f-ing president. take me up to the capitol now." to which bobby responded, "sir, we have to go back to the west wing." the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engle grabbed his arm, said, "sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. we're going back to the west wing. we're not going to the capitol." mr. trump then used his free hand to lunge toward bobby engle, and when mr. ranaudo told me the story, he motioned to his clavicles. >> cassidy joins us. her book is "enough," revealing much more about what it was like to be part of the trump administration and new details around january 6th. good to you meet. >> you, too. >> let's talk about july 28th, 2022. you write in this book, you had already given your deposition so you wondered why they couldn't just run the clips of that in the january 6th hearing. you weren't sure you wanted to be the sole witness that day, sitting out there, right up until the moment you went out. you were looking out at the room, at the crowd, and you knew how your life was about to change, and you hesitated. what pushed you out there? why did you think it was important to testify? >> thank you for the kind introduction. there was a physical force, and there was a metaphorical force. first, it took a little bit of force from my attorney. i turned back to my attorney right before the doors opened, and i turned back to my attorney, and i was like, "do i have to do this?" i wanted to dash. i just had this last-minute surge of anxiety. he said, "yes." he pushed me out. you know, i also knew that it was important to be there that day. i knew it was important to have a voice that would be able to speak truths to what actually happened inside the west wing that day. that was a conversation i had with congresswoman liz cheney the night before the live testimony. you know, it was this really profound moment for me when she said that it's important for women and little girls to see that we can have people and women who speak truth to power. i think that we're in this era where we are in this crisis of accountability. to have somebody that's there that can speak to those truths, it was important. i knew it was. i was just a little nervous to do so. >> understandably so. what really strikes you reading through this book, and there's a ton of new stuff in here, as well, is that you were 24 on january 6th? >> i was. >> you're 24, and all these alleged leaders, most of them men throughout the west wing, in the capitol, who had been around washington a long time, as they were cowering, you were running around saying, "we have to do something. this is going to get bad, get ugly." indeed, it did. what was it like for you in those moments, in those days, to look around, and mark meadows, your boss, a guy you knew and respected for a long time, was on the couch saying, the big guy, "trump doesn't want us to do anything." you said, "okay, the chief of staff isn't going to do anything on january 6th. this is on me, a 24-year-old aide." what did it feel like to have the pressure on your shoulders that day? >> you know, i didn't look at it like that at the time because the job itself for a lot of people that work in a white house, and i know you have experience with this, as well. >> i do. we have similar experiences. me not on the grand scale of you. >> apples to oranges. you know, in the job, looking back with hindsight, i see it from a different perspective now, but in the days, i saw it as my job to be the person to get things done, no matter what it took. so in those moments, i saw it as my duty and obligation just to help mark be able to facilitate something so we didn't have a bigger crisis that day. looking back now, you know, i see that there is a lack of leadership and there was a lack of leadership that day. i don't view it as, like, i don't have some hero complex over here that i saved anything on january 6th at all. january 6th was a terrible day. i live with the guilt of being complicit and possibly instrumental in a lot of what led up to january 6th. part of the reason i wrote this book was to shed light on the fact that i didn't just land in the chair on june 28th when i testified. it took a long time to get there. it took a long time to be able to process this and to come to terms with what we did and how it was so severe and the threat it posed on our democracy. >> you write in the book, you were a proud republican, proud conservative, turned onto politics by the 2012 presidential campaign when mitt romney was running. you were proud to get the job in the trump white house. you had respect for donald trump. you worked alongside him. when did that turn? when did that change? when did you feel like, the things we've tolerated for these first three, three and a half years, oh, that's just donald trump being donald trump, and as you write in the book, we're amusing in some ways to the staff. when did that change for you? when did it get more serious and you thought to yourself, "i have to do something here?" there was a shift in me on january 6th that i don't think i was fully cognisant to at the time. but, you know, again, it took a while to get to the point where i was able to fully admit all of those truths myself. i wrestled in my mind with, is it -- was it us? it's the trump world mentality, where i fell into that. there's nothing wrong with it necessarily but it is not how i felt. it really was that year and a half between the administration ending and going to testify and being more forthcoming with the committee that i realized i wasn't going to be able to live with myself because this wasn't the republican party that i felt like i was apart of. this isn't the public service that i had seen myself, that i had envisioned a career being with. so, you know, i think that the points of reflection that i've had helped bring me to these moments, but i'm still working through a lot of those things. >> the moments in the book, and we heard them in the testimony, when mark meadows, his cowardice that day, weakness that day, inability to do anything, page 321, you say, "mark needs to snap out of this. he needs to care." were you surprised by his cowardice on that day? was that the guy you had known? >> when i looked -- in the moment -- i also deliberately tried to write the book alongside my collaborator, a phenomenal human being, who helped pull this story out in ways i never would have been able to do on my own, but i tried to write the book in realtime, how i was thinking in those moments. in those moments, i wasn't necessarily thinking mark was being a coward. i was thinking, "is he shocked? stunned? does he not know what is going on? does he not know what he can do? how can i help him? is he scared?" again, i don't want to speculate about his mindset that day. i don't know exactly how he was feeling that day. i'd want to leave that to him, and i don't want to self-assign adjectives to how he may or may not feel or feel that he was being. i'll leave that to the experts to do. but i was more alarmed and upset. i felt for him because, you know, he was the chief of staff, but he also was sort of instrumental in these moments, too. at the time, how i saw it, chief of staff is only as good as the people who serve him. a president is only as good as the people who serves the president. yeah. >> well, in your book and all the reporting we've had, too, he just -- whatever donald trump needed, that's what he did. >> right. >> it came to a head that day on the 6th. testifying was going to change your life. as you said, women and girls would look up to you, but a lot of people you knew and loved for a long time were going to disown you. you knew exactly what was coming. you knew donald trump and everybody he unleashes was going to go after you, go after your credibility, "i barely knew her. i don't know her name. never seen this woman," donald trump would say. tell me about that decision on a personal level, to sit in the chair and know the minute you started to testify, when you walked back out those doors, your life was different forever. >> i have made peace with that long before i testified. i say made peace. i had accepted, i suppose is a better way of phrasing it. i knew if or when i got to that point, i wasn't going to have those connections anymore. i would hope that i would be able to maintain some of them, but that's straight out of trump's playbook. i know because i was part of it. that's not something i'm proud of. it's something i hold myself accountable to. i think the more we can hold ourselves accountable to the rhetoric and ostracizing people for having different political views. you know, i didn't come forward to hurt anybody. i came forward to speak the truth. i think that's our obligation as public servants. we're doing a disservice to our country if we're serving the principal, the president of the united states, not the principle in which we took our jobs for. >> mika has a question for you. mika? >> cassidy, thank you so much for sharing the process, the emotional and intellectual process that you went through serving this white house and trying to serve the country. back to mark meadows. you all were discussing him around january 6th. i want to go back to chapter 11 and ask what your instincts are. you wrote about him asking you if you would take a bullet for president trump. after you got over your shock at the question, you said to him, "would you?" he said, "i would do anything," mark answered looking over his shoulder at me, "to get him re-elected." how would you characterize what you witnessed in mark meadows' relationship with president trump and maybe others as it pertains to potentially superseding patriotism and love of country? >> looking back with my hindsight now, there was an emphasis of loyalty in the trump administration. at the time, you know, i was aware of that. i saw that my obligation was my loyalty to the country. i felt at the time that mark's obligations and loyalties were to the country, as well. you know, looking back now, i sometimes -- that moment specifically, too, was a moment that stuck out to me when i was writing the book. it's a really profound moment, especially in my reflection, that i'm able to grasp and can see the dissonance between the loyalty to the country and the loyalties that we had to donald trump. there were points i was very loyal to donald trump. i have lost that part of who i was and the promise i had made to maintain the loyalty, my loyalties to the country in the position i had. mark was very loyal to the president, and i don't want -- that's not necessarily a bad thing. it becomes dangerous when you prioritize your loyalties to the president over your loyalties to the country and the job you serve. >> you know, cassidy, i've been a republican for much of my life, like you. known mark meadows for a while. known donald trump for a while. known people like lindsey graham for a while. i've always -- i've just -- i never cease being shocked by my friends that i had, that i would have never guessed would have blindly fallen into line behind a guy who puts himself above the country. but there's been a lot of great surprises, too. i've had people that i would have guessed would have been the first ones to blindly follow sort of an authoritarian type leader who have actually pushed back. i'm just curious, in your experience, when you have made this decision, have there been some pleasant surprises, some people you thought would abandon you who actually have remained steadfast friends and defenders of you? >> there have been, but i think the more enlightening part of this post-trump era part of my life, for me, and this is going to sound hokey, but is how welcoming people have been. you know, i have lived a lot of this past year largely in isolation. part of that being self-induced but part was for security reasons, but i have felt embraced. my eyes have been reopened to the fact that there are good people there. there are good people who genuinely care about public servant. you know, for as terrible as january 6th was, i still have hope. i still have hope that we can come back from this. i still have hope that there are good leaders, but we have to be able to elect those leaders. we have to educate people on the dangers of power and power being in the wrong hands. >> the new book is titled "enough." it is on sale now. cassidy hutchinson, great to meet you. we didn't get to the white clause or the baby oil in new jersey. people are going to have to read the book. >> so good. >> we've only scratched the surface. thank you so much for being here. thank you for your testimony thank you for telling your story. >> thank you for having me. ahead on "morning joe," we talk to an m.i.t. researcher on artificial intelligence about how to protect what is human in an increasingly inhuman world. we'll be right back. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. there's nothing on my skin and that means everything! ♪nothing is everything♪ now's the time. ask your doctor about skyrizi, the #1 dermatologist-prescribed biologic in psoriasis. learn how abbvie could help you save. do you own a lot of bras, but not a single one you really love? 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[limu emu squawks.] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪♪ president biden signed an executive order on artificial intelligence yesterday that wl attempt to put in place new checks and balances on the emerging technology. it requires a.i. companies to share safety test results with the federal government. that includes risks that their systems could aid adversaries in hurting the u.s. joining us now, groundbreaking m.i.t. researcher, dr. joy, the founder of the algorithmic justice league which addresses concerns about facial recognition and biometrics used in policing, education, and health care. her new book is entitled, "unmasking a.i., my mission to protect what is human in a world of machines." what humanity is left, really. thank you for joining us. talk about the unintended consequences of a.i. that you are addressing in this book. >> absolutely. think of an ism, and it is happening with a.i. sexism, racism, ageism, and so forth. whether you're thinking about hiring and you have a.i. tools that systematically take out the resumes, if it has a woman's college listed on it, yet you might get a boost if your name is "jared" or you played lacrosse. >> right. >> think about in health care, where people's insurance is actually getting cut off short so they don't get all of the medical treatment they need. it ends up being higher cost later on. we're seeing ageism in that type of an example. you also have schools adopting systems meant to catch cheating and so far, right? in those situations, we're seeing that black and brown students are more likely to be flagged as cheating, or people with english as a second language, even when they're not. >> mike. >> i mean, extraordinarily interesting and worrisome. how can this same the technology, can the same technology be used to avoid this, to make it a more level, equitable playing field? >> i think it is really important we don't just look at technical systems but socio technical systems. fighting a.i.ith a.i. isn't what we want to be doing. it is bringing in those safety teams in place. at ajl, we have an a.i. harms analyst. people can actually send in their reports of what's going on, sometimes before companies even know there's a problem. i definitely think we don't want to look at it as a purely tech against tech situation. >> first of all, i'm afraid to ask you a question. >> she's amazing. >> the founder of the algorithmic -- >> algorithmic. >> can't even say it. he is so intimidated, can't get the words out. >> i'm shaking before i ask you this question. the question is, why are so many people afraid of a.i.? >> i think part of it is being caught in between fear and fascination. is a.i. going to replace me? with the capabilities of generative a.i. systems, it's not just, can i write the essay for the kid in school? could i write the newscast? you have deep fakes, right? >> right. >> you saw tom hanks. >> this seems like technology gone wild. i don't know how you can put controls or boundaries on it. >> that's what the executive order attempts to do in a comprehensive way. >> do you think it will? >> i think it is up to the implementation. i certainly think it is a good starting ground. i also think what's happening across the pond in the uk this week with the a.i. safety summit is going to look at what global governance of a.i. looks like. >> wow. >> dr. buolamwini, the fear a.i. could be used for misinformation around the elections has raised. is that unfounded? if it is not, how do we make sure we're not seeing misinformation used because of a.i.? >> that fear is absolutely grounded. we've already seen, for example, deep fakes of heads of state saying things they never said. we also -- >> it happened in slovakia and swung the election. >> this is a real concern. you also have synthetic media. with a.i. systems that allow people to create media that you're not sure is real or fake, it creates a bit of a liar's dividend. now, we're questioning everything we see, even if it is true. >> yes. we need to have you back. the new book is entitled "unmasking a.i., my mission to protect what is human in a world of machines." it's on sale today. dr. joy, thank you so much. it is great to have you on. >> thank you. >> good to meet you. >> thank you for having me. >> congratulations on the book. we pay more for prescription drugs than any major nation on earth. but big pharma has been unfairly charging families. and they've been making record profits. not anymore. as president, joe biden's taken on powerful interests on behalf of the american people. for decades, politicians tried to lower prescription drug costs. but joe biden finally got it done. giving medicare the power to negotiate for lower drug prices, capping insulin at $35 a month, and capping out-of-pocket drug costs for seniors at $2,000 a year. joe biden's lowering costs for millions of americans. and he's paying for it by making the biggest corporations in america finally pay their fair share in taxes. no billionaire should be paying a lower tax rate than a schoolteacher or firefighter. here's my message to all of you out there. your president has your back. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. at bombas, we're obsessed with comfort. quality. movement. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and shop our big holiday sale. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. arnold schwarzenegger, author of the new book, "be useful. seven tools for life." governor, great to have you this morning. >> thank you very much for having me. >> we're going to talk through the book in some detail in a moment, but want to get your take on the day's news and the horrors we're seeing out of israel. as a child of europe, what are your reflections? >> i don't think that it matters if you're a child out of europe, america, born in asia, whatever. i think it is a horrific thing that has happened. unprovoked attack on israel. tremendous violence. so many people have gotten killed. totally unjustifiable action. i think that, you know, i was really sad when i saw this. why does this happen? in the world, there is unnecessary violence because of a lack of communication and a lock of understanding that we can go much further in life working together and working out things together. you know, coming up with solutions rather than violence. i mean, violence, as we've seen in history, has never gotten us anywhere. it is just terrible for israel. you know, i hope there's peace as soon as possible because i would like to see the palestinians and the israeli people live next to each other in peace. and be friends rather than attacking each other. >> joe, the reason i mentioned history of europe and the childhood is because of a long lineage that points from the holocaust back to what we're seeing here today. >> no doubt about it. governor, we were moved, so moved by your visit to auschwitz. you and i were there around the same time. i'm curious your thoughts about the continued stench of anti-semitism, not only across europe and the middle east, but we see it still here in america. >> we have to do everything we can to really talk about this issue. i always feel, because i'm a very positive person, and i always feel like through dialogue and by sitting down with each other, not seeing other side as the villains, i think it is very important that we always stress, especially the day in america, the democrats hate the republicans, republicans hate the democrats, people within the republican party more to the right, they hate them, and there's more people more left in the democratic party that are hated within the party. there's all this hatred and dislike going on. what i'm saying is, basically, you know, i got much further when i was governor by working together with the democrats, by letting them know they're not the enemy. i am a strong believer that if we want to go and make california successful, america successful, we can do this the best possible way, by having democrats and republicans work together. why only use 50% of the brainpower? i want to use 100% of the brainpower. i know that we think differently. i know liberals think differently than i do as a con sec -- conservative. i think the ultraconservatives think differently than i do because i'm more in the center, but we still have to get together and figure out, how do we make their ideas and my ideas and everyone's ideas come together and play like a sports team, where the team plays together? doesn't matter what the party affiliation is, democrats, republicans, independents, all kinds of people on the team, but they all play together. they don't ask each other, what party do you belong to, then start playing together. i think it is ludicrous in politics that people hate each other because they believe differently. so we have to just stress getting together and solving problems together. that's what i'm always emphasizing. >> you have the unique perspective of having served in politics, worked in politics, but really transcending it as the movie star that you are. i'm thinking about that moment after the attack on the capitol in january 6th when you posted the video of you in your office and made that speech with the conan sword, talking about how we needed to be together. this was an attack on who we are. what gives you hope, governor, that we can come back together? because there is so much doom and gloom around our politics. >> well, i tell you, when i think back to the '60s, when i came to america, i mean, you have to understand that there was tremendous craziness going on in this country. i mean, this was the decade where john f. kennedy got assassinated, bobby kennedy assassinated, martin luther king got assassinated, the vietnam war, when hippies started rising up and everyone was getting stoned. there was the violence and protest against the vietnam war. there was the democratic convention in chicago. there was tremendous violence. people were attacked and clubbed, and people died, all this kind of stuff. later on was watergate. there was madness left and right, but america pulled out of that. so this is why i always have hope. i've seen it firsthand, how america does come together. all america is ever looking for is great leadership. we had in those days ronald reagan coming along, and he started pulling the nation together. i was very happy that he was a man i admired very much because he was in the center. he was not, like, the crazies today, you know? he was talking about getting rid of pollution. he started resources in california. president nixon started to create the epa in washington to go and protect the environment. he wanted universal health care. this is what people did when it was not so much party servants but public servants. today, i feel on the left and the right, you see people becoming party servants rather than public servants. we have to always think about, what is best for the country? not what is best for my ideology. i may think one way, but it doesn't mean this is the best for the country. let's just all get together and come up with great, great solutions, because democrats have great solutions, republicans have great solutions. i think if those two work together more often than they're doing now, this country will be much better off. >> i want to talk about your book. "be useful, seven tools for life." first of all, have a clear vision, don't settle. talk about that. >> well, i think it is so important that we have a very clear vision on what we want to do in life. what are we passionate about? even though you were in politics, you were very passionate about talking to the people about policy and about the important issues. that's why you sit there, because you had a vision. you're successful because you have a vision. everyone i talk to that is successful, they say, "i had this dream, i had this vision." you have having to chase, and then work becomes much more fun. rather than what more than 70% of the people in america, you know, who hate their jobs. it's because they're not really having a clear vision on which direction they're going to go. i'm saying, have a clear vision. put the phone down. put the ipad down, the computer down. just think about, what are you really passionate about? i feel if you have that, it'll help you much more to be successful. >> right. >> the other thing is not to listen to the naysayers, which is another important thing i mentioned in the book. so many people say, "this is impossible. you can't ever do that." you know, nelson mandela said, everything is always impossible until someone does it. i heard this my whole life. i came to america, they said, "you'll never be able to go to america." then, "you'll never be a body building champion. go back to austria and become a ski champion or something like this." getting into movies, "it's impossible because of my accent and the body." i had a clear vision of those things. i didn't listen to the naysayers. i worked my butt off to get there. all those principles that i used to be successful not only in body building but in show business, movies, and the governorship and policy, all this stuff, i talk about that. i put the tools out there so other people can use that and also be successful. that's what it is all about, people should be happier about their work and they should be su successful. >> number one, which is don't settle, have that vision and go after something you love, actually goes into your number three issue, which is, i'll quote you, "work your ass off. meaningful pain builds character." you're putting in the work. you're putting in the hours. i heard steve jobs say, "hey, it's a lot easier working around the clock if you're doing something that you love, something you're obsessed with." here, you're saying the same thing. have the vision. have something you really love, and then put in the hours. put in the time. that pain will equal the gain down the road. >> absolutely. so many people today look for the shortcut. i tell them, i said, look, i have been around now for 76 years. i have tackled, you know, the biggest challenges. the way i have been able to be successful is by working my butt off. work, work, work. i mean, when i came to america, in body building, there was no money. i worked on construction sites, and i worked in the gym five hours a day. i went to college and got a degree in business. i was taking acting lessons. i was taking stunt classes. i was working, working, working. for me, in the day, there was 24 hours. six hours i slept, and the other 18 hours i worked my butt off. i want to tell people, i did this with everything, with body building, show business, and then the governorship. it was work, work, work. and having the passion for it. i think this is the key thing, not to look for the shortcut but to go all out and go for it. i think that anyone and everyone can be successful if you use the certain kind of tools that will help you, to make your life more pleasant and more successful. >> i don't want to give away the entire book, so i'll jump to one more, which is the last of the tools i love, break your mirrors. learn more about the face of your neighbor and less about your own. where did that come from? what does it mean to you? >> it's just that i felt always very strongly when i came to america that i was received with open arms. everyone helped me. i got a free gym membership. i got to come to america for free. i was, like, giving bodybuilders dishes, silverware, a black and white tv when i moved to america, all these kinds of things. there was tremendous generosity, so i wanted to give back. i started with the special olympics and then the head of physical fitness and sports, promoting health and fitness amongst the kids in the schools. later on, i got involved with after-school programs. later on, becoming governor. but my father-in-law, sergeant shriver, who started the peace corps, the job corps, and aid to the poor, all this, he always talked about that. he had a speech at the university, yale, where he said to the students at the commencement speech, "tear down the mirror that looks at yourself, tear it down and you'll be able to see the millions and millions of people who need your help." >> he was a very wise man, and you've lived his advice. the book is "be useful, seven tools for life." arnold schwarzenegger, congratulations on the book. >> thank you for having me. up next, huey lewis on thef own hit songs. we'll be right back. ight back. l rate from 20% to 80%. so when you support st. jude, you're helping more kids grow up to be whatever they want to be. like this kid, who's a high school track star. and this kid, who was elected to state office. and this kid, who has three kids. marlo thomas: give thanks for the healthy kids in your life, and give a gift that could last a lifetime. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and the majority of people experienced long-lasting remission at one year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ♪ now's the time to ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. sleep more deeply. and wake up rejuvenated. with purple's new mattresses - fall asleep 20% faster. have less aches and pains and sleep uninterrupted. right now save up to $900 dollars off mattress sets during purple's black friday sale. visit purple.com or a store near you today. ♪♪ ♪ play that music the modern music ♪ ♪ with a lot of style still that same old rhythm ♪ ♪ that really really drives them wild ♪ ♪ they say the heart of rock 'n' roll is beating ♪ ♪ from what i've seen i believe them ♪ ♪ the other may be barely breathing but the heart of rock 'n' roll heart of rock 'n' roll is beating ♪ "the heart of rock 'n' roll" was one of a slew of top ten singles released by huey lewis and the news in the '80s and early '90s. the band cranked out hits like "the power of love," "hip to the square," and "i want a new drug." if you want to experience these classics in a whole new way, we have an exciting announcement for you. to help us with the announcement, we have the band's legendary front man, huey lewis himself with us this morning. it's great to have you. >> thanks. >> tell us, what's the big announcement? >> well, we have a musical that we've been working on almost a decade now," the heart of rock 'n' roll." we have a theater, and we're going to debut next spring in april. >> amazing. >> on broadway. >> oh, my gosh. >> sounds great. >> what theater? >> james earl jones theater. we're going to start previews end of march and open late april. >> fabulous. >> that's great. congratulations, amazing. "the heart of rock'n' roll" is familiar, but tell us about the story like of the show. >> it's an original story line, not about me or my life, but all of the music is huey lewis and the news music. it's been re-imagined by our musical director who is brilliant. each song has been given a completely different setting than we did. the whole thing is really -- it's been a wonderful experience, you know? working with all these talented people. >> huey, what led you to want to do this as a musical? why do this and on broadway? >> you know, i lost my hearing about eight years ago. i lost my right ear 35 years ago. they don't really know much about the disease. i lost the left ear eight years ago. i can't perform. it is all cacophony for me. i have hearing aids from the starky hearing institute. >> i will second that thank you to them. >> i get along. >> yeah. >> but this was an idea we had all along, and we just started working on it ten years ago. it was actually my neighbor's son-in-law's idea to do this. you know, we were neighbors from the same small town. ten years later, here we are. >> that's awesome. >> that's great. >> i want to -- >> how did you decide which songs to go in? you have such an exhaustive catalog. what was that process like? >> that's a very good question. you know, the songs need to mean something in the show. our producer, tyler, whose idea this was, is a big, big fan and knew all our music. in fact, he knows my music better than me. he's the one who sort of laid the groundwork for that. of course, we had to amend the songs a little bit to make sure that they push the story forward. we want to maintain the integrity of the songs, so it was a tough process. it's all good now. >> huey, you're such a positive person. i want to understand more about what it's like to live with hearing loss. >> right. >> you can see i'm speaking clearly. also, like joe, you have tinnitus, the ringing. how do you cope? does working on this project help or hurt? >> yeah, well, as best you can is the answer. >> right. >> you cannot hear music? >> i can't hear pitch. even one note is out of tune with itself if that's understandable. almost like it is harmonized. >> mm-hmm. >> you have to remind yourself every day, there's a lot of people worse off. >> right. >> i mean, i get by. you need to stay busy and creative, and that's what this musical is all about. >> that's amazing. >> i've always wondered, can you even begin to comprehend the joy that you've brought to people's lives? the reason i ask that is, you know, we all grow up and rock 'n' roll is rock 'n' roll. you're like, oh, that's a cute 3-minute song. the stones, the beatles, whatever. i'm sure when they came out, nobody thought this far into the future, we'd all be listening. your songs, i listen to your songs. me, willie, his wife go back to a time and a place. >> yes. >> i remember a roll"rolling st interview. you're talking about hitting a 7 iron 175. i mean, it brings everything back to me. your songs make people happy. can you even kind of begin to grasp how much that means to people? >> first of all, you're very sweet to say that. >> it's true. >> well, thank you. you know, it's one of the things that keeps you going. i mean, i get notes and stuff from people and fans. you know, i'm not a kind of nostalgic guy. i'm always looking forward. >> right. >> but it is very, very gratifying to know that you've, you know, touched people's lives. >> you still are. >> and made a difference. >> personally, i came of age right around when sports came out, mtv, everything converged. you were watching the clip when we you came in here and said, request it boy, it feels like a lifetime ago." how does it feel to watch the videos and, to joe's point, to know the life and legacy and endurance they have? >> like listening to our old records. we produced the old records. we did all our own videos. we wanted to make those decisions. when i watch that stuff, i keep thinking of things we should have done. [ laughter ] i want to remix all the time. >> well, you can do it on stage in broadway. you can see -- >> "i want a new drug" mix. >> previews for "the heart of rock 'n' roll" scheduled march 29th of next year at the james earl jones theater in new york city. huey lewis, thanks so much. great to see you. thank you for announcing that here. we'll be right back with more "morning joe" on this thanksgiving morning. ♪ today, my friend you did it, you did it, you did it... ♪ centrum silver is now clinically shown to support cognitive health in older adults. it's one more step towards taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. hi, i'm sally and i lost 52 pounds with golo in a year and a half. ♪ youuu did it! ♪ i struggled with my weight for a long time due to my thyroid issues but since being on the golo plan and taking release, the weight has not come back. 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serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ♪ now's the time to ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. every important victory this country has ever won with americans struggling together has made us stronger as a nation. s a nation welcome back to another hour of "morning joe" on this thanksgiving morning. we continue with more of the falls's best interviews and discussions. with begin this hour with veteran reporter jonathan karl and his book, taking us inside what donald trump has done to the republican pango win with ey single facet. we're going to win so much, you may even get tired of winning. you'll say, please, please, it's too much winning. we can't take it anymore. mr. president, it's too much. i'll say, "no, it isn't!" we have to keep winning. we have to win more. we're going to win more. >> that's donald trump in april of 2016 promising republicans they would get tired of all the winning. joining us now is "new york times" best selling author and abc news chief international correspondent jonathan karl. uses that quote for the title of his new book, "tired of winning: donald trump and the end of the grand old party." great to have you. we like stealing you for a day or two. >> it's great to be right here. >> you're at the table. >> yeah. >> congrats on the book. everybody is talking about this. let's go back to the quote in april of 2016, which is sort of launching us into this book, and what that winning has looked like in the seven years or so since. >> yeah, i mean, tired of winning, donald trump has certainly won. he won the presidency. he's won almost total control over the republican party, but he has left wreckage in his wake. obviously, there are the election losses for republicans, midterms, special elections, run-offs. it's been almost every time voters have gone to the polls since 2016, republicans have either lost or not met expectations. more to the point is the wreckage he has left in his wake as he has gone about his winning. the people that opposed him have seen their careers destroyed, especially republicans. the people close to him, some wound up in prison, disgraced, left politics entirely, broke with lawyers' fees. everybody who he comes in contact with seems to be the worse for it. throughout the process, he has managed, and you have to give him credit to a degree, it's amazing that after all that, he is where he is now, which is the presumptive republican nominee for president. >> how do you explain, john, this is a central question now, the loyaltyengendered what you just said, despite anyone who comes into contact with him, whether it is someone who heeded his calls and are now in jail, or rudy giuliani who hitched himself to him and is now bankrupt, and, yet, we were talking about it this morning, this vermin comment over the weekend, you cannot get a republican on the record anyway to criticize donald trump. how do you explain it? >> they've made a calculation. i talk in the book about really two, i think, very critical moments where the republican party faced a choice. they took the path of trump. the first, most famously, of course, is when kevin mccarthy went to mar-a-lago eight days after trump left in disgrace. we know about that. the other one is when ronna mcdaniel faced a threat from donald trump on january 20th of 2021. i mean, the day he leaves office, "i'm leaving the party. i'm going to start my own party." mcdaniel first begs him not to go, "you're going to hurt the people who helped you the most. you won't win. we won't win. we'll all lose." he's, "doesn't matter, you deserve to lose because you didn't fight hard enough for me. if you had, i'd still be president." then they threaten him, threaten, you know, he's going to have legal fees, he's going to lose his ability to raise money, and he backs down. what would happen if kevin mccarthy had said, "you know what? he's done. we're going in an entirely different direction"? what if ronna mcdaniel said, "start your own party"? he was at a low point. they felt if he went, he'd take his voters with him. even if it was not the majority of the republican party, which at that point maybe it wasn't, that they would not win the next election, which was the midterms. kevin mccarthy wanted to be speaker, and he became speaker. mcdaniel wanted to be the chair. >> now, we're about a year from the next election. donald trump stands a real chance of winning, and there's been reporting about what a second trump term would look like. you have that in your book, as well, very, very timely. give us a sense as to what they plan to do and how they almost telegraphed it by the site of their first campaign rally this time around in waco, texas. >> look, he had his first rally in waco, which -- and almost exactly on the 30th anniversary of the siege of the branch davidian compound, the cult that had a showdown with the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms, the marshals, ended in the inferno that killed 50 people. one of the real kind of tragedies in recent american history. it became a rallying cry for the militia movement. i wrote a book about these right-wing militias after one of the militia members, timothy mcveigh, bombed oklahoma city, the deadliest terrorist attack in america at the time, killing 168 people in oklahoma city. he goes to waco, texas, to hold the first rally. i called bannon, steve bannon, who is far more -- i think people are figuring out bannon, once again, is an incredibly influential force on trump right now. i think maybe the intellectual heart for trump, if there is one. it's bannon no. he says, "we're the trump da davidians." it is embracing the idea, we'll stand up against federal power. the federal government is really coming out to get us. the deep state -- which, by the way, they often mean republicans when they talk about that. i think that set the tone for what this campaign will be, which is a campaign of retribution. >> john, there's so much in this book that it'd require us to read it chapter by chapter on air to really get to everything that you have through your reporting and writing. my question to you is, there is an anecdote in the book i'd like you to explain, and it has to do with trump's lawyers coming to see jack smith and justice. >> yeah. >> after explaining that anecdote to the audience, based upon your reporting and your relationship with people around trump, as well as trump himself, do you think, finally, at the end of the day, he is frightened? >> i think the short answer to that is yes. but let me first get to the anecdote. so as jack smith has already indicted trump for the documents, there are lots of speculation that an indictment on january 6th is coming. the trump team asks for a meeting with jack smith. they go down. there's a lot of secrecy surrounding the meeting. they come in early in the morning, come down to washington. it's john lauro, todd blanche. they meet with jack smith and two of his prosecutors. the meeting is -- i mean, i had some insight into it, blow by blow of what happened in the meeting. jack smith comes in. they meet in the conference room. he offers them water. invites them to sit down, and then he doesn't say anything. for the next 60 minutes, john lauro gives this presentation as to why donald trump should not be prosecuted on charges related to january 6th. he goes into the first amendment argument. he says trump truly believed that he had won the election and was trying in good faith to do something about it. he goes through all the arguments that, you know, they would later make, actually in court briefings. jack smith takes notes. doesn't ask a single question and bids them farewell after the hour. what's interesting about the anecdote, by the way, is a few hours later, jack smith does slam down an indictment, but it is a superseing indictment on the documents that gets into the stuff in the tunnels, the obstruction, the video tapes in mar-a-lago. it gives no hint that that's coming. the january 6th indictment comes a little over a week later, and it anticipates all the arguments they'd just given him. it was an interesting way to operate. >> jonathan, a lot of reporting has born out in the past about what trump would do in another term and how dangerous his presidency could be, specifically to certain people and groups. but you have an anecdote, a story in your book that also reflects on what a second trump presidency would portend. tell us about johnny mcentee. >> i think he is a central player to understand 2020 and what happened to donald trump, and an even more central player in deciding what is coming next. he was the body guy who carried his bags. he was one of the very first employees of the trump campaign in 2016, starting in 2015. worked as a junior person on the news desk at fox news. quit the job to volunteer for trump. he ends up being the guy that carries his bags everywhere. he keeps the job in the white house, eventually fired for issues arranging out of his fbi background check, fired by john kelly, but he's back in 2020. he's given the job of the head of the national personnel office, maybe the most important hr department in the government, responsible for the hiring and firing of 4,000 plus federal political appointees. he goes about rooting out disloyalists. first of all, he hires a bunch of his friends to be in the office, all kids in their early 20s. mcentee himself was 29 at the time. they go about interrogating cabinet secretaries, deputy cabinet secretaries, senior officials throughout the federal government, trying to test for who is truly loyal, totally loyal to donald trump. mcentee, after trump lost in 2020, becomes incredibly powerful, as he orchestrates the decapitation of the political leadership at the pentagon. esper is fired. three other top civilian leaders in the pentagon are fired. mcentee, i describe a scene, part of which had been out there, but the details of which are all new, about how he orchestrated this executive order, quote, executive order, called for the complete withdrawal of troops immediately from afghanistan, but january 15th, the withdrawal of troops from germany, the withdrawal of troops from the middle east, and then they added africa. he arranged to have it done completely outside the national security council. when this order hit the pentagon, you know, nobody knows what to do with it. it requires this massive movement of troops and a lame duck president who is only obsessed with trying to overturn an election. anyway, this was all mcentee. i describe a scene, the pentagon leadership comes to the white house. robert o'brien, the national security adviser didn't know about it. the white house counsel didn't know about it. mcentee had done it all himself. the point of this is mcentee, or somebody like him, will be there not at the end of a trump presidency but at the beginning of a trump presidency, ensuring complete and total loyalty to donald trump at the very beginning. no more mattis smattises, john pat cipollones, people to stand up to trump. >> by the way, the national security adviser next time won't be robert o'brien. it'll be mike flynn -- >> or kash patel, maybe ric grenell. we can have a good list. >> all those names are viable, and they'd sign off on it. that's a preview of what may be coming next. >> they'd say, "yes, boss." >> that's right. let's talk -- you get into the book, too, about some of these, a few, but some profiles in courage in the republican party. liz cheney, of course, leaps to mind first. she sacrificed her political career to stand up and say, "no, actually, the 2020 election did go to joe biden, and everything we're doing to try to overturn it is un-american. it violates the constitution." loses her job. adam kinzinger leaves congress. who is left in the grand old party, as you put it? who are the profiles in courage? or is it gone, as we've all known it? >> first, there were some surprising profiles in courage that we saw at the end with trump. i think it's worth noting that if you looked at the january 6th hearings, for instance, almost all of the witnesses were republicans. they testified truthfully and honestly about what trump did, about what really happened in the election. there was the entire leadership of the justice department, names that are not household names, that all threatened to resign on january 2nd of 2021, when trump was talking about, you know, appointing a new attorney general who would carry out his orders. bill barr stood up for him. i mean, mike pence had that incredibly important moment, maybe the only moment he ever stood up to trump in the white house, but might have saved the republic. i mean, we don't know what would have happened if he'd tried to do what trump said. yeah, they're largely gone. we conclude in the book, romney, this is something that's an interesting piece of trump trivia, there is in the national archives, in a box, one of the 15 boxes that were sent back, there is an official white house record in the archives that can be released in the same amount of years they unseal this stuff. it's a napkin that says, in trump's sharpie, he is a total loser. it's an air force one napkin. you know, he's right, romney was a loser, he lost in 2012. but unlike donald trump, he graciously acknowledged that loss and move on and became a profile of courage in the senate, voting twice to evict trump, indictment trials, standing up to the, you know, to his party. mitt romney is a total loser is maybe the most fitting piece of white house records in the trump presidency. >> briefly, lastly, so many republicans have bowed down to him. few have stood up to him, including those vying against him to be their nominee. up until recently, most republicans, outside of chris christie, weren't doing anything at all. how do you view trump's chances of emerging next year undented? >> i recently looked back at this, and you may have remembered this more clearly than i do, but the polls a year ago were really stark. desantis was beating trump soundly. >> yeah. >> there was a "wall street journal" poll in the middle of december of last year with desantis well over 50%. trump in the 30s. i mean, there was a real sense that he was not going to make this. but desantis and others made the calculation, again, that if we were going to beat him, they'd also need his supporters. it was an utter failure. i mean, desantis is now, you know, maybe third. i don't think it is over. i think trump can still -- one of the issues here is people have not been focused on what he is doing right now, what he is thinking about, what he is preparing to do in a second trump presidency. there has been endless coverage of the criminal cases for sure, but there hasn't been coverage of what trump has been doing and saying, both in public and in private. that's why i wrote this book. >> we are seeing the alarm bells go off now thanks, in part, to your book. titled, "tired of winning, donald trump and the end of the grand old party," it is out today. abc news chief washington correspondent, new york city -- new york times best selling author, jonathan karl. >> great to be here. 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yes - your ucard is all you need. huh - that's easy! can it help keep my smile looking good? yep! use your ucard at the dentist. say cheese! get access to what matters with the ucard only from unitedhealthcare. they respond to trump and say, my wages were higher, we weren't at wars all over the place, maybe the guy is a jerk, he is a badass and the world fears him. >> all he does is complain about people. >> he complains about things. >> that's where we're looking. >> take on the administrative state. >> he's not talking about helping people's lives. he's talking about going after the people mean to him. he says, oh, i'm going to have the doj target bill barr because he was mean to me. i'll have the doj target john kelly because he turned on me. i'll have the doj target jack smith because -- >> that's not true. >> that's all he talks about. he doesn't talk about helping people. >> that's not true. >> that's not true. >> you know, a maga lawyer on your podcast, mike davis, here's what he suggested were the top priorities for the attorney general, one, fire the deep state executive branch, indict the biden family, deport 10 million people, kids in cages, glorious, four, detain people at gitmo, five, pardon every january 6th defendant. what do you think? five-step plan. >> fantastic. we should do it. we'll start the largest deportation effort in history. all 10 million must leave. >> part of an exchange with longtime adviser steve bannon from the final episode of "the circus." joining us now, one of the now former co-hosts of "the circus," political strategist mark mckinnon. plus, msnbc contributor mike barnicle. and special correspondent at "vanity fair," host of "the fast politics podcast," molly jong-fast. >> mark mckinnon, it used to be a bob and weave, where donald trump would say something extreme and then back off and go, "oh, no, no, i don't mean that. i don't mean that at all." now, they're all just coming straight. it used to be bannon would say something crazy, and trump and his people would say, "no, that's not the case." no, they're aligned now. bannon said seven years ago, "i'm a lennonist. i want to tear down the state." well, trump is with him now. trump is a lennonist and wants to tear down the state. they say they want to arrest the entire biden family. they want to arrest people. even his former lawyers that turned on him. i mean, this is just full on fascism, and they're proud of it. >> that's what's remarkable, joe. molly and i were talking about it. there's no secret to the secret plan. believe them when they tell you what they're going to do. i mean, bannon went on to say this movement is moving beyond trump. trump, in his view, is a moderate. you know, they're talk about the greatest deportation in history. it's pretty chilling. as you said, the remarkable thing about it is they're not hiding the ball on this. everybody should know, team democracy, it's time to suit up. >> yeah. willie, it is, again, they're admitting the quiet part out loud. now, trump has it to where he is lifting words and phrases from hitler's speeches. >> yeah, the vermin term. remember, he said, "i am your retribution" to his supporters. now not saying it in a vague way, molly, but specific plans from people who presumably would be close advisors in the administration, about how they'd go out carrying out that retribution. you heard steve bannon, take it for what it is worth, he is a podcaster probably going to jail soon. >> negative on podcasters? >> no, no. >> yeah. >> obviously influential in the maga movement. the fact he is saying out loud, we should pardon all the people who attacked the capitol, who beat up cops on january 6th. pardon them. trump said that, too, by the way. >> it's interesting. republicans and trumpists have these ideas that are not popular with the general electorate, right? they're not. we see this again and again. we saw it in the 2023 off-year election. these ideas are not popular. ballot initiatives by democrats overperform. we're seeing, you know -- you saw santorum say democrats get to run on sexy ideas like legalizing marijuana and abortion. okay, but they're popular. that's what they are, popular. meanwhile, on the trump side, you have republicans running on trump's retribution, deporting people, deporting people in gitmo. these are not popular ideas. >> isn't one of the larger questions that the country confronts or has to confront is when will america stop sleepwalking towards the end of democracy? >> right. >> i mean, all of us here at this table -- >> that's a good question. >> -- recall the summer of 2015 when donald trump maligned john mccain, maligned his service, maligned his career. everybody i know said, well, that's it for trump. >> right. >> anybody who says that about john mccain, that's it for trump. well, it wasn't and it isn't up until this moment in time. >> yeah. >> he can be in claremont, new hampshire, over the weekend, on veterans day, calling americans vermin. >> yeah. >> on veterans day, maligning democracy, outlining exactly what he intends to do. he says the truth out loud, his own truth. >> believe him. >> yeah. >> why, why do we sit here? why does "the new york times" and other major publications not start confronting this? you're right, it's time to suit up, but it is well past halftime. >> yeah. >> we're in the fourth quarter here. >> exactly right. time to get on the field. what's remarkable is, we know from 2015 how that story ends. we know how this one could end. so we've gotten the preview. let's go. >> molly, it seems to me, you're right, these are not broadly popular ideas but they are popular with his base. independent swing voters seem to be unhappy with both choices. let's set motivations aside for a moment. what can democrats do to turn out their base? we've seen reporting and polls in recent weeks that some of the usual democratic voters aren't that enthusiastic about this ticket. >> right. what is interesting about these polls, and, again, i think throw the polls out, but in these polls, there is good news for the generic dem, right? that number does really well. that's saying that the democratic brand is actually not in bad shape, right? despite the fact that there's a lot of, you know, pundits saying the democratic brand is tarnished. it's not. the democratic brand is the only thing that's come out of this that's doing well, and we're seeing it again and again in the special elections. democrats have popular ideas. they're not too crazy. you know, republicans went too far, right? trumpists went too far. you know, mainstream voters don't like the abortion stuff. they don't like feeling the government is in their bedroom. they don't like it. it's too much. and so especially the trans panic, you know, that also did not work for republicans. you know, the book bans. [ laughter ] the mainstream voters just want normal. coming up on "morning joe," our conversation with one of the most powerful and influential sports agents whose client list includes lebron james. his memoir details his journey from the streets to the c-suite. he tells us his remarkable story next. we'll be right back. 'll be righ. ♪ today, my friend you did it, you did it, you did it... ♪ centrum silver is now clinically shown to support cognitive health in older adults. it's one more step towards taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. do you own a lot of bras, but not a single one you really love? it's time you got into a wireless bra from knix. the ultimate in comfort and support, in sizes up to a g-cup. visit knix.com to find a wireless bra you'll love. the serrano name has always been something we're proud of. it's why we show it off on our low riders. and why we wear our name on our chains. 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what'd you learn from those days that we can see today in the business you run? >> the early years were, i would imagine like most children that grew up like me, it was tough. you know, i think there's an umbilical cord for a reason when you're born, right? the connectivity with your mother. for me not to have that was tough. you know, those nights when you're trying to wake up because you're feeling sick or something, i really didn't have that loving comfort given to me. but, on the other side, i had a dad who was present and was a great influence for me. there were roller coasters. then, when my mom was present, she just -- it was this unbelievable light shined, but it came and went. >> we talked about the moment you met lebron at the airport in akron. >> yes. >> you were hustling selling jerseys at that point. in fact, you were wearing a warren moon throwback jerseys from houston oilers. take us back to the pivotal moment. it was a chance encounter with lebron, and it's a great lesson, i think, to people. you took your shot with lebron. >> yeah. you know what, at that time, there wasn't a shot to take, right? i was traveling. i was actually meeting a guy named andy hinman, who had a store, distant replays, in atlanta. through the travel, i just so happened to go to the airport. probably my 15th time going to atlanta at this point. this young man, amongst other young men, are at my gate. they approached me about my jersey. i had no clue it was going to be the lebron james he is today. >> he was still in high school at the time. >> he was not on the cover of "sports illustrated" yet, wasn't there. i was also just being nice because i like to dress. my dad loved to dress. i was just being, you know -- i was giving them information. they asked me a question, and i was taking the time to say, this is where you go. if you need any help, drop my name, and the guy will take care of you if i'm not there. that encounter turned into a friendship, turned into a relationship, to a business relationship. more importantly, it turned into an unbreakable bond that we have as brothers. >> rich, your dad dies when you're still a teenager. >> 19, yes. >> and you go back to the street. >> yes. >> you're dealing on the street. >> yes. >> i mean, you're out there. how did the street not beat you? >> you know, it's one thing to be young and black, and when you have an entrepreneurial spirit and young and black, there's not many options. there's not much opportunity there. there's not many people to lean on to say, "hey, can you show me how to do a business plan? can you give me loan?" we see a lot of successful people. if you look how they started, their fathers gave them a loan or someone supported them. when you're young and black in america, it's tough, right? also, i knew right from wrong. but when you're trying to survive, i was just trying to find the right within doing wrong. >> you know, rich, i don't endorse a lot of books, but i think this book is very important because you're so candid and because you didn't come from the elite and go over. you came from the rough and tumble, and you talk about it. but the two things i want you to address that i most respect about you is, one, you chose the business lane and stayed there. james brown was like a father to me, used to tell me most blacks get into show. i'm in show business. secondly, you, lebron, your clients, support x movements that i've been involved in all my life, but you don't try to lead it. you stay in your lane, but you don't forget where you come from. talk about the discipline of not getting seduced out of what you're about and, at the same time, being able to support people in what they're doing. >> yeah, i think anytime -- anybody that's truly successful, it comes with a focus, right? an earned focus. for me, i was just trying to find a place when lebron first gave me an opportunity. i had no title. i had no position. i didn't let it discourage me. we went from a two-lane highway to a three-lane highway, now a six-lane highway. i found my lane, and i stayed there, right? within that lane, i developed my own off-ramp and other roads to different verticals and different -- in diversifying my portfolio. it is important to stay true to who you are, but, also, it is important to understand what's important. just the other day, i'm leaving my beautiful office in beverly hills. i get a call, my 17-year-old cousin gets killed. right? now, he gets killed. he's 17. i buried his father in 2009. he was 20. now, my mother's second youngest brother, beautiful guy, my uncle kevin, beautiful, beautiful guy, but he has to bury his grandson this weekend, and he buried his son, one of his sons prior to now. he's outlived his son and his grandson. when you think about it, and i'm sitting here to go on this press run about my book, and this is what it's about. these kids don't get the opportunity to understand that there is clarity in life, and so i talk about that in my book, as well. that's extremely important. >> i'm so sorry about your cousin. that's terrible news. >> thank you. >> it's sort of why this book is important. >> very important. >> it's why the story is important, it is something to look to and say, oh, rich did it. there's a way. we can do it. >> they can see me and touch me and feel me. i go back to my community. when you watch the "60 minute" special, i'm in my community. i'm not doing that from los angeles. >> right. >> i'm in cleveland. >> i want to ask you quickly, could talk to you for five hours about this book, but want to ask quickly about the way you've changed how athletes almost view themselves, as being empowered. the numbers are huge. the contracts you have negotiated. also, players in the nba or the nfl, around sports saying, no, wait, actually, i'm holding the cards here. >> yes. >> i can get what i want out of this situation rather than just being pawns between these teams moving around. how have you helped to instill that mentality into your clients? >> through education. i think oftentimes, you look at talent and they're looking at as a transaction. i didn't lead with that. i lead with educating the person that happens to be a good basketball player. not a good basketball player first. they also give me -- the guys i represent, i'm only representing them because they allow me to. all of them. it's not just lebron. it's several, right? i appreciate that. they disrupt the industry just as much as i did because there was a time where if you were a top talent, your representation didn't look like me. i want kids to understand, i'm stepping out there in the forefront and telling my story, i'm speaking up, not for me, for us, for them to have a different example. to understand, you don't just have to be the talent. i was not the best player on my team. i learned to understand the ecosystem of sport. here i am today. >> it's an amazing story. we should point out, lebron james met you because you had a jersey on, but the reason he went into business with you is because you're so damn smart. he saw you were going to take him, perhaps, to where he is today. the memoir is titled "lucky me, a memoir of changing the odds," clutch sports group founder, ceo rich paul, thank you for joining us. >> thank you for having me. next on "morning joe," after john stamos joins us to discuss his new memoir, a revealing portrait of his career in hollywood and his journey to sobriety. we're back with more "morning joe" after a short break. i've struggled with generalized myasthenia gravis. but the picture started changing when i started on vyvgart. vyvgart is for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are anti-achr antibody positive. in a clinical trial, vyvgart significantly improved most participants' ability to do daily activities when added to their current gmg treatment. most participants taking vyvgart also had less muscle weakness. and your vyvgart treatment schedule is designed just for you. in a clinical study, the most common side effects included urinary and respiratory tract infections, and headache. vyvgart may increase the risk of infection. tell your doctor if you have a history of infections or symptoms of an infection. vyvgart can cause allergic reactions. available as vyvgart for iv infusion and now as vyvgart hytrulo for subcutaneous injection. additional side effects for vyvgart hytrulo may include injection site reactions. talk to your neurologist about vyvgart. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and the majority of people experienced long-lasting remission at one year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ♪ now's the time to ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. it's the way my whole stinking life has been, my whole life. every time i get close to something, it gets yanked away. i can't take it no more. i can't face it no more, all right? >> you have to. >> why? give me one reason why. >> the character blackie, a street urchin with a street of gold, was the first gig actor john stamos landed in 1982 on the hit soap, general hospital. i watched it in high school, mike, skipping class. oh, yeah, that's how old i am. five years later, he'd take on the iconic role of uncle jesse in the sitcom "full house" where he'd meet his best friend, bob saget. his friendship with saget, the other legends he met along the way, and his journey to sobriety, all a part of his new memoir entitled, "if you would have told me." it's a good title. >> thank you. >> it's a great book. i'm reading sections of it, and i have a lot of thoughts, stamos. >> i'm sure you do. don't touch my hair. last time, she touched my hair. finally, i'm working with real journalists. i get in there, and they start playing with my hair. >> messed it up, i know. >> mike, big fan, rev, you, too. >> who touched your hair? >> it's her. touch joe's, he has great hair. >> he has great hair. i fix it for him. >> yes. >> it's at home, my hair. >> is it? >> mike. you really put it out here. >> i didn't want to. >> i know. tell me about why you did. because, i mean, there's some really humorous parts of this book, great stories, but there's a lot of heartbreak. a lot of mental anguish. and some bad decisions. >> couple of those. >> and you do put it out there. why? >> i started out to write a hero story. oh, i never thought i'd write a book. i can't spell. it's not my thing. i was asking my friends, how do you write a book? i don't know. i became a father at 55. if you would have told me that, it is something i always wanted, and my friend bob died. came again and i said, okay, let me try. i was trying to find an angle. my mom wrote me beautiful notes. do you write to your kids? >> mm-hmm. >> i cherish them. i laid them out and said, i get it. then i started to write, i did this and i did that. i said, i have to write a human story or what's the point? >> right. >> i discovered my story along the way. i said, i don't have a book. what have i done? but i looked for the human side first, like you said, like some of these things i've done. hopefully people will, you know, look at it and not make the sake mistakes, but it's been a -- you guys have boy, it's been a whole thing. >> a lot, yeah. >> i thought about when i was writing these things, not that it's going to get click bait, but when it was coming out the last few days, it's hard. it's heartbreaking, some of the stuff, you know? >> gut-wrenching. >> yes. >> flirting with death, drunk driving, rehab. you were told to put a list of grievances down on the table, everything that bothered you. then what happened? >> they said, what part did you have to play in this? at that moment, i said without truth, there's just paralysis, and it felt so good to get all of it out really. there's a lot of fun stuff and obviously there's a lot of -- >> i don't know if you consider trying to get the olsen twins fired fun, but -- >> clickbait. i thought this was a news show. they made a big story about this, right? the girls were screaming through every scene. they were screaming through every scene and i said, let's find some other kids. it was, like, an hour or something, but i love those girls and they really came -- they visited us when bob died. they came to his funeral and said all the things -- we weren't really in contact with them much and they said, we loved our childhood. we love you. we were to happy to be on that show, so it was nice. >> you said to mika a couple of minutes ago, she talked about you writing the book and you said you didn't want to. >> right. >> you ended up obviously doing it, and it's a roller coaster to of a ride. >> yes, it is. >> it's deeply emotional, deeply personal. how many times -- first of all did you write with a pen and pencil? >> i wrote it on the computer. >> how many times during the course of putting this together did you stop and say to yourself, oh my god, i can't believe i did that. that was so bad. >> a lot. >> and you put it in still. >> i said, i can't say this. my dad -- i came from a very, you know, sort of conservative orange county family which is like by disneyland. he was, like, don't talk about politics and religion, and he's passed away, so sorry, dad. of all those things, there's those moments, but there's so much celebration in this book. it's a love letter to my parents, to the people who have made me who i am over the years. i had a lot of great mentors. don rickles was like my second father, and i wanted to talk about them. i did a lot of theater which a lot of people didn't know, and my mom was -- she had enough love to fuel a small country and i want to talk about her. the books you wrote were beautiful, empowering women and i think there's a quote -- >> i'm looking. in chapter four -- i don't know if this is the quote you're talking about, but you say, i prefer -- there's two things. i prefer women to men bosses any day of the week. i know most women in high-profile positions have to put in twice the work to get there, work doubly hard to maintain it and consistently outperform to overshadow some of the mediocrity of their male counterparts. >> not these guys. not you guys. >> and they know that no unequivocally means no. my dad never hangs money over her head. he perceives her work equal to or above his job, despite grueling hours. my dad feels like he might have the easier gig. she says many times how grateful she is to my dad that she can stay home to be a mother, to have the time to get involved with various charities and spend her days taking care of the family she loves. she's proud of that. >> yeah. you should have done my audiobook because that was nice. or britney's -- >> definitely not. yours maybe. >> let me ask you this. as you started writing the book and you had to come to terms with some of the mistakes you made, bad decisions you made, how hard was that to put in writing and share with the world and what made you have the courage to say, i'm going to put this out there? i know you're committed to mentoring and helping kids. did it become that you felt you had to do this to help others? it's not an easy thing to do to expose yourself and say, i was wrong here. >> yeah. yeah, that's -- it's hard to say i'm wrong, but a lot of people can do that, and i think it was that, and, you know, if -- i hope that people can learn something from it, you know, and say, i'm not going to make that mistake. also just human things, and i was bullied. i was dumped. i was cheated on, you know, i think people think people like that, that could never happen, and no one would cheat on us. i think to make people feel better about themselves, that we're all just human, and, you know -- >> there's one thing you learn about yourself in the process. >> if there's one thing? >> yeah. >> that. that to be honest and truth. otherwise, what's the point, you know? this stuff eats you up, and the more you stuff things down, it comes out in other ways, relationships, and, you know, disease, whatever it may be. i just turned 60 and i'm just -- i'm happier than i've ever been. i take a deep breath and thank god i'm a father and a husband now. >> and enjoy life. the new memoir is entitled "if you would have told me," by john stamos. it's great to have you back on the show. >> and that does it for us today. msnbc reports picks up the coverage after a quick final break. c reports picks up the coverage after a quick final break. new emergen-c crystals pop and fizz when you throw them back. and who doesn't love a good throwback? 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