0 can i have another kiss? han heyou know, try to pro her yway that we could. yoknow all, everybody. do it ch other. >> and ny've fused thattentioarah's baby. ughter j i being raistheir mo but like eveelse, it's real famil mom's house when jyn i there and, you know, hri sunday, policing in america. >> he didn't attack nobody. he didn't kill nobody. >> a young man with bipolar disorder wrongly believed to be committing a crime. apparently he is a schizophrenic. >> dies in police custody. >> please! >> in front of his mother. >> he told our mother that he loved her. >> anton black's story raises so many questions about policing in america. >> get on the [ bleep ] ground! >> how did a police officer who lost his job in one city get a job in another? how could anton's death be ruled an accident? >> anton black was in a fight and lost, and that is a homicide. >> and are police unfairly attacked while doing a dangerous job? >> any indication of malice, i don't see any indication of indifference. >> no. >> this morning we will look at the pressure points of policing in america through the lens of one case. the death of anton black. >> my son was george floyd before george floyd. >> welcome to sunday and a special edition of "meet the press." >> announcer: from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history, this is a special edition of "meet the press" with chuck todd. good sunday morning. i hope you are enjoying your labor day weekend. this morning we are going to do something a little different, take a deep dive into the debate over policing in america. there are few cases of policing more notorious or consequential than that of george floyd. floyd's death, which sparked a huge national debate about defunding police, it set off street demonstrations and made the phrase "black lives matter" a household term. it's another case that happened before george floyd in the small town of greensboro, maryland, with similarities and connections to the george floyd case that were actually going to examine in depth today. first reported by "dateline" by lester holt and supervisor producer dan, the death of anton black in police custody touches on so many fault lines we have been debating about, race, mental health, escalation versus de-escalation, police accountability and the role of the medical examiner just to name a few. in this morning's special edition of "meet the press" we are going to review what happened to anton black, how he died, how the cause of death was determined, and perhaps most importantly how a police officer with a history of violence in another jurisdiction was even allowed to be on the job. and in each step of the way i will talk to experts on policing. a scholar on race, criminal justice, the president of a police defense fund and the director of the innocence project as well as a former medical examiner. but let's start by meeting anton black. a star athlete whose death has raised so many questions about policing in america. here is lester holt. >> how you doing? i'm anton black. i hope you like my introduction video. >> yeah, this is my baby boy. anton. >> anton was a standout athlete, voted his high school's homecoming king twice. >> he was a star wide receiver on the football team. and mid-atlantic champion in the 100, 200, and the high jump. i used to love to see him run. oh, and jump. >> reporter: after graduating anton enrolled in college. but his sister latoya said his true passion was to build a career as a model. >> he had the looks. >> definitely gorgeous. >> reporter: but in that summer of 2018 anton's behavior changed. >> to me all of a sudden he got moody, he was crying, he was upset all the time. >> he went to a hospital? >> yeah. anton was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, a condition that often develops in the teenage years. anton lived in the small town of greensboro, maryland, a few miles from the border with delaware. it's an important point that will soon come into play. greensboro is a racially mixed town of approximately 2,000 residents. one in seven of whom are african american. the town has four police officers in total. residents often describe greensboro as a real life mayberry. that changed in september 2018. a saturday evening when a married couple driving home from church saw something alarming. anton holding a 12-year-old boy in a head lock. when the woman asked the boy if he was all right, xavier said no. so she called 911. and greensboro officer thomas webster responded. what neither knew was that anton and xavier had known each other for years. >> all right. listen, you are not his brother? >> no. >> i am. >> he is not my brother, bro! >> stop. >> reporter: before webster turned on his extraordinary, xavier told him anton was schizophrenic which wasn't accurate. he had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. when webster went to handcuff anton he gave the officer an odd response. and began to run away. webster radioed the dispatcher. >> black male wearing all black just fled on foot. apparently he is a schizophrenic. >> reporter: three other men joined the pursuit. two off-duty officers from nearby jurisdictions who happened to be in the area along with a civilian on a motorcycle. anton ran to his home and locked himself in a car outside. officer webster arrived moments later and without saying a word he drew his baton and smashed the driver's side window. then he fired his taser. >> i'm tasing him, tasing him. >> reporter: but it didn't work. anton grappled with the man up a ramp towards his front door as he cried out for his mother. >> he is schizophrenic. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. >> reporter: the officer then wrestled anton to the ground. with the help of a civilian who had a confederate flag on his motorcycle helmet. >> he's cuffed. >> everybody take a breather. >> reporter: anton's mother heard the commotion and stepped outside. webster began speaking with her. >> anton here tried to abduct a 12-year-old and fled from the police. >> reporter: anton, handcuffed and on his stomach, was kicking his legs, so webster decided to shackle him, too. anton continued to cry out. >> i love you! >> you will be better if you don't fight. >> reporter: officer webster told anton's mother he wasn't in any legal trouble. >> he needs help. >> yeah. okay. >> so he is not getting locked up? >> reporter: anton went limp. >> anton, come on, buddy. >> reporter: that's when emts were called but they could not revive him. >> i saw, that's why i can't sleep to this day. i see him begging for his life. you know, he is calling, mommy. they never got off of him. opened up the door. how come they didn't let him up and i am standing there. >> we will pause the story here. i am joined by two men, paul butler teaches criminal law at georgetown university and author of "chokehold, policing black men." joining us is jason johnson, the president of the law enforcement legal defense fund which provides support to officers charged with crimes. gentlemen, welcome to "meet the press." >> great to be here. >> i want to try to unpack the incident itself and what the police could have done differently. we put up the definition of de-escalation from the national consensus of policy and discussion paper from 2020 and the definition is this. an attempt to stabilize the situation and reduce the immediacy of the threat so that more time, options and resources can be called upon to resolve the situation without the use of force over the reduction in the force necessary. jason, let me start with you. what we saw with thomas webster, did he follow this definition? >> not in my opinion. no, he is not. i think it's important to remember de-escalation is just words on a page. unless we train our police officers how to de-escalate. it's not a skill we are born with. we have to be trained how to do it. as far as i know, the officer wasn't trained how to do it. did he employ those tactics? no. were they appropriate to the situation? i am not sure. but they certainly were not used. >> paul, it's without, i mean, my goodness, a good thing we have body camera footage so we are able to are some idea of what the truth is. what are some ways -- you dealt with a lot of these cases. what are some ways that officer webster could have handled this differently. >> chuck, every year the police arrest about 10 million people, and not one of those 10 million people feels like getting arrested that day. so de-escalation is about common sense ways of reducing the trauma and stress of an encounter with the police so it doesn't end in a tragedy like what happened to anton black. in this situation keep in mind mr. black had not committed a crime. he is rough-housing with a friend. we know that. this is something that when people see african american young men playing around, they are more likely to think of it as a crime than if it's someone else. but what de-escalation in this context means is looking at the situation. how do you talk to people? do you communicate with respect with your tone, with your voices? are you thinking in this warrior mentality? president obama's commission on policing said one of the concerns is that too many cops now have this us against them mentality. it's guardian, not warrior. >> jason, explain the decision by the officers to pursue him when he fled. >> the information that the officer receives is that we hear the 911 tape, it's that there is a younger boy who is in a headlock. the officer responds in good faith assuming that's true. he makes some observations that tend to confirm that. his interaction doesn't dispel that and anton black leaves. he gathers information to perhaps seem to think he is suffering from a mental health emergency. officer webster seems to understand that. so he has no idea where anton black is going, whether he could harm himself, harm other people. he has a duty to follow up in my opinion, and that's what he does. i heard what professor butler said. i do believe that the officer was respectful in his initial encounter with anton black. i don't think he came across as authoritarian or mean at all. i thought he was respectful. and so i think the reason for following him is he has a duty to do that. >> you believe he should have followed him? that there was enough cause to follow him? >> he responded to a concern that this child was being hurt maybe and he learns that, no, they're friends. the kid is just playing around. at that point the criminal law enforcement interest was over. still the officer elects to seize mr. black, to try to put him in handcuffs. and what has anton said? he said, i love you, and he runs away. again, every officer does not have to make every arrest. in this case, there was nothing to arrest for. but too often these kinds of chases, even when they are about nothing, lead to tragedy. >> let's talk about the next confrontation, jason, which was he goes, he sees that he is in the car, and the baton to the window. there doesn't seem to be any justification for that. i am curious what you would say or what his defense is? >> i would say that is the part of this incident that if you watch the videotape, that's the part that sort of hit me, is the most likely that, look, if people are going to have questions about this, why did he do that. my response is police officers are human beings. they are not perfect. in this case i don't believe officer webster had been trained in the de-escalation policies. i think what he was intending to do is reduce or eliminate the risk. first of all, he didn't know that is anton black as far as i know. he doesn't know that's his house he doesn't know that's his car, as far as i know. he wants to eliminate the risk. he doesn't know if he has a risk, if he wants to harm himself. if his intention, is to see anton black, that seems to be his intention, and we could argue the propriety of that, if that is his intention, why note do it when you have the opportunity immediately? might not be talking about it at all if anton black is safely placed in handcuffs and taken to a hospital. you know, looking at this in a light most favorable to what the officer's intentions were, which i am sort of inclined to do that, i believe, was his intention. >> then there was also the tasing. the question is, looking at a layperson, what was the rush? why not let him sit in the car for half an hour and cool off? it seems like what was wrong with just sort of stepping back? >> that would have been the best police practice. it's true that police officers are human beings, but they are human beings who are licensed to kill. and in this context you have to wonder about how much of a difference anton black's mental illness made. sometimes police officers buy into this stereotype that people who are mentally ill are more dangerous or more likely to commit violent crimes, and all of the data tells us that that is not true. >> let me -- when do you think it is -- do you understand when a police officer feels as if they are not sure going into his situation, they are not sure, might reach for a weapon and they have to always be prepared that the person they are trying to calm down might reach for a weapon, how should they be handling that situation? >> the legal standard is, if an officer reasonably believes that she is about to be killed or that the suspect is about to harm somebody else, then she can use deadly force. if that's not the situation and there is no reason that the officer in this case would have any practical reason to be concerned about mr. black, the officer isn't entitled. a federal judge, in a civil settlement in this case, said that a reasonable jury could find that the cop used excessive force. >> is there any part of the tasing that is defensible in your view? >> i would say this is not a use of deadly force. using a taser is not deadly force. ideally, it stops there. again, in my earlier remarks, looking at it again, in a light most favorable to officer webster, i believe that's what he was trying to do is end it there and the taser was an extension of that. >> end what exactly? >> his design was to place anton black in custody and, again, we could debate whether that was proper or not, but that was his -- i would say it was. that was his objective to get anton black in custody using a -- if he uses the taser effectively and anton black is taken into custody safely, that changes the outcome. i go back to he used the taser as he was running away. not coming towards him. should that have been a difference when you use the taser? >> the legal standard for using the taser is active resistance. if a person is actively resisting arrest -- >> that would have met the legal standard? >> i agree a jury could disagree with this. i understand it's not a well established -- but i think there is an argument to be made that there was a reasonable action by the police officer. >> professor, got to make this clear. the police can't shoot somebody or use nondeadly force because they are running away from a crime. it has to be proportionate to the threat. in this case there was no threat from mr. black. >> all right. i am going to pause here. you guys are coming back a little bit later in the program. so we will see you again and continue this discussion. when we come back we will tell you a little bit more about the police officer thomas webster. turns out he had a violent past. he was an officer in dover, delaware, where he was seen on police dashcam video kicking a young african american man in the face, knocking him out and breaking his jaw. still got hired by greensboro. his story and the aftermath were well known to the town before they hired him. how did this happen? stay with us.