that s going to do it for us tonight. i told you it was going to be a show and a half. now, it is time for the last word with lawrence o donnell. that evening, rachel. i listened to episode one of the new podcast today, and i ve got to ask you a favor. could you stop doing this thing where you reveal really dramatic, interesting stories about united states senators i ve never heard of? because, one of the angles of me getting a paycheck out of this place is i pretend that i m like the senate expert around here because i worked there for a while and this is not helpful, rachel. i spend the day listening to you tell me about a senator i ve never heard of and by the way, the single most dramatic thing that has ever occurred in the russell senate office building where i used to work and i did not know what happened until today listening to you, and it s not supposed to be like that. i m very sorry. i will start doing podcasts that are about like state legislatures and states you ve never been to. and rachel, i am filled with questions and possible spoiler questions that you are free to deflect, but could you possibly join me after i get a little worked on here about donald trump s probation, to talk about the podcast because there are just so many things i want to see if you can answer and then of course there are things you might not want to answer. i would love it. i look forward to answering your questions and to dodging them. all right. just get into your slippers well i do a little chat with andrew wiseman. thank you, i will see you in a minute. today was a routine workday for america s 93,900 probation officers. but, one of those probation officers had the least routine workday of that probation officers life today when that probation officer in new york city became the first probation officer in history to interview a former president of the united states. donald trump s first probation interview today is a standard and necessary part of determining what sentence donald trump should receive after a manhattan jury found him guilty of 34 felony charges of falsifying business records with criminal intent to violate new york election law and the 2016 presidential election. the probation department will use donald trump s responses to date to determine what sentence the probation department will recommend for defendant trump at his sentencing hearing on july 11th. in yet another demonstration of donald trump getting extra favorable treatment while he is complaining of being persecuted, judge merchan allowed donald trump s defense lawyer to attend the first probation meeting and allowed the meeting to take place virtually with donald trump in florida. special treatment for donald trump did not go unnoticed by the legal aid society, vermont defenders, new york county defender services and neighborhood defender services. they issued a joint statement saying all people convicted of crimes should be allowed counsel in their probation interview, not just billionaires. this is just another example of the two-tiered system of justice. presentencing interviews with probation officers influence sentencing and public defenders are deprived of joining their clients for these meetings. the option of joining these interviews virtually is typically not extended to the people we represent either. to ensure integrity and fairness, we call on nyc department of probation to ensure that all new yorkers, regardless of income, status or class, receive the same presentencing opportunities. nbc news is reporting that the interview lasted less than 30 minutes and that donald trump s probation officer is a woman. cnn is reporting that the commissioner for the new york city department of probation was present, along with general counsel for the department. joining our discussion now is martin horn, former commissioner of new york city s department of probation. thank you very much for joining us tonight. first of all, we want to get a sense of how unusual this was. we already have the sense that it was a bit unusual, but as to the presence of counsel and it being remote, you have these people representing other defendants, saying that is never available to us. that is correct. it is highly unusual. i think it is appropriate to make some accommodation and recognize the fact that when trump shows up his going to be accompanied by secret service. he s going to be accompanied by the press, and his presence might be disruptive, so the idea of doing the interview remotely doesn t trouble me that much. i think it is somewhat appropriate and certainly during covid, we made use of these remote kinds of interviews. i think you could make arguments both ways. the presence of counsel is highly unusual, and the presence of the commissioner is something i have never heard of in 40 years in this business. can you think of a reason for doing it if you are a commissioner at the time, would you do it? would you join that meeting? no. i cannot think of a reason to do it. i think it skews the interview. i think too many people in the room is distracting and disruptive and not conducive to candor, so no. i definitely would not have done it and i don t think it should ve been done in this case. 30 minutes is the report we are getting. what do you make of that? sounds abbreviated to me. usually these things take at least an hour. the content of what this interview was supposed to cover, and what the court is supposed to address is spelled out very explicitly in state regulations and it goes on in some length that it covers a wide array of issues. i don t believe they could be addressed and half hour unless mr. trump just refused to discuss all of them, which was certainly his right to do. there is reporting that he did cooperate and answer all the questions. i m not sure whether that is completely true but i m assuming that. what do you think are the most important things they should have obtained in this discussion? the judge certainly knows the defendants. he does not need to know much more. i think the important question to be addressed here was aggravating or mitigating circumstances. this was an opportunity for the defendant to set forth mitigating circumstances, and for the probation officer on behalf of the people to set forth any aggravating circumstances, but perhaps most importantly is the question of whether, if this individual is not sent to prison, but is granted probation, is this an individual who is likely to accept the terms of that probation and the supervision of a probation officer? and, what with the terms of probation be, and what would that supervision be like? all i can speak to is the typical case and obviously this is not the typical case, but typically a probationer would be expected to report to the probation office periodically, certainly no less than monthly at first, to keep the probation officer apprised of his or her comings and goings, certainly not to engage in illegal activities, not to associate with individuals engaged in illegal activities, certainly not to miss use drugs and alcohol, to fulfill his or her financial obligations both to his or her dependents, but also any fines or restitution that has been ordered. what about associating with people who have been convicted of crimes, many people around donald trump has been convicted of crimes. historically this has been discouraged by probation agencies around the country. it has been liberalized somewhat recently but i think it is something the probation officer appropriately would discuss with the individual to determine whether it is the association that is occurring for a good reason or not. thank you very much for joining us tonight and sharing your expertise. this evening in florida, donald trump s favorite federal judge whom he appointed, denied trump s request to dismiss the case against him for violations of the espionage and act and illegal possession of classified documents. she wrote checks myths prosecution or other permitted by law, raise evidentiary challenges not appropriate at this juncture and/or do not require dismissal even if technically deficient so long as the jury is instructed appropriately and presented with adequate forms as to which defendants alleged conduct. judge cannon did grant trump request to strike one paragraph of the indictment about donald trump s alleged meeting with a representative of his political action committee believed to be his campaign adviser, susie wiles, and his golf club in bedminster, new jersey in 2021. the indictment says donald trump showed that person a classified map at that time. judge cannon said that because showing that map is not one of the charged crimes in the indictment, it is quote, not appropriate to include it in the indictment. in the ongoing scandal that is the united states supreme court, now there are tapes, thanks to lauren wednesday, winsor, who was interviewed by julie reid earlier this evening. lauren windsor is a progressive activist known to approach important republican people pretending to be an hour, making flattering comments than secretly recording their responses. she is a dues-paying member of the supreme court historical society, which has corrupted itself into an organization that allows right-wing supreme court influencers to comfortably influence right- wing supreme court justices at the annual dinner of that organization. last year at the supreme court historical society s annual dinner, lauren windsor made recordings of her chats with supreme court justices that even she found so uninteresting she did not publish them. this year was different. she got samuel alito to agree on tape to the goal of returning the country to quote, a place of godliness. is a catholic and as someone who like really cherishes my faith, i just don t know that we can negotiate with the left and the way that needs to happen for the polarization to end. i think it s a matter of like winning. i think you re probably right. one side or the other is going to win. i don t know. i mean, there can be a way of living together peacefully, but it s difficult you know because there are differences on fundamental things that really can t be compromised, so it s not like we re going to split the difference. that s what i m saying. i think that the solution really is like winning the moral argument, like people in this country who believe in god love got to keep fighting for that to return our country to a place of godliness. i agree with you. by contrast, chief justice roberts responded very differently. you don t think there s like a role for the court in like guiding us toward a more moral path? no. i think the role for the court is deciding the cases. that is for the people we elect. that s not for lawyers. i guess i believe the founders were godly, like were christians, and i think that we live in a christian nation and that our supreme court should be guiding us in that path. yeah, i don t know that we live in a christian nation. i know a lot of jewish and those muslim friends would say maybe not. let s not our job to do that. our job is to decide the cases as best we can. and samuel alito made his wife very much a public figure by blaming her publicly for flying flags supportive of the january 6 insurrection at the capital at their homes, you might expect mrs. alito to have little to say to strangers about flags. and you would be wrong. what you think they re coming after you? i mean like the whole like appeal to heaven flag was like right. the other thing is feminazis believe they should be in control. feminazis was a term coined by rush limbaugh. fox news had not even been invented yet and so samuel alito s wife is quoting material from rush limbaugh that is over 30 years old. that is how long she has apparently been listening and taking direction from the likes of rush limbaugh. you know what i want? i want a sacred heart of jesus like because i have to look across the lagoon at the flag. for the next month and he s like oh, please don t put up a flag. i said i will do it because i m deferring to you but when you are free of this nonsense, i am putting it up and i m going to send them a message every day, and every week i m changing the flags. this is how i satisfy myself. i made a flag into white and it is yellow and orange flames around it and is the word for shaman italian. andrew weissmann, msnbc legal analyst and co-author of the best-selling book, the trump indictments. andrew, this is quite an interesting window of sound into the thinking of senator alito and chief justice roberts. well, the description from both of them could not be more striking in terms of where the country is, and you know, we are hearing from a man who is the principal architect for the reversal after 50 years of roe versus wade. his thinking is in that decision is, i think, just this week as his thinking that was shown in the letter he submitted trying to justify the flag incident, and you also have this dichotomy because you have the chief justice saying what is of course the correct thing to say, and we are on the eve of getting a decision on presidential immunity and it is a real sort of blot on this country and the judicial system had to be so direct that you have justice alito and justice thomas sitting on decisions that is not the way the country is supposed to be operated. it s not the way the court is supposed to be operating and their conduct is reflected on these tapes but their conduct in many ways even without these tapes is something that is really besmirching a really important branch of government in this country that we are entitled to count on and it is very hard to have faith in the system when you have that kind of conduct in these types of tape recordings coming out. we also have in these tapes now something very close to proving that samuel alito supreme court justice lied, lied publicly about the flags and the reason for the flags being up because here is the person who he is blaming on the flags being up saying she wants to do these flags just because of the flags that other people have including the pride flag that somehow is oppressive to her. absolutely. there is nothing in there about a response and we know that even that story, the timing of that story did not make any sense in terms of what it was supposed to be in response to, as we have now heard with respect to the police report and the neighbor across the way, and so what is really amazing to me is that there is just zero accountability of the supreme court and that is where chief justice roberts is much as he may be a good man personally and obviously said the right things which you don t really get credit for that for saying the right thing because that is what is expected but that is where he is to blame for not taking stronger action and there are a number of things he can do that would put more pressure on two justices who are really not upholding their oath of office in a way that helps this country , whatever side you are on. if you saw this from a so- called liberal justice i think we would be just as outraged and of course you would hear just as much but rightly from the far right that it is not appropriate behavior. you know, i will speak for me and i think this applies to you. i spent most of my life finding it inconceivable that we would be doing a story about a supreme court justice lying and lying about something important in public that affects the integrity of the courts on decisions and i am now realizing in retrospect that the reason that was inconceivable was really the supreme court justices themselves who we grew up with, who could not possibly step in these things the way samuel alito and clarence thomas have, but especially a leader with the flags and his wife making his comments to a stranger about the flags that have become something far beyond controversial. the flags that they are flying that share the spirit of the january 6 insurrection, all of that just completely inconceivable not because of any ethics enforcement body, but simply before because who was actually serving on the supreme court, whether we agree with them or not during most of our lifetimes. i want to point out one other aspect of what he was hurt now on tape saying, which is that the christian nation should be brought more to be a christian nation and as a jewish-american, that is not what our country is about. there is an establishment clause that is supposed to separate our religious beliefs which everyone is entitled to their own, but it is not established by the government, and that principal is very much under attack right now with at least five, if not six justices, but hearing that from justice alito s mouth basically just rips off any sort of pretense as to what is going on, and it really tells you very much how dishonest the dobbs decision was that reversed roe versus wade, this idea of we are sending it back to the states. that is not what is going on. this was part of a religious fervor that was animating what was going on, and you have justice alito really just saying it out loud, whether you like the idea of the tape recordings happening in the way they were done is neither here nor there, because you know, there was nothing that prevented him from responding in a way that justice roberts responded, which was entirely correct. the tape reveals the profound depths of the stupidity of samuel alito. we are out of time for this discussion. andrew weissmann, thank you very much for joining us tonight. coming up, our next guest needs either a very long introduction or no introduction. i will decide which one during a commercial break. rachel maddow joins us next. has grown me the best garden i have ever had. good soil, and you get good results. this soil will blow you away. it s the martha stewart of soil. nothing dims my light like a migraine. with 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for verizon wireless. so he sublet half his real estate office. i think some of them [ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg s moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don s paying so much for at&t, he s been waiting to update his equipment! there s a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don t have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. wyoming in the 1940s. wonderful wyoming, state of promise, land of far horizons. horizons, promise, also, pigeons. lots of pigeons. there was a serious infestation of pigeons. that is roger mcdaniel, a wyoming historian and author. he also served in both houses of the wyoming state legislature, and the pigeon infestation he is talking about was that his old workplace at the wyoming state capital. that is the start of season two of rachel maddow presents ultra, the broadcast in which rachel once again introduces us to a u.s. senator i have never heard of. lester hunt is the man who climbed out on the window ledges at the state capital to drop poison to kill the pigeons. lester hunt, when he did this, was the newly elected governor of the state of wyoming. it gives me pleasure to introduce to you at this time the honorable lester hunt, governor of wyoming. he set his sights on the u.s. senate and he won that race. a distinguished guest for the evening is the honorable lester c. hunt, the senator from wyoming. the most popular politician in his state. lester hunt, newly elected u.s. senator, he heads to washington to do what he has always done, to advocate for his constituents, the people of wyoming and also to try to do some good for the rest of the country. he is as poised as anyone could be for success in that job, but things are about to change for him radically. what he is about to encounter in washington will cost him his life. he will not live to see the end of even one term as a u.s. senator. joining us now is rachel maddow. you can get the first episode of ultra, second season now anywhere you get your podcast or subscribe to msnbc premium on the apple podcast up to get every episode early and add free. rachel, i can t take it. listen. we have 10 minutes. it s just us. tell me all the rest of it right now. like i can t wait for the next episode, just go. so then what happens? well, and then there is us at the end of it. it becomes the america that we know. i m not going to tell you the whole story. thank you so much for letting me come onto your show to talk about it and for listening to it and for liking it. lester hunt is i mean, he is not a completely forgotten figure, but the thing things went so badly for him very quickly after he got to washington that went i have tried to do in episode one is create the lost sense of possibility. he really did lose his life to the scandal i am writing about and working on in this podcast and it is a huge loss for the country because he did have a long, bright future ahead of him if everything leading up to his life and that moment was anything to go by and i feel like i have become really good at resurrecting old villains we had forgotten about from history, but lester hunt is one of the good guys that we need to unearth and remember his legacy, too, and the loss of him is something that went really wrong with extremism in american politics. it is something we should regret and remember and commemorate. yes, so he is a democrat getting elected in republican ohio wyoming, a difficult thing to do and impressive no matter when you hear that. he is kind of the jon tester of his time there in that situation. but, apparently very naove when he gets to washington in such a way, and i m speaking beyond what i know because all i know is episode one but clearly, he gets eaten up by washington, so this is a drama about more than him. so, what happens with him, and you will get there very quickly in the next couple of episodes, is that he is confronted in the senate with the first major thing he does in the senate. there is another senator who is in the opposite party, who is his opposite number and this other senator gets involved in a nazi propaganda campaign, this dirty false conspiracy theory tale that is designed to hurt the united states, and lester hunt realizes what this other senator is doing. he is repulsed by it in the come to loggerheads in the senate over this thing the other senator is trying to advance in part of the reason i wanted to do this story is learning that while that is happening, while there becoming mortal enemies in the united states senate, they also lived next door to one another, and their backyards back up onto one in each and others houses and how they have decided they re out to destroy each other, they can see how each other is living, and that only ratchets up the revulsion lester hunt has for this other senator and he just decides you know what? i m going to take the political risk. i ve got to stand up against a monster like this and he does and it is for the good of the country and cost him his life, but what he is fighting for, and the reason he is fighting against that foreign influence operation in washington and the low down dirty depth some people were willing to go to for political gain is an inspiration to me even though it cost him his life. so, the first season of ultra taught us about the poll that fascism had in the united states, the attraction it had for some people, how far they were willing to go to advance the cause of fascism here, and that is pre-world war ii and into world war ii, that story, and this takes us to a period after world war ii where it hasn t you make the point that those people, most of them tended to disappear after pearl harbor, but that did not mean they stop thinking what they were thinking. it also did not mean they went away in politics. one of the things you and i talked about a lot with season one is that it became kind of a forgotten story, the great sedition trial, all the americans who sort of worked with a nazi agent who wanted nazis to win world work two were defeated in the united states and that means we forgot their stories and we forgot them pretty quickly. when they were all kind of let go and didn t get prosecuted for it, not successfully prosecuted for it or in the case of members of congress, none of them were prosecuted at all, their story was mostly forgotten and those of them that stayed in public life kept being the same kind of people they were before, and so, for example, one of the characters in season two is a guy who was part of the silver shirts and linked to the german-american phone that was riding for charles conklin s publication. those are all entities we learned about an altar season one. in season two, he ends up being the subject of an international years long manhunt by the united states government. they believe him to not be just an american fascist, but an american fascist and a traitor and possibly a nuclear terrorist. so, it just gets worse when these people get away and he ends up involved with a republican senator who is a sitting senator in the united states senate, so when you let these folks get away with things, it is important you at least keep tabs on them to see where else they re going to turn up, because it s never good. so, how many episodes, rachel? eight. and those of us who want 16 or 24, what do we do? so, you tell stories in your show that are similar to this. they tend to be 20 to 25 minutes, something like that. each podcast episode is significantly longer than that. what is the difference for you as a storyteller in the way you approach the podcast as opposed to the way you approach the show? very good question. so, the podcast is basically a little book. or a tv show, like if you think about it if you put of the episode links together it ends up being something that i want to be able to hold your attention for about four or five hours. in order to hold your attention for that time, it has to be well told. we use a lot of archival audio, a lot of historical audio. finding the wyoming audio archives to get the sound of lester hunt s voice was an incredible odyssey and super fun, but the idea is that this is a single story arc that cannot be told in the course of a tv show. you need to stick with it for an eight-episode arc but by the time you get to the end of it, you should ve learned a whole nothing about american history and hopefully be propelled along the way by the dramatic interest in it, so that it sticks. i want these stories to be memorable. i m not just interested in these stories because they are not well known. i think they should be well known. like, we should all remember lester hunt. we should all remember there was an internationally wanted american fascist fugitive who was involved with the republican senator at the onset of the cold war. we should understand what happens when the great sedition trial in the united states and with all of those people getting away and all of those seditionist movements effectively getting away without ever being held criminally accountable for what they ve been charged with. i want those stories to be vernacular, to be part of the way we think about our history as americans in dealing with really strong, antidemocratic challenges, because we have a strong antidemocratic challenge right now so we should do what is in our armamentarium of options for how to respond to it and what has worked well in the past and what is not. and, the key to this kind of great drama is even if you don t care about democracy, and i don t understand you if you don t, but if you don t care about democracy, this is still great drama with great characters, perfectly told by america s friendliest voice to tell you scary things. the good news is, these scary things are kind of over, except there are big threads of them still with us now. rachel, by the way, an alternative name for altar that you could have considered it s more letters, but stuff lawrence o donnell doesn t know. that could be the title but it s hard to squeeze it into a small state space. i like america s friendliest voice for telling you scary stories. i may hit you up for the copyright on that. you got it, it s yours. thank you, lawrence. thank you, rachel. can t wait for more episodes. thank you. remember, you can listen to the first episode of alters second season everywhere you listen to your podcast. coming up, there have been only two presidents in the history of the united states who have issued pardons to members of their family. president biden has promised he will not become the third as leger deliberates the case against hunter biden. that is next with andrew weissmann. is next with andrew weissmann. cologuard is for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. i did it my way oh, why leaffilter? it s well designed, efficient, i appreciate that. leaffilter s technology keeps debris out of your gutters for good, guaranteed. what more could you ask for? call 833.leaf.filter today, or visit leaffilter.com. she runs and plays like a puppy again. his #2s are perfect! he s a brand new dog, all in less than a year. when people switch their dog s food from kibble to the farmer s dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there s no magic involved. (dog bark) it s simply fresh meat and vegetables, with all the nutrients dogs need instead of dried pellets. just food made for the health of dogs. delivered in packs portioned for your dog. it s amazing what real food can do. when did i call leaffilter? when i saw my gutters overflowing onto my porch. leaffilter is a permanent gutter solution, so, you never have to worry about costly damage from clogged gutters again. it s the easiest call you can make. call 833.leaf.filter today, or visit leaffilter.com. your son is on trial and i know that you cannot speak about an ongoing federal prosecution, but let me ask you, will you accept the jury s outcome, their verdict, no matter what it is? yes. have you rolled out a pardon for her son? yes. and president bill clinton s last day in office he pardon his younger half-brother roger clinton who served one year of his prison sentence after pleading guilty to cocaine distribution charges. 138 years earlier, president lincoln parted his wife s sister, the widow of a confederate soldier, and one of the thousands of pardons issued after the civil war under the proclamation of amnesty and reconstruction. that is the entire history of pardons for family members of the president. the jury completed one hour of deliberation today in the federal case against hunter biden. the jury is considering three federal felony charges against hunter biden. count one, false statement and purchase of a firearm. count two, fall statement related to information required to be kept by federal firearms license deal. count three, possession of a firearm by a person who is an unlawful user of or addicted to a controlled substance. the washington post reports biden s lawyers argued that prosecutors have not offered evidence that their clients was on drugs when he bought the gun and signed a federal form attesting that he was not using illegal substances, or that he took drugs during the 11 days the gun was in his possession. biden family members including first lady joe biden have been in attendance at the trial. president biden did not attend or comment on the trial, but issued this written statement last week. i am the president, but i am also a dad. jill and i love our son and we are so proud of the man he is today. hunters resilience in the face of adversity and the strength he has brought to his recovery are inspiring to us. a lot of families have loved ones who have overcome addiction and know what we mean. as the president, i don t and won t comment on pending federal cases, but as a dad, i have boundless love for my son, confidence in him, and respect for his strength. our family has been through a lot together, angela and i are going to continue to be there for hunter and our family with our love and support. after this break, andrew weissmann will give us his evaluation of the evidence in the hunter biden case. that is next. have ever had. good soil, and you get good results. this soil will blow you away. it s the martha stewart of soil. want to get the most out of one sheet? grab bounty. 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well, before we get to that i want to point out that compared to the opening where we talked about justice alito and the concern about the rule of law in this country, this is an example, as was the new york criminal trial, of the rule of law working for you see the courts function even when you re dealing with the former president or in this case, the son of the current president. i think they re focusing on intent. the proof here is very strong that there was possession of the gun. there is very strong evidence of the addiction hunter biden had, and the issue is, was healed she aware during the relative time periods when he signed the form that said essentially he was not an addict, did he believe that he, at that point, was an addict and also during the time he possessed of the gun, for about a two-week period, did he believe he was an addict? in other words, there is an intent requirement. making a mistake is not for criminal law. that s for civil law but this is a criminal case so i think they re going to be focused on that. also there is sufficient proof, if the jury wants to find it, but abby lowell is an extremely good defense lawyer and we will see if he pulls a rabbit out of the hat, but i think the big picture for the public is less what happens in this case and the fact that you have a president of the united states living the rule of law in this country, and you have the rule of law working, even for the president s son. andrew weissmann, thank you very much. we will be right back. very muc. we will be right back. for pneumococcal pneumonia. i m getting prevnar 20 because there s a chance. .pneumococcal pneumonia could put me in the hospital. if you re 19 or older with certain chronic conditions. like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, .or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. prevnar 20® is approved in adults. .to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. in just one dose. don t get prevnar 20® if you ve had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects were pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. i want to be able to keep my plans. just one dose can help protect me from pneumococcal pneumonia. that s why i chose prevnar 20®. ask your doctor or pharmacist about the pfizer vaccine for pneumococcal pneumonia. for moderate to severe crohn s disease skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn s disease. control of crohn s means everything to me. ask your gastroenterologist about skyrizi. control is everything to me learn how abbvie could help you save. choose advil liqui-gels for faster, stronger and longer-lasting relief than tylenol rapid release gels because advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. so for faster pain relief, advil the pain away. chris counahan for leaffilter the permanent gutter solution that protects your home in so many ways, it takes more than one chris to explain it. but together, i think we ve got the job covered. like leaffilter s has your gutters covered. protecting you from getting up on this thing to clean out your gutters ever again. and you know how else leaffilter protects your home? 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class= nosel > div class= colspacer > div class= gutr > that is it for us, thank you so much for watching. remember, if your friends are busy tonight, had a hot date, you and can watch the nightcap tomorrow night, saturday at 11:00. he s turn right here on msnbc. for now i am signing off and on that note i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late with me, i will see you tomorrow. i think back and i go, this was such a senseless murder. and why diane? why, when she was ready to start a brand-new life? i will never know that answer. spectacles kept coming. hi diane, it s 2:00, just making sure you are here today. at 2:00 it was too late. simone have killed her. we had her body at the scene, that was all. she had a fiance. they argued a lot. we had our ups and downs, no question. and a coworker with a crush. he was an odd character. i was always very spoiled lead to her. everybody was suspect. then the break. tips from other women. he wanted to get me in there and i didn t budge and all of the bells were going off. i jumped in my car and took off. i felt i had dodged a bullet. the who was frightening, but the y was much worse. in my wildest rooms i would have never imagined something like this could even exist we you certainly had a motive. yes, we did. it was the afternoon of november the 15th, austin, texas, 4:00 p.m. something ominous in the air. suddenly, the familiar feel of it against the skin, comping. something big. they did tell us on the news, if you don t have to go out tonight, don t, because we are going to get relentless reins. and then the sky overhead turned dark, like midnight in the afternoon. when stuff like that is pitch black out and you have the fear of tornadoes. sure enough, so the announcers on tv, twisters had been spotted heading towards the city, including northwest. diane lived in the northwest and i called her i said, hey, girl, they just said there is a tornado heading in your direction, and she said my direction? and she s like, i don t know what to do. i ve never been in a tornado. so, she was kind of freaked out? she was very freaked out. then the ferocious rain and heavy wind, the thick funnel clouds dipped around the city. the next morning, a friday. it was all over. friends checked on friends. but no one could reach diane. the freaked out one. diane holik work from home, for ibm. that morning, so unlike her. she missed the conference call. hi diane, it is to:00. i am just checking to make sure you are safe. all day, phone calls from ibm and friends went to voicemail. diane, hey, this is sharon, i was going to see if you are going to show up tonight or not. she didn t. i got to the club and i was waiting, and she didn t come, she didn t come, and i spent all of my time wondering when she was going to show up. had she been caught in the storm? had her house been hit? a coworker called the police. they cruised over to diane s neighborhood and found her big house unscathed. they. through windows, the security key. they went upstairs. there, all but hidden behind a guest room bed, they found diane. someone had killed her. i actually had a scream of some sort, just like, you can t it is not true. that is not what happened, that is not diane. but of course it was. diane holik, 43 years old, suddenly the unlikely center of a strange and disturbing mystery, and a most unlikely victim, murdered. absolutely lived life with gusto. she was a vivacious, beautiful woman. reporter: lynn had a known diane since the 90s when they started working together at ibm. she let her friends, she let her family. we would vacation together. we would have so much fun and just laugh and laugh and laugh. well, a lot of things we like to do altogether was we hit the clubs a lot. lots of dancing. lots of dancing. diane met anita and cheyenne cooper at the ladies room of an austin bar. she was in there, she said oh, you have cowboy boots, you must know where country barn is. we said yeah, i do. our best friend is coming and we are going to go when she gets here. and she said cool, i m going to go with y all. first time i had ever met her, never seen her before. she was in town for 3 weeks. diane said well, not just for the club, so she gets into the truck where her clothes are and starts pulling at something western and starts putting it on right there in the parking lot. she was crazy. she was throwing things on that she was stripped right there in the parking lot. right there in the parking lot. we danced all night long, she was having a blast, so happy that she had met the two of us, because she said, now i have me some dancing buddies. so magnetic. which, said her colleague, helped make her a fine recruiter for ibm. i would center off to colleges, and these kids, they would just gravitate to her. she had a personality that just stood out. and her attitude? endlessly adventurous. one time i remember sending her off to do a recruiting trip, and she got out there and they were doing a balloon fest, and she called me up and said, i need half a day off. and i said why? she said, i m jumping in a balloon and going. she would always test the edges with you? always, yes. she would throw all kinds of parties at her house and invite everyone she knows. so, they may not know each other, but everybody knew her? yes. yes. and she was great, she just loved having all of these wonderful people around her. in any room, any crowd, diane was the lure, especially to men. it was never a problem going out with her, because she was like a magnet for all of us. yeah. there was always been around when diane was there. always. so there were. now she was dead. and the one thing that seemed obvious, there is that second floor bedroom, what happened to diane for the mark of a man. coming up, a killer is calm and cool as he is coldhearted. you commit the act of murder, and then you leave, you don t want to get caught, the that person didn t do it. that, in itself was odd. someone close to diane? an interesting thing happened when she had 40. i need a partner, i want marriage. when dateline continues. tel all bundled with progressive you ve got the peace of mind to really wander. yeah. yeah, i just hope it stays this way. once word gets out about these places they tend to -are you done? -aaand there it is. willll (rebecca) it wasn t until after they had done the surgery to remove all the toes that it really hit me. you see the commercials. you never put yourself in that person s shoes until you re there. 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(energizing music) i got a page from the supervisor in homicide saying that a woman had been found deceased in her home in northwest austin. narrator: detectives tracey gerrish and eric de los santos i got a page from the supervisor and homicide, saying that the woman had been deceased in her home in northwest boston. detectives tracy garrett i long since learned that if didn t tell them much. but when diane was murdered? we had the body, and that was all in the beginning. they looked for evidence of forced entry, there was none. the doors were locked and windows were attacked. either the killer knew her, or she let the person in. in any event it certainly didn t look like a robbery turned deadly. she still had her watch on, she still had a tennis bracelet on, and she had a charm that was in her hair that had obviously been on that was not around her neck. she also had some money that was sticking out of her pocket. so, maybe diane s body would tell them the story. the killer had hidden her under a bedspread. it appeared that she had been strangled, a ligature mark around her neck. it could have been a rope, it could have been one of those flecks fans that you used to exercise. clearly not somebody s had? clearly. what about her eyes and her face? was there any sign there? she definitely had in the eyes sign strangulation. she appeared to have a bruise on her cheek. it was like a rubbing type of a bruise on her cheek and she had four of them on her stomach. rubbing type of ruse? as if you are being dragged across the carpet and it was a rug burn. they discovered sponges of lipstick and mascara on the carpet. we also found a spot of urine, where her body would have been, had she been strangled. so, we knew something that happened there at that particular spot. she must have been killed there. and behind the bed where they found her body, was there any indication that she had been sexually assaulted in any way? no. her clothes weren t messed up. there was nothing indicating that she had been fighting, she had no scratch marks on her neck. why didn t she try to defend herself? so, as we continue to look at the body we notice some red marks on her wrist. that was interesting, because you don t usually see that. there was no ties, there was no rope, there is no tape around her in the room. just red marks. just red marks. little red marks that look, somehow familiar. it looks like two parallel lines, and then perpendicular to those lines were little lines , probably a 16th of an inch apart. i ve seen these marks before, sometimes on the flex ties that we use. ties. zip tied binder. but then he would have cut them off afterwards. he obviously cut them off afterwards, and we knew that immediately. detective santos s mind went to the darkest of places. diane must have been restrained with those zip ties, helpless, terrified as she watched her killer preparing the ligature and put it around her neck. what kind of horror did you go through? what was going through your head? after she was dead, the killer must have stayed for a while, carefully erasing any sign of his or her presence. so, that in and of itself was odd, that doesn t happen. you commit the act of murder and then you leave, you are scared, you want to get out of there, you don t want to get caught. this person that we didn t know, if they were male or female, didn t do that. with this person? so deliberate, so cold-blooded. this was no straightforward case, nothing simple about it. i probably didn t sleep for 72 hours. as they chased down their endless questions. so, what does that leave you with? was it a targeted killing? the one who is angry with her? those were all possibilities. most of the time you are going to be killed by someone you know. sometimes it is someone you know very well. and of course, we are all familiar with domestic violence, so, you know, we want to see who is in the immediate inner circle of her life? diane s friends, they learned, she had been married years before, but had spent most of her adult life as a single woman and happily so. until she changed her mind. she left her single life, and she loved her independence, but an interesting thing happened when she had 40. she decided, i need a partner, i need somebody like my friends have. i wanted marriage, i want the things they have. so, diane set out to find a mate. with the help of the dating service, it s just lunch. and pretty soon she met a divorced father of two, named dennis connolly. i think they truly, immediately had a chemistry. i think they were in love. he was a successful businessman, he was handsome, he took her everywhere, and that is what she was looking for. just two months later, dennis presented diane with the bubble of a lifetime, a $20,000 engagement ring. he loved her, he put her on a pedestal and treated her like a queen. she likes his daughter, she cared very much for his daughters. and that was a strong point. they make plans, as lovers do. dennis had moved from austin to houston. the idea was diane could sell her big house and move down there too. it was a downmarket then, but as diane told her friends, there was one potential buyer. now diane was dead. and there were all of those questions. not a robbery, and yet, as the detectives soon discovered, something was missing that $20,000 engagement ring nowhere to be found. so, police wondered, where was fiance, dennis, during the violent storm? and did he know something? coming up. the storm outside and in. they argued a lot. we had our ups and downs, no question. you know, it wasn t like physical? never. when dateline continues. lin it s okay to show off. with dupixent, show off your clearer skin and less itch. because you have plenty of reasons to show off your skin. with dupixent, the #1 prescribed biologic by dermatologists and allergists, you can stay ahead of your eczema. it helps block a key source of inflammation inside the body that can cause eczema to help heal your skin from within. many adults saw 90% clearer skin, some even achieved long-lasting clearer skin and fast itch relief after first dose. serious allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. tell your doctor about new or worsening eye problems such as eye pain or vision changes including blurred vision, joint aches and pain, or a parasitic infection. don t change or stop asthma medicines without talking to your doctor. show off to the world. ask your eczema specialist about dupixent. ask your eczema specialist it was true, all her friends knew it, diane holik was in love with the man it was true. all of her friends knew it. diane holik was in love with the man she met , smitten like a teenage girl, but the road of love, as we all know isn t always smooth. they were engaged so quickly. too quickly? before long they encountered some serious issued set her friends, anita and jared. they argued a lot. about, one example? her dogs, were like children to diane. but she told her friends, dennis didn t want any dogs in their new house in houston. they fought, set her friends, about what he seems to want her to be. she was always talking about, hey, didn t want her to do this or didn t want her to do that and that will cause arguments. she would not go along with it? no. she was independent? what was he? controlling. oh. very controlling. that can be a difficult combination to so, it was confusing, she probably wore this spectacular ring, but the engagement was off and then, maybe on again. and yet, that very week, set her friends, diane told them she still didn t know what to do. so, she had gone back and forth and back and forth? emotionally she was a roller coaster, because she just couldn t see how it was going to work and none of us could see how it would work either. especially when she told sharon she had made a date with another man. we kept telling her, if you are still wanting to do these things, you are not ready for that. but she had her house for sale? yes, she was going to downsize. if she didn t get married, she was going to downsize anyway, because this house was just way too good. waffling under plans for dennis? a date with another man? she said she had seen dennis angry, so, after diane was murdered, she wondered maybe he had just lost control of his life and killed her. that was my first thought. detective gerst ash dennis to come to the station to speak without the aid of a lawyer. the detectives focused on the timeline. they believed diane had been killed that stormy thursday afternoon or evening. her body was discovered about 5:30 p.m., friday. we were definitely interested in where he had been for the last three days. he knew he was going to verify his alibi to us. at the station, dennis seemed upset, but composed. as he told investigators, he was in his office in houston the night of the big storm, but exchange online messages with diane, back in austin that afternoon. it was just, you know, like, hey, i m working late, i m getting ready to go home, and she just send me, you know, i love you. that was it. and you were at the office? okay. dennis said he got home from work late thursday evening and was back on friday. we looked at the conference, could he have driven down to austin for diane and theoretically driven back in time for work? and yes, he probably could have. they checked diane s answering machine and found messages from him, this one was left on friday, the day after the big storm. she was dead by then. hey, you, if i don t hear from you in about an hour, and calling the freaking police. and have to go by your house okay? another message, saturday morning. diane, what is going on? give me a call. you have me worried to death. by. which could have been some sort of cover-up, of course. dennis admitted, their relationship was iffy. we ran into rough spots. we were going to build a house in houston and i decided that, you know, given the fact that we weren t getting along to gather, very well i mean, there was no fight, we all fight, it s just everybody carries baggage of your relationships at this age, and and our baggage was clashing, and we were working on it, but we decided not to be engaged anymore. okay. and stop holding a house. but he said they were going to therapy, which was hoping. i mean, we were really, really making breakthroughs, you know? about diane s dogs, for example. she saw that i was accepting the fact that, you know, her dogs were going to be in the house. and not long before diane was killed i remember her saying you know, that she would she loved me and that she would jump at the chance to be in a relationship and marry me, and, you know, no matter how long it took. yeah. we had our ups and downs, no question, but it wasn t like no physical fights? no. never, never, never even angry or loud words. it was just it s stupid, you know? she thought i should be more of a like, handyman kind of guy, like her dad, right? and and i thought she should be more appreciative. what she faithful to you? i would i would be shocked if she wasn t. i would be stunned. everyone has his or her version of the truth, of course. dennis story, not at all what diane s friends said they had been hearing from her. i wanted so many times to just say, dude, you are just so stupid, because she did want to marry you. detective geyer garrett took fingerprints, collected dennis s dna and check his alibi, and dennis? before he left, dennis brought up another name. has anybody gotten a hold of ray? no, we are trying to figure out who ray is. ray was a colleague of diane s at ibm. he seemed to worship the ground she walks on. he seems to be attracted to women that are not attracted to him. honestly, if i was if i was a woman, i would he would be giving me the creeps. and according to dennis, he and diane were not on good terms. now, they had a falling out about a month or so ago. don t know the exact nature of it. so, time for a talk with ray. coming up. a coworker, with a crush, but did he want something more? i was always very spoiled to her, and very affectionate to her. when dateline continues. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. ingrezza ingrezza is clinically proven for reducing td. most people saw results in just two weeks. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. only number-one prescribed ingrezza has simple dosing for td: always one pill, once daily. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington s disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide. don t take ingrezza if you re allergic to its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including angioedema, potential heart rhythm problems, and abnormal movements. report fevers, stiff muscles, or problems thinking as these may be life threatening. sleepiness is the most common side effect. take control by asking your doctor about ingrezza. ingrezza everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it s a great product. it s going to help a lot of patients. i ll be honest. by the end of the day, my floors.yeesh. but who has the time to clean? that s why i love my swiffer wetjet. it s a quick and easy way to get my floors clean. wetjet absorbs and locks grime deep inside. look at that! swiffer wetjet. i am just collate in with the hour s top stories. the united nations is answering adding israel and hamas to its military forces harming children amid military conflict. the news comes as israel faces new criticism for an airstrike in central gaza that killed dozens of people at a u.n. displacing palestinians. and president biden spoke of the need to protect democracy while fighting dictators and hateful ideology, as he honor the sacrifices of soldiers 80 years ago on the beaches of normandy. now, back to dateline. suspicion. there was lots of it to go around after diane holik was choked to death in her own guest bedroom. at least one of diane s friends directed her suspicion at dennis. the man who said he was her fiance, but was he anymore. dennis swore it wasn t him, but maybe he was suspicious too. what about this guy? he asked? what about ray. there was a man that she worked with, by the name of rafael chauncey, and she had actually hired him at ibm, so she was kind of his boss. maybe more than his boss? here s what diane s friends told the police about ray. he was johnny on the spot every time she needed something. he always called ray and ray was there. honestly in my heart i believe that he truly loved her and would have varied her. if she would have him? yeah. if she would have him. it seemed off to dennis. s relationship with diane he told the police, it was a little too cozy, obsessive maybe? he always felt like maybe ray kind of took a liking to her was very infatuated with her, and he would always offer to take care of her dogs when she was out of town. always wanted to be kind of close to her. so, he thought maybe that he had too much of an interest in diane. what s more, ray had his own personal key to diane the house and remember, there was no forced entry. the killer was either invited and or had a key. so, detective gerrish asked ray to come into the station and answer a few questions, except it was ray who seems to be full of questions. working on it. unfortunately i don t know anything about diane holick when until i went to her house last night. he seemed excited to share what he knew. how long have you known diane? two years. he was an odd character, eager to help us, almost too i eager, to the point where throw us off a little bit. my group, my payment to her was not to always take care of her dogs. in two years she didn t have a dog sitter, i even change my schedule so i could walk her dogs. he told you a lot didn t he? man, i can t believe it. i always had a crush on diane, since i was younger. to diane reciprocate your feelings? no. did that ever cause problems to you? no. in the beginning argument that stuff? no, in the beginning we have some i was always very spoil- ey to her, very affectionate, she didn t like it. they played good cup, that cop. another detective came in, frustrated. no sexual relationships? you want to? i always wanted to, but never did. know, it was a little bit more formal than that i guess. you never had a sexual relationship? no. never. so, your dna shouldn t be found on her? you are not giving it to us? if you wanted. ray agreed, he did have a key to her house, but he also had an alibi, he was at work the day diane was murdered. i had the badge. there s cameras all over the place too at work. you can ask for the records. that day, ray said he stayed late at work and then drove home through the terrible traffic created by the storm. and after that, stayed home. stayed home and didn t go anywhere. back to work this morning at 8:00, 8:00. of course they needed to verify all of that. but when they asked ray about dennis, the fiance? that is a loaded question. it is and. i mean, i want the truth. there were some problems or whatever? they were going to get married this november. clearly diane had complicated relationships with dennis and ray. so, just as they had done with dennis, police fingerprinted ray and took a dna swab and went on looking. sharon told the detectives done had a date with the man and they couldn t figure out who that man was, but they tracked down every man she had met from the dating service. i interviewed every single day she had through that service. too many options. police wondered, has diane been strangled by a man she had met through the dating service? or a man she knew well? even left? and yes, something seems to be missing, but what? this wasn t going to be easy. coming up, a funeral and a wedding, and what some say was a former fiance s extremely strange behavior. oh god, we did a morbid thing. i mean beyond belief. and finally a clue. was this one of his stakes? when dateline continues. first and only nasal spray for dry eye. tyrvaya treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease fast by helping your body produce its own real tears. common side effects include sneezing, cough, and throat and nose irritation. relying only on drops? not me. my own real tears are my relief. ask your eye doctor about tyrvaya. that is an affluent neighborhood. it s not normally where you find murder victims. narrator: darla davis was worried. that is an affluent neighborhood, it is not normally where you would find murder victims. tyler davis was worried. diane s ball body was there barely cold. prosecutors jump on the case and encountered a problem. the fact that she lived by herself. there were many wanted to change that single status and there was certainly reason to look at them carefully. but the prosecutor worried too. about another possibility. we might have a stranger on stranger offense, which is way harder to solve. so, essentially a dead body, not much evidence? right. no idea who did it. exactly, and i had an idea that we would have the crime scene. that meant she had investigators went back to diane s house to take a look. and went over it with the alternate light source. we have to do it in the dark. we just take it and put it in carpeting or on any kind of fabric or anything. and certain things will fluoresce. for example, if there is blood. the alternate light search source we are looking for. it didn t look like diane had been sexually assaulted. but they had to know for sure. and when they tested? there were no indications that there was any semen anywhere. and that room are different parts of the house. nothing. no semen, no blood, no evidence of sexual assault. and apart from her missing engagement, nothing in diane s house seemed out of place. except, in the middle of the otherwise brisk living room. there, on the loveseat is this tower just thrown open. weird. it was definitely out of place. maybe it was left behind by the killer? was this one of the mistakes? there were hairs later on. her hairs? no. there were seven hairs on that terrible. they sent the hairs to the dna lab. her friends plan the excruciating details for diane s memorial service here in austin. sharon found the funeral home and the lady to do the makeup and everything. we went in with them and help them pick out a casket and all. and her dress for an open casket. i need to make sure that whatever we got looks right and covered the appropriate parts of her. seeing where the wounds were, seeing where the ligature marks were, probably just as difficult as the day i found out that she passed. dennis came to the service, as expected, but he tended to not speak with anybody, which i found somewhat strange for a man, who was so in love with diane. front and center? no, he did not sit front and center, which somewhat surprised me. watched through a haze of grief and suspicion. when diane s parents moved her body from austin to their home in new york for the funeral, diane s friends as was dennis. and as diane lee in her open casket something very strange happened. oh god. he did a morbid thing that just infuriated her parents. i mean, beyond belief. dennis had brought a minister with him to the funeral. to actually say the marriage vows to him, as she was laying in the coffin. and then took her hand and put that gold band on. i thought mom was going to come unglued. diane s parents removed the ring, said a friend. but, the diane s family was appalled and her friends were deeply suspicious, back in austin, investigators were looking at all kinds of possibilities. dennis, ray, and other men diane had left remained on the list of statements, their alibis checked and rechecked. and the first time love. but that murder prosecutors talked about, was that really what happened? was the killer some random predator? is not a great feeling to know that you are going to have to expand out into the possibilities that this was somebody who was a stranger to her. because that makes it so much harder. that second, more intense search of the crime scene detectives found the first time, including this killer, where the lover has been careful and clearly prepared for what he, or she was going to do. this person, who is trying to avoid being captured. yes, so he cut the zip tie off of her and took the zip tie with him. and thus removed the evidence, but there was this one other thing, just a passing comment. they heard it from anita, on the phone with diane. she said that she had somebody that had come by earlier and had looked at the house, was very impressed with it. i said that is good. she says, yeah. i might finally sell this thing. good that visitor be connected to diane s murder somehow? or that discarded what towel? with those seven tiny strands of hair. coming up, a stranger knocking on doors. what happened next. i felt i had dodged a bullet. he wanted to get me in there and i didn t budge. i stood there with all of the bells going off. when dateline continues. ne this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks and could make it hard to be there for your loved ones. shingles could also lead to serious complications that can last for years. if you re over 50, the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside you. and as you age, your risk of developing shingles increases. don t wait. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles today. (ethan) i smoked and have had multiple strokes. now, it s hard for me to remember things. my tip is, if you need to remember something, write it down quickly. (announcer) you can quit. call 1-800-quit-now for help getting free medication. some people just know that the best rate for you is a rate based on you, with allstate. because there are people out there who aren t you. a lot of them. and you don t drive like. whoa. i don t want my child being raised by a robot! other drivers are not you. yes, thank you so much to all 50 of my subscribers. nope, definitely not you. save with drivewise and get a rate based on you. you re in good hands with allstate. looking for a smarter way to mop? try the swiffer powermop. an all-in-one cleaning tool, with a 360-degree swivel head that goes places a regular mop just can t. mop smarter with the swiffer powermop. feeling claritin clear is like. [cat meow] is she? letting her imagination run wild even though she has allergies. yeah. her uncle s unhappy. i m sensing an underlying issue. it s t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit. unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock.” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it s not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that s uncalled for. the detectives investigating the death of diane holik were all too aware that stranger killings are among the hardest to solve. at the point when you were driving around talking to people here, did you have any idea what you were looking for even? no, nothing. narrator: especially if that stranger is as careful as diane s killer appeared to have been. i mean, it was true whodunit. narrator: the medical examiner looked carefully for evidence of sexual assault, semen, the killer s saliva, dna under her fingernails, that sort of thing. and there was none, none at all. though, police 101, maybe one of the neighbors saw something or someone suspicious. and sure enough, not one, but several neighbors had seen a stranger, a potential homebuyer, who was a welcomed visitor, frankly, in the difficult housing market that year. they all agreed he was tall, had dark slicked back hair, and a big nose, and that he said he wanted to pay cash for a nice house. so was he the man who toured diane s house day of the storm? you always try to find the last person that saw sure. the victim alive. and we thought, well, this man could be the last person to see her alive. narrator: who was this phantom homebuyer? interviewer: did anybody get a name? we did get one name, walter miller and a number. narrator: walter miller? of course, they looked up the walter miller s around austin and found two of them. neither one fit that description, though. and the phone number the man left course they looked up to walterg miller around austin and found two of them. neither one fit that description though. and the phone number the man left? it ended up being a fax machine. it ended up belonging to the wife of a guy, by the name of matthew supolsky. matthew supolsky. what with you? he had a background involving a drug addiction, the muscles, a restraining order against him. and we eventually tracked on matthew and they realized right away he could not be the killer. he was in a neck brace, he had been in a bad accident, he had paralysis on his arms, so we knew it couldn t be in. meeting, this visitor, whoever he was, left a fake name and a big phone number. who would do that? then they found another neighbor, who had talked to the guy, heard his story, got a good enough look at him to help with a composite sketch. and we aired it on the 10:00 news. boston police have asked for help in solving a murder. police questioned a man seen in the day before that murder. they described his wife between the ages of 35-45, he s about six feet tall and neatly dressed. and we were hoping to get tips. what you know? before long women started calling. tales about a man who wanted to buy a house. so, what were you hearing from people who may have had a visitor? was at the same story they were hearing? pretty much. yeah, they were getting the story about this guy that sold his ranch in south boston he and his wife are looking to do this quick in the physical description were all the same. some colors, like tammy, had curious details. he had on brand-new gene that were probably three sizes too long. it was the kind of strange thing you remember said agent, tammy. he had on a shirt, a striped shirt that had wrinkles in it. i mean, pulls. just came out of the box? he just bought clothes, i m sure of it. he had suspenders on, which i m sure nobody wears suspenders and it wasn t like his pants are falling off. but it is when she showed him into the house that her nerves went on alert. he said oh, after you, after you. it was a standoff at the bottom of the stairs, wouldn t go. my stomach is tight. tammy was where a. years earlier, she had been raped by a customer. i knew all my instincts, all that i have learned and been through were the reason i was nervous about him. he said his name was jim sage. he kept trying to get her into upstairs rooms. he wanted to get me in there, and i didn t budge, i stood there and all the bells were going off. the next day tammy called the police to report this jim sage. did he hurt you, did he threaten you? did he put his hands on you and i had to say no to all of that. he said i m sorry, there s nothing we can do. but now, diane had been murdered, strangled, tammy remembered the man s odd suspenders use them on diane pop holick s neck. when did that hit you? after. after i found out she was strangled. the calls kept coming in. women, with stories of a strange man posing as a homebuyer, some truly hair- raising stories. like what happened to x real estate agent melanie blunt, six months before diane was murdered. a man had called about one of her houses. it was a vacant listing, and i asked him if he had been prequalified by a lender, and i am paying cash, and so i drove over to meet him at the house or go to the door to greet him. and immediately he was behind me. he would never walk in front of me. which made melody uncomfortable. especially because he only wanted to see vacant houses, and the whole time that i was showing him the home he was never looking at any room. he seems to be more interested in looking out windows than he did the actual room. she said something else seemed off about him. he has a ticket in his neck, constantly cracking, and popping his neck and breathing very heavy. melody wanted to leave, but then the man noticed the detached garage. he was adamant about getting in the garage. he said i really want to see inside the garage. he started that neck popping. her hand shook as she tried to work the key in the door. it didn t open. i just turned to him said i m leaving, jumped in my car. locked the car and took off and i left him. she drove home, still shaken. i have never cried, nor prayed so hard in my whole life , because i felt i had dodged a bullet. melody called the police too. got the same message as tammy. they did not believe me. did he touch you? did he hurt you? no, he did not. when she saw the story about diane and the sketch? i looked at it, and immediately knew that it was the same man. well, the police and prosecutor investigating diane s murder were working every angle they could think of. we were just coming up zero. he knew what he or she was doing and very careful. that was the impression we were getting, and that is what was increasing our anxiety. so, they waited for dna results from those tiny hairs found on the towel in diane s living room. and they listened to the women who called to tell them about being frightened by a mysterious would be homebuyer. who was he? and then one more call and they knew this could be their breakthrough. she said that she had seen the news and she thinks that that man had come to her house and she possibly had a flyer that he had handled that he had left behind. we were really excited about that. which meant that, maybe there might be fingerprinted. did she say this thing? she did it by accident. she didn t just throw it away? no, she actually picked it up and put it in a sack. a story by this time sounded all too familiar. she was excited to sell her house. she was going to pay cash, wanted to bring his wife back to look at the house and he asked her if she could look around. so, she kind of followed him into one of the bedrooms and when he got to the closet he turned around on her and she said there was this awkward silence and he just stared at her, she just became so uncomfortable she thought something bad was going to happen. and just then, in a nearby room, the woman s baby cried. and it gave her the opportunity to break the encounter with him to grab the baby and he followed her into the room and was standing behind her, when she turned around with the baby in her arms and it must have spooked him. and he just left? leaving behind the flyer? leaving behind the flyer. so they picked up the real estate flyer and brought in a latent fingerprint those prints might just belong to their killer. remember, they found no prints in diane s house to compare them to. in fact, this was strange. even diane s (hard to find. as if the killer may have wipe them clean. it was really not even the fingerprints that you would think you would find in a house that was occupied. that is very rare. yes, it was very rare and scary. scary because they wouldn t know who he was. scary because if he was a stranger just looking for a convenience target he had probably seen the stories on tv with a composite sketch and knew they were looking for. so he could have changed his appearance or left the area, or even worse, my strike again somewhere else. but then? there was this one more phone call from a woman, who said she too had an experience with a male homebuyer and this call just might lead them to an actual person. coming up. she immediately got a creepy feeling from him. the brick detectives had been waiting for. she actually wrote down his license plate and called police. when dateline continues. co keith morrison (voiceover): the idea that the murder of diane holik had something to do with her attempt to sell her house the idea that me tthe murde diane holik had something to do with her attempt to sell her house was gaining some traction. even the friend who remained so suspicious of diane s fiance wondered about that. i had a fleeting moment that maybe it was somebody dealing with the realty and selling of the house because there were quite a few people that came in. i thought maybe a husband found her attractive, you know? made a move and she didn t go for it. calls were pouring in to the police station from women who all shared a similar story. they described a man who claimed to be in the market for a new home but seemed to be shopping for something more sinister? one woman provided police with the mystery man s fingerprint. detectives thought the crime scene had been wiped clean so there was no way to match it back. there was a new caller and she was about to give them more. and she basically had told us that months earlier that this man with the same story had come to her home but in a different neighborhood. but very affluent so it kind of matched. he was insistent about wanting to go in and see that house. and she immediately got a creepy feeling from him and told him no and her husband said well if he ever comes back you need to call the police or get his license plate because it really scared her. and about six months later he came back and was very insistent on going in to see her house and she told him no she was not going to allow him to come in. and so she called the police. nothing happened then. the reaction she got was like those other women. the police could hardly arrest some guy for just seeming creepy. but this woman did something different. she wrote down the name and phone number the man gave her but more important his license plate number. stuck it on her fridge. instinct? luck? maybe both. she didn t know if he would come back again. she thought it was concerning enough that she would just leave it on her refrigerator just in case and she gave us the original piece of paper she wrote his license plate down with. and. well we immediately ran his license plate and it was a minivan and it was registered to patrick russo and his wife janet russo. patrick russo. his last known address was in a rural area about a half hour outside austin. so they decided to pay a visit. it s a pretty drive to bastrop county. the live oaks, the cypress trees. at 4:00 a.m. the detectives weren t exactly taking in the view as they drove to russo s home. hoping this is a lead that could shed some light on the murder of diane holik. all they had were stories about a creepy guy looking at houses for sale. was patrick anthony russo that guy? maybe, maybe not. dawn was hours away when they knocked at his door. the man who woke up to answer it looked like the composite sketch. coming up. patrick russo seemed an unlikely killer. i ve got my ged. i went to college. i studied for theology to become a minister. but an odd coincidence. he was in diane s area the day she was kills. you remember ever talking to her? when dateline continues. dat (amanda) my name is amanda, and i smoked while i was pregnant. this is the view i had of my baby in the nicu. my tip is: speak into the opening so your baby can hear you better. (announcer) you can quit. call 1-800-quit-now for help getting free medication. shingles. the rash can feel like an intense burning sensation that can last for weeks. shingles could disrupt work and time with family. over 50? the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. don t wait. ask your doctor about shingles today. head & shoulders bare clinically proven dandruff protection with just 9 essential ingredients no sulfates, no silicones, no dyes. dandruff protection, minimal ingredients. job done. if you spit blood when you brush, it could be the start of a domino effect. new parodontax active gum repair breath freshener. clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. hi, i m michael, i ve lost 62 pounds on golo and i have kept it off. a new toothpaste from most of the weight that i gained was strictly in my belly which is a sign of insulin resistance. but since golo, that weight has completely gone away, as you can tell. thanks to golo and release, i ve got my life and my health back. scout is protected by simparica trio and he s in it to win it! simparica trio is the first chew with triple protection. whoa fleas! and ticks! ( ) intestinal worms! whoa! heartworm disease! no problem with simparica trio! this drug class has been associated with neurologic adverse reactions including seizures. use with caution in dogs with a history of these disorders. for winning protection go with simparica trio. craig here pays too much for verizon wireless. so he sublet half his real estate office. use with caution in dogs with a history of these disorders. [ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg s moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don s paying so much for at&t, he s been waiting to update his equipment! there s a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don t have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. keith morrison retrack: a torrent of tips called in to austin police led detectives tracy a tore rent in to austin police led to detectives to the doorstep of patrick russo. a man matching the description of the mysterious stranger seen in diane holik s neighborhood the day of the murder. we told him his name had come up in an investigation in austin and he basically just told his wife that these things will happen from time to time because he s a convict and out on parole and not to worry that he d be back in a couple of hours and we left. on the ride to the police station he went by his nickname, tony. he wasn t surprised they wanted to talk to him. things go wrong in your town or something, it s a possibility people would look at you. and that s okay. i understand that. he seemed eager to help and wanted detectives to know he d turned his life around when he was in prison. i spent my entire eight years in prison doing nothing but engulfing myself in a better life. i got my ged. i went to college. i studied for theology to become a minister. it was behind bars where tony met his wife janet. she a church volunteer. since his release, he said, he d published an autobiography about his tough childhood, his battle with drugs and his redemption. i have a ministry they go into prisons with. i go to churches and share testimony with them on how they can deal with, you know, youth or whatever that are headed in the wrong direction. at his local church he said he d become the minister of music. what is your job at the church where they pay you for? my job is to make sure that the music for the praise team or any kind of music that s being done for church services is handled, whether i play it or have someone play it. and in his spare time? he fronted a christian rock band. what s the name of your band? it s broken silence. broken silence. that s a good name. again, said tony russo. he was more than willing to cooperate with the investigation. i will be happy to do of what you guys need. so i don t have any problem with it at all. so they asked him, where was he when diane was murdered. did he have an alibi? thursday? um, that was that big storm day, wasn t it? thursday, i spent some time at the church again. i went to go to knle here in austin. knle is a christian radio station. tony said they were helping him create a website for his christian rock band. okay. about what time was that? uh, i think it was about. let see, i talked to my wife. i was pulling into the parking lot so that would have been about 4:00, i believe. when no one came to the door i went ahead and left. so you made the trip up there for nothing basically? pretty much. then of course he got caught in that awful storm. i got lost for probably a good hour or so. i got on the phone with my wife. she stayed on the phone with me. it started getting later. that s when the heavy winds started coming and the tornadoes, i guess. so what time did you get home finally? um, my wife s better at the timing on this than i am. 5:30, i guess or 6:00? i m not really sure exactly the time frame. thing was, diane s house where she was killed was not far from the radio station. you remember ever talking to her? no, sir. tony was adamant he d never seen diane. you never talked to her? no. interesting. then detectives asked, had he been doing some house hunting? is there any reason why you d be in a neighborhood looking for a house? no. none whatsoever? uh-huh. of course they knew a thing or two about that. so the detectives leaned on him a little. do you want me to tell you how serious this is? i would appreciate it. i feel like i m getting pretty banged here and i don t even know what it s for. she s dead. i don t know if you noticed when you walked in here, this is the homicide unit. i ve done a lot things wrong in my life. i m telling you that as badly as i feel for this woman here, i m sorry, but you guys are barking up the wrong tree. go ahead, he said. search my house. my car. he even offered to take a polygraph. i don t care how hard you dig, you re not going to find me committing any crime like that. any crime, period. tony s wife janet was very helpful too. and her story about that day was just about the same as his. yeah, i was telling him where the tornadoes were. he doesn t know his way around austin all that well. next thing he knew he d circled back around going west because he was he said well there s candle again. candle is the nickname for knle the christian radio station. when the interviews ended tony asked to see janet. i promise you i never did anything to anybody. i promise. and all i think about is how this affects you and our church and everything we worked so hard for. i know. tony and janet russo had answered all their questions. had been cooperative. and tony even gave them a swab of his dna and his fingerprints. so the police thanked him and took them home. coming up. the interview part two. this one a little tougher. is there any reason why somebody might have seen your van over there? surely i don t have the only pewter ford minivan in this entire town. you have the only pewter ford minivan that has that license plate on it. that is true. when dateline continues. ne started disrupting my day. td felt embarrassing. i felt like disconnecting. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. ingrezza ingrezza is clinically proven for reducing td. most people saw results in just two weeks. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. only number-one prescribed ingrezza has simple dosing for td: always one pill, once daily. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington s disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide. don t take ingrezza if you re allergic to its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including angioedema, potential heart rhythm problems, and abnormal movements. report fevers, stiff muscles, or problems thinking as these may be life threatening. sleepiness is the most common side effect. take control by asking your doctor about ingrezza. ingrezza it s hard to run a business on your own. make it easier on yourself. with shopify, you can have your inventory, payments, and customers in sync across all the places you sell. start your journey with a free trial today. hi, i m jason. i ve lost 228 pounds on golo. changing your habits is the only way that gets you to lose the weight. and golo is the plan that s going to help you do that. just take the first step, go to golo.com. if you re one of the millions of people with diabetes who suffer from low and high blood sugar, dexcom g7 is one of the easiest ways to take better control of your diabetes. my blood sugar would suddenly spike or really go low out of nowhere. it was really scary. (dr. swamy) this small wearable alerts you 20 minutes before you go too low or when you re high so you can take action in the moment. now we re talking a game changer! i m back in control! (announcer) dexcom g7 helps protect against highs and lows. call now! hi, i m jason. i ve lost 228 pounds on golo. i don t ever want to go back to wearing a 4xl shirt or not being able to climb up stairs without taking a break. so i m committed to golo for life. after police interviewed tony russo and his wife, they brought him back in. the day e.after police interviewed tony russo and his wife they brought him back in. again he was cooperative. said he was surprised to be a suspect in of all things a murder. two years i ve done everything i can to make the best life for my family and myself. being caught up in this whole thing is such a mind boggler that i feel like i m in a nightmare state right now. bits of information and the women s stories about a creepy man who looked a lot like him were stacking up. detectives asked him about the upscale neighborhoods where several women had reported seeing him. often driving his minivan. is there any reason why somebody might have seen your minivan over there? surely i don t have the only pewter ford minivan in this town. that has that license plate on it. that s true. that is true. by the time the detectives interviewed tony they d checked for priors and guess what. that conviction the one he was on parole for was for kidnapping with a very particular twist. he had gone into an office where a woman was alone and tied her up with zip ties and choked her. did not kill her but choked her. disturbingly familiar given what happened to diane holik. back then a decade before diane s murder tony confessed to kidnapping and was sentenced to 20 years in prison. it was there he met and married janet and soon after was paroled after serving only one- third of his sentence. but the kidnapping charge wasn t all they found at tony s record. even earlier, years earlier, there it was her. it had actually been a quiet day. donna shank encountered tony when she was an apartment manager. all alone late one afternoon in her building rental office when a man walked in. he wanted to look at a two bedroom apartment for his self and his girlfriend, he says. donna showed him an available apartment. we re walking down the hallway. we get back to what would be the master bedroom so i open the closet door and went into the closet to turn the light on and in a split second he had me by the throat. she struck out at him. tried scratching and slapping him in an effort to get away. he took her down. before i knew it i was on the floor. i was on the floor face up and he was straddling me with both of his hands around my throat just squeezing. tight. very tight. i wasn t able to speak. i wasn t able to breathe. i was thrashing and. grabbing at him and things. bucking, you know, everything i could do. until he grabbed my hands and panned them i guess under his knees. i couldn t move my hands. it just, you know, dawned on me okay well this is it. is this absolute terror? it is absolute terror to where your life flashes before your eyes and. you think i m going to die. and this is it. then she thought no, this would not be it and she thrashed about until she was able to free her hands. and i put my hands on his forearms trying to pull him away. i had sort of a high neck sweater on and he kept pulling my sweater down to look at my neck and his eyes are very different, very scary. it was completely different. it was like flipping a switch. it was a very scary crazed look. then donna in a panic said all she could think of saying. i ve been gone too long, they know what apartment i m in, they will come looking for me and he would say you re lying don t lie to me you better not be lying to me and would call me profanities and would strike me. he s still holding on to you, your throat. yes. but he seemed to realize yes, there was a possibility somebody would be coming to look for her and as quickly as he had become a monster. his expression changed again and his eyes went softer. then he completely took his hands off of me and just went like this and just covered his face and then sat back up and he said i can t believe i did this. are you okay? like he s a different person now. yes. to the point that he was apologizing profusely for doing it, asked me if i was hurt. asked me if i was okay. helped me up off of the the floor. helped me collect my necklace that was torn off and thrown about. he begged donna not to call the police, but she did. and he confessed. he was convicted of misdemeanor assault. and was put on probation. but as the years went by, he had attacked five other women in similar ways. including his kidnapping victim. now he s being questioned about a murder involving zip ties and choking and was denying he knew anything about it. saying the similarities with earlier incidents were merely coincidence. it s disgusting to sit here and listen to you talk about being such a devout christian and forgiveness and how much you ve turned your life around when this one coincidence after another this whole thing goes back to similarities that i m sure coincidental back in 1989, 1990, 91, 92. but you re this reborn christian? and you re going to sit here and lie about it? but the truth was at that point police could only prove patterns of behavior. patterns tony insisted he broke when he became a born-again christian. but really? so the detectives set up a little trap and asked him if his fingerprints could possibly be found on a real estate flier. have you ever handled aureoles flier for a house for sale in west austin. no. then your fingerprints shouldn t be on there. correct. but even as tony insisted otherwise they already had received the test results from the real estate flier saved by that woman. thank you lord tony russo s fingerprints were positively on that flier. what happens in the old gut when that? we knew it was him. we just weren t able to put him anywhere and now we had him. true, they had him recently in the home of a woman who d been terrified by his behavior. but they didn t have him in diane holik s house. to get that evidence they needed time and they worried would he run? then the prosecutor had a canny idea. when tony russo said he didn t touch the real estate flier, that was a lie. and lying to the police was a parole violation. so the da s office came up with this charge that allowed us the time we needed to send off all the dna and physical evidence to see if it we could actually put him at her house. bring your right hand back. so into jail went tony russo. coming up. there were five guys standing like a theater setting. show time. with a script. as his victims come face to face with tony russo. repeat the following phrase. do you have any information about the floor plan of the house? do you have any information about the familiar plan of the house? i did not expect him to be right in front of me. so that was extremely frightening. when dateline continues. i m out of breath, and often out of the picture. but this is my story. 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we had so many women that had let him into their homes in different neighborhoods all over austin, south austin, north austin, even real estate agents that he had called when he wanted to look at vacant houses. but could any of those women actually identify tony russo as their guy? we felt like we needed to do a live lineup because the phrasing and his ruse that he used was so specific and the women remembered his voice and they remembered his story. so they rounded up some austin police officers who looked like tony and put him and them in a lineup. and brought the women in. and there were five guys standing like on a theater setting. number one, take one step forward. couple of feet above me and we re down below. number two, repeat the following phrase. you have a beautiful house. you have a beautiful house. we had a script that each person had to step forward and exactly repeat what the detective was telling them to say. i m going to pay cash for a house. i m going to pay cash for a house. it was everything that was said to each one of these women when he went into their homes. i came to this house before, didn t i? i came to this house before, didn t i? repeat the following phrase. do you have any information about the floor plan of the house? do you have any information about the floor plan of the house? he was number one right in front of me. i did not expect him to be right in front of me. so that it was extremely frightening. i picked him out of a lineup immediately. i was feeling a lot of guilt. i don t know why. you just feel what could i have done? somebody s dead and this man was with me. how many of those witnesses picked out the right guy? i believe it was 15 women. out of the total of how many? i think it was 30. eyewitness testimony is notoriously not great and often doesn t carry much weight in a trial so you needed something more. yes. what they needed was something definitive to put tony russo in diane holik s house. they d sent off dna samples from diane s finger where her ring had been yanked off and from that towel on her couch. finally the results. what did the dna tell you? the swab on her hand was a mixture that was consistent with a combination of diane holik and russo. was it enough to say for sure though because dna. no. no, no, no. we can t exclude him. it s consistent with him. but it s not the kind of dna that you can eliminate the rest of the world. right. just really increased suspicion is all. it was helpful. it was dez positive. we sent the hair off to a lab and they did a may toe conacre dry corral dna test. we could not exclude mr. russo. but you couldn t say for sure. no. so close. just not quite the absolute proof they d been hoping for. but the dna did provide one very helpful service. police had confirmed the alibis of diane s fiance dennis and her ibm friend ray. these tests definitively eliminated them as suspects. but we could not eliminate mr. russo. finally six months after diane s death, tony russo was charged with murder. the risk? maybe. they d only get one shot. and the evidence they were going to take to court did not absolutely link him to the murder of diane holik. then the trial was almost upon us. they found something. something almost beyond belief. in my wildest dreams i never imagined that a website like this could even exist. coming up. the dark side to the web. and tony russo. you certainly had your motive. yes, we did. when dateline continues. ths what hd to me. 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not so easy. it was the most complex murder case definitely the most complex murder case i ve ever tried. that s because without hard evidence linking tony to the murder or even putting him in diane s house she d have to assemble all the jagged puzzle pieces of coincidence into a coherent pattern. when you re getting ready for trial you put it together almost like a play. what are you going to tell them first so you script it out. there were the zip ties on his property that seemed to match marks on diane s wrists. his cell phone pinged near her house. the radio station alibi was a lie. the dna, though it wasn t absolutely definitive, could not eliminate him. and all those women that identify him as that creepy guy claiming he wanted to buy a house with cash. cash which he certainly did not have. but then. he really wasn t looking for houses he was looking for victims. like realtor melody blount who cried and prayed after her encounter she found it so terrifying to testify. but did. i did not expect for patrick anthony russo to be sitting across from me within 10 to 12 feet and having to testify with that man looking at me, it was petri fying. and most unsettling when she noticed something all too familiar. now i m glaring at russo and what does he do? he starts that tick in his neck. starts that popping and i raised my hand up and i said there he goes. he s doing it right now. the state also called tony russo s victims from earlier years. including donna the young apartment manager he attacked in lake jackson, texas. this phone call just out of the blue after all of that time. she was not only surprised, she was angry. very angry. why did that have to a. why did someone have to be killed before this man was stopped? and the emotions of that whole ugly ordeal flooded right back. my heart started racing. it was just being terrified all over again. but some of the compelling evidence came courtesy of tony s first wife. as he d been married once before. the first wife said he could not get aroused sexually unless he was choking her and that he choked her when they had sex. and the second wife? the second wife confirmed he also choked her while they had sex. i mean i will say that he does tend to put his hand on my neck. any time i feel like my airway s getting restricted, you know, and he s, he always lets go. so a strange and potentially dangerous fetish but was that all it was? isn t it possible though that he really didn t want to kill diane holik? that s just my belief that he did. that just choking and not killing it was no longer enough. it wasn t enough any more. and why was she so sure? because of what turned up during a forensic analysis of tony russo s computer. the i.t. people landed on it just as the trial was about to begin. disturbing is perhaps too bland a word to describe what was in there. he was a member of a website one that you had to pay money to see. it s described as tastefully erotic death scenes and mr. russo had chosen the subcategory of asphyxiation. omg. uh-huh. in my wildest dreams i never imagined a website like this could even exist or that anybody would want to look at it. you certainly had your motive. yes, we did. it s called sexual sadism. he felt a compulsion to go and choke people. yes. he was sexually aroused by women being choked. oh boy. that gets into pretty dark territory. yes. they nailed him big time. diane s friend anita was in the courtroom as the state rested and she waited to hear tony s defense. we were all thinking okay, well, here we go. we re really going to hear a whole bunch of stuff. the room was packed solid with people. so his attorney just stood up and said defense rests. there was like a huge gasp in the room and then totally silent. diane s friend lynn arrived just in time to hear the closing argument. he stood quiet for a minute and walked over to the jury and he looked them all in the face. he said i need you to understand what happened to her that night. he put his hands up in the air like this and he put his thumbs down and he shook his hands like this as do though he was choking someone. he said, imagine. it took her two and a half, maybe even three minutes for her to die. as he s holding on to her. yeah. stood there and he looked at his watch and just waited. and for at least two and a half minutes nothing moved in that courtroom. and it was silent and he held that position with shaking hands until enough time had passed that a person would have died from being choked. and all of a sudden slams his hand down on the table. i mean, that s how long it took for her to die. and the whole courtroom just, i mean we all broke down at that point. to think that s how long it took for her to die. how long she suffered. the defense, which did not call a single witness made the case in its closing argument for all the drama the state, they said, failed to prove, because it couldn t prove, that tony russo was ever in diane holik s home. couldn t prove he killed her. tony did not testify. but he did talk to us. coming up. the verdict. when the jury walked back in to the jury box i can t even look at them. when dateline continues. lin the virus that causes shingles is sleeping. in 99% of people over 50. it s lying dormant, waiting. and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you re not at risk for shingles? 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oh, we know. we just like making a scene. transferring your services has never been easier. get connected on the day of your move with the xfinity app. can i sleep over at your new place? can katie sleep over tonight? sure, honey! this generation is so dramatic! move with xfinity. davis had put everything she had into the case against tony russo. darla davis nohad t put everything she had into the case against tony russo. when, not if, will the sexually sadistic psychopathic predator strike again. she believed he was a dangerous man who should never be set loose to victimize another woman. her circumstantial case was powerful, overwhelming. but nothing, not even the tiny bits of recovered dna could absolutely prove beyond all doubt that tony russo killed diane holik. so prosecutors, investigators, friends and family were anything but calm as the hours passed. they waited for the jury. then after 11 hours. when the jury walks back in to the jury box i can t even look at them even now. i just looked down at the table and i wait for the judge to read. then. we the jury find the defendant patrick anthony russo guilty of the offense of capital murder. it was great. we really worked for this one. so they did. and won a case which remains as relevant a cautionary tale as it did in 2004 when the jury pronounced its verdict. seller beware. that was quite eye opening. the effect on not only her friends but the community as a whole and the real estate business. people need to see this and be aware so maybe this will stop that from happening. and tony russo? his hair has gone silver now. he s in prison for life. and here one friday morning he brought his bible to the barrier that separates his world from ours. his holy staff of assurance that what he was about to tell us about his role in the murder of diane holik would be god s truth. that jury comes back and says guilty, what s that like? devastating. when you re innocent, it s devastating. innocent? yes. and so i hear from the warden that you got your bachelors in divinity. yes, sir. if i had to spend the rest of my life in here i want to use it for christ. throughout our talk he wore his christianity like a badge and like an accusation. i noticed that in the media they love to sensationalize any christians or people that claim to be christians that somehow they just they ve got it, there s some hidden secrets in their life. but your victims were christians too. saying you re a christian and being a christian are two different things. in other words you have to be totally honest? i don t think you have to be totally honest but i think there s things in your life that you ll exhibit whether christ is in your life or not. the evidence against him? he had answers for everything. like why he lied to the police when he said he wasn t looking at houses when in fact he was. i did deny in the interview because i felt like i was going to incriminate myself in the original interrogation. i did, however, share with my attorneys what had been going on. which was, he said, perfectly innocent research. looking at the different designs and things. for a long time we had talked about building a house, one of my friends from church had lived in a mobile home while he built a house on the back of his property. so we wondered, why did he behave in a way that terrified all those women who testified in court against him? you got to admit that was a pretty creepy thing to do. i don t know how creepy it is to look at houses or designs of houses. to tell people a whole shaggy dog tale about why you re there, to follow them around the house, to make them nervous. i preferred not to follow anybody through a house. they re the ones that want to show you the house so they tend to lead you. the rental agent he attacked and half strangled back in 1989. what do you have to say to a woman like her? okay, i don t remember her at all. i don t. and yet he actually confessed to attacking that woman back in 1989. and what about the witness so frightened by his visit to her house that she and her husband saved his license plate number? they kept the license number. they kept about four license plate numbers of people that looked at their house or wanted to look at their house without a realtor. not true, said darla davis. his license number was the only one they saved. i also asked him about his decision to take the pinstriping off his van, just then. he said that wasn t because police were looking for it but because it had been vandalizes. i was going to redo the pinstriping since i had originally put it on there. the zip ties police found wrapped around fencing on his property? they belonged to a friend, he said. and the statement by his wife janet that he would sometimes choke her during sex. i mean i will say that he does tend to put his hand on my neck. i never choked anybody. you choked your wife. no, i did not. she said you did. no, she didn t. she said you choked her as part of a sex act. that s how you had sex. that s not true. that s a manipulation of what she said. i m just telling you that s what she said. we reminded tony he d been married twice and in marriage number one same issue. but your ex-wife says you choked her. okay. and that s how you got sexual arousal. the only way you d get sexual arousal. i m not going to go into detail to embarrass her so i d rather not say anything about her. you know that s a tactic, don t you? i ve seen this done a thousand times. you can call it a tactic. if you ve got something to say about the woman, say it but don t do that where i m not going to say a bad thing about her because it would be mean to her. that s bs and you know it. well, under the world standards yeah that would be bs. but as a christian it s not. we asked about that pornographic website reporting to show the killing of asphyxiation of women. the one he had to register and pay for before he could access it. i cannot help that porn sites pop up on a computer. they don t pop up unless you look at some porn site. so there s an explanation for everything. there s a truth to everything. oh, yes, tony russo had an answer for everything. i am absolutely innocent and it disgusts me that every time you try to say you re innocent everybody says isn t that what everybody says? have you confessed the ultimate sin to god? what s the ultimate sin you re talking about? murder. if i had murdered someone i definitely would have. be you you say with your hands on your bible. i will die claiming my innocence and people can believe it or not believe it. i absolutely am innocent and i don t care how guilty i look. he couldn t convince any courts of that though. all his appeals failed. here he will stay. outside this institution, several women still struggle with the anxieties and fears and prisons of their own created by him. come back any time i get a call from a man that wants to see a house who is single. every time. i could have been a victim. i was an intended victim. that s a hard thing to think about. and they told us, the trauma lives on. though. it s comforting to know he s in there. that he can t hurt anybody else. they are sorority sisters of a sort who unwilling to live their lives as silent victims came together to help get tony russo off the street for good. we did our job and we got him convicted. so they did. this sisterhood. for the sake of a woman whose fate might have been theirs. diane holik. whose friends came together to remember how they miss her. even after all these years. she was a constant friend. she was in my life every day and all of a sudden she was gone in an instant like blowing a candle out. you see the smile on all these photographs. was she always smiling? always. always. she had a magic smile. it was infectious. if she was smiling everybody else had to. we had to. i m andrea canning, and this is dateline. andrea canning: it was one of the most harrowing days in our history. i hear
Buy the gun. gordon cleveland, who was this gun clerk? jesse also testifiedn? that heen saw hunter biden check nok know on the box on that federal gunic form, which is really reale case of this entir . all right. so, dave, you were in the courtroom and hunter t huntes ie same room as his wife, his ex-wife, his ex-girlfriend and his mom and, his sister. how awkward was that? yeah, it was definitely a unique situation. actually. biden was not there today, his sister, but she has been there the past sistesh couple o. notably, the first lady has been there everylady single daya i sat about ten feet behindt her, kind of at a diagonal. soeet be i could see the side oh face as she was watching. and she seemed sadwatching. e is she seemed troubled. she was stoic. she was watching hunter biden s curren her- t wife, melissa coh. biden did the same, not kiacting, just kind of being very muted as some of these images were being showg n on the evidence. charred pictures of hunter
Quite robust bullying women, in the way he can be quite robust with men, people can be forgiving quite robust with men, people can be forgiving of quite robust with men, people can be forgiving of the latter, and when rishi forgiving of the latter, and when rishi sunak debated liz truss in the leadership rishi sunak debated liz truss in the leadership debate, his interrupting of her leadership debate, his interrupting of her cost leadership debate, his interrupting of her cost him a lot with tory members. of her cost him a lot with tory members, and they did not like a man seemingly members, and they did not like a man seemingly to treat a woman with discourtesy, so nigel farage has got to play discourtesy, so nigel farage has got to play it discourtesy, so nigel farage has got to play it carefully tomorrow and he cannot to play it carefully tomorrow and he cannot look to play it carefully tomorrow and he cannot look too aggressive in that forum cannot look too aggressive in that forum 0r cannot look too aggressive in that forum. ortoo cannot look too aggressive in that forum. 0r too sexist. cannot look too aggressive in that forum. ortoo sexist. how cannot look too aggressive in that forum. or too sexist. forum. or too sexist. how do the debates cut forum. or too sexist. how do the debates cut through? forum. or too sexist. how do the debates cut through? i forum. or too sexist. how do the debates cut through? i don t - forum. or too sexist. how do the | debates cut through? i don t think the cut debates cut through? i don t think they cut through debates cut through? i don t think they cut through like debates cut through? i don t think they cut through like they - debates cut through? i don t think they cut through like they used i debates cut through? i don t think| they cut through like they used to, when they cut through like they used to, when the they cut through like they used to, when the first debates happened with david cameron and gordon brown and nick clegg. david cameron and gordon brown and nick clegg, it was an electric moment, nick clegg, it was an electric moment, the first time in our recent history. moment, the first time in our recent history. we moment, the first time in our recent history, we are seeing decent numbers history, we are seeing decent numbers for the recent debate on itv, numbers for the recent debate on w and numbers for the recent debate on itv, and the numbers are declining. itv, and the numbers are declining. i think tomorrow will be different because i think tomorrow will be different because nigel farage is the special new ingredient in this general election new ingredient in this general election and if he can show that he
Tuscany in the first major quarterfinal and that she found a way to win it. quarterfinal and that she found a way to win it way to win it. look at what it means. might ve way to win it. look at what it means. might ve inspired - way to win it. look at what it - means. might ve inspired russia s -la er, 17 means. might ve inspired russia s player. 17 years means. might ve inspired russia s player, 17 years old means. might ve inspired russia s player, 17 years old and means. might ve inspired russia s player, 17 years old and her - means. might ve inspired russia s player, 17 years old and her fist i player, 17 years old and her fist quarterfinal, she breezed to four rounds to get here and then took on the second seed. she has promise but serena has staying power to reach semi finals of the last six grand slams. and took the first set on the tie break. she went here to be the youngest major semifinalist since 1997 and she levelled this match showed why she could be the sports future. a reach that wrestled this match momentum just like match point she had found a way to stay in it and then found a way to take charge.
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OPINION If it was another instalment in JK Rowling’s world-conquering book series, it might be entitled Harry Potter and the Ugly Fallout. What began as a.