that's going to do it for us tonight. i told you it was going to be a show and a half. now, it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. >> that evening, rachel. i listened to episode one of the new podcast today, and i've got to ask you a favor. could you stop doing this thing where you reveal really dramatic, interesting stories about united states senators i've never heard of? because, one of the angles of me getting a paycheck out of this place is i pretend that i'm like the senate expert around here because i worked there for a while and this is not helpful, rachel. i spend the day listening to you tell me about a senator i've never heard of and by the way, the single most dramatic thing that has ever occurred in the russell senate office building where i used to work and i did not know what happened until today listening to you, and it's not supposed to be like that. >> i'm very sorry. i will start doing podcasts that are about like state legislatures and states you've never been to. >> and rachel, i am filled with questions and possible spoiler questions that you are free to deflect, but could you possibly join me after i get a little worked on here about donald trump's probation, to talk about the podcast because there are just so many things i want to see if you can answer and then of course there are things you might not want to answer. >> i would love it. i look forward to answering your questions and to dodging them. >> all right. just get into your slippers well i do a little chat with andrew wiseman. >> thank you, i will see you in a minute. >> today was a routine workday for america's 93,900 probation officers. but, one of those probation officers had the least routine workday of that probation officers life today when that probation officer in new york city became the first probation officer in history to interview a former president of the united states. donald trump's first probation interview today is a standard and necessary part of determining what sentence donald trump should receive after a manhattan jury found him guilty of 34 felony charges of falsifying business records with criminal intent to violate new york election law and the 2016 presidential election. the probation department will use donald trump's responses to date to determine what sentence the probation department will recommend for defendant trump at his sentencing hearing on july 11th. in yet another demonstration of donald trump getting extra favorable treatment while he is complaining of being persecuted, judge merchan allowed donald trump's defense lawyer to attend the first probation meeting and allowed the meeting to take place virtually with donald trump in florida. special treatment for donald trump did not go unnoticed by the legal aid society, vermont defenders, new york county defender services and neighborhood defender services. they issued a joint statement saying all people convicted of crimes should be allowed counsel in their probation interview, not just billionaires. this is just another example of the two-tiered system of justice. presentencing interviews with probation officers influence sentencing and public defenders are deprived of joining their clients for these meetings. the option of joining these interviews virtually is typically not extended to the people we represent either. to ensure integrity and fairness, we call on nyc department of probation to ensure that all new yorkers, regardless of income, status or class, receive the same presentencing opportunities. nbc news is reporting that the interview lasted less than 30 minutes and that donald trump's probation officer is a woman. cnn is reporting that the commissioner for the new york city department of probation was present, along with general counsel for the department. joining our discussion now is martin horn, former commissioner of new york city's department of probation. thank you very much for joining us tonight. first of all, we want to get a sense of how unusual this was. we already have the sense that it was a bit unusual, but as to the presence of counsel and it being remote, you have these people representing other defendants, saying that is never available to us. >> that is correct. it is highly unusual. i think it is appropriate to make some accommodation and recognize the fact that when trump shows up his going to be accompanied by secret service. he's going to be accompanied by the press, and his presence might be disruptive, so the idea of doing the interview remotely doesn't trouble me that much. i think it is somewhat appropriate and certainly during covid, we made use of these remote kinds of interviews. i think you could make arguments both ways. the presence of counsel is highly unusual, and the presence of the commissioner is something i have never heard of in 40 years in this business. >> can you think of a reason for doing it if you are a commissioner at the time, would you do it? would you join that meeting? >> no. i cannot think of a reason to do it. i think it skews the interview. i think too many people in the room is distracting and disruptive and not conducive to candor, so no. i definitely would not have done it and i don't think it should've been done in this case. >> 30 minutes is the report we are getting. what do you make of that? >> sounds abbreviated to me. usually these things take at least an hour. the content of what this interview was supposed to cover, and what the court is supposed to address is spelled out very explicitly in state regulations and it goes on in some length that it covers a wide array of issues. i don't believe they could be addressed and half hour unless mr. trump just refused to discuss all of them, which was certainly his right to do. >> there is reporting that he did cooperate and answer all the questions. i'm not sure whether that is completely true but i'm assuming that. what do you think are the most important things they should have obtained in this discussion? >> the judge certainly knows the defendants. he does not need to know much more. i think the important question to be addressed here was aggravating or mitigating circumstances. this was an opportunity for the defendant to set forth mitigating circumstances, and for the probation officer on behalf of the people to set forth any aggravating circumstances, but perhaps most importantly is the question of whether, if this individual is not sent to prison, but is granted probation, is this an individual who is likely to accept the terms of that probation and the supervision of a probation officer? >> and, what with the terms of probation be, and what would that supervision be like? >> all i can speak to is the typical case and obviously this is not the typical case, but typically a probationer would be expected to report to the probation office periodically, certainly no less than monthly at first, to keep the probation officer apprised of his or her comings and goings, certainly not to engage in illegal activities, not to associate with individuals engaged in illegal activities, certainly not to miss use drugs and alcohol, to fulfill his or her financial obligations both to his or her dependents, but also any fines or restitution that has been ordered. >> what about associating with people who have been convicted of crimes, many people around donald trump has been convicted of crimes. >> historically this has been discouraged by probation agencies around the country. it has been liberalized somewhat recently but i think it is something the probation officer appropriately would discuss with the individual to determine whether it is the association that is occurring for a good reason or not. >> thank you very much for joining us tonight and sharing your expertise. this evening in florida, donald trump's favorite federal judge whom he appointed, denied trump's request to dismiss the case against him for violations of the espionage and -- act and illegal possession of classified documents. she wrote checks myths prosecution or other permitted by law, raise evidentiary challenges not appropriate at this juncture and/or do not require dismissal even if technically deficient so long as the jury is instructed appropriately and presented with adequate forms as to which defendants alleged conduct. judge cannon did grant trump request to strike one paragraph of the indictment about donald trump's alleged meeting with a representative of his political action committee believed to be his campaign adviser, susie wiles, and his golf club in bedminster, new jersey in 2021. the indictment says donald trump showed that person a classified map at that time. judge cannon said that because showing that map is not one of the charged crimes in the indictment, it is quote, not appropriate to include it in the indictment. in the ongoing scandal that is the united states supreme court, now there are tapes, thanks to lauren wednesday, -- winsor, who was interviewed by julie reid earlier this evening. lauren windsor is a progressive activist known to approach important republican people pretending to be an hour, making flattering comments than secretly recording their responses. she is a dues-paying member of the supreme court historical society, which has corrupted itself into an organization that allows right-wing supreme court influencers to comfortably influence right- wing supreme court justices at the annual dinner of that organization. last year at the supreme court historical society's annual dinner, lauren windsor made recordings of her chats with supreme court justices that even she found so uninteresting she did not publish them. this year was different. she got samuel alito to agree on tape to the goal of returning the country to quote, a place of godliness. >> is a catholic and as someone who like really cherishes my faith, i just don't know that we can negotiate with the left and the way that needs to happen for the polarization to end. i think it's a matter of like -- winning. >> i think you're probably right. one side or the other is going to win. i don't know. i mean, there can be a way of living together peacefully, but it's difficult you know because there are differences on fundamental things that really can't be compromised, so it's not like we're going to split the difference. >> that's what i'm saying. i think that the solution really is like winning the moral argument, like people in this country who believe in god love got to keep fighting for that to return our country to a place of godliness. >> i agree with you. >> by contrast, chief justice roberts responded very differently. >> you don't think there's like a role for the court in like guiding us toward a more moral path? >> no. i think the role for the court is deciding the cases. that is for the people we elect. that's not for lawyers. >> i guess i believe the founders were godly, like were christians, and i think that we live in a christian nation and that our supreme court should be guiding us in that path. >> yeah, i don't know that we live in a christian nation. i know a lot of jewish and those muslim friends would say maybe not. let's not our job to do that. our job is to decide the cases as best we can. >> and samuel alito made his wife very much a public figure by blaming her publicly for flying flags supportive of the january 6 insurrection at the capital at their homes, you might expect mrs. alito to have little to say to strangers about flags. and you would be wrong. >> what you think they're coming after you? i mean like the whole like appeal to heaven flag was like -- >> right. >> the other thing is feminazis believe they should be in control. >> feminazis was a term coined by rush limbaugh. fox news had not even been invented yet and so samuel alito's wife is quoting material from rush limbaugh that is over 30 years old. that is how long she has apparently been listening and taking direction from the likes of rush limbaugh. >> you know what i want? i want a sacred heart of jesus like because i have to look across the lagoon at the flag. for the next month and he's like oh, please don't put up a flag. i said i will do it because i'm deferring to you but when you are free of this nonsense, i am putting it up and i'm going to send them a message every day, and every week i'm changing the flags. this is how i satisfy myself. i made a flag into white and it is yellow and orange flames around it and is the word for shaman italian. >> andrew weissmann, msnbc legal analyst and co-author of the best-selling book, "the trump indictments." andrew, this is quite an interesting window of sound into the thinking of senator alito and chief justice roberts. >> well, the description from both of them could not be more striking in terms of where the country is, and you know, we are hearing from a man who is the principal architect for the reversal after 50 years of roe versus wade. his thinking is in that decision is, i think, just this week as his thinking that was shown in the letter he submitted trying to justify the flag incident, and you also have this dichotomy because you have the chief justice saying what is of course the correct thing to say, and we are on the eve of getting a decision on presidential immunity and it is a real sort of blot on this country and the judicial system had to be so direct that you have justice alito and justice thomas sitting on decisions that is not the way the country is supposed to be operated. it's not the way the court is supposed to be operating and their conduct is reflected on these tapes but their conduct in many ways even without these tapes is something that is really besmirching a really important branch of government in this country that we are entitled to count on and it is very hard to have faith in the system when you have that kind of conduct in these types of tape recordings coming out. >> we also have in these tapes now something very close to proving that samuel alito supreme court justice lied, lied publicly about the flags and the reason for the flags being up because here is the person who he is blaming on the flags being up saying she wants to do these flags just because of the flags that other people have including the pride flag that somehow is oppressive to her. >> absolutely. there is nothing in there about a response and we know that even that story, the timing of that story did not make any sense in terms of what it was supposed to be in response to, as we have now heard with respect to the police report and the neighbor across the way, and so what is really amazing to me is that there is just zero accountability of the supreme court and that is where chief justice roberts is much as he may be a good man personally and obviously said the right things which you don't really get credit for that for saying the right thing because that is what is expected but that is where he is to blame for not taking stronger action and there are a number of things he can do that would put more pressure on two justices who are really not upholding their oath of office in a way that helps this country , whatever side you are on. if you saw this from a so- called liberal justice i think we would be just as outraged and of course you would hear just as much but rightly from the far right that it is not appropriate behavior. >> you know, i will speak for me and i think this applies to you. i spent most of my life finding it inconceivable that we would be doing a story about a supreme court justice lying and lying about something important in public that affects the integrity of the courts on decisions and i am now realizing in retrospect that the reason that was inconceivable was really the supreme court justices themselves who we grew up with, who could not possibly step in these things the way samuel alito and clarence thomas have, but especially a leader with the flags and his wife making his comments to a stranger about the flags that have become something far beyond controversial. the flags that they are flying that share the spirit of the january 6 insurrection, all of that just completely inconceivable not because of any ethics enforcement body, but simply before -- because who was actually serving on the supreme court, whether we agree with them or not during most of our lifetimes. >> i want to point out one other aspect of what he was hurt now on tape saying, which is that the christian nation should be brought more to be a christian nation and as a jewish-american, that is not what our country is about. there is an establishment clause that is supposed to separate our religious beliefs which everyone is entitled to their own, but it is not established by the government, and that principal is very much under attack right now with at least five, if not six justices, but hearing that from justice alito's mouth basically just rips off any sort of pretense as to what is going on, and it really tells you very much how dishonest the dobbs decision was that reversed roe versus wade, this idea of we are sending it back to the states. that is not what is going on. this was part of a religious fervor that was animating what was going on, and you have justice alito really just saying it out loud, whether you like the idea of the tape recordings happening in the way they were done is neither here nor there, because you know, there was nothing that prevented him from responding in a way that justice roberts responded, which was entirely correct. >> the tape reveals the profound depths of the stupidity of samuel alito. we are out of time for this discussion. andrew weissmann, thank you very much for joining us tonight. coming up, our next guest needs either a very long introduction or no introduction. i will decide which one during a commercial break. rachel maddow joins us next. has grown me the best garden i have ever had. good soil, and you get good 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