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Morning Joe

attention as a nation? i mean, we have such a short attention span it seems in this country. i was thinking about this last night. i mean, you listen to people like glenn kirshner, and you have this analysis of the law. it is an education, listening to them. but how long do we pay attention to that? 50 years ago this week, bob holderman, former chief of staff to richard m. nixon, appeared before the watergate committee, led by sam irvin. it was nationally televised. the nation was glued to the hearings. they paid attention to those hearings, each and every day. the hearings made an incredible impact on the country, politically and culturally. the question i have now for you, glenn kirshner, is, do you think the trial, the upcoming trial of the president of the united

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Velshi

that is a very powerful lesson, do not play around with and pander with regard to pardons. that is a dangerous and wrong thing to do. and it didn't heal the country. because we never dealt with the underlying problems of a rogue president. a president who has no guardrails. a president who disobeys the law. we saw haven't done that with regard to what we found out with respect to trump. so it is wrong to focus on a pardon. let the criminal justice system work. maybe, who knows what will happen. maybe trump will plead guilty. maybe trump will say, you, know i did something wrong. maybe he won't be convicted. maybe the jury will acquit him. but the process works, he is not a king. we abolished the idea of a king in 1776. and we are not going back. the constitution is very clear about it. trump, he wants to get

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Velshi

united states, the congress, the president, and american people focusing on the serious problems we have, both at home, and abroad. and i was absolutely convinced then, as i am now, that if we had had this series, and indictment, a trial, a conviction, and anything else that transpired after that, that the attention of the president, congress, and american people would have been diverted from the problems that we have to solve. and that was the principal reason for my granting of the pardon. >> gerald ford said he parted richard nixon to spare the country from the embarrassment a distraction of a possible indictment, a trial, a conviction. he also spared an unrepentant ex president from justice. and now is donald trump faces felony charges, his sense of invincibility points to the idea of presidential impunity, planted with ford's pardon of nixon half a century ago. joining me now is the

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Velshi

8th, 1974, and the new republican president had decided to grant a pardon to his predecessor, richard nixon. it in his televised speech, ford spoke of the magnitude of his decision, he expressed a desire to move on from the watergate scandal that had consumed the country for more than two years. quote, it could go on, and on, and on, or someone must write the end to it. i have concluded, that only i could do that. and if i can, i must. and quote. while forced decision to pardon nixon may have effectively ended the watergate saga, it didn't provide a neat resolution, or sense of closure. there were still a lot of loose ends to tie up. the pardon preempted further action from the special prosecutor's office, and prevented that office from issuing an indictment against nixon, a possibility that remained very real at the time. one month earlier, a memo was submitted to watergate special prosecutor, leon jaworski, regarding the possible indictment of nixon. it was written by two of his aides, and they were blunt in their assessment of the case.

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Velshi

lovely to see the results of what happens if you give young queer people education, they have a shot, they have a shot at making it through those very turbulent teenage years. >> yeah. >> and a way that they're better adjusted than i got to be. >> those years are turbulent if you're not struggling with your sexuality. so thank you for this. thank you for writing the book, thank you for joining us here. >> thank, you and thank you for everything you do. it is an amazing thing. >> jude austin is the author of this book is gay, which is today's velshi banned book club entry. all right, straight ahead, the very latest on the indictment of donald trump. how the former president's defenders are debasing themselves with their defense of how it is affecting the 2024 campaign trail and the future of american democracy. another hour of velshi begins right now. >> right now. >> >> i'm ali velshi, let's cut right to the chase. former president and current

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Velshi

it's your verizon. >> this is a matter. that has suddenly become important again. nearly 50 years ago, president gerald ford made the decision to pardon president richard nixon before investigations into nixon's conduct were complete. it was not a popular decision at the time. among the majority of americans who did not think richard nixon should've been pardoned, was a young congresswoman by the name of elizabeth holtzman. but unlike most other americans, who disagreed with ford's decision, holtzman was able to press him on it directly, about a month after he issued the pardon, in front of the house judiciary subcommittee, and the country. >> mr. ford, you have stated that theory on which you've pardoned richard nixon was that he has suffered enough. and i, i'm interested in that theory. because the logical consequence

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Velshi

public opinion has flipped, with the majority of americans now looking favorably upon ford's decision. but it demands a reexamination in light of donald trump's historic federal indictment. and the prospect of more to come. ford pardon of nixon was a bandage for a wound that required sutures. trump has reopened that wound. it, it's debatable whether a man as shameless as richard nixon, like donald trump himself, would have been humbled by the threat of a possible conviction. but maybe a ford had let the process play out, nixon would've been made an example, and donald trump would not now be under the notion that presidents get special treatment under the law. maybe nixon himself could've been convinced that there are limits to presidential powers, and maybe when he sat down for an interview with the british journalist, david frost, several years later, after watergate, in 1977, nixon wouldn't have professed his belief that quote, when the president doesn't, that means it's not illegal. maybe one of nixon successors would not have been brazen enough to hoard classified

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Velshi

and not the problems of the country, i mean the fact of the matter is he set a terrible example. he short circuited the process of justice, and he created, for the country, a sense of a dual system of justice. his underlings were -- they were then being prosecuted, and they were going to be sent to jail. but nixon, who did the same things, and worked with them, and ordered, he gave the orders, he would be exempt? so the highest and mightiest goes free? but the others don't? think about the same thing with regard to former president trump. there are people right now sitting in jail for doing exactly what trump did, in fact nothing a serious. because they didn't conceal, and obstruct the effort to obtain the classified information. they didn't lie about it, they didn't try to conceal, and hide. and they're sitting in jail

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Velshi

what argument are we gonna tell the american people? a president who does the same thing as any other person, those other people can't go to jail, but somehow our president is exempt,? that's wrong. it sets an example of impunity, and it creates the example of donald trump, who thought he was above the law, and he still thinks he's above the law. i mean, just in my mind he thinks he can be classified document. >> he also says he's entitled to the document. he misread statutes. the indictment, 45 pages long, it's actually not that hard to read. it's pretty straightforward as to what it alleges. i am puzzled as to why so many people are having trouble with this thing. i'm just going through a list of presidential candidates, those who have said that they will process possibly pardon trump if elected. -- nikki haley is apparently a soft yes, even though she says he was incredibly reckless with our national security. larry elder is a yes, mike

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Velshi

of that is that somebody who resigns in the face of virtually certain impeachment, or somebody who is impeached should not be punished, because the impeachment, or the resignation is punishment enough. i wondered whether anybody had brought to your attention the fact that the constitution specifically set states that even though somebody is impeached, that person shall, nonetheless, be liable to punishment according to law. >> mrs. holtzman, i was fully cognizant of the fact that the president upon resignation was accountable for any criminal charges. but i would like to say, that's the reason i gave the pardon, was not as to mr. nixon himself. i repeat, and i repeat with emphasis, the purpose of the pardon was to try and get the

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