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will lead us to anywhere. the fact that vivian was killed, does it help now that we kill 1,000 vivians in gaza? does it help to anyone? one of the most recurrent messages in your columns in haaretz since october 7th and since the israeli military operation was launched has been this increased alarm you seem to feel at the dehumanisation of palestinians by the mass of israelis, and you seem to see a total lack of empathy. but don't you exaggerate when you say, as you've said recently, that israel, quote, "is going mad. mccarthyism and fascism reign." you are...you are devaluing what israel is, are you not? no, stephen, because i see the phenomena and i always know how it starts and you never know how it goes on. and the beginning is very, very worrying because people
a third, a fourth, "because we have the determination, the resolve "and the capabilities. " you're just saying, "oh, you know what? "we'lljust ignore that. that's just rhetoric. "we won't take that seriously." and stephen, do you think if we continue now and kill another 20,000 people in gaza and destroy the left, the left of what's left in gaza, then this will not happen? you really think that we can avoid everything and prevent everything and retaliated? no. there are limits to what we can do by power, by force. and we reached this point and now it's time to try something else. first of all, negotiation about the hostages. and, yes, we are facing a very complicated reality. i don't ever pretend in which in two minutes we will solve everything. but i know one thing. continuing this war will not solve anything, and more and more people realise it. so let's stop it for a while. let's sit down and, first
it's such a pleasure to be back in hardtalk with you, stephen. well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. let's begin with a very basic fact — you are one of your own israeli government's fiercest critics. you have been for a long time. you've certainly been an arch critic of the israeli military strategy in gaza. given all of that, i just wonder how you feel sitting in tel aviv watching the international court ofjustice consider the case of genocide filed against israel. i was watching it with a lot of sadness, depression and also a sense of shame, i must tell you. you know, my parents came here as refugees, really the ashes of the biggest genocide in history. and here, 80, 90 years later, israel is accused for genocide.
where are we reaching it? and above all, stephen, the role of the media. i cannot ignore this, because this time the israeli media play the role that i never saw before. i mean, we were always criticising the russian media, covering the war in ukraine. "oh, look how they're covering the war in ukraine. "what a joke." we are much worse because we are doing it voluntarily. you cannot see any image of gaza in israeli tv and israeli newspapers. hardly see an image. israelis are not exposed to anything of the... nothing of the suffer... but... ..of the starvation, of the uprooted people. nothing. this is a democracy, when you don't show the truth? you talked earlier about empathy and putting yourself in other people's shoes. i'm now trying to put myself in your shoes. for you as a commentator who wants to influence opinion, shouldn't you try to reach israelis in a way that shows more empathy for them? for example, you still seem
who criticise it. that's really shameful. could it be that there is something about israel, something about the jewish state which the international community feels moved to act upon right now? i'm just very aware, as indeed are many israelis, that the united states military intervention in iraq cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives, as far as we know. and we can point to many other military actions in the last 50 years which have cost tens, hundreds of thousands of lives. and yet here we are with the international court ofjustice taking this historic proceeding against the jewish state. does that strike you in some ways as questionable? stephen, israel was always judged on different criteria. we have to admit it, but it goes both ways. it goes for the good and for the bad. israel feels and is part of the west.
so many people say now, people who were quite supporting my views say now, "no, no, no, afterthe 7th, that's the end. "we cannot accept them. we cannot forgive them. "and we don't want to hear about their. . .their suffer." and one, if i may say so, gideon, one reason for that is some of the staunchest supporters of coexistence who reached out to palestinian communities, both in gaza, in the west bank, were murdered on october 7th. thinking of the canadian israeli vivian silver, who spent most of her adult life working for peace, murdered by hamas. did that not make any difference to you and your thinking? it affected my thinking. like any victim of the attack in october, would it be a peacenik or a right—winger, both shouldn't have been slaughtered the way they were slaughtered. and still i ask, does one attack really change all our values and all the things we in the left, or what is left of the left, that we believed in all our lives? and you know what, stephen, i want to ask you another
the israeli military operation was launched has been this increased alarm you seem to feel at the dehumanisation of palestinians by the mass of israelis, and you seem to see a total lack of empathy. but don't you exaggerate when you say, as you've said recently, that israel, quote, "is going mad. "mccarthyism and fascism reign." you are...you are devaluing what israel is, are you not? no, stephen, because i see the phenomena and i always know how it starts and you never know how it goes on. and the beginning is very, very worrying because people were arrested for demonstrations. people. . .you say that we don't feel empathy. it's almost forbidden to express empathy with gaza. if you are an arab israeli citizen,
we have to realise that there are certain things which are achievable and certain things which are unachievable in any condition. there are things which are unacceptable, also. killing this mass of children is unacceptable in any condition. now, coming back to the question, i think we punished gaza enough. i think we punished hamas enough. i think we have to do anything possible to release the hostages and we should now stop this war. it doesn't lead to any good place, neither for israel nor for the palestinians, by the way, and... so when ghazi hamad, a senior hamas official in beirut, just a couple of months ago says, "the al—aqsa flood 0peration" — their name for what they did on october 7th — "is just the first. "there will be a second, a third, a fourth, "because we have the determination, the resolve "and the capabilities." you're just saying, "oh, you know what? "we'lljust ignore that. "that's just rhetoric. "we won't take that seriously." and stephen, do you think
we are something else. yes, stephen, there is a special sentiment out of there is a special sentiment out of the jewish people there is a special sentiment out of thejewish people about israel. the story of israel is a very unique one, you cannot compare it to any other country and still, nothing will make it easier for me and for any man of conscious, any person of conscious, what is going on in gaza. nothing of those things about the special case of israel, the special history of israel, obviously the barbaric attack on them. nothing of this should be forgotten. by the end of the day, what is happening now in gazais of the day, what is happening now in gaza is unforgivable and all of those things are very strong and powerful. they don't do anything to affect on the ground and by the time you and me are talking now, another child is being killed for nothing. we have seen in the past 2a hours is israel's prime minister, out and say
to palestinian communities, both in gaza, in the west bank, were murdered on october 7th. thinking of the canadian israeli vivian silver, who spent most of her adult life working for peace, murdered by hamas. did that not make any difference to you and your thinking? it affected my thinking. like any victim of the attack in october, would it be a peacenik or a right—winger, both shouldn't have been slaughtered the way they were slaughtered. and still i ask, does one attack really change all our values and all the things we in the left, or what is left of the left, that we believed in all our lives? and you know what, stephen, i want to ask you another question. we are so furious after the 7th and we change our minds and we are not ready for any empathy or mercy on the people of gaza. now, imagine yourself a palestinian