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illegally jerrymander districts that we fairly won. as well as the unconstitutional overreach that we saw at the national level in 2020. >> joining us the former chief of staff of the department of homeland security in the trump administration miles taylor. claire is still here as well. thank you for being here. >> miles, when you first came out first anonymously and then publicly against donald trump, there were two positions that those works in the administration could have taken. one is to remain neutralish and one to say this is wrong headed as you did. elise stefanik did the opposite, he was a middle of the road republican who now says relatively crazy things on a several times a day basis. >> yeah, you know, ali, look, i'll be the first to say that i made plenty of mistakes in the process. and i think a lot of us who served in that era look back and

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around again. coming up next, donald trump loyalist elise stefanik is staying out loud what she's been tap dancing around for years she will say anything factually unclear just to stay in donald trump's good graces. we'll explain that, next. ain tht

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trump that a public attack on pence was not what, quote, what we need, but it true, trump responded, sources told abc news. tell me about that, we're not arguing what trump knew or didn't know, but the idea that, as carol says those around him trying to encourage him to do the right thing and he's actively doing the wrong thing? >> yeah, and we're getting within the shadow, we'll see what happens at the d.c. circuit court of appeal, in the shadow of the trial. so i again want to think of this in the prism, through the proof, that jack smith will present to the jury. the gradation point, it comes down to who is telling the jury what. when you get a guy scavino, an absolute confirmed loyalist, his whole life owes everything to donald trump, and when people like him are giving up these details it's all the more powerful. one rich point that we didn't know in today, he's the guy in trump's immunity papers, he

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reported in our book, ivanka trump repeatedly going down trying to get her father to take some sort of action, and ultimately, succeeding because he takes after multiple and unsuccessful tries, he tapes a recording to his viewers, later in the afternoon, saying they should stand down. although he thanks them and tells them that they're great people. every single individual who came in contact with the president that day, his most close advisers, his tightest people, his daughter, wanted him to do something. and he resisted. resisted doing something, because, as we all know, as he told us when we went to interview donald trump in april of 2021, i wanted what the rioters wanted. i wanted what they wanted, which was to stop this election from being affirmed. >> let me ask you about that, harry, the gradations, the not

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talk about things in february, but february 8, that's when the supreme court is going to hear the argument -- or review the decision about the colorado supreme court's decision to say that donald trump isn't qualified. colorado and maine have made similar decisions but in both cases they say the decisions are staid in the supreme court chimes in. >> that's right. and the ballots in colorado will continue to exist that way unless and until the court says differently. colorado has its primary on march 5 that is the day after the election interference case where he's advancing those immunity cases is staid but otherwise scheduled to go forward. all of these things are starting to converge on themselves, ali. if you're having trouble keeping it straight in your head, you're not alone, i am, too. that's because the entire calendar is blanketed with trump legal proceedings and the ways in which they all interact with one another. i personally don't think that

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mccain who tweeted this about her father. "my dad was an american hero, an icon, a patriot that will be remembered through history. i cannot buy a bagel without someone approaching me about how much they loved and miss him. trump is a blank election denying huckster whose own wife won't campaign with him." joining our conversation is the retired united states marine corps lieutenant colonel and co-founder of operation saving democracy, amy mcgrath. mara gay is also back with us. thanks to both of you for being with us. colonel mcgrath, i just want to get your reaction first of all. i was saying to mara in the commercial break i don't know who asks donald trump to do this, what he thinks he gets from these random musings about military people and john mccain. but he does it a lot. >> he does. i think he has a personal vendetta against john mccain. i mean, even in death. why? well, john mccain is a thousand times the man that donald trump is in terms of honor, character

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about. some people who are getting kind of fed up with the changes that they've seen in america. we have a former president, donald trump, who speaks the language of fascism increasingly. and we talk about it. and there are reasonable people who will say to me or probably v probably to all of us on this panel you people need to stop having your hair on fire about fascism, that's an exaggeration. but it's not. and how do you marry what matt said with the reality that most dictatorial regimes, most authorityians don't take over by revolution, they take over because people give up their rights? >> this is what hannah arent wrote about, the banality of evil. how we tumble into totalitarian fascist regimes, through our everyday choices, everyday actions. so we are obviously and rightly so attuned to the loud racists, the people who are declaring the ugliest things out of their mouths. but those folks who are silent in their complicity are the ones who actually make it all happen.

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but ali, i want to hone in to what you pointed to in that interview. the comments she made about not certifying the election or not quitting to certify is the tremor of an earthquake that could cause a tsunami after the election. they are already laying the groundwork maybe they don't have to certify a joe biden win if biden wins, that's extremely dangerous for democracy and we're not ready for it. >> claire, you remember in the 2020 election when friendly reporters would ask donald trump if he would accept the results of the election. he started laying the groundwork months ahead that he would not and now, elise stefanik is doing this. what do you make of why? elise stefanik actually was an important person in the republican party, till is but there are a lot of important people in the republican party who either remained republicans or who have left. who have said we will be conservatives and republicans in the future, but this man is

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>> claire mccaskill, if he didn't have these things that donald trump claims are sort of legal obligations but lisa has said are not, he'd still have a really busy week. he's not participating in the debates for the iowa caucus of which he's leading by high double digits but he's going to do his counterprogramming on fox and then he's got the iowa caucus on monday. what do you make of the political side of this week? >> yeah, i think what lisa says is really important for us to remember. donald trump is attending these events not because he needs to, not because he has to, not because it's in his legal best interests, but because he wants the coverage this week, leading up to iowa, to be all about his narrative that he is a victim of government weaponization against him. that, you know, they're trying to keep me out of office. they're trying to scope me from fighting for you. he is looking at the iowa caucuses as his moment to

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