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trump that a public attack on pence was not what, quote, what we need, but it true, trump responded, sources told abc news. tell me about that, we're not arguing what trump knew or didn't know, but the idea that, as carol says those around him trying to encourage him to do the right thing and he's actively doing the wrong thing? >> yeah, and we're getting within the shadow, we'll see what happens at the d.c. circuit court of appeal, in the shadow of the trial. so i again want to think of this in the prism, through the proof, that jack smith will present to the jury. the gradation point, it comes down to who is telling the jury what. when you get a guy scavino, an absolute confirmed loyalist, his whole life owes everything to donald trump, and when people like him are giving up these details it's all the more powerful. one rich point that we didn't know in today, he's the guy in trump's immunity papers, he

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about the defense secretary than about any other cabinet member, in that the defense secretary has specific powers and authorities that many of us who watch movies think only the president has. >> that's right. i mean, look, the national command authority and the connective tissue between the president of the united states and the u.s. troops and the u.s. nuclear arsenal and all of the activities that are undertaken in the defense department affect the united states is really different than any other department and agency. so it's the one place in government, above all others, outside of the white house, where day-to-day tracking of senior officials is actually really important. and make no mistake, adversaries know that around holidays and other times when people go on vacation, that's the time to strike. that's the time to do something to catch people off guard. and the fact that this took place over a holiday and happened gives extra concern. it's when, you know, folks, again, tend to be a little less vigilant. that's why at dod, above all other agencies, there is really

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but you take scavino and put him on the stand, anybody who had that attitude, of course, would have been mortified and done anything to stop it. not rejoice and say who will cares about pence, et cetera. while he's at peace with what we know, it's very, very powerful evidence if you look at it through the prism of what jack smith has to prove at trial. it's pretty much a nail in the coffin of trump's intent. >> carol, i just want to the remind people, cassidy hutchinson talking about what happened when mark meadows, her boss, found out that people are calling for mike pence to be hanged. and what the response was. let's just play that. >> i remember saying about, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. and mark had responded something to the effect, you heard him, he

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about. some people who are getting kind of fed up with the changes that they've seen in america. we have a former president, donald trump, who speaks the language of fascism increasingly. and we talk about it. and there are reasonable people who will say to me or probably v probably to all of us on this panel you people need to stop having your hair on fire about fascism, that's an exaggeration. but it's not. and how do you marry what matt said with the reality that most dictatorial regimes, most authorityians don't take over by revolution, they take over because people give up their rights? >> this is what hannah arent wrote about, the banality of evil. how we tumble into totalitarian fascist regimes, through our everyday choices, everyday actions. so we are obviously and rightly so attuned to the loud racists, the people who are declaring the ugliest things out of their mouths. but those folks who are silent in their complicity are the ones who actually make it all happen.

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runway and ongoi fund raiser. the flowing tuesday, january 16th, that's the big question for me. that's the second e. jean carroll trial as you noted. tuesday should start with jury selection. whether he shows up or not is an open question, but as you and i were discussing before the segment began, federal court is a really different place than state court. and i don't believe that former president trump will have the latitude to turn that courthouse into the sort of circus-like atmosphere that he's succeeded in with respect to the civil fraud trial. >> and because if he wanted to make an appearance, he'd have to set it up, he'd have to be a stage somewhere, and he'd have to tell people -- >> i can't imagine that the security committee of the southern district of new york will allow former president trump to hold any sort of press availability within the confines of that courthouse. if he wants to do it, he does it outside. he'll have to arrange that between the secret service and new york police department, et cetera. but it's not going to happen on their watch in that building.

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definitively become the nominee. if he dominates in iowa, i don't care if nikki haley has moment item, if he dominates in iowa, she would have to win new hampshire and win south carolina, and there isn't any polling that indicates she's in the position to do that. so we're going to talk more about these events if he's there, and he knows that. this is all political strategy at this point. it has nothing to do with his legal peril. it has everything to do with him wanting to become president. you know what the arguments that he's making in front of these federal judges, if he's president, it all goes away. he waves a wand and there's no more federal prosecution against him. no more convictions against him. he can't fix georgia, because a president can't fix state charges but these are all about his campaign. he sees them as essential campaign stops having nothing to do with legalities. >> it's a hard week, lisa, to

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carol leonnig, thank you. and harry. claire is going to stick around because we haven't seen her for a while. when we come back, trump's case tomorrow on the case of presidential immunity is not the only time we'll see the president this week he'll be attending several courtrooms adding more grist to the campaign. plus, one of the parties in washington speaking over the weekend refused to say whether she would certify the 2024 election results while maintaining her support for those who chose democracy over action. elise stefanik sounding like he's laying the groundwork for the platform and perhaps sending in the audition tape for donald trump's pick for v.p. and then delivering a big address on the poise than is white supremacy in america. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. : white ho" continues after this her2-negative, node-positive,

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don't know even just basic facts about our history. it seems like maybe we need to go there. >> yeah. surprising but yeah, i think we do. maybe not surprising, eddie glaude. the grievance politics of donald trump and the republican party are becoming intertwined with this white supremacy issue. much in the way as president biden acknowledged today that occurred after the civil war with the lost cause narrative gaining ground. there's this weird grievance narrative tied to white people and their history in this country that is taking deep root within the republican party at the moment. >> you know, ali, that's absolutely right. the president actually called it a second lost cause. and in that sense there's this narrative, this effort to rewrite the story of the united states, to reject our efforts to actually achieve a genuinely multiracial democracy and tell ourselves a story that affirms

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only the people involved, but the number of ways in which trump was asked to rein this back. i want to quote more from this abc news reporthi says after unsuccessfully trying for up to 20 minutes to per trump trump to release some sort of calming statement, scavino and others walked out of the dining room leaving trump alone, sources said. that's when according to sources trump posted a message on his twitter account saying that pence, quote, didt have the courage to do what shod have been done, end quote. trump's aides told investigators they were shocked by t post. aside from p, scavino was the o other person with access to trump's twitter account and he was often the one posting messages to . so when theessage about pence popped up, cipollone and other white house attorney racedo findscavino, demanding to know why he would post that in the midst of a precarious situation. some of trump's aides returned to the dinele room to explain to

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>> folks like you and i should push back. >> got it. >> particularly when it comes to tomorrow, these things, tomorrow when he shows up in the immunity claims he will be there as a spectator. to the point that he makes political hay outside of the courtroom is his role entirely. it's an argument where lawyers for jack smith and former president trump will face a battery of questions before a three-judge panel in federal appeals court in d.c. on thursday, similarly, we've got final or closing arguments in the new york civil fraud trial brought by the new york attorney general. again, former president trump has no role there. it's a series of arguments that will be made to the judge that was a nonjury trial. presumably, when it's over or on breaks we can expect the former president to do what he's done all along in that case. >> right. >> which is to face cameras in the courtroom hallway and turn that into somewhere between a

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