public gatherings of more than two people were banned and you had to stay two metres away from people you did not live with. the police could find you if you did not follow the rules. the inquiry will also hear from priti patel, who was home secretary during the period and the human rights group liberty. the home secretary during the pandemic and lockdown lobbied for stricter border controls in the early stages of the pandemic in an attempt to prevent the virus reaching the uk but she was overruled. despite criticism to the way the police enforced lockdown rules she defended her approach during her time rules she defended her approach during hertime in rules she defended her approach during her time in office. it you are watching bbc news and we are now going hoping to go live soon to the covid inquiry in london. edible be speaking on our healing from priti patel, home secretary during the pandemic as well as martin hewitt who was chair of the national police chiefs' council, will take you live now to those pictures. that is martin hewitt giving his evidence to the inquiry. you martin hewitt giving his evidence to the inuui . ., ~' , martin hewitt giving his evidence to theinaui . ., ~' , the inquiry. you kindly provided the inuui the inquiry. you kindly provided the inquiry with — the inquiry. you kindly provided the inquiry with a _ the inquiry. you kindly provided the inquiry with a witness _ the inquiry. you kindly provided the inquiry with a witness statement. inquiry with a witness statement which will come on screen now, we see it as a statement headed a corporate witness statement on behalf of the national police chiefs' council that you made. it is. chiefs' councilthat you made. it is. if ou chiefs' councilthat you made. it is. if you look _ chiefs' councilthat you made. it is. if you look at _ chiefs' councilthat you made. it is. if you look at paragraph - chiefs' councilthat you made. it is. if you look at paragraph one, ou is. if you look at paragraph one, you exulain _ is. if you look at paragraph one, you exolain you _ is. if you look at paragraph one, you explain you regard - is. if you look at paragraph one, you explain you regard this - is. if you look at paragraph one, you explain you regard this as i is. if you look at paragraph one, - you explain you regard this as being a corporate witness statement. looking at paragraph two, we can see what you mean to convey by that term which is the information is drawn firstly from your own knowledge and experience but also on the basis of material provided by staff within the mpc c and other policing bodies. that is the basis on which the statement was drafted but with that in mind we do not need to go to it but on the final page there is a statement of truth indicating you believe on that basis the facts contained in the statement are true, does that remain the position. it does. a does that remain the position. it does- a few _ does that remain the position. it does. a few brief _ does that remain the position. it does. a few brief questions - does that remain the position. it| does. a few brief questions about our does. a few brief questions about your career _ does. a few brief questions about your career and _ does. a few brief questions about your career and it _ does. a few brief questions about your career and it is _ does. a few brief questions about your career and it is correct - does. a few brief questions about your career and it is correct that l your career and it is correct that your career and it is correct that you joined the police, kent police in 1993. ., . you joined the police, kent police in 1993-- you _ you joined the police, kent police in 1993.- you transferred | you joined the police, kent police i in 1993.- you transferred to in 1993. correct. you transferred to the metropolitan _ in 1993. correct. you transferred to the metropolitan police _ in 1993. correct. you transferred to the metropolitan police and - in 1993. correct. you transferred to the metropolitan police and 2005 l in 1993. correct. you transferred to i the metropolitan police and 2005 and remained with them and reached the rank of assistant commissioner. correct. in rank of assistant commissioner. correct. :: ' rank of assistant commissioner. correct. ::' , rank of assistant commissioner. correct. ii' , ., correct. in 2015 is it right that uber appointed _ correct. in 2015 is it right that uber appointed the _ correct. in 2015 is it right that uber appointed the vice-chairj correct. in 2015 is it right that l uber appointed the vice-chair of correct. in 2015 is it right that - uber appointed the vice-chair of the uber appointed the vice—chair of the national police council. that uber appointed the vice-chair of the national police council.— national police council. that is not a full-time — national police council. that is not a full-time role _ national police council. that is not a full-time role but _ national police council. that is not a full-time role but there - national police council. that is not a full-time role but there are - national police council. that is not a full-time role but there are two. a full—time role but there are two vice chairs — a full—time role but there are two vice chairs and supporting the full-time _ vice chairs and supporting the full—time chess i was one of those. you served — full—time chess i was one of those. you served in that capacity for four years until 2019, would it be correct you when doing a job at the metropolitan police and parallel to your role with the pcc. mr; metropolitan police and parallel to your role with the pcc.— metropolitan police and parallel to your role with the pcc. my main “0b was with the — your role with the pcc. my main “0b was with the meta- d your role with the pcc. my main “0b was with the meta- path i your role with the pcc. my main “0b was with the meta- path and i was with the meta— path and whispered as an aside i undertook the role _ whispered as an aside i undertook the role of— whispered as an aside i undertook the role of vice—chair. i was assistant _ the role of vice—chair. i was assistant commissioner on the management board during that period but from _ management board during that period but from 2014—19 was one of the assistant — but from 2014—19 was one of the assistant commissioners. in but from 2014-19 was one of the assistant commissioners. in 2019 uber appointed — assistant commissioners. in 2019 uber appointed as _ the chair of the npcc full—time and served in that role until this year and when you ceased and the spring of this year that you retire from the police force. in of this year that you retire from the police force.— of this year that you retire from the police force. in april, correct. it would be _ the police force. in april, correct. it would be apparent _ the police force. in april, correct. it would be apparent from - the police force. in april, correct. it would be apparent from the - the police force. in april, correct. i it would be apparent from the brief history that you were chair of the npcc for the entire period of the pandemic and that is the time period i will focus on in my questions today. you provide us with a fair amount of detail about the make—up and workings of the npcc and witness statement which we are grateful for and we have in writing, i will not go into too much detail now because as you also describe in the statement the npcc as so many other institutions had to act in a very exceptional way during the pandemic, is that correct?— exceptional way during the pandemic, is that correct? yes. some of the thins is that correct? yes. some of the thin . s we is that correct? yes. some of the things we will— is that correct? yes. some of the things we will discuss _ is that correct? yes. some of the things we will discuss today do not fall neatly into the type of work the npcc does at other times. {line fall neatly into the type of work the npcc does at other times. one of the npcc does at other times. one of the core rules — the npcc does at other times. one of the core rules is _ the npcc does at other times. one of the core rules is to _ the npcc does at other times. one of the core rules is to coordinate - the core rules is to coordinate nationat— the core rules is to coordinate national activity, every police service — national activity, every police service in _ national activity, every police service in the uk is a legally independent and the npcc brings together the interests of the chief officers _ together the interests of the chief officers and those organisations and when _ officers and those organisations and when there are issues which require national— when there are issues which require national coordination that is a row the npcc— national coordination that is a row the npcc undertakes but never look to the _ the npcc undertakes but never look to the scale of dealing with covid—19. to the scale of dealing with covid-19-_ to the scale of dealing with covid-19. �*, , , ., covid-19. let's pick up some of those points — covid-19. let's pick up some of those points you _ covid-19. let's pick up some of those points you have - covid-19. let's pick up some of those points you have made, . covid-19. let's pick up some of| those points you have made, we covid-19. let's pick up some of - those points you have made, we are looking at paragraph four, the npcc core function as as a national coordinating body representing all uk police forces and you mentioned the association of chief police officers which many of us will remember, the successor body to acpo. paragraph five, it is important to bear in mind that the npcc represents all uk police forces, we are a uk inquiry, we have had a number of issues relating to the other nations, scotland, wales and northern ireland, it is right that policing is a devolved matter in northern ireland and scotland but does it remain the position that those police forces are represented by part of the npcc. it is those police forces are represented by part of the npcc.— by part of the npcc. it is the role and both those _ by part of the npcc. it is the role and both those countries - by part of the npcc. it is the role and both those countries but - by part of the npcc. it is the role| and both those countries but they are fully _ and both those countries but they are fully participating members of npcc _ are fully participating members of npcc. ., ., ., . ., npcc. you have touched on the function in _ npcc. you have touched on the function in very _ npcc. you have touched on the function in very general- npcc. you have touched on the function in very general terms i npcc. you have touched on the l function in very general terms of npcc, but in summary is it fair to say it is one of a group of national bodies designed to provide national leadership and coordination to local police forces that all have operational independence. yes. and for resent operational independence. yes. and for present purposes, the npcc has as one of its rules producing national standards thematic policies and so on. covering a range of different policing matters. that is done in conjunction _ different policing matters. that is done in conjunction with - different policing matters. that is done in conjunction with the - different policing matters. that is i done in conjunction with the college of noticing _ done in conjunction with the college of policing which owns standards within _ of policing which owns standards within policing but works closely within policing but works closely with the — within policing but works closely with the npcc where we would be driving _ with the npcc where we would be driving will be felt those policies were _ driving will be felt those policies were required so it is a joint working _ were required so it is a joint working between the college of noticing — working between the college of policing and national police chiefs' councit _ policing and national police chiefs' council. fits policing and national police chiefs' council. �* . . policing and national police chiefs' council. �* , ., ., ., council. as at the role of the npcc to commission _ council. as at the role of the npcc to commission the _ council. as at the role of the npcc to commission the college - council. as at the role of the npcc to commission the college to - council. as at the role of the npcc to commission the college to workj council. as at the role of the npcc i to commission the college to work up policies? to commission the college to work up olicies? . . . to commission the college to work up olicies? ., , ., ., ., ._ to commission the college to work up olicies? ., , ., ., policies? that is a good way of describing _ policies? that is a good way of describing it _ policies? that is a good way of describing it so _ policies? that is a good way of describing it so npcc - policies? that is a good way of. describing it so npcc represents policies? that is a good way of- describing it so npcc represents the chief officers, they will be working and thinking about those issues most important _ and thinking about those issues most important for policing and when you want policies and particularly approved practice which defines how police _ approved practice which defines how police should do what we do then that would be what with the college of policing. do that would be what with the college of olicinr. .,, that would be what with the college of olicinr. . , that would be what with the college of olicin.. . , of policing. do those policies come back to the — of policing. do those policies come back to the npcc _ of policing. do those policies come back to the npcc to _ of policing. do those policies come back to the npcc to be _ of policing. do those policies come back to the npcc to be signed - of policing. do those policies come back to the npcc to be signed off. of policing. do those policies come | back to the npcc to be signed off on approved? the back to the npcc to be signed off on a- roved? ., . , ., ., ~ approved? the main decision-making bod within approved? the main decision-making body within npcc — approved? the main decision-making body within npcc and _ approved? the main decision-making body within npcc and policing - approved? the main decision-making body within npcc and policing is - approved? the main decision-making body within npcc and policing is the l body within npcc and policing is the chief constables council which brings— chief constables council which brings together the chief constable or commissioner for the individual forces _ or commissioner for the individual forces and — or commissioner for the individual forces and that as well as a body the service — forces and that as well as a body the service makes its key decisions, that process — the service makes its key decisions, that process is run by the national police _ that process is run by the national police juice — that process is run by the national police juice council and cheered by the chair— police juice council and cheered by the chair of— police juice council and cheered by the chair of npcc which was my role for 40 _ the chair of npcc which was my role for 40 years — the chair of npcc which was my role for 40 years. —— for years. the chair of npcc which was my role for40 years. —— foryears. —— the chair of npcc which was my role for 40 years. —— for years. —— four years _ for 40 years. -- for years. -- four ears. ~ ., ., .,. years. we have referred to the fact the individual _ years. we have referred to the fact the individual forces _ years. we have referred to the fact the individual forces have - the individual forces have operational independence and you emphasise in this part of your statement that the npcc cannot direct forces to act in any particular way.— direct forces to act in any particular way. direct forces to act in any articularwa . ., , . ., particular way. that is correct and a really important _ particular way. that is correct and a really important point, - particular way. that is correct and a really important point, the - particular way. that is correct and | a really important point, the npcc is not _ a really important point, the npcc is not a _ a really important point, the npcc is not a statutory body, it is an agreement— is not a statutory body, it is an agreement amongst all chief officers but in _ agreement amongst all chief officers but in each individual force area operational direction and control rests— operational direction and control rests with — operational direction and control rests with the chief constable and whatever — rests with the chief constable and whatever the political governance is on an _ whatever the political governance is on an individual police area that nray— on an individual police area that may he — on an individual police area that may he a — on an individual police area that may be a police and crime commissioner but i would day ultimately that rests with the chief constable. tr}r ultimately that rests with the chief constable. , ., , , ., ~ ., ultimately that rests with the chief constable. , ., , , n ., ., constable. try and speak to more slowly and _ constable. try and speak to more slowly and giving _ constable. try and speak to more slowly and giving us _ constable. try and speak to more slowly and giving us your- constable. try and speak to more | slowly and giving us your answers. you discuss and a little detail and your statement the arrangements and procedures that apply where a particular police force or chief constable decides not to follow the guidance of the npcc on the chief constable of the council perhaps, can i ask you whether that is of much relevance to us, what we will explore as the high level guidance the npcc college provided to police forces during the pandemic in particular in the context of enforcing covid regulations, was that in fact any deliberate divergence amongst police forces from that guidance? he. divergence amongst police forces from that guidance?— divergence amongst police forces from that guidance? no, that fails to the ability _ from that guidance? no, that fails to the ability for— from that guidance? no, that fails to the ability for a _ from that guidance? no, that fails to the ability for a chief— from that guidance? no, that fails to the ability for a chief constable | to the ability for a chief constable to the ability for a chief constable to derogate from a decision taken at council, _ to derogate from a decision taken at council, in _ to derogate from a decision taken at council, in normal circumstances was very reat— council, in normal circumstances was very real in _ council, in normal circumstances was very real in relation to covid i do not think— very real in relation to covid i do not think it — very real in relation to covid i do not think it is relevant for the purposes— not think it is relevant for the purposes of what the inquiry is seeking — purposes of what the inquiry is seeking to understand. let�*s purposes of what the inquiry is seeking to understand. let's move on to a bit more — seeking to understand. let's move on to a bit more detail _ seeking to understand. let's move on to a bit more detail about _ seeking to understand. let's move on to a bit more detail about precisely i to a bit more detail about precisely what the npcc did during the pandemic, for these purposes f.c. can go to page eight of your statement, paragraph 31. you make the point the pandemic posed a wide—ranging of challenges in every aspect of private and public life and you go on to say it was no different from the police, the pandemic affected every part of our work and every part of the service, was that the position?— was that the position? absolutely, it was very clear _ was that the position? absolutely, it was very clear there _ was that the position? absolutely, it was very clear there would - was that the position? absolutely, it was very clear there would be i was that the position? absolutely, it was very clear there would be a | it was very clear there would be a policing _ it was very clear there would be a policing role in helping the country respond _ policing role in helping the country respond to — policing role in helping the country respond to covid—19 but before that, during _ respond to covid—19 but before that, during and _ respond to covid—19 but before that, during and after normal policing activity — during and after normal policing activity was still carrying on to one extent or another so for the service — one extent or another so for the service it — one extent or another so for the service it was a question of how be balanced _ service it was a question of how be balanced are normal duties and other responsibilities with whatever came as a result — responsibilities with whatever came as a result of policing the pandemic. as a result of policing the pandemic-— as a result of policing the andemic. ~ , ., pandemic. we can easily imagine normal day-to-day _ pandemic. we can easily imagine normal day-to-day duties - pandemic. we can easily imagine normal day-to-day duties of - pandemic. we can easily imagine normal day-to-day duties of the | normal day—to—day duties of the police, prevention and detection of crime, the pandemic affected the way in which those duties were conducted at every level. in which those duties were conducted at every level-— at every level. every single activity policing _ at every level. every single activity policing undertook| at every level. every single - activity policing undertook would be to some _ activity policing undertook would be to some extent different in the light— to some extent different in the light of— to some extent different in the light of whatever we needed to do and relation to the pandemic. you also refer to _ and relation to the pandemic. you also refer to a _ and relation to the pandemic. ti’f7l. also refer to a extra category of concerns about protecting the health and safety of police officers and no doubt people with whom the cayman to contact from catching covid during that period. contact from catching covid during that eriod. ., contact from catching covid during that period-— that period. from the outset it would be clear— that period. from the outset it would be clear that _ that period. from the outset it would be clear that normal - that period. from the outset it - would be clear that normal policing to one _ would be clear that normal policing to one extent or another would continue — to one extent or another would continue throughout however the country _ continue throughout however the country responded so we had to be thinking _ country responded so we had to be thinking very carefully about how we would _ thinking very carefully about how we would allow that to happen safely for staff— would allow that to happen safely for staff but also for the people that were interacting with and is one chief— that were interacting with and is one chief constable put it in an early— one chief constable put it in an early discussion, you cannot police at a tribute — early discussion, you cannot police at a tribute of distance, it is really— at a tribute of distance, it is really challenging to do the work we need to— really challenging to do the work we need to and the context of a pandemic. sill need to and the context of a pandemic-— need to and the context of a andemic. �* ., ., , ,., pandemic. all that was something olice pandemic. all that was something police forces _ pandemic. all that was something police forces and _ pandemic. all that was something police forces and the _ pandemic. all that was something police forces and the npcc- pandemic. all that was something police forces and the npcc had . pandemic. all that was something police forces and the npcc had to | police forces and the npcc had to think about but beyond that and this takes us to where i will be focusing, there was also the question of the duties of the police as they became to enforce the regulations and other laws around the response. in the same paragraph we are looking at, it is in that context that you say in addition the provisions of the coronavirus act and related regulations led the police service and to public health policing which was largely uncharted territory. can you expand on that. policing traditionally would be in relation — policing traditionally would be in relation to dealing with crime and criminality— relation to dealing with crime and criminality and safety in that sense and we _ criminality and safety in that sense and we did — criminality and safety in that sense and we did not have experience of policing _ and we did not have experience of policing in — and we did not have experience of policing in this regard and i think it is important to make the point about— it is important to make the point about the — it is important to make the point about the use of the want enforcement, what you are really talking _ enforcement, what you are really talking about is trying to achieve compliance with whatever the regulations well there to keep people — regulations well there to keep people safe, to reduce transmission of the _ people safe, to reduce transmission of the virus — people safe, to reduce transmission of the virus and our rule was to try and achieve — of the virus and our rule was to try and achieve compliance with those regulations. it was a very new area, it was— regulations. it was a very new area, it was evident as we were thinking about— it was evident as we were thinking about how— it was evident as we were thinking about how we would respond to this that that _ about how we would respond to this that that would clash with our normal— that that would clash with our normal way of operating as the police — normal way of operating as the police service in this country and i particularly — police service in this country and i particularly recall being struck by the images in italy where you were seeing _ the images in italy where you were seeing villages and towns literally encircled — seeing villages and towns literally encircled by armed police stopping people _ encircled by armed police stopping people going in and out so we were focused _ people going in and out so we were focused on — people going in and out so we were focused on how to conduct policing support _ focused on how to conduct policing support and a health crisis that is consistent— support and a health crisis that is consistent with the way we police ordinarily — consistent with the way we police ordinarily and those were the questions we will wrestling with as be prepared to deal with whatever came _ be prepared to deal with whatever came. .., be prepared to deal with whatever came. ., _, , be prepared to deal with whatever came. ., , came. one can obviously see this was a new territory _ came. one can obviously see this was a new territory entirely _ came. one can obviously see this was a new territory entirely but _ came. one can obviously see this was a new territory entirely but i - came. one can obviously see this was a new territory entirely but i want - a new territory entirely but i want to place you on quite how different it was. as perhaps we will come to see, would it be fair to say many of the principles, much of the training that police already had in public order matters, community policing were not that far distant from the type of approach needed. flit were not that far distant from the type of approach needed. of course we drew throughout _ type of approach needed. of course we drew throughout the _ type of approach needed. of course we drew throughout the pandemic l type of approach needed. of course l we drew throughout the pandemic on the skills— we drew throughout the pandemic on the skills we already had and the way we _ the skills we already had and the way we operated in ordinary circumstances, the difference was the fight _ circumstances, the difference was the fight be but now, and the first instance _ the fight be but now, and the first instance any of those things you referred — instance any of those things you referred to where now having to happen — referred to where now having to happen and a very different context where _ happen and a very different context where the _ happen and a very different context where the individuals we were dealing — where the individuals we were dealing with may or may not have been _ dealing with may or may not have been carrying the virus. our officers _ been carrying the virus. our officers were having to consider their— officers were having to consider their own — officers were having to consider their own safety and potentially they could be carrying the virus so you suddenly have a very different dimension — you suddenly have a very different dimension but the other area that perhaps— dimension but the other area that perhaps what was in my mind when we talked _ perhaps what was in my mind when we talked about uncharted territory was looking _ talked about uncharted territory was looking at _ talked about uncharted territory was looking at the other countries where the virus _ looking at the other countries where the virus had spread ahead of this country _ the virus had spread ahead of this country. you could see the kind of measures — country. you could see the kind of measures being taken that as far as i am away— measures being taken that as far as i am away in — measures being taken that as far as i am away in policing terms nothing like that— i am away in policing terms nothing like that had happened since world war it _ like that had happened since world war it so— like that had happened since world war ii so be put in positions where we move _ war ii so be put in positions where we move be — war ii so be put in positions where we move be imposing on liberty and movement— we move be imposing on liberty and movement and lives in a way that was totally— movement and lives in a way that was totally out _ movement and lives in a way that was totally out of our experience at that point. thank you and it is here and i_ that point. thank you and it is here and i mentioned earlier, you refer to what— and i mentioned earlier, you refer to what you — and i mentioned earlier, you refer to what you were facing as unprecedented.— to what you were facing as unprecedented. calling for an unprecedented _ unprecedented. calling for an unprecedented response - unprecedented. calling for an unprecedented response and| unprecedented. calling for an i unprecedented response and the response which the npcc gave to the situation you named and you emphasised with any statement and something we have discussed that the npc c has no operational function and the operational function and the operation provided guidance but no more than that to the individual police forces. ibis more than that to the individual police forces.— more than that to the individual police forces. as well as guidance erha -s police forces. as well as guidance perhaps the _ police forces. as well as guidance perhaps the way _ police forces. as well as guidance perhaps the way i _ police forces. as well as guidance perhaps the way i would - police forces. as well as guidance perhaps the way i would describe | police forces. as well as guidance l perhaps the way i would describe it as coordination at a national level and was _ as coordination at a national level and was very apparent as we were watching _ and was very apparent as we were watching coronavirus spread west that it _ watching coronavirus spread west that it would be a critical incident unlike _ that it would be a critical incident unlike any— that it would be a critical incident unlike any i had dealt with, some real differences i think an important affecting every square metre _ important affecting every square metre of — important affecting every square metre of the uk which is unusual, we had no _ metre of the uk which is unusual, we had no sense — metre of the uk which is unusual, we had no sense of the timeline of how lon- had no sense of the timeline of how long this _ had no sense of the timeline of how long this operation would have to run and _ long this operation would have to run and perhaps most importantly it was a _ run and perhaps most importantly it was a critical incident that was going — was a critical incident that was going to — was a critical incident that was going to engage every part of government. every part of government would _ government. every part of government would have — government. every part of government would have to work and on that basis iti'ust _ would have to work and on that basis itjust seemed to me we needed to have a _ itjust seemed to me we needed to have a coordinated response from the police _ have a coordinated response from the police service across organisations working _ police service across organisations working into and with government so we could _ working into and with government so we could provide a response accordingly. we could provide a response accordingly-— we could provide a response accordinrl . , , , , accordingly. this may be slightly academic, accordingly. this may be slightly academic. you — accordingly. this may be slightly academic, you will _ accordingly. this may be slightly academic, you will cheer- accordingly. this may be slightly academic, you will cheer of - accordingly. this may be slightly academic, you will cheer of the i accordingly. this may be slightly - academic, you will cheer of the npcc at this time, that you have a designated role in operation talla was it simply in your practice as rural as cheer you heavily involved. i had a designated role, i was the gold commander for operation talla, i pulled _ gold commander for operation talla, i pulled all _ gold commander for operation talla, i pulled all the chief constables together, in early march and had the discussion— together, in early march and had the discussion to say this will require national— discussion to say this will require national coordination. as i said in my statement we had undertaken a similar— my statement we had undertaken a similar process the previous december during the general election in terms _ december during the general election in terms of _ december during the general election in terms of providing candidate security— in terms of providing candidate security because the concerns and then so— security because the concerns and then so i— security because the concerns and then so i pulled the cheese together and said _ then so i pulled the cheese together and said we need to do this and build _ and said we need to do this and build on — and said we need to do this and build on it— and said we need to do this and build on it from the centre and i would _ build on it from the centre and i would take _ build on it from the centre and i would take the gold rule. it build on it from the centre and i would take the gold rule. a couple of further points _ would take the gold rule. a couple of further points about _ would take the gold rule. a couple of further points about the - would take the gold rule. a couple of further points about the way - would take the gold rule. a couple | of further points about the way the operation what, looking at paragraph 34, we talked already about the communication between forces encouraging cooperation but you also refer to liaison with the government which was another rule operation talla played, can you expand on that. ., , ~' , talla played, can you expand on that. ., , ~ , ., that. one of my key rose three covid was the chief — that. one of my key rose three covid was the chief officer _ that. one of my key rose three covid was the chief officer to _ that. one of my key rose three covid was the chief officer to the _ that. one of my key rose three covid was the chief officer to the home - was the chief officer to the home office _ was the chief officer to the home office and — was the chief officer to the home office and working with the home secretary — office and working with the home secretary and senior officials and it was— secretary and senior officials and it was evident we would need to be any position to work as effectively as possible with government as the pandemic— as possible with government as the pandemic and measures rolled through so we _ pandemic and measures rolled through so we worked incredibly closely and the team _ so we worked incredibly closely and the team in operation talla what closely _ the team in operation talla what closely with the home office managing the response they are into central— managing the response they are into central government for the pandemic. we will— central government for the pandemic. we will come to talk about the regulations and how they were drafted and so on but i do not think it was the home office that was responsible for drafting those regulations, it was the hsc, did operation talla have links on that you have to go via the home office? we did the vast majority of the work we did _ we did the vast majority of the work we did through the home office i think— we did through the home office i think quite properly so the working relationship was strong and latterly and i relationship was strong and latterly and l was _ relationship was strong and latterly and i was involved in a particular meeting — and i was involved in a particular meeting in— and i was involved in a particular meeting in the cabinet office i think— meeting in the cabinet office i think in— meeting in the cabinet office i think in september 2020 where we got some access as the police service to some _ some access as the police service to some of— some access as the police service to some of the — some access as the police service to some of the dhs see data, at that stage _ some of the dhs see data, at that stage we — some of the dhs see data, at that stage we were moving into tears and local rock _ stage we were moving into tears and local rock tones and we felt that understanding some of the localised data to _ understanding some of the localised data to take part in meetings but up to that _ data to take part in meetings but up to that point and play manly throughout the pandemic route was through— throughout the pandemic route was through the home office. | throughout the pandemic route was through the home office. i will come back to that — through the home office. i will come back to that when _ through the home office. i will come back to that when we _ through the home office. i will come back to that when we are _ through the home office. i will come back to that when we are talking - back to that when we are talking about the regulations. to finish this part of the statement, looking at paragraph 35, we see again a reference to operation talla having applications for all forces, england but also scotland and wales and northern ireland, b have already touched on the fact policing is a devolved matter, did the scottish and northern irish police forces and fight simply use the guidance documents promulgated by the npcc under the adopt a slightly different approach? it is under the adopt a slightly different a- roach? , ,., ., ., under the adopt a slightly different auroach? , ., ., approach? it is important to say they were _ approach? it is important to say they were from _ approach? it is important to say they were from a _ approach? it is important to say they were from a policing - they were from a policing perspective very fully part and links _ perspective very fully part and links to — perspective very fully part and links to operation talla so in all the meeting processes represented there and _ the meeting processes represented there and all the guidance provided in england and wales was shared with northern— in england and wales was shared with northern ireland and scotland and in some _ northern ireland and scotland and in some cases — northern ireland and scotland and in some cases they would utilise what was on _ some cases they would utilise what was on our— some cases they would utilise what was on our guidance but produced their— was on our guidance but produced their own — was on our guidance but produced their own guidance but very rarely did it _ their own guidance but very rarely did it differ in any significant way from _ did it differ in any significant way from the — did it differ in any significant way from the guidance we were producing because _ from the guidance we were producing because one of the other points i think— because one of the other points i think is— because one of the other points i think is important, we ran this as a uk police _ think is important, we ran this as a uk police response despite the fact that for— uk police response despite the fact that for a _ uk police response despite the fact that for a significant part of the pandemic— that for a significant part of the pandemic the legislation and regulations only countries differed to one _ regulations only countries differed to one extent or another. that regulations only countries differed to one extent or another.- regulations only countries differed to one extent or another. that is a oint to to one extent or another. that is a point to be — to one extent or another. that is a point to be welcome _ to one extent or another. that is a point to be welcome back - to one extent or another. that is a point to be welcome back to. - to one extent or another. that is a point to be welcome back to. can l to one extent or another. that is a point to be welcome back to. can i turn and ask you more about the particular powers and legal framework for the enforcement exercise, to do this perhaps we could call up on screen as it which is a guidance note produced by the npcc, as also badged with the couege npcc, as also badged with the college of policing and it is right to say this was produced fairly early in the pandemic and april, is this typical of the type of document provided during the pandemic? it is relatively typical, this document and i_ relatively typical, this document and i think we may look at another, the challenge we had across the uk, 140.000 _ the challenge we had across the uk, 140,000 police officers and the community doing what you are asked to do was— community doing what you are asked to do was how we found a way to effectively — to do was how we found a way to effectively as possible provide the information those officers are required _ information those officers are required to do theirjob safely and properly— required to do theirjob safely and properly and to achieve the objectives set so there was an enormous _ objectives set so there was an enormous effort placed on producing very clear— enormous effort placed on producing very clear and easily understandable guidance _ very clear and easily understandable guidance that would go out through all the _ guidance that would go out through all the electronic devices officers carried _ all the electronic devices officers carried so— all the electronic devices officers carried so that people had access to the information needed at any given time _ the information needed at any given time. ., ., ., , ., time. you do not see it as your role to provide — time. you do not see it as your role to provide lengthy _ time. you do not see it as your role to provide lengthy and _ time. you do not see it as your role to provide lengthy and what - time. you do not see it as your role to provide lengthy and what it - to provide lengthy and what it guidance documents to the chief constable and leave it to them to talk to their staff, you were trying to draft documents that would go straight to being used on the ground. mi; straight to being used on the round. y . . straight to being used on the round. g , . ., ., , ground. my experience over many decades is — ground. my experience over many decades is that _ ground. my experience over many decades is that a _ ground. my experience over many decades is that a lengthy - ground. my experience over many i decades is that a lengthy documents would _ decades is that a lengthy documents would not _ decades is that a lengthy documents would not be terribly helpful front offices _ would not be terribly helpful front offices on — would not be terribly helpful front offices on the ground and whilst we shared _ offices on the ground and whilst we shared everything and i met regularly with all chief constables, the challenge in contracting that to them _ the challenge in contracting that to them was — the challenge in contracting that to them was you would not get the consistency and what we were aiming for was _ consistency and what we were aiming for was to— consistency and what we were aiming for was to try and get as much consistency as possible, against the backdrop _ consistency as possible, against the backdrop of different regulations and different countries. just looking, there is first of all a royal which is the police powers which is the role of the police in forcing or ensuring compliance with coronavirus regulations. just looking at the act first of all, there is there, described a power to direct people to be tested for coronavirus and a power to enforce medical directions. was that, in fact, a power that the police found themselves exercising much? in a very limited _ themselves exercising much? in a very limited way _ themselves exercising much? in a very limited way indeed. you can see from the _ very limited way indeed. you can see from the paragraph at the bottom of the column, it was a power that had to be _ the column, it was a power that had to be exercised in consultation with a public— to be exercised in consultation with a public health officer, which was presumably one reason it didn't get much _ presumably one reason it didn't get much use _ presumably one reason it didn't get much use in— presumably one reason it didn't get much use in practice. and i think it is probably— much use in practice. and i think it is probably helpful, always one of the challenges with policing on the ground _ the challenges with policing on the ground is—