lends credibility to a policy that you might not agree with. all i can say is, yes, that is a risk, but there were occasions where we overtly, at the podium, disagreed on the evidence that was underlying, or at least explain to the evidence that underlay a decision. so, for example, in the move of the two metre rule to a lower figure, example, in the move of the two metre rule to a lowerfigure, i was clear on the podium that two metres is safer than one metre, full stop. it does not mean it is unreasonable to make a policy decision to move, but the evidence base was clear. so thatis but the evidence base was clear. so that is a rather long answer to your question, because i do not know whether, ultimately, it is the right or wrong thing for us to have been there. i think it is something worth looking at. my gut feeling is it was probably overall beneficial for us to be there. probably overall beneficial for us to be there-— probably overall beneficial for us to be there. _, ., _, , to be there. one could, of course, imaaine to be there. one could, of course, imagine a — to be there. one could, of course, imagine a recommendation - to be there. one could, of course, imagine a recommendation that i to be there. one could, of course, imagine a recommendation that it| imagine a recommendation that it simply should not happen and that the risk of independent advisers such as yourself becoming too associated with government policy was such that it was better for you not to take part in those sessions at all. but that would come at a cost? w , at all. but that would come at a cost? .. , , at all. but that would come at a cost? w , , r' at all. but that would come at a cost? w , , ," ., at all. but that would come at a cost? , , ., cost? exactly, there is risk on both sides, cost? exactly, there is risk on both sides. and — cost? exactly, there is risk on both sides. and i — cost? exactly, there is risk on both sides, and i think _ cost? exactly, there is risk on both sides, and i think marginally - cost? exactly, there is risk on both sides, and i think marginally i - cost? exactly, there is risk on both sides, and i think marginally i am i sides, and i think marginally i am in favour of saying, yes, that was beneficial. but i don't have an evidence base to back that, and there are clear risks associated with it that need to be recognised, and if somebody had said to me, don't worry, you don't need to come to any more press conferences, i wouldn't have lost any sleep over it. ~ ., , wouldn't have lost any sleep over it. ~ ._ . ., ., wouldn't have lost any sleep over it. well, i may come to ask you one or two more — it. well, i may come to ask you one or two more questions _ it. well, i may come to ask you one or two more questions about - it. well, i may come to ask you one or two more questions about press| or two more questions about press conferences before we are done, sir patrick. ., , ~ , conferences before we are done, sir patrick. ., , , ., , , patrick. one of the risks presumably is the risk to — patrick. one of the risks presumably is the risk to which _ patrick. one of the risks presumably is the risk to which sir _ patrick. one of the risks presumably is the risk to which sir chris - is the risk to which sir chris whitiy— is the risk to which sir chris whitty spoke, the abuse that you and your colleagues suffered because you had been _ your colleagues suffered because you had been associated with policy decisions. , ~ ., , ., decisions. yes. i think that is a risk that is _ decisions. yes. i think that is a risk that is going _ decisions. yes. i think that is a risk that is going to _ decisions. yes. i think that is a risk that is going to occur- decisions. yes. i think that is a i risk that is going to occur anyway, and it was very real during the pandemic for a lot of us, something that needs careful thinking about in the future, and certainly some members of sage had that as well, even though they were somewhat distanced from the direct association with politicians. i want to move on _ association with politicians. i want to move on and _ association with politicians. i want to move on and ask— association with politicians. i want to move on and ask you _ association with politicians. i want to move on and ask you questionsi to move on and ask you questions about the latter part of 2020, and to start with, questions about the segmentation policy, or suggestion. as an introduction to that, really, just to take you back to the line which you mentioned earlier on, which you mentioned earlier on, which is repeated several times in your witness statement about the learning you took from that whole experience about, well, i am not going to say it, because there are careful words you use in your statement, i would like to show you them. it is page 71 paragraph 225, please. and we see about four lines down, you say, the most important lesson that i learned and stated repeatedly from the first lockdown onwards in respect of the timing of interventions was that you had to go earlier than you would like, harder than you would like, and broader than you would like, and broader than you would like. sometimes people talk about that as go early, go hard, but that is not quite what you say, and the difference is important. can you in a few sentences explain this thinking and how you are thinking about this developed during the pandemic? figs how you are thinking about this developed during the pandemic? $5 i developed during the pandemic? " i mentioned, in the first wave, i think we didn't go early enough, and there was a trickle in of measures when, i think, there was a trickle in of measures when, ithink, we there was a trickle in of measures when, i think, we should there was a trickle in of measures when, ithink, we should have there was a trickle in of measures when, i think, we should have gone with more measured simultaneously. and at various other times when geographical areas were put into certain measures... you geographical areas were put into certain measures...— geographical areas were put into certain measures... you are watching bbc news as — certain measures... you are watching bbc news as we _ certain measures... you are watching bbc news as we follow _ certain measures... you are watching bbc news as we follow the _ certain measures... you are watching bbc news as we follow the covid - bbc news as we follow the covid inquiry, we arejust bbc news as we follow the covid inquiry, we are just going to bbc news as we follow the covid inquiry, we arejust going to dip away now to the house of lords, while former british prime minister david cameron is being introduced following his appointment as foreign minister. we know that he is going to be called the right honourable the lord cameron of chipping norton, confirming his long—held ties to the cotswold town of chipping norton, which lies within his former witney constituency. this follows him being elevated to the lords after being appointed foreign secretary by rishi sunak. it was that remarkable return to front line politics seven years after he resigned. that is david cameron in the wake of the brexit referendum. you can see the lords gathering in westminster, people filing in. we are expecting this to only take a couple of minutes when we hear from only take a couple of minutes when we hearfrom lord cameron, he will give a short opening speech to the house. he is well aware of the corridors of power, he spent time as prime minister, and he will be sitting in the house of lords. this was done so we can attend cabinet in his new title as foreign minister. we saw his first trip to kyiv, meeting with volodymyr zelensky, the ukrainian prime minister. we will also be following the covid inquiry, you can do that on the website, on the live page on your app on your smartphone or tablet, but this is david cameron, who will be known as lord cameron of chipping norton, as the territorial designation for his peerage was confirmed. we are now having him introduced to the lords, where he will make a short address to the house as well, and like i say, that will allow him to set as the foreign secretary within cabinet. you can see the speaker arriving, black rod walking in. we will bring you the sound from lords as it is brought to us. this is a live stream you are currently seeing. like i say, lord cameron will be known as the right honourable the lord cameron of chipping norton. it confirms those long—held ties to the town, which lies within the cotswolds, also within his former witney constituency, and during his time in office, the former prime minister was known as the member of the so—called chipping norton set, an elite group of celebrities and people of power in the media, which included the then head of news uk, the chief executive rebekah brooks. like i say, david cameron being introduced to the house of lords today. meanwhile, the covid inquiry continues. it looks like he is about to enter. and there he is, david cameron walking — and there he is, david cameron walking into the chamber. charles iii, by the grace of gods of the united — charles iii, by the grace of gods of the united kingdom _ charles iii, by the grace of gods of the united kingdom of— charles iii, by the grace of gods of the united kingdom of great- charles iii, by the grace of gods of. the united kingdom of great britain and northern— the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, _ the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, and - the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, and of- the united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland, and of otherl and northern ireland, and of other realms _ and northern ireland, and of other realms and — and northern ireland, and of other realms and territories _ and northern ireland, and of other realms and territories king, - and northern ireland, and of other realms and territories king, headl and northern ireland, and of other. realms and territories king, head of the commonwealth, _ realms and territories king, head of the commonwealth, defender- realms and territories king, head of the commonwealth, defender of- realms and territories king, head ofj the commonwealth, defender of the faith, _ the commonwealth, defender of the faith. to— the commonwealth, defender of the faith. to all— the commonwealth, defender of the faith, to all lords _ the commonwealth, defender of the faith, to all lords spiritual _ the commonwealth, defender of the faith, to all lords spiritual and - faith, to all lords spiritual and temporal, _ faith, to all lords spiritual and temporal, and _ faith, to all lords spiritual and temporal, and all— faith, to all lords spiritual and temporal, and all other- faith, to all lords spiritual and i temporal, and all other subjects whatsoever _ temporal, and all other subjects whatsoever to _ temporal, and all other subjects whatsoever to whom _ temporal, and all other subjects whatsoever to whom these - temporal, and all other subjects i whatsoever to whom these present shall come. — whatsoever to whom these present shall come, greeting! _ whatsoever to whom these present shall come, greeting! now- whatsoever to whom these present shall come, greeting! now that- whatsoever to whom these present| shall come, greeting! now that we, of our— shall come, greeting! now that we, of our special — shall come, greeting! now that we, of our special grace, _ shall come, greeting! now that we, of our special grace, certain - of our special grace, certain knowledge _ of our special grace, certain knowledge and _ of our special grace, certain knowledge and may - of our special grace, certain i knowledge and may emotion, of our special grace, certain - knowledge and may emotion, in pursuance — knowledge and may emotion, in pursuance of— knowledge and may emotion, in pursuance of the _ knowledge and may emotion, in pursuance of the life _ knowledge and may emotion, in pursuance of the life peeragesl knowledge and may emotion, in. pursuance of the life peerages act 1958. _ pursuance of the life peerages act 1958, and — pursuance of the life peerages act 1958, and all— pursuance of the life peerages act 1958, and all other— pursuance of the life peerages act 1958, and all other powers - pursuance of the life peerages act 1958, and all other powers in - pursuance of the life peerages act 1958, and all other powers in that| 1958, and all other powers in that behalf— 1958, and all other powers in that behalf us — 1958, and all other powers in that behalf us enabling, _ 1958, and all other powers in that behalf us enabling, do _ 1958, and all other powers in that behalf us enabling, do by- 1958, and all other powers in that behalf us enabling, do by these l behalf us enabling, do by these present— behalf us enabling, do by these present advance, _ behalf us enabling, do by these present advance, create - behalf us enabling, do by these present advance, create and . behalf us enabling, do by these . present advance, create and prefer our right _ present advance, create and prefer our right to — present advance, create and prefer our right to trusty— present advance, create and prefer our right to trusty and _ present advance, create and prefer our right to trusty and well- present advance, create and preferj our right to trusty and well beloved counciiior— our right to trusty and well beloved councillor david _ our right to trusty and well beloved councillor david william _ our right to trusty and well beloved councillor david william donald - councillor david william donald cameron — councillor david william donald cameron to _ councillor david william donald cameron to the _ councillor david william donald cameron to the state, - councillor david william donald cameron to the state, degree, | councillor david william donald - cameron to the state, degree, style, dignity. _ cameron to the state, degree, style, dignity. title — cameron to the state, degree, style, dignity. title and _ cameron to the state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour— cameron to the state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of— cameron to the state, degree, style, dignity, title and honour of baron - dignity, title and honour of baron cameron— dignity, title and honour of baron cameron of— dignity, title and honour of baron cameron of chipping _ dignity, title and honour of baron cameron of chipping norton, - dignity, title and honour of baron cameron of chipping norton, of. cameron of chipping norton, of chipping — cameron of chipping norton, of chipping norton— cameron of chipping norton, of chipping norton in— cameron of chipping norton, of chipping norton in our- cameron of chipping norton, of chipping norton in our county. cameron of chipping norton, of| chipping norton in our county of oxfordshire _ chipping norton in our county of oxfordshire. and _ chipping norton in our county of oxfordshire. and for— chipping norton in our county of oxfordshire. and for us, - chipping norton in our county of oxfordshire. and for us, our- chipping norton in our county of. oxfordshire. and for us, our heirs and successors. _ oxfordshire. and for us, our heirs and successors, do— oxfordshire. and for us, our heirs and successors, do a _ oxfordshire. and for us, our heirs and successors, do a point, - oxfordshire. and for us, our heirs and successors, do a point, give i oxfordshire. and for us, our heirs . and successors, do a point, give and grant _ and successors, do a point, give and grant unto— and successors, do a point, give and grant unto him— and successors, do a point, give and grant unto him the _ and successors, do a point, give and grant unto him the said _ and successors, do a point, give and grant unto him the said name, - and successors, do a point, give andi grant unto him the said name, state, degree. _ grant unto him the said name, state, degree. style. — grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, _ grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title - grant unto him the said name, state, degree, style, dignity, title and - degree, style, dignity, title and honour— degree, style, dignity, title and honour of— degree, style, dignity, title and honour of baron _ degree, style, dignity, title and honour of baron cameron - degree, style, dignity, title and honour of baron cameron of- degree, style, dignity, title and - honour of baron cameron of chipping norton. _ honour of baron cameron of chipping norton. to— honour of baron cameron of chipping norton. to have _ honour of baron cameron of chipping norton, to have and _ honour of baron cameron of chipping norton, to have and to— honour of baron cameron of chipping norton, to have and to hold - honour of baron cameron of chipping norton, to have and to hold to - honour of baron cameron of chipping norton, to have and to hold to him . norton, to have and to hold to him for his— norton, to have and to hold to him for his life — norton, to have and to hold to him for his life. willing _ norton, to have and to hold to him for his life. willing and _ norton, to have and to hold to him for his life. willing and by- norton, to have and to hold to him for his life. willing and by these i for his life. willing and by these presents — for his life. willing and by these presents grunting _ for his life. willing and by these presents grunting for— for his life. willing and by these presents grunting for us, - 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hold and possess a seat, place and a voice in the parliaments and public l voice in the parliaments and public assemblies— voice in the parliaments and public assemblies of— voice in the parliaments and public assemblies of us, _ voice in the parliaments and public assemblies of us, our— voice in the parliaments and public assemblies of us, our heirs- voice in the parliaments and public assemblies of us, our heirs and - assemblies of us, our heirs and successors— assemblies of us, our heirs and successors within _ assemblies of us, our heirs and successors within our— assemblies of us, our heirs and successors within our united i successors within our united kingdom. _ successors within our united kingdom, amongst- successors within our united kingdom, amongst the - successors within our united i kingdom, amongst the barons. successors within our united - kingdom, amongst the barons. and also. _ kingdom, amongst the barons. and also. that— kingdom, amongst the barons. and also. that he — kingdom, amongst the barons. and also. that he may— kingdom, amongst the barons. and also, that he may enjoy— kingdom, amongst the barons. and also, that he may enjoy and - 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