hours, it is because of issues around skills. are our university sector is stronger than germany's but 50% of school lovers who don't go to university, the germans have a better system of technical education and we need to learn from that and thatis and we need to learn from that and that is what rishi sunak is talking about in terms of people doing math to 18. part of that is we have less capital investment. germany, france and the united states between them average about 2% more invested in gdp every year. what you will see on wednesday is a range of measures designed to unlock business investment and close that gap with countries li france, germany and the united states and one that i talked about is overhauling the planning system and show local authorities have to meet statutory deadlines or they give you your money back. we are going to unlock access to the grids. a lot of supply side measures to boost that investment. i grids. a lot of supply side measures to boost that investment.— to boost that investment. i think it is ureat to to boost that investment. i think it is great to hear— to boost that investment. i think it is great to hear of _ to boost that investment. i think it is great to hear of business - is great to hear of business investment being front and centre of that and we are hoping to see and energy transition and that move to a greener economy, when we we look to what is happening around the world, we see in the us and biden and the inflation reduction act and the eu have their green new deal, what do you think the uk needs to do to make sure we secure that green growth market, something that we think is important at the cbi? we market, something that we think is important at the (bi?— important at the cbi? we should recounise important at the cbi? we should recognise we _ important at the cbi? we should recognise we have _ important at the cbi? we should recognise we have done - important at the cbi? we should recognise we have done really i important at the cbi? we should l recognise we have done really well in that sector. over the last decade we have build the third largest renewables sector in europe. we are by far europe's largest producer of offshore wind energy. and that is why we have identified clean energy as one of our five strategic industries that we know we have to back. forthe industries that we know we have to back. for the simple reason we have to double the amount of electricity we generate by 2050. that to double the amount of electricity we generate by 2050.— to double the amount of electricity we generate by 2050. that was the chancellor jeremy _ we generate by 2050. that was the chancellorjeremy hunt _ we generate by 2050. that was the chancellorjeremy hunt addressing | chancellor jeremy hunt addressing the chancellorjeremy hunt addressing the cbi conference there ahead of his autumn statement, which will take place on wednesday. we had heard from the prime minister, rishi sunak, hinting that tax cuts are to come and we havejeremy hunt hasn't been drawn on reports that inheritance tax changes are in the works, but he talked of the level of benefits that will be available as a result of the autumn statement and will be more for people who are looking work, but for those turning down job there is will be penalties there. let's cross across london to there. let's cross across london to the covid inquiry. this is sir patrick vallance, who has been speaking throughout the day. two sessions, one this morning and one this afternoon. he wast sessions, one this morning and one this afternoon. he was t scientific advior to the government. a lot has been made of his private diary that he kept. let's hear what he is saying now. preexisting health inequalities within ethnic minority and other groups would result in disparitys in risk and outcome. can i ask firstly, whether this clear understanding expressed here formed part of the advice to senior decision—makers as you and sir chris whitty spoke to them in the period leading to first lockdown in march 2020? i leading to first lockdown in march 2020? 4' ., , leading to first lockdown in march 2020? ~ ., , ., , 2020? ithink it was, i mean it is historically. _ 2020? ithink it was, i mean it is historically, this _ 2020? ithink it was, i mean it is historically, this is _ 2020? ithink it was, i mean it is historically, this is an _ historically, this is an historically, this is an historically true statements that pandemics affect the most disadvantaged people and they drive further disadvantage and inequality. and this is a statement that describes that. i can't recall exactly when we would have given that advice and in a sense it is not really science advice, but it is something that policy makers needed to take into account. sorry, i don't know exact ly to take into account. sorry, i don't know exactly when we raised it. i raised it at a press conference early on. ht raised it at a press conference earl on. , ., raised it at a press conference earl on. �* raised it at a press conference early on-— early on. if you couldn't say if this was advice _ early on. if you couldn't say if this was advice that _ early on. if you couldn't say if this was advice that could - early on. if you couldn't say if this was advice that could be | this was advice that could be infused in the type of advice that you would have given? i’m infused in the type of advice that you would have given? i'm pretty sure that that _ you would have given? i'm pretty sure that that chris _ you would have given? i'm pretty sure that that chris whitty - you would have given? i'm pretty sure that that chris whitty would | sure that that chris whitty would have said this early on, but i don't have said this early on, but i don't have an exact date as to when that would have been said.— have an exact date as to when that would have been said. could we turn to one of your— would have been said. could we turn to one of your diary _ would have been said. could we turn to one of your diary entries - would have been said. could we turn to one of your diary entries of- would have been said. could we turn to one of your diary entries of 17th i to one of your diary entries of 17th april 2020 at 273, 901. in the interests of time i will read what it says. yvonne opened up the only two areas we agreed to steer clear of — ethnicity and in brackets, we don't have the answer yet. and she wasn't even asked the question. i will stop there. my question arising from that is, well, can you confirm that the reference from that is, well, can you confirm that the ref erence to yvonne is yvonne dail?— that the reference to yvonne is yvonne dail? , ~ ., , yvonne dail? yes i think he was the ublic yvonne dail? yes i think he was the public health _ yvonne dail? yes i think he was the public health sector. _ yvonne dail? yes i think he was the public health sector. this _ yvonne dail? yes i think he was the public health sector. this was - yvonne dail? yes i think he was the public health sector. this was at - yvonne dail? yes i think he was the public health sector. this was at a l public health sector. this was at a ress public health sector. this was at a press conference _ public health sector. this was at a press conference where _ public health sector. this was at a press conference where you - public health sector. this was at a press conference where you were | public health sector. this was at a - press conference where you were both appearing? i press conference where you were both a- ”earin? ., �* press conference where you were both auearinu? ., �* ~' appearing? i don't think i was appearing- — appearing? i don't think i was appearing. maybe _ appearing? i don't think i was appearing. maybe i— appearing? i don't think i was appearing. maybe i was - appearing? i don't think i was appearing. maybe i was the i appearing? i don't think i was i appearing. maybe i was the third person. appearing. maybe i was the third erson. , y appearing. maybe i was the third erson. , g , ., appearing. maybe i was the third erson. , y , ., , person. very well. my question is this, was person. very well. my question is this. was the _ person. very well. my question is this, was the ethnicity _ person. very well. my question is this, was the ethnicity issue - person. very well. my question is this, was the ethnicity issue that| this, was the ethnicity issue that you both had agreed to steer clear of the matter of disproportionate death rates among bame health workers? ihla death rates among bame health workers? ., , , ., , workers? no the issue was the revious workers? no the issue was the previous day — workers? no the issue was the previous day we _ workers? no the issue was the previous day we had _ workers? no the issue was the previous day we had received l previous day we had received preliminary information about disproportionate proportions of different ethnic minorities in hospitals and outcome and they were not quite sure exactly what was happening and why they were seeing is it. and they had gone away to undertake more work urgently to try understand whether it was a difference in admission to hospital, a different path way people were following or whether it was related to preexisting illness. it was a piece of work we had seen the afternoon before, and it was due to be updated with the information as to what was causing it. so we could give proper information as to what might be done. 50 give proper information as to what might be done-— might be done. so it was a very secific might be done. so it was a very specific set _ might be done. so it was a very specific set of _ might be done. so it was a very specific set of facts _ might be done. so it was a very specific set of facts or - might be done. so it was a very specific set of facts or a - might be done. so it was a very| specific set of facts or a scenario that you were talking about, that is the reason why you wanted her to steer clear of it. ?_ the reason why you wanted her to steer clear of it. ? pause we didn't know, the — steer clear of it. ? pause we didn't know, the question _ steer clear of it. ? pause we didn't know, the question we _ steer clear of it. ? pause we didn't know, the question we were - steer clear of it. ? pause we didn't know, the question we were trying i steer clear of it. ? pause we didn't i know, the question we were trying to address, was this something that was going on in hospital that the same proportion of different ethnic groups were admitted and the outcome was worse in hospital, or was it to do with the admission and underplying disease states. we had seen something that didn't look right and we wanted to understand the causes of that so we could comment on it more effectively. i have to ask you this question, was, would you say in reflection that there was any nervousness to speak authoritatively on issues of disparity in health outcome based on ethnicity? trio. disparity in health outcome based on ethnici ? ., ~' disparity in health outcome based on ethnici ? ., ~ ., ethnicity? no, ithink, well, not from our perspective. _ ethnicity? no, ithink, well, not from our perspective. we - ethnicity? no, ithink, well, not from our perspective. we early| ethnicity? no, ithink, well, not. from our perspective. we early on raised this as an issue. we were keen to see sit properly understood. public health england undertook work and published it. and the ons undertook work and published it. we were keen to try and understand what was driving it. i think quite early on, i don't remember the date sorry, we came to the conclusion that the likely causes was to do with inequality and to do with issues of health—related inequality, rather than some biological differences that were driving this outcome — at that were driving this outcome — at that stage. mr; that were driving this outcome - at that state. g ., that were driving this outcome - at that state. g . , ., , that stage. my final question is it fair to say that _ that stage. my final question is it fair to say that during _ that stage. my final question is it fair to say that during this - that stage. my final question is it fair to say that during this time i that stage. my final question is it | fair to say that during this time on or around middle, the middle of april 2020, the matter of disproportionate deaths based on ethnicity was considered more a matter of public messaging, political messaging, rather than a bona fide issue of public health? no, i think it was seen by the public health people very much as an issue of public health and that there were obviously preexisting structural inequalities that were causing a problem and as i have said, i was worried that not only was there inequality in terms of what the effect of the virus was, but the virus was driving further inequality because of that. i think this was seen as absolutely a public health issue. this was seen as absolutely a public health issue-— thank you, my lady. good afternoon. i ask questions on behalf of a number of children's rights organisations. firstly, the inquiry�*s heard evidence from a dr david taylor robinson, to the effect that social isolation for children is totally different than social isolation for adults, as there are critical and sensitive periods in children's development and windows of opportunity, as he called it, in children's leaves that you can never get back. are you a aware of any scientific research done for the government during the pandemic on the specific impact of the lockdown rules and restrictions on children as compared to adults? i rules and restrictions on children as compared to adults?— rules and restrictions on children as compared to adults? i don't know ofthe as compared to adults? i don't know of the specific _ as compared to adults? i don't know of the specific piece _ as compared to adults? i don't know of the specific piece of _ as compared to adults? i don't know of the specific piece of research - of the specific piece of research that may have been done. we set up a children's task and finish group tolike look at the impact on children, which involved people from the royal college of paediatrics and other organisations to, and was chaired by the chief science scientific advisor in if department of education to understand the risk to children and it became the basis of i think a very complicated position of relative risks and benefits in children. i don't know of specific research that was undertaken then to look at the impact. but public health england or ons may have done so. studio: we are going to step away from the covid inquiry. we heard earlier from from the covid inquiry. we heard earlierfrom if from the covid inquiry. we heard earlier from if chancellorjeremy hunt at the cbi conference, that was also addressed by labour'sjonathan reynolds. tote also addressed by labour's jonathan re nolds. ~ ., ., , ., reynolds. we need a long-term plan for national — reynolds. we need a long-term plan for national renewal. _ reynolds. we need a long-term plan for national renewal. that _ reynolds. we need a long-term plan for national renewal. that is - reynolds. we need a long-term plan for national renewal. that is the - for national renewal. that is the business environment we are proposing. you know that much of the policy that affects your firms isn't in the remit of the business department or the treasury. it requires a whole government approach. so when it come to your biggest asset, the people who work for you, biggest asset, the people who work foryou, labour's biggest asset, the people who work for you, labour's plan will see you have greater flexibility. it will seen more technical excellence colleges. so you've a pipe line of staff and our new deal is an economic policy to give you a more invested workforce that you can retain for longer. our green prosperity plan with the mission to deliver clean pow er is about public investment that is a catalyst to make the case for private funding. it is about crowding in and not crowding out. we have seen recognition of this from the government, but our policy is more ambitious and it is notjust about businesses involved in the transition, it is about an entire economy where britain has cheaper and more secure energy that is the never again exposed to the price volatility we saw after the invasion of ukraine. labour will take on the other blockage in your economy, it is too hard to build things in britain. be it a house, a factory or a turbine. we will fix our broken system and get britain building again with projects such as gig ga factories and we will deploy political capital to get homes built. ., ., , ., ., built. comment from the shadow business spokesman, _ built. comment from the shadow business spokesman, jonathan i business spokesman, jonathan reynolds, taking of labour's plans at the cbi conference that is also being addressed byjeremy hunt. elsewhere is the covid inquiry that has been hearing from sir patrick vallance. he was the government's chief scientific adviser during the pandemic. let's hear more. that material would have recognised i think you're saying that the, there were differential impacts in relation to none pharmaceutical interventions for children and adults? it interventions for children and adults? ., , , , interventions for children and adults? ,, ., adults? it was focussed on the im act adults? it was focussed on the impact of _ adults? it was focussed on the impact of school _ adults? it was focussed on the impact of school closures - adults? it was focussed on the impact of school closures on i impact of school closures on children's mental health and well being and focussed on if i remember correctly vulnerable children and the risk they had in relation to isolation and being taken away from services. i can't be100% sure we covered all the mpis. t0 services. i can't be 10096 sure we covered all the mpis.— services. i can't be 10096 sure we covered all the mpis. to be tear to ou about covered all the mpis. to be tear to you about this _ covered all the mpis. to be tear to you about this -- _ covered all the mpis. to be tear to you about this -- fair— covered all the mpis. to be tear to you about this -- fair to _ covered all the mpis. to be tear to you about this -- fair to you, - covered all the mpis. to be tear to you about this -- fair to you, in i you about this —— fair to you, in your witness statement, you say, that school closures have obvious unequal and potentially long—term detriments on children. that is your view? , ., detriments on children. that is your view? , . ., ., , detriments on children. that is your view? , . . ., view? yes and that was the view of the a-rou view? yes and that was the view of the group and _ view? yes and that was the view of the group and that _ view? yes and that was the view of the group and that is _ view? yes and that was the view of the group and that is why - view? yes and that was the view of the group and that is why it - view? yes and that was the view of the group and that is why it was i view? yes and that was the view of| the group and that is why it was set up. in all these cases, just fake a step back if i may, they all carried risks as well as the benefit of stopping spread. it is sometimes perceived they were an easy option and stopping the spread was the prior #2i. we were aware that these carried significant risks and particular risks for children. thirdly and finally, i have a question about something that appears in your hand written notes. i don't think can i put this on the screen. i don't think i'm allowed to. will give the reference. in0000, 28661. page 223. a note of yours, i will read it, dated 15th october 2020 and it reads, sage pushing for can't we except children from rule of six? we said no. not unless co wanted to revisit. i will read it again. sage pushing for can't we except children from rule of six? we said no, not unless co wanted to revisit. can you explain that note, please? i revisit. can you explain that note, lease? ., �* ~ ., ., please? i don't know what context that was in. _ please? i don't know what context that was in, but _ please? i don't know what context that was in, but it _ please? i don't know what context that was in, but it sounds - please? i don't know what context that was in, but it sounds like i please? i don't know what context that was in, but it sounds like a i please? i don't know what context that was in, but it sounds like a it| that was in, but it sounds like a it was a sage meeting where people wanted to think about whether the rule of six should or shouldn't include children and cacabinet office didn't want to revisit the policy. office didn't want to revisit the oli . ~ ., ., office didn't want to revisit the oli . ~ ., . ., office didn't want to revisit the oli . . ., ., ., office didn't want to revisit the oli . ~ ., . ., ., policy. would that view of sage have been communicated _ policy. would that view of sage have been communicated to _ policy. would that view of sage have been communicated to the _ policy. would that view of sage have been communicated to the prime i been communicated to the prime minister or any other government minister at the time? i minister or any other government minister at the time?— minister or any other government minister at the time? i think on the rule of six we _ minister at the time? i think on the rule of six we were _ minister at the time? i think on the rule of six we were clear _ minister at the time? i think on the rule of six we were clear that i minister at the time? i think on the rule of six we were clear that we i rule of six we were clear that we didn't actually think that had an enormous basis in anything. why six? why not eight or ten? we wouldn't tell anyone which was better or worse. only the more contacts that you had the more likely it was to create a spreading environment. how was that organised was a policy matter. ~ ., ., .., was that organised was a policy matter. ~ ., ., , ., was that organised was a policy matter. ~ ., ., matter. would that, can you assist as to what — matter. would that, can you assist as to what the _ matter. would that, can you assist as to what the government's i matter. would that, can you assist i as to what the government's response was, if any to that view sage apparently held in october 2020? i can't recall. i think if i remember correctly the government decided it wanted to stick with six. it correctly the government decided it wanted to stick with six.— wanted to stick with six. it wanted to stick with _ wanted to stick with six. it wanted to stick with six _ wanted to stick with six. it wanted to stick with six in _ wanted to stick with six. it wanted to stick with six in england. - to stick with six in england. without making any exemption for children. unlike scotland and wales who took a different approach? yes. thank ou who took a different approach? yes. thank you very _ who took a different approach? yes. thank you very much. _ who took a different approach? yes. thank you very much. thank - who took a different approach? yes. thank you very much. thank you. i who took a different approach? yes. | thank you very much. thank you. mr freedman- — thank you very much. thank you. mr freedman- i — thank you very much. thank you. mr freedman. i act _ thank you very much. thank you. mr freedman. i act for _ thank you very much. thank you. mr freedman. i act for national- freedman. i act for national disabled — freedman. i act for national disabled people's _ freedman. i act for national- disabled people's organisations. can i ask you about representation on sage and related expert groups? mr dale to my left has asked you about your statement at paragraph 552. that it was in foreseeable in effect that pandemics as a rule have the greatist impact on those who those who suffer from underlying diseases. you have called that quote an historically true statement. in your module one evidence, it is day eight 22nd june, 2023, at page 165. you said it was a terrible truth and something that we all need to reflect on, that all pandemics feed on and drive inquality and that awareness ought to be be imbedded right from day one. it needs to be one of those questions on the first sage, what are the issues that you should be thinking about now and you added others need the think of it in term of operational planning. given that foresight, why was there not more representation of those with insight into the predictment of those groups imbedded in day one into sage? i those groups imbedded in day one into sane? ~ . those groups imbedded in day one into sane? ~' , .,, into sage? i think the insight was that that would _ into sage? i think the insight was that that would have _ into sage? i think the insight was that that would have been - into sage? i think the insight wasl that that would have been helpful. we didn't do that on day one, we had a number of scientists looking at specific areas. i think my statement actually is that there is a poll and operations group that deals with disabilities and inequalities and thatis disabilities and inequalities and that is really where this should be driven from. but we should have looked at more in sage i think. 50 looked at more in sage i think. so in effect you should have and as it were hm government as your client, should have pushed you more to consider it?— consider it? well, definitely this is an hm government _ consider it? well, definitely this is an hm government issue. i consider it? well, definitely this i is an hm government issue. because they have a... a unit that focuses specifically on this and they could have fed us a question. in terms of science, the two areas that are most important that were repeatedly covered was keep the prevalence low and look out for special institutions. i will pick up one example. in may 2020, we received a piece of work that had been done by a sub group looking at institutions where spread may occur, including residential homes for people with disabilities. that is a science question we can address, but it is primarily a question for the cabinet unit to think about. flan primarily a question for the cabinet unit to think about.— unit to think about. can i move on about prompts — unit to think about. can i move on about prompts that _ unit to think about. can i move on about prompts that came - unit to think about. can i move on about prompts that came within i unit to think about. can i move on i about prompts that came within the course of the work. you have referred to one. can ijust then ask you about the work of the office for national statistics that showed disproportionate impact upon mortality rates on disabled people from june 2020 onwards. again it may be a similar answer, can i ask you why when it was recognised by that time, orabout why when it was recognised by that time, or about that time that sage would benefit from a wider set of expertise, there was no expertise sought regarding disabled people? i think that piece of work came out of the discussions. ian diamond was part of group. that is a report that needs to go into central government to deal w. i think this is an area where it should automatically happen in sage going forward. i5 where it should automatically happen in sage going forward.— in sage going forward. is that part ofthe in sage going forward. is that part of the question _ in sage going forward. is that part of the question of _ in sage going forward. is that part of the question of why _ in sage going forward. is that part of the question of why no - in sage going forward. is that part. of the question of why no dedicated expertise, why when this kind of data is coming out, whether you have been involved in commissioning it or not, there is no dedicated expertise sought related to disabled people. i think the expertise should sit somewhere else and ask questions of saivenlg. sage. sage is not a directional or policy organisation and not the place where these things need to be turned into action. that may then follow on to my next question, which is in effect the works that commissioned of sage. i take the answers you have already given about this. you have given a list of not all, but many of sage's commissioned pieces of work at page 180 and it is a to p of your statement. none of the list there is dedicated in its focus to the impacts of the covid pandemic upon disabled people. and we found no dedicated sage thing of that nature. we understand that sage supplies the advice it is asked to supply from hm government. but why no dedicated focus? is it simply that you weren't asked? ~ ., . ,, ., focus? is it simply that you weren't asked? ~ ., ., , ., asked? well, i will go back a bit to an answer that _ asked? well, i will go back a bit to an answer that professor _ asked? well, i will go back a bit to an answer that professor punty i asked? well, i will go back a bit to i an answer that professor punty gave. which is the science advice was around making sure the prevalence was low, making sure that those people who were particularly vulnerable were protected and making sure that there were mechanisms to provide that shielding, that others needed to put into place were the key things that we needed to do. so many of papers here are relevant in terms of what somebody needs to do, although we weren't specifically talking about is theabilities. disabilities. the operational of that needs to be done by teams with a dedicated focus and i think that needed dedicated focus. brute a dedicated focus and i think that needed dedicated focus. we have heard from _ needed dedicated focus. we have heard from the _ needed dedicated focus. we have heard from the minister - needed dedicated focus. we have heard from the minister for i needed dedicated focus. we have i heard from the minister for disabled people in terms of what was done. if we think of the problem, for whatever reason that hm government is the clients and its dedicated unitses don't ask the question from sage, does that not underscore sometimes the expert adviser needs to have people with that focus on its main groups to prompt its client to think about those mat sners == to think about those mat sners -- matters? i _ to think about those mat sners » matters? i think that would have been helpful and we didn't have it and it one useful to have a specific focus on that. to make sure we are getting the right questions coming to us the. but it is not a good system for government to rely on a group set up to give scientific advice to try and plug holes elsewhere. advice to try and plug holes elsewhere-— advice to try and plug holes elsewhere. ., i. ., elsewhere. may ask you about the risk osed elsewhere. may ask you about the risk posed by _ elsewhere. may ask you about the risk posed by covid-19 _ elsewhere. may ask you about the risk posed by covid-19 to - elsewhere. may ask you about the risk posed by covid-19 to learning | risk posed by covid—19 to learning disabled and particularly those with downes syndrome. evidence has been given that prior to covid—19 it was well established that respiratory disorders can be the cause of death of people with an intellectual disability and they regard the failure to identify those with such disabilities early on as a missed opportunity. acknowledging to you and reminding myself, sage is not directly responsible for list of the vulnerable, others are and they're medical matters. should those with downes syndrome been on the list of vulnerable and if not should they have been added sooner than 2nd october, november2020 have been added sooner than 2nd october, november 2020 when revised letters were sent out to gp practices. letters were sent out to gp practices-— letters were sent out to gp ractices. , ., , practices. the list was within the dhsc and a _ practices. the list was within the dhsc and a matter— practices. the list was within the dhsc and a matter for _ practices. the list was within the dhsc and a matter for the - practices. the list was within the i dhsc and a matter for the medical dhsc and a matterfor the medical community community. there was no input direct or direct. in terms of what do i think, i'm not an expert in this area, but i think it is well understood that people with downes syndrome into have an increased infection risk and carry a vulnerability. i have understood your answer about division of labour, but we know, again, it is a separate structure, but the nerve tag clinical risk stratification subgroup, 2020, had issued papers recognising high risk, at least on the modelling, in relation to those with down's syndrome. again, not asking about responsibility, i am asking about looking forward, but given your answer about down's syndrome, should there have been speedier ways to process