so our big question this morning, as the temperature drops — can the nhs avoid a terrible winter? to answer that question, victoria atkins in her first interview with us as health secretary. would labour have it any easier? the shadow business secretaryjoins us too. israeli strikes on gaza are most definitely back. mark regez is with us. and nelson mandela's granddaughter — activist ndelika — joins us from dubai where she's pressing the flesh with world leaders at the climate change summit. good morning. with me at the desk — jane moore, the columnist and broadcaster. historian lord andrew roberts. and professor kamila hawthorne — the chair of the royal college of general pracitioners. we're going to spend a lot of the morning talking about health. victoria atkins is with us. one of your colleagues said to me what you do is going to make the difference to whether the toys can hang on at the next election. feel the pressure? the nhs is one of the reasons i came into politics. i feel honoured but an incredible responsibility. we will get into that with some of your questions for victoria. we'll hear what she has to say in a minute or two and put some of your questions to the minister too. let's look at what's making the news first. many of the front pages are dominated by the row over the royals who suppposedly discussed the skin colour of harry and meghan�*s baby — identified supposedly by accident. the sunday mirror says that king charles and the princess of wales will unite this week, to "rise above" the fallout. prince harry has been left off the invite list for the duke of westminster�*s wedding, according to the mail on sunday. and the sunday express says king charles�* heart is breaking about the latest claims. the bbc website leads with the news that a german tourist has been killed and two others injured after a knife and hammer attack in paris last night. the sunday telegraph leads on keir starmer praising margaret thatcher. we will talk more about that later. and the observer focuses on israel's attacks on southern gaza. last night, israel's prime minister benjamin netanyahu said continuing the attacks on gaza was the best way to secure the freedom of the remaining israeli hostages. this weekend, israel has carried out intense air strikes on the south of gaza, and it's pulled out of talks in qatar. hamas says it will only release more hostages if there's a permanent ceasefire. a unicef spokesperson in gaza said the renewed attacks were catastrophic for the people of gaza. mark regev is one of the prime minister's senior advisers, and we can talk to him live from tel aviv. thank you forjoining us. the truce is well and truly over. this weekend, residents of the southern city of khan yunis say the bombardments have been the heaviest they've been. it doesn't look like you are listening to calls from your allies including the americans to take more care to protect civilians. on the contrary we are making a maximum effort maybe even unprecedented. we have designated, it is not the entire city of khan yunis which is going to be susceptible to combat operations, we have designated particular neighbourhoods and given advance warning to people in those neighbourhoods, the civilians, to please leave. we have allocated saver zones for them. they hope is we won't see civilians caught up in the crossfire. our viewers can see civilians are being caught up every single day. in gaza there is not enough fuel, not enough transport to imagine every civilian can respond to every warning. awar is warning. a war is going on, it is difficult. the reason is because of hamas, that not only started this conflict on october the 7th when they invaded our country and butchered people, but which led to the end of the humanitarian pause, refusing to follow through on its own obligations to release prisoners on a list they agreed to. the people of gaza if they have complaints, they know who you —— who to point the finger to. know who you —— who to point the fingerto. in know who you —— who to point the finger to. in the framework of destroying hamas, in accordance with international law, we will continue to make a decision between hamas terrorists and the civilian population. hamas have said something very different about the end of the talks, they say they were willing to keep talking, there were other proposals but israel walked away. it proposals but israel walked away. it is obvious how mass would say that but other parties part of the negotiations have attested that it was how mass�*s fault the dues did not continue. in terms of what is happening now, the continuing bombardment and effect on civilians, it is very clear in the last couple of weeks your allies who want to stand by you have become increasingly alarmed by the scale of your response. kamala harris said yesterday israel has a right to defend itself but not at any cost. to many it looks like what israel is doing is a collective punishment of an entire population thatis punishment of an entire population that is illegal under international law. president biden said the lesson from 9/11 was a country must not be blinded by rage, isn't that what is happening here? not at all. i assure you that is not the case. we are making a maximum effort. i said the case. we are making a maximum effort. isaid before, unprecedented, to try to keep civilians out of harm's way, to avoid them getting caught up in the crossfire. we have sent out maps a few days ago which designated safer areas for people to go to. our task of safeguarding civilians is made especially difficult by her massive�*s deliberate strategy of embedding military command and control, its depots, missile launching sites, among civilian neighbourhoods come inside hospitals and mosques, even schools and un facilities. we are trying to be as surgical as we can beat in a difficult combat situation. when this is over and the numbers are known, because we are using the numbers put out by the hamas ministry of health, but when you compare what israel has done with gaza, compared to the uk and other forces against isis in syria and rack, you will see we have succeeded to keep the level of civilian casualties very low. there are many charities and eyewitnesses on the ground who would dispute your description of what is happening to civilians in gaza. you said, when this is over. there are many asking questions about what will happen to gaza at the end, if you are successful in eliminating hamas. what will happen to this piece of land? it will be in a better situation because hamas has been controlling gaza for 16 years. not only has that been horrific for the people of israel, that has been very sad for the people of gaza. what have they brought civilians in gaza? poverty, bloodshed. surely they deserve better than this extremist regime, terror regime, that doesn't give a hoot and is happy to sacrifice people to advance their very extreme, crazy agenda. thanks very much to mark regev. and the bbc has been speaking to a palestinian official close to the talks who said hamas had made proposals to reach an agreement to extend the ceasefire, including potentially handing over more civilian hostages. the bbc will have more on that throughout the day. our main story at home, is the health service. you are the chair of the royal college of gps. at this time of year, patients, politicians get nervous about the winter crisis. can we avoid something really awful for people in the next few months? it is definitely tough out there, notjust it is definitely tough out there, not just for it is definitely tough out there, notjust for gps it is definitely tough out there, not just for gps but across the it is definitely tough out there, notjust for gps but across the nhs. we have quite serious staff shortages, lack of resources. with winter comes respiratory illnesses, people slipping in streets, breaking their wrists and hips and so on. i think it is going to be a difficult time. i would like to see what victoria has to say about her short plans for this winter. to some extent the government is reassuring itself with more ambulances, more virtual wards and reds but if we have another strap a crisis as a last winter we are in trouble. —— strep a. and i would urge people to get their covid and flu vaccines. tell me about your experience? i tell me about your experience? i seem to be doing a tour of london hospitals, — seem to be doing a tour of london hospitals, may need to do with an elderly— hospitals, may need to do with an elderly relative and falls. i was in a busy— elderly relative and falls. i was in a busy large teaching hospital in the middle of the day. we reached the middle of the day. we reached the triage — the middle of the day. we reached the triage area with cubicles and i watched _ the triage area with cubicles and i watched the primarily young staff and what — watched the primarily young staff and what they were dealing with. they were — and what they were dealing with. they were so overworked. they were dealing _ they were so overworked. they were dealing primarily with what i would interpret _ dealing primarily with what i would interpret as social care issues. people — interpret as social care issues. people with mental health issues. particularly the elderly who could not get _ particularly the elderly who could not get appointments with their gp, so they— not get appointments with their gp, so they have to turn up at accident and emergency in desperation. and a lot of— and emergency in desperation. and a lot of them, — and emergency in desperation. and a lot of them, i was talking to one elderly— lot of them, i was talking to one elderly person in the waiting area, it wasnt— elderly person in the waiting area, it wasn't even, it was because she couldht— it wasn't even, it was because she couldn't get — it wasn't even, it was because she couldn't get an appointment, she did not how— couldn't get an appointment, she did not how -- _ couldn't get an appointment, she did not how —— she did not know how to id not how —— she did not know how to go oniihe, _ not how —— she did not know how to go oniihe, she — not how —— she did not know how to go online, she could not go in, she could _ go online, she could not go in, she could not— go online, she could not go in, she could not call up. it seems to me now increasingly, and not all gp surgeries— now increasingly, and not all gp surgeries are like this, but my own surgery. _ surgeries are like this, but my own surgery, used to be able to get an appointment easily. now it is like this _ this. i- this. i am sure this. - i am sure we this. — i am sure we will talk about this. i am sure we will talk about that later. andrew, the patients and the public come first in this but the nhs is tricky politically for conservatives. it always has been. i didn't found the nhs — it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in — it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in 1948— it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in 1948 although - it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in 1948 although it- it always has been. i didn't found the nhs in 1948 although it did l it always has been. i didn't found i the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose _ the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it~ — the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it. but _ the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it. but every _ the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it. but every single - the nhs in 1948 although it did not oppose it. but every single general election— oppose it. but every single general election labour— oppose it. but every single general election labour claim _ oppose it. but every single general election labour claim they, - oppose it. but every single general election labour claim they, the - election labour claim they, the tories — election labour claim they, the tories are _ election labour claim they, the tories are about _ election labour claim they, the tories are about to _ election labour claim they, the tories are about to privatise i election labour claim they, thei tories are about to privatise the nhs which — tories are about to privatise the nhs which is _ tories are about to privatise the nhs which is rubbish. _ tories are about to privatise the nhs which is rubbish. even- tories are about to privatise the - nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher— nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did — nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did not _ nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did not privatise _ nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did not privatise the - nhs which is rubbish. even margaret thatcher did not privatise the nhs. l thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is a _ thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is a painful— thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is a painful and _ thatcher did not privatise the nhs. it is a painful and difficult- it is a painful and difficult minefield _ it is a painful and difficult minefield for— it is a painful and difficult minefield for the - it is a painful and difficult minefield for the tories. i it is a painful and difficult. minefield for the tories. find minefield for the tories. and difficult for _ minefield for the tories. difficult for patients. i want minefield for the tories.- difficult for patients. i want to get to the minister then back to you straight afterwards. just get to the minister then back to you straight afterwards.— straight afterwards. just to say this is not _ straight afterwards. just to say this is not a — straight afterwards. just to say this is not a social _ straight afterwards. just to say this is not a social care - straight afterwards. just to say this is not a social care issue. | who would fancy being health secretary? it's getting colder. that traditionally means a winter crisis in the health service. last year saw ambulances queuing as far as the eye could see, agonisingly long waits for patients, and the prime minister's promise to cut waiting lists is looking very shaky. let's remind you of some of the numbers in england, although there are challenges in scotland, wales and northern ireland too. nearly 7.8 million people are on waiting lists for nhs treatment. the highest it has ever been. there are 761 fewer gps than there were four years ago — despite the government promising more. and it took ambulances on average almost 42 minutes to respond to things like strokes and chest pains in october. more than double the target. and victoria atkins the health secretary is with me now. you would wonder why anybody would want to do the job. you have said you care very much about it and it is a privilege. when you look at those numbers how would you describe the state of the nhs? the nhs looks after 66 million people, we have 11 million inpatients each year, there are doctors and nurses and volunteers working in hospitals day in, day out. i totally understand the focus on those cases where nhs care is less than we would hope and expect. i do think it is important to recognise there are some very good news stories in the nhs. on the statistics, the waiting list is actually 6.5 million people on waiting lists. but 7.7 million pathways. if waiting lists. but 7.7 million athwa s. ., but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waitin: for but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waiting for important _ but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waiting for important things - but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waiting for important things for - but 7.7 million pathways. if you are waiting for important things for you j waiting for important things for you it is right these names are counted twice. nobody would dispute there is excellent care but there are very serious problems, do you acknowledge this? yes, this is why we have record funding in the nhs. we also have a series of plans to tackle, for example, urgent and emergency care. in preparation for this winter. of course we know the nhs, like any other health care system in the world when temperatures drop will come under pressure. we put 800 new ambulances on the road to tackle those concerns we all have about ambulances getting to people on time. we have 5000 beds being installed in the nhs at the moment to help provide the extra capacity. you are trying to prepare. we know from you is that these statistics often mean terrible things in real life. i often mean terrible things in real life. ., often mean terrible things in real life. . ., ., , ., life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery — life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery and _ life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery and have - life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery and have been - life. i am on the waiting list for back surgery and have been for life. i am on the waiting list for- back surgery and have been for over a year _ back surgery and have been for over a year i— back surgery and have been for over a year i have — back surgery and have been for over a year. i have been told the waiting list is _ a year. i have been told the waiting list is years — a year. i have been told the waiting list is years and i am not likely to -et list is years and i am not likely to get surgery— list is years and i am not likely to get surgery anytime soon. i am restricted — get surgery anytime soon. i am restricted as to what i can do and i cannot— restricted as to what i can do and i cannot go— restricted as to what i can do and i cannot go on— restricted as to what i can do and i cannot go on much longer like this. what _ cannot go on much longer like this. what are _ cannot go on much longer like this. what are you going to do about the nhs waiting list? what what are you going to do about the nhs waiting list?— what are you going to do about the nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so — nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so sorry— nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so sorry she _ nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so sorry she is _ nhs waiting list? what do you say to her? i am so sorry she is suffering i her? i am so sorry she is suffering in ain. i her? i am so sorry she is suffering in pain- i want _ her? i am so sorry she is suffering in pain. i want to _ her? i am so sorry she is suffering in pain. i want to help _ her? i am so sorry she is suffering in pain. i want to help everybody l her? i am so sorry she is suffering | in pain. i want to help everybody in the country facing these waiting lists. this is why the prime minister has made the waiting list one of his priorities. it minister has made the waiting list one of his priorities.— one of his priorities. it has gone u . one of his priorities. it has gone u- since one of his priorities. it has gone up since he _ one of his priorities. it has gone up since he did _ one of his priorities. it has gone up since he did that. _ one of his priorities. it has gone up since he did that. let's - one of his priorities. it has gone up since he did that. let's show| up since he did that. let's show people what happened to the numbers. this is what has happened to waiting lists. we know the pandemic made things much more challenging. the risk can see it was going up well before the pandemic. lots more money has gone in and there are many, many more style. this is the situation that people like lynn are having to deal with. ., that people like lynn are having to dealwith. ., ., ., , deal with. you are right to expend more money _ deal with. you are right to expend more money than _ deal with. you are right to expend more money than ever _ deal with. you are right to expend more money than ever before - deal with. you are right