relax aches to say we were going to relax aches to say we were going to relax the rules on social distancing for, for kids, for young people, would have been a very very peculiar signal to send out at the very moment when we were trying to get, we were desperately trying to get the existing measures to work and we were on the point of toughening them up. so i think that probably explains, that probably answers the, your question. explains, that probably answers the, your question-— your question. what you are saying is that matt — your question. what you are saying is that matt hancock _ your question. what you are saying is that matt hancock was _ your question. what you are saying is that matt hancock was right - your question. what you are saying | is that matt hancock was right when he said. _ is that matt hancock was right when he said. to — is that matt hancock was right when he said, to helen waitfully this exchange, that number ten doesn't want to— exchange, that number ten doesn't want to shift an inch. he is right ahout— want to shift an inch. he is right about that _ want to shift an inch. he is right about that. i want to shift an inch. he is right about that-— want to shift an inch. he is right about that. ., �* , ., , about that. i don't remember, to be frankl about that. i don't remember, to be frank i don't — about that. i don't remember, to be frank i don't remember _ about that. i don't remember, to be frank i don't remember a _ frank i don't remember a conversation about it but i can see why we would have been reluctant at that stage, given what was going on, in the pandemic.— in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson. — in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson. i — in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson, i hope _ in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson, i hope again - in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson, i hope again this . in the pandemic. finally, mr johnson, i hope again this is johnson, i hope again this is uncontentious, taking a global view of the _ uncontentious, taking a global view of the position, although children had fewer— of the position, although children had fewer health risks from covid than adults, particularly older and more _ than adults, particularly older and more vulnerable adults, do you agree that children suffered disproportionately from the government's non—pharmaceutical intervention to contain the virus, both— intervention to contain the virus, both in_ intervention to contain the virus, both in the — intervention to contain the virus, both in the short and long—term? -term? _ both in the short and long—term? —term? taking an overall view of the pandemic? _ —term? taking an overall view of the pandemic? |— -term? taking an overall view of the andemic? . , ,., , -term? taking an overall view of the andemic? . , , ., ., ., pandemic? i absolutely do and that is wh we pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put _ pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a _ pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a lot _ pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a lot of _ pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a lot of money - pandemic? i absolutely do and that is why we put a lot of money into . is why we put a lot of money into cahms, into mental health services, thatis cahms, into mental health services, that is why the government decided to have a big catch up programme, a big tutoring programme, not as big perhaps as i would have loved to see but i think it was an important thing to do, and, the short answer is yes, i do think the educational detriment was a huge, huge consideration, the loss of life chances, for young people, has to be put new the scales when you are making these appalling choices, as you say, about mpis, and wizards were very much in our minds but the priority was to save i lives. the in . ui priority was to save i lives. the inquiry has _ priority was to save i lives. the inquiry has understandably decided that that _ inquiry has understandably decided that that is a matter to be properly explored _ that that is a matter to be properly explored in— that that is a matter to be properly explored in 2025 in a separate module — explored in 2025 in a separate module so i don't accept what you have _ module so i don't accept what you have just — module so i don't accept what you have just said, in particular in relation — have just said, in particular in relation to— have just said, in particular in relation to the catch up programme but i relation to the catch up programme but i will_ relation to the catch up programme but i will have to deal with that on another— but i will have to deal with that on another occasion, do you understand? ithink— another occasion, do you understand? i think i_ another occasion, do you understand? i think i have, — another occasion, do you understand? i think i have, it was pretty big, but i think that it, we had, it was a, it was a big priority of mine. i understand your answer. you have put your marker done mr menon. thank you. mr freedman. mr your marker done mr menon. thank you. mr freedman.— your marker done mr menon. thank you. mr freedman. mrjohnson, i act for national — you. mr freedman. mrjohnson, i act for national disabled _ you. mr freedman. mrjohnson, i act for national disabled people's - for national disabled people's organisations, they too want to ask you about _ organisations, they too want to ask you about your repeated comments in meetings _ you about your repeated comments in meetings and on whatsapp messages about older people, for example, they are — about older people, for example, they are going to die any way, have had a _ they are going to die any way, have had a good — they are going to die any way, have had a good innings and should accept their fate _ had a good innings and should accept their fate rather than destroying their fate rather than destroying the economy. now, please leave aside for a moment, what was done, by your government, _ for a moment, what was done, by your government, and what you say you truly _ government, and what you say you truly care _ government, and what you say you truly care about, and no doubt the chair— truly care about, and no doubt the chair wiii— truly care about, and no doubt the chair will look at all that evidence. ourfirst chair will look at all that evidence. our first question, chair will look at all that evidence. ourfirst question, in your— evidence. ourfirst question, in your choice— evidence. ourfirst question, in your choice of words, to your government, and advisers were you not being _ government, and advisers were you not being shamefully ageist against those _ not being shamefully ageist against those in _ not being shamefully ageist against those in later life and normalising their premature death. no. those in later life and normalising their premature death.— their premature death. no. i was doinu m their premature death. no. i was doing my best — their premature death. no. i was doing my best to _ their premature death. no. i was doing my best to reflect - their premature death. no. i was doing my best to reflect what - their premature death. no. i was| doing my best to reflect what was their premature death. no. i was l doing my best to reflect what was i am afraid a debate that was very live, and live, i may say, with a great number of old people who would make these points to me, and i wanted to get the answers and we have discussed earlier on today, the down sides of the segmentation approach, that wasn't really going to be enough, but people found that very counter intuitive. they didn't understand why segmentation would be be enough and you had to explain it to them. i be enough and you had to explain it to them. ., , , to them. i did not give permillings for ou to to them. i did not give permillings for you to ask— to them. i did not give permillings for you to ask the _ to them. i did not give permillings for you to ask the question - for you to ask the question shamefuiiy— for you to ask the question shamefully ageist. - for you to ask the question shamefully ageist. just- for you to ask the question shamefully ageist.- for you to ask the question shamefully ageist. just so that eo - le shamefully ageist. just so that people understand, _ shamefully ageist. just so that people understand, can - shamefully ageist. just so that people understand, can we - shamefully ageist. just so that. people understand, can we please avoid, everybody avoid language i haven't approved which could be considered emotive.— haven't approved which could be considered emotive. absolutely my lad . and considered emotive. absolutely my lady- and yes _ considered emotive. absolutely my lady- and yes i _ considered emotive. absolutely my lady. and yes i accept _ considered emotive. absolutely my lady. and yes i accept and - considered emotive. absolutely my lady. and yes i accept and i - lady. and yes i accept and i apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice — apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice of— apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice of words. it apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice of words.— apologise, it wasn't my lady's choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. _ choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. so _ choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. so be _ choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. so be it - choice of words. it is what i call a forensic flourish. so be it my - choice of words. it is what i call a | forensic flourish. so be it my lady but nevertheless _ forensic flourish. so be it my lady but nevertheless reflect - forensic flourish. so be it my lady but nevertheless reflect on - forensic flourish. so be it my lady but nevertheless reflect on your. but nevertheless reflect on your answer — but nevertheless reflect on your answerjust now, and your answer to mr keith _ answerjust now, and your answer to mr keith this — answerjust now, and your answer to mr keith this morning about the various— mr keith this morning about the various comments i know you feel sensitive — various comments i know you feel sensitive about. ijust want to paraphrase what we understood to be your answer, as the lay person in the room. — your answer, as the lay person in the room. i— your answer, as the lay person in the room, ias your answer, as the lay person in the room, i as the your answer, as the lay person in the room, ias the prime your answer, as the lay person in the room, i as the prime minister who had — the room, i as the prime minister who had to — the room, i as the prime minister who had to take the ultimate decision— who had to take the ultimate decision was voicing these ideas about— decision was voicing these ideas about older people, to deal with counter— about older people, to deal with counter arguments out there in the public— counter arguments out there in the public domain, that only the elderly should _ public domain, that only the elderly should be _ public domain, that only the elderly should be shielded. no, public domain, that only the elderly should be shielded.— public domain, that only the elderly should be shielded. no, not only the elderl , should be shielded. no, not only the elderly. forgive _ should be shielded. no, not only the elderly, forgive me. _ should be shielded. no, not only the elderly, forgive me. yes. _ should be shielded. no, not only the elderly, forgive me. yes. no, - should be shielded. no, not only the elderly, forgive me. yes. no, the, l elderly, forgive me. yes. no, the, so, from elderly, forgive me. yes. no, the, so. from the _ elderly, forgive me. yes. no, the, so, from the beginning, we had a massive programme of shielding for the vulnerable, as you know. about 1.3, 1.5, ultimate the vulnerable, as you know. about 1.3,1.5, ultimate about 2.5 million people, some of whom were shielding for an incredibly long time and it was a miserable, lonely business. given all the detriments that people endured, the inability to get the medical health care they might need, that all the down sides of that, it was, i think, that all the down sides of that, it was, ithink, reasonable that all the down sides of that, it was, i think, reasonable to think about other approaches and whether the continued lockdowns were affected. but inned the end, we had no alternative. flit affected. but inned the end, we had no alternative.— no alternative. of course, but for: ive no alternative. of course, but forgive me. — no alternative. of course, but forgive me. i— no alternative. of course, but forgive me, i want— no alternative. of course, but forgive me, i want to - no alternative. of course, but forgive me, i want to take - no alternative. of course, but| forgive me, i want to take you no alternative. of course, but - forgive me, i want to take you back to these _ forgive me, i want to take you back to these comments, once we get into august— to these comments, once we get into august and _ to these comments, once we get into august and september and these comments mostly made in october, you have had _ comments mostly made in october, you have had those discussions about how a more _ have had those discussions about how a more dedicated form of segregation for the _ a more dedicated form of segregation for the elderly and their households is not _ for the elderly and their households is not going to work because the virus _ is not going to work because the virus will— is not going to work because the virus will break out of the shielding system and you are taken to the _ shielding system and you are taken to the whatsapp messages by mr keith _ to the whatsapp messages by mr keith so — to the whatsapp messages by mr keith. so how does your answer to counsel— keith. so how does your answer to counsel to — keith. so how does your answer to counsel to the inquiry this morning and to— counsel to the inquiry this morning and to me — counsel to the inquiry this morning and to me just now, about you butting — and to me just now, about you putting arguments for only older people _ putting arguments for only older people being segregated in some form of supershielding, therefore have anything — of supershielding, therefore have anything to do with your repeated assertions— anything to do with your repeated assertions that old people are going to die _ assertions that old people are going to die any— assertions that old people are going to die any way, that they have had a good _ to die any way, that they have had a good innings and we should not sacrifice — good innings and we should not sacrifice the economy because of them? _ sacrifice the economy because of them? ~ ., ., , sacrifice the economy because of them? ~ . ., , ., sacrifice the economy because of them? . . . , ., ., , ., them? what i am trying to, to put to them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific— them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific opinion, _ them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific opinion, is _ them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific opinion, is the, - them? what i am trying to, to put to the scientific opinion, is the, i - the scientific opinion, is the, i want to understand first of all who is, who the potential victims of covid are at that particular moment, and as everybody knows, it is people of all ages and i have seen it for myself, because i have seen some figures i think for the average median age of covid victims, i am trying to understand what alternatives we have, and i am reflecting a, a widespread view, that there must be some twin track strategy, there must be some way in which we can somehow avoid this damage to the entire economy, and society, while looking after the interests of the elderly, and what i am trying to get from the, from the scientists, is, you know from everybody in the room, is what is the answer to this? and the answer is, as everybody knows, that there is, as everybody knows, that there is no alternative approach, if you let, if, there is no way of sequestering the elderly population or the vulnerable, sufficiently, and they will die tragically in great numbers when it gets uncontrollable. let me ask you about your knowledge and words round the broader population of disabled people that were dying. did you know, then, as of autumn of 2020 that code of posted risks to a wide range of disabled people of all ages, and in that i include people with learning disability, people with down's syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people _ syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people with _ syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people with a _ syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people with a huge - syndrome, and the like? we certainly knew that people with a huge variety | knew that people with a huge variety of syndromes were particularly vulnerable, and that is why we had a shielding scheme. ltrefoil vulnerable, and that is why we had a shielding scheme.— shielding scheme. well that being the case, shielding scheme. well that being the case. we _ shielding scheme. well that being the case, we do _ shielding scheme. well that being the case, we do not _ shielding scheme. well that being the case, we do not find - shielding scheme. well that being the case, we do not find you - the case, we do not find you repeatedly raising at this juncture with your government, and your senior advisers, with your government, and your senioradvisers, in with your government, and your senior advisers, in whatsapps and notes and meetings, about that problem, in a sense leading from the front with words and actions to let your government know in no uncertain terms that disabled people's lives are worth living, why is that? actually that is not true. what we did was to try to stop the spread of the virus and protect those who were shielding and vulnerable from a break out. ~ ., , , shielding and vulnerable from a break out-— break out. well, lastly, and standing — break out. well, lastly, and standing back, _ break out. well, lastly, and standing back, my - break out. well, lastly, and standing back, my lady - break out. well, lastly, and standing back, my lady if i l break out. well, lastly, and - standing back, my lady ifi may, and standing back, my lady if i may, and it follows from what has been said. public know, you know, that sometimes you use language florid language and one way to conclude about your use of language is that is just borisjohnson being about your use of language is that isjust borisjohnson being boris johnson. it is a matterfor isjust borisjohnson being boris johnson. it is a matter for my lady, but is that the kind of conclusion you would want her to reach? or would you rather her reach a conclusion that language of that florid kind of nature, even if said injest should not florid kind of nature, even if said in jest should not be used by a government official, and especially one who had the power that you enjoyed in autumn 2020? 7 which enjoyed in autumn 20207 7 which language mr freedman7 enjoyed in autumn 2020? ? which language mr freedman?— language mr freedman? where i describe it emotive _ language mr freedman? where i describe it emotive loire - language mr freedman? where i describe it emotive loire or- language mr freedman? where i describe it emotive loire or not l describe it emotive loire or not whether— describe it emotive loire or not whether old people have a good in, they are _ whether old people have a good in, they are going to die any way i... let me— they are going to die any way i... let me thank you. | they are going to die any way i... let me thank you.— let me thank you. i think you understand — let me thank you. i think you understand the _ let me thank you. i think you understand the q