a man has gone on trial accused of plotting to kidnap, rape and murder the tv presenter holly willoughby. gavin plumb, who's 37 and from essex, is alleged to have developed an obsession with the star over a number of years. he denies the charges. security forces in the republic of dagestan in southern russia say they've killed six of the gunmen responsible for a series of attacks on synagogues, churches and police check points which left at least 20 people dead. most of the victims were police, but a priest was also among them. now, during the uk general election campaign, the bbc�*s nick robinson has been conducting a series of panorama interviews with the party leaders. nick was joined a short while ago by the green party's co—leader, adrian ramsay. mr ramsay told the bbc that his party has a "different way of thinking" when it comes to tax and spending. he defended the party's pledge to raise taxes and said it is the only party being honest with the public during the general election campaign. the green party's manifesto claims it will raise up to £70 billion a year through increases in wealth tax, capital gains tax and national insurance. let's hear some of what adrian ramsay had to say about its planned tax hikes. let's talk about tax. absolutely. let me finish that point. so, the share of the economy that goes into tax for the uk at the moment is near the bottom of the european league table. what we are proposing would move us up, but we would still be below where france and other countries are, and so actually it's labour and the conservatives that are way out of step with what other countries are doing. the ifs, institute for fiscal studies, has been very clear that the next government is either going to have to cut public services or increase taxes, and so the green party is the only party being honest in this election. we can cross live to westminster and our political correspondent, alicia mccarthy. we have been interviewing, of course, my colleague nick robinson has been interviewing the party leaders but what stands out from this interview with the greens is just how different their position is when it comes to taxes. that just how different their position is when it comes to taxes.— when it comes to taxes. that is ri . ht and when it comes to taxes. that is right and you — when it comes to taxes. that is right and you picked _ when it comes to taxes. that is right and you picked up - when it comes to taxes. that is right and you picked up on - when it comes to taxes. that is right and you picked up on the | right and you picked up on the phrase that adrian ramsay used a lot, a different way of thinking, because compared to the other parties, the amounts of money that the green party for england and wales is talking about taxing and spending is fantastically more. labour and the conservatives were into somewhere between five and 20 billion but the green party is much, much more than that, into the £70 billion range, as you saw in that nick robinson piece, so a huge difference in their plans but the green say, this is what we need to do, we are being more honest with the voters and if you want to improve things like nhs and education and all the things people to say are important, you need to think differently and raise money differently. think differently and raise money differentl . ~ ., think differently and raise money differentl . ~ . , ., . ., differently. what did you learn from the -a differently. what did you learn from the party in — differently. what did you learn from the party in that— differently. what did you learn from the party in that interview? - differently. what did you learn from the party in that interview? there . the party in that interview? there was a piece _ the party in that interview? there was a piece about _ the party in that interview? there was a piece about cars _ the party in that interview? there was a piece about cars and - the party in that interview? there was a piece about cars and you i the party in that interview? ii—ii” was a piece about cars and you will perhaps remember the conservative party had a plan to phase out when you could buy a new petrol or diesel car and there was a target date for that. the greens have gone a step further than that and they are saying they want to scrap petrol and diesel cars in about ten years' time, in 2035, so nick robinson put it to adrian ramsay that this would be a rather expensive policy and the aa had costed it at £26 billion and this really was an impossible dream but again, adrian ramsay made this point, you have to think differently, we have to do these kind of thing is if you want to really change our future so i thought that was quite an interesting point. he was also challenged about the greens' policy when it came to people coming to the uk, so migration and immigration, another story that has been really big in this election campaign. nick robinson put it to him that green party policy is for a world without borders, so he challenged him about what exactly that meant. mr ramsay said, that is not in our manifesto, not a policy that is in our manifesto, but he did then talk a lot about being welcoming, having safe and legal roots, about people being able to come to the uk and the uk's history of being a lot aboutt being welcoming, having safe and legal roots, about people being able to come to the uk and the uk's history of being a country. qm. history of being a country. 0k, alicia mccarthy, _ history of being a country. 0k, alicia mccarthy, thank you for ripping us up to date on that interview from westminster. talk to jenny kleeman and anna gross. i know, the greens are saying that that they are actually different but on this it comes to taxation. what did you draw from that interview with adrian ramsay? it did you draw from that interview with adrian ramsay?— did you draw from that interview with adrian ramsay? it was a really interestin: with adrian ramsay? it was a really interesting interview _ with adrian ramsay? it was a really interesting interview and _ with adrian ramsay? it was a really interesting interview and he - with adrian ramsay? it was a really interesting interview and he was - interesting interview and he was actually challenged by nick robinson that some of the policies in total would come to about a a year in spending, which is colossally higher than the other parties. —— spending, which is colossally higher than the other parties. "140 £5 than the other parties. —— 140 £5 billion. but it was quite a bad day for him to be interviewed by nick robinson because it was the very day that the iss had come out and said essentially the two main parties, both labour and the conservatives, had not properly funded their policies —— quite a good day. but their policies did not rise to the challenges that the public services were facing at the moment, sol thought that adrian ramsay kind of defended himself quite well against those accusations that some of their plans went very well thought out and were quite extreme compared to the other parties. i also thought it was quite interesting just on the environmental, the carbon tax point. he was challenged, because the party set out a plan to introduce a carbon tax in its manifesto but it wasn't very clear exactly how that would work, and he was challenged on whether it would be a regressive tax, because a lot of these things like meat taxation for taxation on flights are often regressive in that they will impact poorer people more than they impact people who have more money. and he actually set out that, it still lacked a great deal of clarity, but he said the idea of the carbon tax is it would hit the kind of big polluting companies. i will bring jenny in on that. adrian ramsay said the extra hundred and £72 billion his party would raise by 2030 was needed for public services and lowering carbon emissions and also said the transition to a green economy would tackle the cost of living crisis. we have seen some of the other main political parties being accused of running back on some of their green policies because they cost too much and this is a cost of living crisis, so what you read of what mr ramsay had to say on that? it read of what mr ramsay had to say on that? ., , , read of what mr ramsay had to say on that? . , , . , , read of what mr ramsay had to say on that? , �* that? it has been absent, it hasn't had, in the — that? it has been absent, it hasn't had, in the election _ that? it has been absent, it hasn't had, in the election campaign - that? it has been absent, it hasn'tl had, in the election campaign when it comes _ had, in the election campaign when it comes to— had, in the election campaign when it comes to the other parties, anything _ it comes to the other parties, anything to do with green policies and we _ anything to do with green policies and we know rishi sunak is not particularly interested in the environment, it is not very high up on his_ environment, it is not very high up on his agenda and he has had to be dragged _ on his agenda and he has had to be dragged kicking and screaming to various_ dragged kicking and screaming to various cops because it is not a big priority— various cops because it is not a big priority for— various cops because it is not a big priority for him so there is this boldness— priority for him so there is this boldness and point of difference but is it expected the green party. but today— is it expected the green party. but today the — is it expected the green party. but today the iss criticised the green party— today the iss criticised the green party and — today the iss criticised the green party and put them in the same boat as reform _ party and put them in the same boat as reform in terms of promising massive — as reform in terms of promising massive and spend abilities that don't _ massive and spend abilities that don't add — massive and spend abilities that don't add up, the iff said, and this is the _ don't add up, the iff said, and this is the thing — don't add up, the iff said, and this is the thing with the green party, they know— is the thing with the green party, they know the greatest power they have is _ they know the greatest power they have is perhaps in pushing the dial in attracting disaffected labour voters. — in attracting disaffected labour voters. it — in attracting disaffected labour voters, it may be voters looking for somewhere — voters, it may be voters looking for somewhere to go to when they would have voted _ somewhere to go to when they would have voted forjeremy corbyn in the past and _ have voted forjeremy corbyn in the past and they know the sums don't have to _ past and they know the sums don't have to add — past and they know the sums don't have to add up. —— the ifs. a day when _ have to add up. —— the ifs. a day when nobody's sums add up, there's didn't— when nobody's sums add up, there's didn't add _ when nobody's sums add up, there's didn't add up either. jenni.t when nobody's sums add up, there's didn't add up either.— didn't add up either. jenny and i know, didn't add up either. jenny and i know. thank— didn't add up either. jenny and i know, thank you _ didn't add up either. jenny and i know, thank you very _ didn't add up either. jenny and i know, thank you very much - didn't add up either. jenny and i know, thank you very much for. didn't add up either. jenny and i i know, thank you very much for the moment. ——jenny know, thank you very much for the moment. —— jenny and anna. being a carerfor a loved one, or ensuring they have proper care, is an issue that is often neglected in politics. in the first head—to—head debate between rishi sunak and keir starmer, the subject was only discussed for around 36 seconds. let's take you back to 2019. we will fix the crisis in social care once and for all with a clear plan. here's borisjohnson on the steps of downing street vowing to fix social care. his government did set a timetable for introducing an £86,000 cap — or limit — to an individual�*s care costs over a lifetime. originally due in 2023, its introduction in england was delayed until october next year. labour and the conservatives have said they will go ahead with this care cap, but experts say the money allocated is already being used to prop up the existing system. both labour and conservative manifestos say they'll improve pay and conditions for care staff, but there is little detail, particularly when it comes to how care will be funded. smaller parties have been more ambitious. the liberal democrats and the green party have both said they would make personal care free, with the greens today announcing a £20 billion package under what it calls its "ta ke greater ca re" commitment. let's bring in nadra ahmed cbe, executive co—chair of the national care association. welcome to the context. this is an issue that is so important to people who are living through this day in, day out, but some action group say it is one that does not necessarily get enough attention when it comes to political conversations. what is your analysis of that? i to political conversations. what is your analysis of that?— your analysis of that? i think that is true. it your analysis of that? i think that is true- it is _ your analysis of that? i think that is true. it is often _ your analysis of that? i think that is true. it is often a _ your analysis of that? i think that is true. it is often a signed - your analysis of that? i think that is true. it is often a signed bite i is true. it is often a signed bite about fixing social care —— a sound bite. this goes back to the blair era. we have been talking about this and how it is all going to be sorted out and downing street sets have heard this so many times, but it is just an election sound bite very often when people come into power, they don't really understand social care, and i think there are very few politicians who really understand what social care does, but its contribution to communities is, and more importantly, how important it is to people who draw on it. and i think it would take a very brave politician to be able to really grasp the metal and run with it. in terms of the amount of funding you think needs to go into making the sector more viable, make it more viable for people to care for their loved ones, what you think that amount of money needs to be? —— grasp the nettle. i amount of money needs to be? -- grasp the nettle.— amount of money needs to be? -- grasp the nettle. i think we need to first look at — grasp the nettle. i think we need to first look at where _ grasp the nettle. i think we need to first look at where the _ grasp the nettle. i think we need to first look at where the black - grasp the nettle. i think we need to first look at where the black hole i first look at where the black hole is within social care and we do know there is about between £8 billion and £12 million shortfall as we stand, to stand still, and some of those figures are figures that were actually brought about by the current chancellor when he was the chair of the health select committee that we know that is ever—growing and so there is an enormous subsidy thatis and so there is an enormous subsidy that is happening by the communities around, by providers who are delivering the service despite not being properly funded, but more importantly, by a workforce that deserves much better and should be paid much better stop so when we talk about 20 billion, or when we talk about 20 billion, or when we talk about 20 billion, or when we talk about the sums, we have to take out of the first ten, if i am kind, intojust fixing out of the first ten, if i am kind, into just fixing that underspend, that a lack of investment that has happened over the years. and then we need to start looking at what the developmental side is, and that is about talking about social care in its own right, and not always assuming that it is there to support the nhs. of course it is there as part of the solution for making the nhs work better, by funding the nhs, it is not going to make social care and more robust, so the investment needs to be way above what is to being talked about if we are looking at developmental moves. fiifi being talked about if we are looking at developmental moves.— being talked about if we are looking at developmental moves. 0k, do stay with us. it at developmental moves. 0k, do stay with us- it is — at developmental moves. 0k, do stay with us. it is very _ at developmental moves. 0k, do stay with us. it is very interesting - at developmental moves. 0k, do stay with us. it is very interesting what i with us. it is very interesting what you have stayed with us —— shared with us so far. i will start to review, anna, on this. this is often seen as an issue that is not talked about enough by politicians but it is one, as i said already, a deeply impact those involved in caring for their loved ones and i have many friends who struggle on their salaries or they say they are unpaid carers and don't get enough support or help. —— i will start with you. why do you think this is not talked about as widely as it should be? this about as widely as it should be? is you say, there is a bit of a conspiracy of silence around social care and i think one of the issues is it is incredibly costly. it is going to be a problem that will require a very large amount of investment. you just heard some figures there are about the funding shortfall, the local government association has also said that england faces a £62 billion funding gap over the next two years and a lot of social care is paid for by local authorities. lot of social care is paid for by localauthorities. i lot of social care is paid for by local authorities. i think on the conservative side, it is interesting, i was at a event which theresa may was giving a speech at and she was actually asked about social care and she said that her view is that we need to be kind of more honest with the public that this is something that they need to be saving for over the course of their lifetime, and that the government can't pay for all of it. so, i think that is actually quite a widely held view in some conservative circles, so i think that this may be part of the picture of why. .. that this may be part of the picture of why... i that this may be part of the picture of wh , g , of why. .. i will bring jenny in. what is your— of why. .. i will bring jenny in. what is your talk _ of why. .. i will bring jenny in. what is your talk on - of why. .. i will bring jenny in. what is your talk on that? i of why. .. i will bring jenny in. i what is your talk on that? i think theresa may tried to _ what is your talk on that? i think theresa may tried to be - what is your talk on that? i think theresa may tried to be honest l what is your talk on that? i think i theresa may tried to be honest with the general public in may 2017 in issuing _ the general public in may 2017 in issuing her plans for social care and its — issuing her plans for social care and its completely derailed her campaign, you know, it was the death knell for— campaign, you know, it was the death knell for its _ campaign, you know, it was the death knell for its really and meant she lost her — knell for its really and meant she lost her majority, it was political suicide _ lost her majority, it was political suicide for— lost her majority, it was political suicide for her and it is a real problem _ suicide for her and it is a real problem that it is not something we seem _ problem that it is not something we seem to _ problem that it is not something we seem to he — problem that it is not something we seem to be able to discuss in an adult _ seem to be able to discuss in an adult way— seem t