♪ ♪ back at war. after hamas breaks the seven-day truce, israel steps up attacks on southern gaza and the u.s. offers a warning. >> as israel defends itself it matters how. >> how should israel respond? >> eliminate hamas. nothing will stop us. >> south carolina republican lindsay graham joins me exclusively. plus using faith as progressives split with president biden over the war and other priorities. they won't vote. it's 2016 all over again. >> how much could that hurt biden in the fall? progressive caucus chairwoman pramila jayapal joining us. and teflon don? and donald trump is trying to flip the script. >> this campaign is a righteous crusade. >> can anyone counter him? our panel will discuss. ♪ ♪ hello. i'm dana bash in washington where the state of our union is six weeks from the iowa caucuses, but this election cycle already feels a long time coming. in iowa this weekend former president donald trump is trying to turn to the general election with the brazen yet not surprising new claim that president biden is the threat to american democracy, not him, even as trump faces charges that he tried to overturn the 2020 election. president biden's general election campaign was complicated again this week by the resumption of the israel-hamas war. overseas yesterday vice president kamala harris offered words of caution for israel as it picked up its bombing campaign in an already devastated gaza where israel is warning palestinians who evacuated to the south to move again. after the u.s. says hamas reneged on its deal with israel to release the women they are still holding hostage. here with me now is republican senator lindsay graham. thank you so much for joining me this morning, sir. let's start with the hostages. hamas still has more than 130 hostages including the u.s. government believes eight americans, what should israel and the u.s. do right now to get them out? >> i guess just keep talking, and i would -- old put more pressure on iran. hamas does not exist without iranian help. our soldiers are being hit in syria and iraq by shiite militia controlled iran. i would go to iran and say, listen, you need to tell hamas to let these hostages go, if you don't you'll start paying a heavier price. >> and you think that that pressure on iran will actually result in hostages being returned? there's nothing simple here. i don't want to over simplify it, but that is -- >> no, you're right. here's what i believe, if iran felt they were threatened by hamas' behavior they would have hamas change their behavior, but israel is going back to the fight, but here ate big question. vice president harris has said, you know, israel has the right to defend themselves. how you do it matters. the secretary of defense said it's strategic for israel to have killed too many palestinians. i don't want any palestinian to die, but how do you do this? vice president harris tell israel how to destroy hamas in a way not to hurt innocent palestinians and now pass it along. i don't know how to do this and hamas has integrated the apartments, schools and hospitals. they have tunnels all over the place. the reason so many palestinians are dying, i think, is because hamas wants them to die because if you have ideas about less civilian casualties, let me know, i'll tell israel, but you tell them directly, but the idea of hamas still standing when this is over would be the ultimate strategic failure. >> the reason she said that, obviously, secretary austin said which i'll get to in a minute is they believe too many palestinian civilians have been killed. do you agree with that? >> well, tell us how to do it differently. yeah. what is too many people dying in world war ii after pearl harbor? did the american people care about people dying in tokyo and berlin? i know this is not the same, but it's similar. after october 7th israel is at total war with hamas. what they don't show on television is probably because they can't. no republican believes this, by the way. no republican telling israel to change their military tactics because i don't know how to change them. i think the goal of destroying hamas is important for israel and really important for the palestinians and hamas is making it impossible for israel to fight without hurting innocent people. >> there's the humanitarian aspect which we were just talking about. >> yeah. >> then there's the strategic question which you have experience with in other parts of the world when the u.s. has been in conflicts and so i want to go back to what you alludeded to which is what the defense secretary lloyd austin said yesterday. he said if you drive civilians into the arms of the enemy you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat which he's saying that civilian casualties could create even more enemies. does he have a point? >> no. he's so naive. i mean, i just lost all confidence in this guy. i thought folks protecting our soldiers, men and women in syria and iraq, strategic defeat would be inflaming the palestinians. they're already inflamed. they're taught from the time they're born to hate the jews to kill them. they're taught in math if you kill ten jew how many are left. israel is fighting not just hamas, but the infrastructure around hamas. look what happened to the israeli hostages when they were presented to the palestinian population? it' it's beyond naive and strategic failure is letting hamas stand. when hamas is defeated what happens next? that's what i want the arab world, the united states and the western world to come in with a governing plan different than we have today for the palestinian people. i want to come in for a better life for the palestinian people after you destroy hamas. >> well, a couple of things there. one is you said you've lost confidence now in secretary austin? >> oh, yeah. totally. >> you've been a supporter. >> i like secretary austin as a person, but this war has shown to me he doesn't understand. if we were attacked like this, which we were on 9/11, if someone called for us within two months to have a ceasefire against al qaeda, we would have laughed them out of town and run them out of town. secretary austin is telling israel things that are impossible to achieve. secretary austin, the reason palestinians are dying, gaza is so condensed, hamas has tunnels under apartments, under schools, under hospitals. if you've got a better idea about how to destroy hamas, pass it on. quit criticizing israel in public. >> want to move on, but just to quickly follow up. you well know that general stanley mcchrystal in another war has called, i think what secretary austin was referring to, insurgent math. each innocent person that is killed ultimately creates new insurgents. do you agree with that? >> i get the theory. here's what i would tell general mcchrystal and austin, the population has been radicalized for decades. do you not get that? do you know what they teach in the schools? the idea that israel is radicalizing people in gaza it's ridiculous, they've been radicalized by hamas for years. >> senator, i want to talk about what you and the congress will do. as you well know there's a big tug-of-war over foreign aid to israel and ukraine. you and your fellow republicans want to include border security and new immigration restrictions. >> yes. >> you haven't been able to make a deal yet. would you still vote for that foreign aid if immigration is not included? >> no. i think the votes for israel apart from the package. republicans overwhelmingly support israel, so do most democrats. republicans are divided about ukraine and if you want aid to ukraine we need to control our southern border. we're having, dana, 9,000 people a day come for the last week. there's no end to this wave of illegal immigration. you have to change your asylum laws and your parole laws to stop the flow. so i will not vote for any aid until we secure our own border. reform our parole, it's possible to do. democrats don't want to do it. i'm not helping ukraine until we help ourselves. >> senator, you said this week that texas governor greg abbot should send migrants to states like rhode island, connecticut when democratic senators opposed this new stricter asylum provision that you want. have you heard back from governor abbott? >> no, i'll go visit. here's the problem pr. you have 11 democratic senators resisting signing the laws attracting so many illegal immigrants. 6 million people were encountered in texas in 2023. it's been overrun. what i'm telling governor abbott, why don't you send thousands of these illegal immigrants to the states where these senators wrote the letters, rhode island, massachusetts, connecticut, oregon and let them understand what it's like to live with a broken border. the towns in texas along the border are virtually being destroyed. 6 million people have come into our country illegally in fy-23 with no end in sight. >> what do you say to those who say that these are human beings and they're not pawns on a chess board and just moving them to different states may not be the most humane move if you want to make a political point? >> well, is it inhumane to live in connecticut, massachusetts, oregon, rhode island? it's about making it real to people who refuse to fix the problem. i've been involved? immigration reform for decades. this is a national security problem. we have a completely broken border. afghanistan had the rice in terrorism and now you have hamas and israel. this this is not about fixing a broken immigration system, it's about fixing a broken border. to my democratic colleagues if you don't understand what is the overwhelming effect, look what happened to new york. the mayor and governor of new york are begging for help. to my democratic colleagues who want texas to bear this burden, forget it. they should be sending them to you. it's not inhumane to live in connecticut. >> let's talk about the 2024 campaign trail. donald trump called obama care a disaster last night in iowa after reiterating his calls to repeal it. you, of course, voted to repeal obama care when trump was president. do you think this is a winning issue right now? would you like to see another vote again? >> yeah. here's what -- good question. this is what we try to do, let's block the grant money to administer obama care is controlled by bureaucrats you'll never meet. let's take that money, send it back to the states and make sure it's spent on health care and see if governors and state legislators can come up with better ways -- >> so you're okay with this issue? >> i would want the power out of washington and back to the states. >> i should block, grant it back to the states rather than let bureaucrats in washington run our health care. socialized medicine didn't work. get it in the hands of the people closest to the patient. >> senator, before i let you go i want to ask you about your fellow republican former congresswoman liz cheney. she has a new book out. she sat down for an interview this weekend and she said she's worried that the chance of a second trump presidency means the u.s. is, quote, sleepwalking into a dictatorship. you, of course, have endorsed donald trump. what's your reaction? >> yeah. yeah. i think a continuation of the biden presidency would be a disaster for peace and prosperity at home and abroad. our border is broken. the only person that will fix a broken border is donald trump. whenn when he was president nothing fls going on in ukraine and i think liz's hatred of trump is real and i understand why people don't like what he does and says at times, but in terms of actions and results he was far better president than biden and if we have four more years of this, liz cheney, we won't recognize america and the world will be truly on fire. >> senator lindsay graham, thank you very much for joining me this morning. i appreciate it. thank you. less than a year until election day and progressives have a warning for president biden. the chairwoman of the progressive caucus pramila jayapal is here. it's just six weeks ununtil iow and a lot of action there this weekend. we will talk about that coming up. welcome back to "state of the union." with the collapse of the temporary truce between israel and hamas here in the u.s. democratic divisions over the direction of the war and biden's support for israel are once again on full display. here with me now is house progressive caucuswoman pramila jayapal. it's nice to see you in person. let's start with where we are right now with the war. the white house says very clearly that hamas is to blame for the collapse of this temporary truce for a few reasons. one is that they refuse to release the remaining women, some of whom, sounds like most of whom are 20 to 30-year-old woman. they're hostage inside gaza. they also renewed the military attacks against israel. you have repeatedly called for israel to implement an indefinite ceasefire, but given what we have just seen with what i just described, is that realistic? >> well, it's what has to happen, and i do think it's realistic. i think what we saw is after many weeks of saying we couldn't get to a ceasefire. that was not going to happen, we did have a temporary ceasefire and what happened? we were table to see a significant number of hostages released. we were able to get humanitarian aid into gaza, and i think the long term plan for what happens is incredibly important. now you've seen vice president harris make a very strong statement yesterday, secretary -- defense secretary lloyd austin also was very clear that if you engage in urban warfare in the way that israel did in northern gaza, what you will do is perhaps win a temporary victory or reprieve, but you're not going to win the long-term strategic war. so the only way, dana, to get through this is to make sure that, first of all, do not have the kinds of casualties that we saw in northern gaza. there's no way to do that with the kind of war that israel is waging right now on gaza. >> a couple of things. one is you said it worked. yes, there were hostages who were released, but it wasn't even an actual hard ceasefire. they were just trying to get another day and hamas wouldn't comply. so what makes you think that hamas would comply with a longer term ceasefire? >> think this is all about negotiation. qatar has been incredibly helpful here. it's not clear to me from the reporting who is to blame -- >> you don't believe the biden ad administration that hamas --? i think it's very complicated. we don't have all of the information in front of us and we can rely on some stapletemen that were made and in this negotiation everyone wants something and israel should still be at the table and some of the hostages, the israeli hostages are saying that israel should still be at the table because this is complex negotiation, and it doesn't happen unless both sides are willing to come to some kind of an agreement. that's how we got the first seven days. >> that's an important point on both sides about both sides being willing to come to an agreement because regardless of what happened last week and say there is a more permanent ceasefire, you are hearing from hamas leaders over and over again that the brutal massacre of the 1200 israeli civilians was just the beginning, just a rehearsal and that they want to continue to do it over and over again. so a ceasefire would keep that brutal terrorist regime in place in gaza. >> i don't think that's true. i think that what is true is that hamas needs to be 10 out. >> how would you do that. >> it's to create a durable and strong coalition of allies within the middle east, with the united states, with israel to make sure that we have a long term political solution, that there is an at malternative for hamas to lead and to establish a state for palestinians. i mean, we cannot, we have to condemn what hamas did on october 7th. we cannot allow for 15,000 palestinians to date to have been killed. three-quarters of whom are women and children and say that that is going to help us in the long term. morally, dana, morally, but also strategically, for israel, the only way through this is to create a situation where there is a political solution that involves a palestinian state and an israeli state. >> i think ideally what you're talking about could make sense. it's just unclear how you get from here to there. who's going to get rid of hamas if -- if -- if there's no continued war and i think what you're relying on is the pressure from arab states and they haven't been willing to do that. >> well, part of the reason they haven't been willing to do that is because we have been allowing israel to literally indiscriminately bomb hospitals, v violate international humanitarian law. >> even pre-october 7th. can i just ask you one more thing about that, you have seen the information and intelience that hamas has used its own civilians and the death of civilians has been horrendous and they've used their own civilians as shields. those hospitals are places where hamas keeps weapons and keeps its hamas leadership that they had their headquarters there. >> dana, international humanitarian law says that you cannot attack a hospital unless there is -- there are some circumstances, if rockets are fired from that hospital that is one thing, but hospitals are protected. we have had refugee camps that are bombed. right now there are even the only pediatric hospital in gaza is not operating. if we want to defeat terrorists, we have to abide by international humanitarian law. that is just my fundamental belief and that it at the end of the day what we need is a lasting coalition and that is not going to be formed if israel continues to do what they are doing and the united states cannot be backers of this kind of indiscriminate bombing. that is my firm belief. we should have conditions on military aid in the same way that we do for every other country. >> i want to ask you about sexual violence, and the -- it's kind of remarkable that had issue hasn't gotten enough attention globally. widespread use of rape, brutal rape, sexual violence against israeli women by hamas. i've seen as lot of progressive women generally speaking, they're quick to defend women's rights and speak out against using rape as a weapon of war, but what we saw on october 7th what might be happening inside gaza to these hostages. >> i'm not sure that that's true. we've always talked about the impact of war on women in particular. >> have you talked about it since october 7th? >> i've condemned all of the actions. >> specifically against women? >> rape, of course. i think we have to remember that israel is a democracy. that is why they are a strong ally of ours and if they do not comply with international humanitarian law they are bringing themselves to a place that makes it much more difficult strategically for them to be able to build the kinds offal slys, to keep public opinion with them and frankly, morally, i think we cannot say that one war crime deserves another. that is not what international humanitarian law says. >> okay. with respect, i was just asks about the woman and you bring it back to israel. >> i answered your question, dana. i said it's horrific and rape is horrific, sexual assault is horrific and i think it happens in war situations and terrorist organizations like hamas are obviously using this as tools and 15,000 palestinians have been killed in israeli air strikes, three quarters of whom -- >> you don't see israeli soldiers. >> i don't want this to be the hierarchy of oppressions. 15,000 people have been killeded. >> it shouldn't be. >> which is horrible. >> 2.2 million palestinians live in 140 square-mile area which is about the size of las vegas with a population that is four times that of las vegas and 1.8 million palestinians right now are displaced. they are living in shelters. they are bei