and he was in 2020, it's true, this is not the joe biden of 2020. which is why you are hearing so many people ask, is this the only option. does the democratic party have to nominate him at the convention, and if not, who could possibly take his place? to be clear. president biden by the numbers alone has had a highly successful presidency. he has gotten a lot done, and made a lot of bipartisan deals that would have arguably eluded another president. but it is increasingly clear he can't exactly sell it. so is there a person who can take all of that and pitch themselves as the best person to extend that record. we have some of the names being thrown around. we have the polling on where those people stand and what an explanation about what an open convention would look like, what the process is from an expert who knows. first, there's also the open question of whether president biden can turn things around. and perhaps the best argument for that was the president biden we just saw a moment ago, on the stage, in north carolina. >> donald trump isn't just a convicted felon, donald trump is a one man crime wave. his biggest lie, he lied about how he had nothing to do with the insurrection of january 6th. [ booing ] we also saw it with our own eyes. trump things overturning roe v. wade was a beautiful thing. i think it was a nightmare. no, i really mean it. a nightmare. and i made it clear again last night, that if you elect me and kamala, we will make roe v. wade the law of the land again. three times trump was asked last night by the moderators, would he respect the election results if he lost this time. three times he refused to answer. i know i'm not a young man. state the obvious. i don't walk as easily as i used to, i don't speak as smoothly as i used to, i don't debate as well as i used to, but i know what i do know, i know how to tell the truth. i know -- i know right from wrong. and i know how to do this job. i know how to get things done. and i know like the millions of americans know, when you get knocked down, you get back up. i give you my word i would not be running again if i didn't believe with all of my heart and soul, i can do this job. >> let's dive in. joining us now in raleigh, north carolina, at that rally, nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli. punch bowl cofounder and msnbc political contributor, jake sherman, former communications director for hillary clinton's 2016 campaign, and msnbc political analyst, jen palmieri, and presidential historian and professor of history at rice university, douglas brinkley, so can you explain the difference between the two men, the one we saw last night and the one we see told. it is whiplash. >> reporter: i think the president biden we saw on stage in raleigh today was as good as the president biden we saw that in the a debate last night was concerning for the democrats who were watching. i think this was a critical opportunity for the president to address those concerns. if everything had gone according to plan, that debate last night as the campaign viewed it was the beginning of a process to try to jar those undecided, uncommitted, uninterested voters, those who were double haters, especially, to begin tuning in to this ways, and to see the choice as clearly as they see it. if all had gone to plan, today's rally would have been an opportunity to keep building that momentum as they move forward in this campaign. but instead, this rally was a very well timed opportunity for the president to try to address those concerns head on. and so i spoke with a senior adviser after the debate or after today's rally, and they said, listen, he didn't need to see the bad coverage. he didn't need to hear what some democrats are saying publicly and privately to know that he had a bad debate last night. he was able to sit down with his team and in a more blunt way. address the reality of what happened last night, and with a little more humility, bring that to the table today. i think it was also significant, katy, that, one, he was on a teleprompter, which he was not last night, and frankly it's hard to remember most speeches the president gives these days where he is not on teleprompter or reading from notes. he didn't have that last night. he had an extremely enthusiastic crowd as i saw talking to them, and knew just how bad it was, and wanted to be there to support him. it was as good of a crowd as i have heard in all the rallies i have attended this year. all of that led to a stronger performance for biden. what was the outlier, was it last night, the state of the union earlier this year, was it what we saw on stage today, can he give a consistent performance in the middle that will get them through the next days or do they need to consider something else. >> the rally, the way he spoke, what he was saying, how clear he was about the differences between him and president trump, what he wants to do for the next four years. that was very clear. well delivered today. i think it's the best i have seen joe biden in four years, and that's the most enthusiastic crowd i have seen for joe biden. if that joe biden showed up last night, there would be no questions today. last night was supposed to be the answer to the question of his age, and he fell down trying to answer that question. today wasn't supposed to be the answer to last night, it was supposed to build off last night. i wonder, you're so close to the biden team. is anybody having a serious conversation about what happens next? if he keeps sounding and looking like this every single day, that's one thing. if there's another stumble, are they having a conversation about whether he should be the nominee? and if so, who is the person that can help him get to the point where he thinks it's best to step aside. >> it's really interesting, katy, what the rest of the president's itinerary today and the days ahead, he's going to be traveling to new york, where he has multiple fundraisers on tap today and into the weekend. those are the audience of people who react perhaps most viscerally to what they saw last night, or the most concerned, most likely to be sounding the alarm loudly, and might be able to bring it to the president's own face. he's going to be taking a lot of that in the next few days, he's also then going to have private time. there are comparisons being made to the 2012 debate, and president obama out with a tweet in the last few minutes, supporting president biden saying he knows a thing or two about bad debates. it's a very different situation for so many reasons, but the one commonality, and jen can speak to this from her experience as well is that sometimes a president is in a double. president biden who alone has prided himself on sort of being a visceral campaigner, somebody who's tactile, feeds off other people's impressions has had a lot more barriers to that since he has been president, and sometimes it takes a moment like this to jar you loose. a lot of close advisers are in the same boat he is, frankly. they may have had questions about whether he would run. they are fully committed to it, and strongly defending hymn amid the doubts. and the first lady with a statement as well. she sent her message as clearly as she could, and what she said at the rally, and what she wore, she wore a black dress with the words votes all over it. >> it's very clear what she wanted to say. mike memoli, thank you very much. jake, you have been talking to people all day. one of the things i heard, if democratic lawmakers come out publicly and say they don't think he should be running, things could change. are you hearing that from democratic lawmakers? >> yeah, but not on the record, and that's what you're referring to, katy. let me break this down for a second. the reality i heard this morning in the capitol was that basically the fact is hitting democratic lawmakers between the eyes that joe biden had an audience of, what, 48, 50 million people last night, and fell flat on his face. if you're a democratic lawmaker, you want to win the presidency, of course, but you also want to win reelection, and the top of the ticket matters, and there were, you know, 200 house democrats, not all of them are in competitive seats, but some of them might be finding themselves in more competitive seats if joe biden isn't holding his weight. and i think i've heard this up and down from moderates, liberals, the entire spectrum of the democratic caucus, and what was most stunning to me is the top of the party, start with nancy pelosi. it took her a little while to figure out what she wanted to say. we caught up with her outside of the elevator when she was leaving. it was a bad night, but biden is going to go out and talk about that. we don't need a new nominee. the fact that it took her a little bit to figure out what he was going to say and listen, i have been covering nancy pelosi for a long time, she's not one who has to figure out what she's going to say. she's a sharp, quit witted politician. hakeem jeffries was asked by one of our colleagues, you know, is bind the best messenger. hakeem jeffries responsible for the reelection of house democrats. he said i'm not going to talk about the way forward until i hear from biden at his campaign. he was asked if biden is the best messenger. you could tell, katy, that an uneasy pal, let's call it, has fallen over the house democratic caucus as they watch that debate, and grimaced. i heard from people last night saying it's over, it's over, and remember, i want to reemphasize this. this is, if very few people with all respect to daytime television, which you and i love, and we hope 50 million people are watching, 48 million people tuned into the debate. not nearly, not a fraction of that will see his performance at that raleigh rally today. it's interesting that he had a good rally. i'll give him that. last night's debate was an extension level event for democrats. they believe if trump wins the presidency, they are winning the house, and winning the senate. it's going to be an all republican washington again. >> david plouffe last night called it def con 1. democrats have said as jake was mentioning, it is a bad thing for the republicans to win. for donald trump to win, republicans to win the house, the senate. it's bad for diplomatically. bad for rights. anybody that saw what happened on january 6th understands why would make that argument. if joe biden stumbles again, what should the democratic party do sfl. >> this is what i think has happened this morning. we are in not even an hour by hour minute, 30 minute by 30 minute in terms of how people are reacting to this, and the stakes for biden. i believe he has weathered the first wave of the storm. leader jeffrey's statement, that was a surprise to me, for the house democratic leader to basically say i'm going to wait and see how he does. but the truth is, as you can imagine, as all of us have, i have talked to dozens of people, possible, you know, just like people who might run. people who were talking about running. doe -- donors, house members, everybody. the three things that have happened that righted the ship for biden, he raised $14 million. the campaign showed that broeks groups, undecided broke their way, and the third thing is the performance right now in north carolina, and the truth is the only way this is going to change to have a different nominee is if joe biden himself decides that he needs to step aside, and that is not happening. not after those three things have happened, and after those three things happened, no one is going to try to push him out because the threat of what we're facing is just too hard. democrats, we like to fuss and we fret, and sometimes that is to our detriment. it's also why we still have a republic. we don't blindly follow our leader off a cliff. and i think people pause to take stake -- >> that's what people are doing, and i respect what the independent said and focus groups, and you know, that may be the case going toward, but there are also people out there who are saying it's not even just about joe biden getting elected in november, but joe biden doing the job for four more years, jen, and if last night was an indicator of how he is off a chemical prompter, can he do the job the next four years. he's well into his 80s at that point. >> we'll see if he can do a decent job as president, and voters will make the decision. the question that democrats are wrestling with, is he still the best person to take donald trump on. and i have to tell you, at 3:05 this afternoon, i think people are coming back around to the point that it is not perfect, but you can't -- you know, there's just not any scenario for moving forward with another option that seems to end with a democratic winning in november, and this is still our best chance and people need to have his back and just move forward, and you talk about the threat that donald trump is to democracy, to women, you have his back, and you just go. and that, you know, if people thought there was another way that would result in something better than joe biden saying in the race, i think we would see that scenario advancing itself now, and it's not. >> do you agree? >> the big point i agree with, this is in joe biden's hands. they have to decide whether they should stay in or not. people talk about joe biden being stubborn. but where does that cross over into selfishness. >> they're wonders if he's ruth bader ginsburg here. >> exactly. and last night's debate performance was abysmal. he came out looking like a half zombie, half mole, bobbling, everything coming his way, having glazed looks. it seemed like today we get the reset in raleigh, but you're wondering if we're in need of a march 31st, 1968 moment said enough, and i'm stepping aside. he had to do that, lyndon johnsonnd. there wasn't anybody forcing him to. joe and joe biden have to believe this is the best for the country, and i don't know if they have other advisers, who could say let's break this open and bring other people into the mix. it's up to him what card he plays this. >> one thing i was instruct by, we saw this on our own air, and also from people in the political world. people love joe biden. they think he has done a great job. he has the numbers to prve it. he's made bipartisan deals, things are in an upward trajectory. they like him a lot. they also feel like it's just time for him to step aside. they feel sadness. they also feel fear because this idea that donald trump is a threat is something the biden team says, democrats say, but a lot of people out there who want to vote for the democrat or anybody but trump believe that as well. there's fear that if joe biden continues on that donald trump is going to be president. >> there is fear, and look, you know, we didn't have the third party aspect last night, but with the one abcs doing, you might have john thrown in there. >> you're going to see teleprompter joe biden. keep him off talk shows, news shows. >> is that a good idea. >> if not, we have a couple of scenarios, letting kamala harris be president, giving her a big boost and ranking the history of the first woman president in the united states and create an excitement. or break it open in august, which is tough. there's not one other option to buy, and there are like 15 of them. >> 1968 was a disaster. hubert humphrey was a disaster and, that's what happened after lbj stepped aside. we're going to talk about 1968 and open conventions in a minute. i'm curious to see if it could possibly be successful. thank you so much. everyone, thank you for starting us off. i know it's a tough conversation. more on what some democrats are calling for after the debate. what would an option convention looked like. who are the names for candidates being thrown out there. we have polling on those people in a moment. we have donald trump. he did not tell the truth last night not even by a long shot. he lied and lied and lied. we'll give you what he said and the truth behind it in a moment. also, a significant supreme court decision today, a couple of them. we've got one on the january 6th rioters, and an obstruction charge. and another on a case that could blow up case law in this country co. don't go anywhere, we're back in 90 seconds. re back in t90 seconds smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections, cancers including lymphoma, muscle problems, and changes in certain labs have occurred. tell your doctor if you have an infection, liver or kidney problems, high 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for a very specific reason. this is a place that received visits from donald trump and joe biden. polls show that bide withinen is winning black voters overwhelm willing but falling short of what he achieved in 2020. when i asked all three who said they voted for biden in 2020, how they're feeling afterwards. >> i thought he stumbled, you know, it happened. i thought a trump was unhinged for 90 straight minutes. >> i think that because he was a little bit more fluid throughout, i didn't think that that one moment took away from everything else that he had to say. >> if the election were tomorrow, who would you vote for? me. i would rote for boyden, for sure. >> would that have been your answer before the debate. >> no, i wasn't sure. >> reporter: the thing is, katy, these are folks who sat there and watched every moment of the debate, at points, taking note, because they see the conversation after wards. they hear clips and moments from the debates, and the big thing in a city like philadelphia, it's not just about biden being able to win back voters he won in 2020, but it's about making sure that voters show up, making sure they turn out, and when i asked if they have enough evidence to be able to convince other people to go out and vote. that's the answers started to get a little bit more murky. it's clear there is more work president biden will have to do in a place he should be doing well. >> enthusiasm was so key in 2020, it helps president biden win. the enthusiasm to vote against donald trump. will that enthuse yaz m. and joining us, rick wilson. so donald trump last night lied a whole lot. at one point he talked about how democrats want to abort babies outside of the womb, that the babies delivered and the doctor puts it aside, and says we'll figure