it sm romney and those he wants to represent went silent on this. he whined a bit about democrat congresses not doing this before. democrat when used as an adjective is what republicans use when frustrated. democrat congresses. but tonight, the people raring to grab the the white house remain tongue tied. the president proved again he knows how to use his office. if being the incumbent forces him to play defense, it doesn't stop him from playing offense. joining me now are two of the top political thinkers. john heilemann and david corn of mother jones. both are distinguished authors. david with his musings in "showdown." let's take a look at the latest commentary. the one i want to look at tonight the mitt romney and how he started this campaign. he was even further to the right on immigration, the rest of the far right wing in this campaign. he tangled with newt gingrich for example back in january and let's listen to how he positioned himself on the far right, the most anti-immigration policy. here he is. >> is he still the most anti-immigrant candidate? >> i think of the the four of us, yes. >> go ahead, governor. >> that's inexcusable. that's inexcusable. >> you tell me what language you would use to explain that deporting a grand mer or grandfather from their family, just tell me a language. i'm perfectly happy for you to explain what language you'd use. >> mr. speaker, i think i described following the law, as it exists in this country which is to say i'm not going to round people up and deport them. people who come here legally get a work permit. people who do not, do not. those who don't get work over time will self-deport. >> self-deport. romney planted to the right of rick perry as well. let's listen to that. >> if you've been in the state of texas for three years, if you're working towards your college degree and if you are working and pursuing citizenship in the state of texas, you pay instate tuition there. >> with regards to illegal immigration, of course we'd build a fence and of course we do not give instate tuition credits to people who have come here illegally. that only attracts people to continue to come here and talk advantage of america's great benefits. >> when the january 16th gop debate, mitt romney laid out his hard line on immigration. let's listen to that. >> i think we have to follow the law and insist those that have come here illegally ultimately return home, apply, get in line with everyone else. >> well, there you have it. i want to start with david corn. seems to me he's laid out the law will be enforced. it will be enforced with a terror if not. if it hasn't been before. in other words, you go home where you came from, where your parents brought you here from and wait in some line that's there waiting for you to join and start all over again in life and that's the deal i'm offering you people who came here without papers. that's the romney line. how's it going to stack up against obama who's now offered to not basically go after anybody under 30 who came here under 16. >> what romney has done is put himself into a pair of cement shoes. he has taken the most extreme position you have -- i'm not saying it's an unprincipled position. it's a logical severely conservative position which is we're not going to do anything about the 12 million people who are undocumented or anything about the 12 -- their kids. everyone has to go home and that's it, end of story. it's a consistent position. it doesn't match reality. because i can't work as a policy and really doesn't match political reality, which is why he's been so tongue tied since the president took offensive on this on friday. >> how is this any different than the big boat argument? people when he came african-americans after the civil war. decided put him on a boat and send him back where they came from. he says that in polite language, but that's what he's been saying. get home where you came from. start all over again. >> he is right when he says it has been the law of the land and it's a -- it's not -- >> but everybody knows there will be an accommodation at some point. >> everyone thinks it helps their well being. i think what the president done is the right thing to do. but the policy thing is going to be either worked out on a bipartisan basis or in the romney administration. there's got to be bipartisan support. romney's problem is this puts him on the wrong side of maybe the most important demographic group in the electorate right now. a group where republicans are in serious long-term trouble and romney has put himself in serious short-term trouble because he's made himself terminally unpopular with latino voters. and if he doesn't get 36, 37, 38, more like 40%, he can't win the election. >> bob schieffer asked him the question. here is his answer. he had no responses to repeated attempts to try to get an answer on what he thought about president obama's executive order friday which allows people under age 30 who came under age 16 to basically stay. let's listen. >> would you repeal this order if you became president? >> well, let's step back and look at the issue. with regards to these kids brought in by their parents through no fault of their own, there needs to be a long-term solution. >> but would you repeal this? >> it would be overtaken by events, if you will, by my virtue of putting in place a long-term solution. >> would you leave this this place while you worked out a long-term solution? >> we'll look at that setting as we reach that. >> that's almost as good as not doing the sunday shows. i mean, we wondered why he wouldn't do the sunday shows. he did show up like woody allen but didn't answer the questions. we got a whole bunch later in the show. why did he show up? it's on sunday. what do you think happened on friday? >> that's a very good question. i think he made the agreement to go be on the show before he knew that barack obama was going to make this. before he knew -- this is a pretty dramatic thing obama did on friday. not something the romney campaign anticipated him doing. i'm not making excuses for romney here. he should have an answer, but the thing before, which is that he does not, he's trying to etch sketch his way out of the position he took in the primary. which is he was against the dream act. he's in this place further to the right than any other republican candidate. but he can't be there and win the election so now, he's trying in some way to get a holding pattern here. so he can eventually start to slide away from his own position. >> seems like this is one area where romney has stuck himself so far to the right. we've often asked how far he can etch a sketch his way. if you spend the whole fight saying i'm going to be the toughest person on hispanic people here. the right of newt, the the right of perry, the right of santorum, ron paul especially, i'm so far right, you can't get to my right and then says by the way, i'm doing an about face. i'd like to get some hispanic votes. can he get away with it? >> this is the perfect encapsulation. he went far right and you played the clip, chris, when he said there is only one solution here. people go back to where they came from no matter what then we deal with it then. then when bob schieffer asked him the same question, three, four times, not only does he not have an answer, well, i'm going to do a long-term solution. what do you mean? he already gave us his solution. his solution was to send them back, self-deport, whatever you call it. so he has a solution, he just can't talk about it now. and the fact that he knew on friday this was happening, he did the interview i think on saturday, and couldn't answer the question. it's his campaign running ads that say on day one i'm going to do this and do that. on day one. what's he going to do day one about this directive? apparently he doesn't know and doesn't have a clue. >> the people have come from the hispanic backgrounds, who knows how many generations. they're going to have to think about this guy's emotional state. why he was so comfortable about taking that anti-immigration position. on one issue, they're pretty good. here's bill crystal of the neo-conservative with the weekly standard praising president obama's order on friday. he said romney's got trouble here. >> i think it's a sensible policy. if that was the law of the land. i think the president's pushing the limits and saying we're not going to enforce a law in order to meet these people in the country, but i think it's the right thing to do, actually. i think this is a big problem for romney. he needs to take the lead on this. embrace marco rubio's act. say let's pass this in congress over the next two months. this is what i'm for. >> this must scare david corn to have a guy that's as far right. to say you're so far out you're in trouble here. >> also i'm waiting iffer in business community. remember, the business community doesn't take this hard line of immigration that romney took to get the tea partiers on his side. >> right. i know that. >> therest a split within the republican party here. but i think bill is behind the times here. so there's no way at this point in time that romney can take the lead on this. he's already said he's not that interested in the marco rubio approach. so if he embraces it, we have yet another flip-flop on romney. i think he's shot himself in the foot and he can kiss a lot of the latino vote good-bye. i don't know what he's going to do to get it back. >> i also wondered how americans up to date on politics would take a republican position when it's so clearly that party has identified it as anti-gay rights. here you have another pretty direct statement by romney. i'm not on your side on immigration issues. >> to answer the question you asked -- you'll get first. bill crystal, there's a bright line between those people who recognize demographic equality and those who don't. he was sitting on that interview set on fox with karl rove. another guy who recognized that republicans had to be right wit hispanics. george w. bush. this is we're recognized demographic reality and those who don't. as for latinos, if you go around focus groups in the southwest, there are older hispanics who resent illegal immigrants as much as some white americans do. >> what is the reaction to people that don't like them though? it's one thing to have a conservative view on the law. what do you do when you hear there are people in politics that don't you like you because you're mexican-american? >> i think it's hard to get someone to vote for you if you think you believe -- hates you as an ethnic group. but let's be clear. there is in the hispanic community, there's not a uniform view about what to do about illegal immigration. >> they'll tell you -- go ahead. >> on this particular issue when we're talking about kids who have been brought here through no fault of their own. we're not talking about people who have snuck in and been here 20 years, who are adults. this is about as sympathetic a group you can get on immigration reform. and for romney to be behind on this, it's a big gap that he's not going to be able to close. even if he takes bill crystal's advice. >> i think he made a calculated decision to win the the nomination and then fight from then on. do whatever it took to get the nomination, go as far right on every single issue. taxes, foreign policy, iran, mexican americans coming here. every issue. you could get to the right, go as far right as you could, calculate it you can do some pir ro wets, etch scratches or etch a sketches. and later in the campaign make some adjustments and people would forgive you. i think they're not going to forgive this character. thank you, john heilemann and david corn. coming up, dirty, angry money. what do you want? let's go inside the koch brothers machine. they've got their own political party it seems. and jerry sandusky. the defense has begun its case such as it is. can you imagine what this defense is going to be? big question. will he take the stand and confront these awful charges? plus, blind ambition. mitt romney wants to be president, but why can't he say what he'd do if he was president? he keeps doing it. he shows up but doesn't answer questions. let me finish tonight with what makes the idea of a romney presidency so dangerous. this is "hardball" the place for politics. s important to any successful business. which is why at wells fargo, we work with you to get to know the unique aspects of your business. we can recommend financial solutions that can work for you that have helped millions of business owners save time, reduce expenses, and maximize cash flow. as the number one small business lender for nine years running... we're with you when you need us. so you can be there for your customers. wells fargo. together we'll go far. mine hurt more! mine stopped hurting faster... [ female announcer ] neosporin® plus pain relief starts relieving pain faster and kills more types of infectious bacteria. neosporin® plus pain relief. for a two dollar coupon, visit neosporin.com. neosporin® plus pain relief. cuban cajun raw seafood pizza parlor french fondue tex-mex fro-yo tapas puck chinese takeout taco truck free range chicken pancake stack baked alaska 5% cashback. signup for 5% cashback at restaurants through june. it pays to discover. baseball great roger clemens is free and clear. he was acquitted today on all six charges including purging obstruction of justice after being accused of lying about steroid use to the u.s. congress. after the verdict, he thanked hi support es. >> it's kind of uncomfortable for me to sit there and hear people talk about you good or bad. but i just want to say i appreciate everyone who came in that rusty and michael and the entire team asked to come in to speak on my behalf. >> wow. well, roger clemens not guilty on all counts. we'll be right back. comes to mind for me is my high school math teacher, dr. gilmore. i mean he could teach. he was there for us, even if we needed him in college. you could call him, you had his phone number. he was just focused on making sure we were gonna be successful. he would never give up on any of us. wow. welcome back to "hardball." if you need a reminder about the dangers of unlimited money flowing into into our political system, look no further than the billionaire koch brothers. they've set their sights on helping the 2012 election. they're doing that with a war chest that resembles an entire political party. their plan calls for spending about $400 million including money from their own pockets as well as from other wealthy friends. politico reports their operations have become increasingly sophisticated including on the ground county by county efforts in key states. this this weekend, they're holding a convention amongst themselves. expected to hand over tens of millions of dollars. much of that money will be spent without having to disclose who gave it. that's key here. and that is not good for any democracy. ken vogel and eugene, i want ken to go through this. tell us about the koch brothers. who are they? how much loot do they have to spend? what are they interests? >> the koch brothers have a vast manufacturing conglomerate really. it's the second biggest private company in the united states. it's involved in everything from oil refining to chemicals to household products. they own georgia pacific which makes brawny paper towels. they've been involved in conservative politics, however in recent years, they have both shifted their ideology. used to be a form of libertarianism and have become more involved, giving more money, consolidating more donors around them and also taking the money that they give and that these donors give and giving it to a wider range of groups so their tentacles truly reach very fall into the conservative movement and the sort of extra party infrastructure where it's arguably they maybe are the most powerful force on the right in politics today. >> gene, you've been studying politics a long time. this seems like a new organism here. something so big where they can reach out anywhere in the country spending 400 million bucks is a lot of money. apparently they don't care about the issues as long as they're republicans. they're pro-right to life. it isn't just oil and gas out there. it's everything republican. >> what's different to my view at least, what's different is number one the koch brothers are billionaires. not just millionaires. they've got virtually unlimited funds. and second, it's all in service of a sort of radical ideology. and they've kind of added these traditional republican causes like the nra like kind of bells and whistles. but the central thrust is really quite radical in terms of where the political center has been in this country for a long time. >> what did they read the fountain head? what moved them? ken, did they -- like a lot of us read those books. we weren't moved politically by them. they're good writing, of course. how do these guys become so fanatical they are dumping a half billion dollars in this campaign. >> we should say this makes them -- has in the past made them sort of difficult to pin down on the traditional partisan spectrum. they opposed the war in iraq. slightly in favor depending who you talk about -- who you talk to on gay rights. they've given money that support drug decriminalization. it's only in recent years they have tacked further to the right and become more of a pragmatic republican machine. there's question between operatives, folks in the establishment who i talked to to what extent they are loyal party soldiers and what extent they are going to punish republicans or democrats but republicans as well from the right for not adhering to their orthodoxy. >> so their own political party. republicans used to defend their call for donations for -- we tell you who we are, who have given money. that's changed. quote, now that they have unlimited donations, or something pretty close, they don't want unlimited disclosure after all. they want why is that? according to haight, they're in no hurry to get it back. and never disclose the donors. i would say it was like the 15 families that run the country, at least you knew who those families were. eugene, the koch brothers don't even like us talking about them right now. i know they don't. go ahead. >> right. they want to be able to promise other big donors that they bring in that, oh, don't worry. nobody will know. and perhaps say boycott your products. or products that your company makes if you're giving to radical causes they don't believe in. but the real impact of this in this election, talking about nearly $400 million. on a presidential level, the obama campaign's going to have enough money. right? they're going to have enough money to compete. but at lower levels, this money undisclosed, unlimited can be decisive. >> you're right. talk about that. you can pitch 20 or 30 congressional races. dump the last weekend money in where there's nobody spending money and what? >> absolutely. you can move the needle in exactly that manner and do it without anybody knowing who you are and do it to the tune of however much you want basically. i mean, it's -- it sounds like we're making this up. it does not sound like our country. this is the way things work now. >> you're running for congress for re-election, all of a sudden somebody starts dumping this money out of nowhere. all of a sudden ads are running about what a stinky poo you are. you've never heard these charges before. and people are by the thousands saying i don't know if i know this guy anymore. must be something to it. where there's smoke there's fire. these ads work, right ken? >> they do work. and they shifted the incentive structure. if you were starting a congressional campaign even five, ten years ago, yo