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Velshi

is not immune from prosecution mean that every president going forward has doubts about the legality of what they're doing, and that doesn't take some decision together frightened of the outcome? part two of his sentence was, am i going to jail for this when my political opponents take power? so, there is an implication in that sentence that, this isn't just a legal discussion. there might be political forces at play. i would like or thought. two sentences, two very different thoughts. >> so significant. so, all this is coming from a case called nixon versus fitzgerald in 1982, where the supreme court said that when a president commits civil actions that turnout possibly to be legal, like firing a whistleblower, he should be immune because he shouldn't have to be second guessing himself, is illegal to fire this guy or not? when the law isn't clear in civil cases, there should be qualified immunity. that is totally different, as judge panels suggesting, in her questions here from ordering the assassination of a political rival or selling

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The Katie Phang Show

litany of court battles. joining me now, nick hackman, former watergate prosecutor and former assistant attorney for the southern district of new york. nick, it's always so good to see you. look, i'm always focusing on this d.c. court of appeals argue that happened this past week. you and i have practiced law for a long time. i have never heard arguments advanced by a lawyer on behalf of any let it get like a heard from john sour this week. nixon versus fitzgerald is a case that was cited repeatedly by donald trump in that came up during those oral arguments repeatedly. one of the remedies that deals with absolute immunity according to nixon versus fitzgerald is the idea that there were deterrent effects on a presidents bad conduct through constant scrutiny by the press in vigilant oversight by congress. i mean, nick, we are not getting that from the press courtesy of the fox news's of the world, et cetera, and you are not getting that vigilant

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The 11th Hour With Stephanie Ruhle

of criminal prosecution during his presidency or after it. the question that judge henderson posed is really about this question of whether or not when a president undertake certain acts, he is among a. munis is a civil case, nixon versus fitzgerald, which does say there's qualified immunity when presidents take certain actions within their scope of as leader and then our sued civilly. it doesn't say anything about actions that maybe outside of the scope of presidential duties. judge henderson is getting in the point that this is really about staying in power. that's not necessarily in line with consistent with the execution of the presidential role in would be a perversion of the office to suggest that the presidents job required him to stop a political rival from lawfully taking office in a duly conducted election. >> katie, jack smith himself, much like donald trump, was in the courthouse.

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The Source With Kaitlan Collins

you are the former white house counsel. i wonder what you made of listening, given you know nixon's conduct as well as anyone and it was actually happening in that administration at that time. there was this argument that this was purely private conduct. that was, by nixon, the argument trump's attorney was making today, that's what it's not relevant to this case. >> kaitlan, that what raising a case that happened after nixon left office went fitzgerald suit nixon for firing him. a couple cabinet officers and other people were trying to make a civil case out of it and nixon invoked the privilege, if you will, at that point that he was immune. the justice department defended him. and they succeeded. we have the case of nixon versus fitzgerald. it is now being relied on by trump, saying that he was doing nothing more than nixon was. it was a very different situation. that was a pure civil situation.

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The 11th Hour With Stephanie Ruhle

what she said? >> i think the entire hearing made clear that there was profound skepticism from all three of the judges of the d. c. circuit for this argument that donald trump had some kind of absolute presidential immunity that shielded him from any kind of criminal prosecution, whether during his presidency or after it. the question that judge henderson posed is really about this question of whether or not when a president undertakes certain official acts, he is immune. munis is a civil case, nixon versus fitzgerald, which does say there's qualified immunity when presidents take certain actions within their scope of as chief executive, and then our suit says nothing about criminal liability it doesn't say anything about actions that maybe outside of the scope of presidential duties. judge henderson is getting in the point that this is really about staying in power. that's not necessarily in line or consistent with the execution of the presidential roll and would be a perversion

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Trump Immunity Appeal

doctrine of immunity in the first instance and that would be a natural thing for the court to do. >> in the specific -- >> yes, if the court holds presidential immunity, then it should be remanded to the district court and then go through the indictment and find factual findings to decide how it applies to the findings, and the court has the authority to do that. if there are no more questions? >> i have one more, and if there are the framework of nixon versus fitzgerald, we are to conduct a balancing act of the asserted immunity versus other public interests, and i see you as trying to represent a need for the executive to have this immunity to facility executive functions, the ability to act without hesitation, to be fearless, to make decisionmaking, to make

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Morning Joe

they're sort of tethering that to a 1982 supreme court case, nixon versus fitzgerald. that case stands for the proposition that a president, if he is acting in his official capacity -- really important distinction -- is immune from civil lawsuits. clearly, defaming ms. carroll and all the other awful things he did to ms. carroll cannot possibly be within the definition of official conduct. presidents don't get to do -- anyone else, for that matter, doesn't get to behave that way and hide behind immunity. it's simply that, mika. it's not official conduct, therefore, he is not immune from liability. therefore, she can proceed against him and win her judgment and hopefully collect on it. >> chuck rosenberg, thank you so much for coming in this morning. we appreciate it. there's so much going on. we will see you again soon. still ahead on "morning joe," secretary of state antony blinken is in israel this morning in his latest diplomatic

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Trump Immunity Appeal

in iraq under false pretenses, and could president obama be potentially charged with murder for authorizing drone strikes on citizens abroad. >> that is the question that trump was raising of what is to be if you open up this pandora's box politically, then everyone is fair game. >> then the argument that james pearce made is that then it would open up presidents to commit a whole host of acts to get away with it. >> both sides are opening up a slippery slope there, and the argument from jack smith side, and speaking of history there, and there is a whole lot of talk from the past and the talk of president nixon who engaged in

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Trump Immunity Appeal

first argument. after nixon, we then see a series of independent and special prosecutors investigating a range of different types of conduct. you saw independent counsel lawrence walsh in the iran contra affair and this is what the defendant invokes in the reply brief and in chapter 27 of that report, the independent counsel assumes that president reagan is subject to prosecution, and he says that we did not get there evidentiarily, and we thought that there was immunity and it has continued through to the present and so this notion of a floodgate, i think that, again, the careful investigations and the clinton era didn't result in any charges. the fact that this investigation did, doesn't reflect that we will see a sea change of vindictive tit-for-tat prosecutions in the future. i think that it reflects fundamentally unprecedented nature of the criminal charges

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Trump Immunity Appeal

clause and the impeachment clause are the foundational law of the country and the president's immunity is based on that and that is more morality than reality as said in nixon versus fitzgerald. and as the indictment is alleging solely criminal act, and it does not say that he did anything after office, and it is solely in office, and that is a telling indication it is official acts here. and so finally, judge henderson, your question in reference to the floodgates and tie that to opposing counsel's frightening future, and the frightening future of presidents seldom prosecuted if they were impeached is the one that we have lived under for 200 years is not a frightening future, but it is the one we have lived under 200 years, and his frightening future is the one that is a chief opponent winning

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