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The Beat With Ari Melber

renato makes a really great point that he might have asked for the subpoena. we have seen him before, he shut down january 6th violation of the separation of powers, can't talk about deliberations, but he did say in a few interviews when he was doing his book tour, that he was willing to talk or he would consider talking to the justice department. so it is possible that he's trying to split the difference. he's not going to volunteer to go up there, but he might listen to a subpoena. it will be interesting to see how much he thinks he has to appear to fight it. listening to our legal friends, i feel like he doesn't have a leg to stand on. >> he's entitled to the process, and the process can add some time, although they can also seek emergency expedited review. the politics which we haven't discussed a ton tonight, mike pence might want to be the republican nominee for president. >> he does. >> the direction of this might hurt other candidates, namely the president he served who at one point was encouraging acts

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The Beat With Ari Melber

>> renato with the wire quote. if you shoot at the king, you best not miss. i think that you're remiding folks that some of what we learned did come from pence's closest aides, his counsel. that goes to something i alluded to earlier. some of those were probably unlawful orders rather than crimes. trump was doing mixing and matching. there were clearly attempted crimes like voter fraud in georgia, and then unlawful orders which in our system of government don't always lead to imprisonment. you had pence's lawyers talking about that and it may be the committee didn't ultimately want to pick a big fight with pence and make him out to be the worse enemy when they were focused on bigger problems. to bring joan into this, let's remind folks we have the december 21st meeting, one of several really horrific, terrible, undemocratic measures that were taken.

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The Beat With Ari Melber

i have 30 second left so i'll ask in a word, your reaction to the news breaking that mike pence is being subpoenaed, in a word, joan walsh. >> important. >> renato. >> explosive. >> there we have it. serious words for a serious time. i want to thank renato and joan, and all of our experts tonight. we had lawyers and journalists. this is one of those times where we threw the show out to bring you the news crossing first from abc, new confirmed by nbc and "the new york times." it is about january 6th. msnbc has you covered on big nights like this. my colleague joy reid is about to helm some coverage. we continue right after a short break. now, there's skyrizi. with skyrizi 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms,

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Ayman

shuffling of papers that happens in the course of transitions. >> i think that definitely makes sense given what we have seen. i wonder what previous presidents are doing right now, if they're going to the library book ensured a dome of classified documents, as well. renato, one final question to you about the special prosecutor. once garland appointed a special counsel to oversee the trump investigation because he was going to be a candidate in the next presidential election, was he backed into a corner to do the same for joe biden? did he need to maintain at least the perception of similarity or consistency in the way he approached these cases? >> it's a very good question. it's 1 million dollar question. a lot of former prosecutors and current prosecutors have been chitchatting and discussing what we thought garland appointed as special counsel. i really think here, it's about perception and about public perception to the justice department, was it necessary, i really think it's not clear to me that there is any reasonable

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Ayman

through every folder, you don't know what is in all of it, and that is why i think it's easy to blame joe biden and the white house for mishandling this. what i think happened is, they were trying to get a handle on this, because they had no idea which papers went where, what was in what box, and they were as surprised as anyone when it showed up. and then when that happened, instead of the smart folks there, they were done what we already said would be done, dump it all at once. i don't think that a full handle on it because i think it was accidental in this massive shuffling of papers that happens in the course of transitions. >> i think that definitely makes sense given what we have seen. i wonder what previous presidents are doing right now, if they're going to the library book ensured a dome of classified documents, as well. renato, one final question to you about the special prosecutor. once garland appointed a special counsel to oversee the trump investigation because he was going to be a candidate in the next presidential election, was he backed into a corner to do the same for joe biden? did he need to maintain at

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Alex Witt Reports

renato, is there -- how they were turned, over or even if joe biden was vice president when he obtained those documents versus trump, who was the outgoing president, while telling his lies that he won the election? >> that is a great question, alex, and i think the important distinction is how the two men were involved with handling those documents. so, for example, donald trump, there were repeated requests, letters, grand jury subpoena, there was actually a personal visit by the justice department, counterintelligence head to mar-a-lago begging ascension for these documents to be returned. trump thumbed his nose at those folks, it is clear he will fully retain those documents. legally, that is very important. based on what we know, now really what appears for former president biden is that he had inadvertently handled these documents, he inadvertently kept them, and that seems to be much more like the hillary clinton situation, where there was a review being conducted to make sure that there was nothing more to it.

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Alex Witt Reports

perceptions of how they work, and it goes back to transparency. voters want more information so that they have a clear idea of what is going on. but certainly the biden ministration is doing what they can to prevent the doj from becoming too politicized, that seems a little difficult, to your point, again, after president trump in the way that he has talked about these two agencies. >> okay, great conversation you guys, thank you for sticking around through the breaking news of the president at the ebenezer baptist church. alexei, and renato, thank you so much. let's go from there now to capitol hill. and also new today, some harsh words for freshman congressman george santos from his from his republican colleagues after his lies for his back run is boiling over. nbc's julia circuit is joining us, we thank you for the weight as well. so, are george santos's colleagues, are there ready to hold him accountable for making up the majority of his personal story? >> look, at least eight of his republican colleagues in the house have called on him to resign, and i do think that is

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Alex Witt Reports

we really haven't heard from an external council that i'm aware of, somebody who is retained personally by president biden, and from the communications team that is associated with that person. what would make sense to me is something more like -- the clinton administration, were you at clinton's private counsel making statements. the white house remaining silent, and being as forthcoming as they can be without obviously compromising anything regarding the justice department. >> renato, thanks but hold on a second, this time yesterday we were digesting statements from the white house cancel. and when you say they could be doing more, you know they went through exactly how this latest batch was discovered, wednesday, at his home, they saw them and they immediately stopped. they said hands off, because the attorney looking for documents or scouring things did not have top security clearance. he waited, came back with fbi, and doj officials, handed

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Alex Witt Reports

everything they did find over to them immediately. that is pretty thorough, they did communicate that. so what more do you think, at this point, they could be doing? >> one thing i will point out, alex, is that yesterday there was confusion about that statement. there was not clear -- there was discussion among reporters and other people ask me questions about whether or not there was multiple documents or multiple pages of a document. >> i asked that question, you're right. but we were told, i renato, that there was at least one document that had two pages to it. i there was one document that had been pound, and there were sides up to ten pages found. and i ask, does that mean five separate documents, one document with five pages to it, we don't know. but, in this situation, you have to be careful about identifying anything. right? you don't want to be giving away anything about the content of top secret items.

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CNN Newsroom

documents back, refused to give them back. he was, you know, he received a grand jury subpoena, refused to comply with that. there was a personal visit from the justice department. they still didn't get the documents back. it wasn't until there was alleged evidence of obstruction of justice that the justice department uexecuted a search warrant at his residence to retrieve the documents without his permission. that's very different, obviously, than the case of president biden, which really to me a better analogy is the hilary email case of 2016 where you have essentially what appears to be inadvertent mishandling of classified documents, a much different case and unlikely to generate charges. >> just to top you will on that, renato, would you say much less legal exposure for biden versus trump? >> no question. i would be very, very, very surprised if there are charges that result from the biden email case. in fact, i think the analogy to

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