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two—state solution could be more just and more implementable, but this train left the station. in a word, and it has to be a word... in a word, and i've known you a long time, have you ever felt more depressed ? no. definitely, no. but, stephen, we cannot finish our show with such a pessimistic vision. let's just remember that many unexpectable things happen in history, and we could not expect them. let's remember an expression which is not mine, that in this part of the world, one should be realistic enough to believe in miracles. so let's believe in miracles. gideon levy, thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thanks.
don't you dare to feel empathy with gaza because then you will be really in trouble. if you are jewish. .. come on, gideon, you... you haven't been silenced. you're one of the most powerful voices on your newspaper. i say if you are arab israeli, and then i say if you arejewish, be also aware. i wasn't silenced in my newspaper, but i was silenced on israeli tv and in other places. and don't complain, i have full freedom. i really don't complain. but by the end of the day, the feeling is that paying empathy now with gaza is an act of treason, no less than this. i don't remember such a phenomena ever before, so this should worry me as an israeli. this should more worry me. where are we reaching it? and above all, stephen, the role of the media. i cannot ignore this, because this time the israeli media play the role that i never saw before. i mean, we were always
israel is considered the only democracy in the middle east. we don't want to be compared neither to sudan nor to syria, nor to libya. we are something else. and, yes, stephen, there is a special sentiment toward thejewish people throughout israel. the story of israel is a very unique one. you cannot compare it to any other country. and still, nothing will make it easierfor me, and for any man of conscience, any person of conscience, what's going on now in gaza. nothing of those things about the special case of israel, the special history of israel, obviously the barbaric attack on the 7th, nothing of this should be forgotten. but by the end of the day, what is happening now in gaza is unforgivable. and all those things are very strong and very powerful, but they don't do anything to the facts on the ground.
no doubt about it. the only question is if this permits us to do everything and anything, violating any international law article. and above all, let's look at the mirror. is this what we want? does it serve us? those thousands of children killed, and women, what does it serve israel? are we in a more secure place today than three months ago? no... but my point is that the vast majority of israelis disagree with you. does it ever strike you that maybe, on this occasion, you've got it wrong? stephen, you know me for many years — i was always quite lonely. i was always being held as lunatic or wrong or anti—israeli or a self—hating jew. and i never thought that i'm wrong. and looking backwards, when i look at my positions in the past, my only self—criticism is that i wasn't radical enough.
will lead us to anywhere. the fact that vivian was killed, does it help now that we kill 1,000 vivians in gaza? does it help to anyone? one of the most recurrent messages in your columns in haaretz since october 7th and since the israeli military operation was launched has been this increased alarm you seem to feel at the dehumanisation of palestinians by the mass of israelis, and you seem to see a total lack of empathy. but don't you exaggerate when you say, as you've said recently, that israel, quote, "is going mad. mccarthyism and fascism reign." you are...you are devaluing what israel is, are you not? no, stephen, because i see the phenomena and i always know how it starts and you never know how it goes on. and the beginning is very, very worrying because people
a third, a fourth, "because we have the determination, the resolve "and the capabilities. " you're just saying, "oh, you know what? "we'lljust ignore that. that's just rhetoric. "we won't take that seriously." and stephen, do you think if we continue now and kill another 20,000 people in gaza and destroy the left, the left of what's left in gaza, then this will not happen? you really think that we can avoid everything and prevent everything and retaliated? no. there are limits to what we can do by power, by force. and we reached this point and now it's time to try something else. first of all, negotiation about the hostages. and, yes, we are facing a very complicated reality. i don't ever pretend in which in two minutes we will solve everything. but i know one thing. continuing this war will not solve anything, and more and more people realise it. so let's stop it for a while. let's sit down and, first
it's such a pleasure to be back in hardtalk with you, stephen. well, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. let's begin with a very basic fact — you are one of your own israeli government's fiercest critics. you have been for a long time. you've certainly been an arch critic of the israeli military strategy in gaza. given all of that, i just wonder how you feel sitting in tel aviv watching the international court ofjustice consider the case of genocide filed against israel. i was watching it with a lot of sadness, depression and also a sense of shame, i must tell you. you know, my parents came here as refugees, really the ashes of the biggest genocide in history. and here, 80, 90 years later, israel is accused for genocide.
where are we reaching it? and above all, stephen, the role of the media. i cannot ignore this, because this time the israeli media play the role that i never saw before. i mean, we were always criticising the russian media, covering the war in ukraine. "oh, look how they're covering the war in ukraine. "what a joke." we are much worse because we are doing it voluntarily. you cannot see any image of gaza in israeli tv and israeli newspapers. hardly see an image. israelis are not exposed to anything of the... nothing of the suffer... but... ..of the starvation, of the uprooted people. nothing. this is a democracy, when you don't show the truth? you talked earlier about empathy and putting yourself in other people's shoes. i'm now trying to put myself in your shoes. for you as a commentator who wants to influence opinion, shouldn't you try to reach israelis in a way that shows more empathy for them? for example, you still seem
who criticise it. that's really shameful. could it be that there is something about israel, something about the jewish state which the international community feels moved to act upon right now? i'm just very aware, as indeed are many israelis, that the united states military intervention in iraq cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives, as far as we know. and we can point to many other military actions in the last 50 years which have cost tens, hundreds of thousands of lives. and yet here we are with the international court ofjustice taking this historic proceeding against the jewish state. does that strike you in some ways as questionable? stephen, israel was always judged on different criteria. we have to admit it, but it goes both ways. it goes for the good and for the bad. israel feels and is part of the west.
so many people say now, people who were quite supporting my views say now, "no, no, no, afterthe 7th, that's the end. "we cannot accept them. we cannot forgive them. "and we don't want to hear about their. . .their suffer." and one, if i may say so, gideon, one reason for that is some of the staunchest supporters of coexistence who reached out to palestinian communities, both in gaza, in the west bank, were murdered on october 7th. thinking of the canadian israeli vivian silver, who spent most of her adult life working for peace, murdered by hamas. did that not make any difference to you and your thinking? it affected my thinking. like any victim of the attack in october, would it be a peacenik or a right—winger, both shouldn't have been slaughtered the way they were slaughtered. and still i ask, does one attack really change all our values and all the things we in the left, or what is left of the left, that we believed in all our lives? and you know what, stephen, i want to ask you another