and what that then meant for public confidence in the rules.— confidence in the rules. it is due to resume _ confidence in the rules. it is due to resume again _ confidence in the rules. it is due to resume again shortly. - confidence in the rules. it is due to resume again shortly. can - confidence in the rules. it is due| to resume again shortly. can you tell us, we are expecting to hear from helen mcnamara this morning. who is expecting to give evidence this afternoon? we who is expecting to give evidence this afternoon?— who is expecting to give evidence this afternoon? ~ ., ., ., ., this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist _ this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist who _ this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist who was _ this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist who was looking - this afternoon? we are going to hear from a specialist who was looking at| from a specialist who was looking at behavioural science whose name i have completely forgotten, so i will find that out for you next time. but we are going to hear about in essence decisions that were made and how they were communicated. but whether the british public would go for it. so i think it is going to be interesting. less political, although obviously political in terms of the decisions that were being made and therefore whether they would be implemented by, whether the great british public would be able to actually do them. so i think it is quite an interesting conversation there about lockdown is, whether people believe in it and whether they would be prepared to give up their liberty. as you say, political this morning, but we get into the broader point this afternoon. you but we get into the broader point this afternoon.— but we get into the broader point this afternoon. you are very much for: iven this afternoon. you are very much forgiven for— this afternoon. you are very much forgiven for forgetting _ this afternoon. you are very much forgiven for forgetting his - this afternoon. you are very much forgiven for forgetting his name, | forgiven forforgetting his name, because there are hundreds of people giving evidence at this inquiry, and it is expected to go on for years. can you tell us more broadly what the aim is, how long is it expected to go for and what of the big names we might hearfrom before to go for and what of the big names we might hear from before the end to go for and what of the big names we might hearfrom before the end of the year. we might hear from before the end of the ear. ., , ., , ., the year. there have been lots and lots of names, _ the year. there have been lots and lots of names, and _ the year. there have been lots and lots of names, and of— the year. there have been lots and lots of names, and of course - the year. there have been lots and lots of names, and of course this l the year. there have been lots and| lots of names, and of course this is module two of the broader inquiry, so module one was about how britain was prepared in the run—up to the pandemic, and this module is about decision—making during orjust decision—making during or just before decision—making during orjust before the pandemic, so january 2020 onwards, and there have been three weeks worth of evidence, three and a half weeks, in this particular bit. i think we have another four or five weeks to go for this part, and baroness hallett said all along that she will announce recommendations or give interim recommendations as we 90, give interim recommendations as we go, but the full recommendations of this inquiry won't be made public for a few years. the running joke if you like is that is longer than the pandemic itself took. but honestly the whole point of this is to learn lessons. no one can be punished for what they did during the pandemic, although of course a little bit of public humiliation in the courtroom there, or what seems like a courtroom, seems to be a bit of a by—product. baroness hallett very much keen to learn lessons because, as she said, she has learned enough lessons to say that the next pandemic is a question of when not if, so there is time to learn the lessons, which is why you are getting to the decision—making processes and also the structures and whether they were right, and loads of different elements that all need to be brought together. so there are plenty of critics that are worried about the timing, how long this is going to take, how much money it has cost to go through all this evidence, but there is plenty of evidence to go through, and it is notjust do politicians make the right call, there are loads of other areas being looked at too. le. right call, there are loads of other areas being looked at too.- areas being looked at too. le, we can 'ust areas being looked at too. le, we can just see _ areas being looked at too. le, we can just see the — areas being looked at too. le, we can just see the inquiry _ areas being looked at too. le, we can just see the inquiry is - areas being looked at too. le, we can just see the inquiry is about l areas being looked at too. le, we | can just see the inquiry is about to resume, so we will listen in. ido i do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth... and just a warning that this is a live hearing coming into the bbc, and it may contain some offensive language. could you give us your full name, please? could you give us your full name, lease? a ., ., ., could you give us your full name, please?— you i could you give us your full name, i please?_ you have please? helen mcnamara. you have --reared please? helen mcnamara. you have reared a please? helen mcnamara. you have prepared a witness _ please? helen mcnamara. you have prepared a witness statement - please? helen mcnamara. you have prepared a witness statement which | prepared a witness statement which is up on screen. i know that you are very familiar with the content of that. let me ask you first of all, other contents of that statement is true? you detail in some depth your civil service career and your witness statement. in summary, it is right, isn't it, that you joined civil service in 2002, having worked in the private sector before that. it is. you the private sector before that. it is- you then _ the private sector before that. it is. you then spent _ the private sector before that. it is. you then spent the _ the private sector before that. it is. you then spent the first - the private sector before that. it is. you then spent the first 11 - the private sector before that. it is. you then spent the first 11 or| is. you then spent the first 11 or so ears is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of— is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of your _ is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of your time _ is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of your time in - is. you then spent the first 11 or so years of your time in the - is. you then spent the first 11 orj so years of your time in the civil service working at various grades in the dcms. , ., �* , service working at various grades in the dcms-— after i the dcms. yes, that's right. after that, so the dcms. yes, that's right. after that. so from _ the dcms. yes, that's right. after that, so from 2013, _ the dcms. yes, that's right. after that, so from 2013, you _ the dcms. yes, that's right. after that, so from 2013, you then - the dcms. yes, that's right. afterl that, so from 2013, you then spent two spells in the cabinet office. both are about three years, so from 2013-2016 and both are about three years, so from 2013—2016 and then both are about three years, so from 2013-2016 and then 2018-2021, and between those you spent some time in the ministry of housing and communities and local government as it was then called?— it was then called? that's right. when you _ it was then called? that's right. when you joined _ it was then called? that's right. when you joined the _ it was then called? that's right. when you joined the cabinet - it was then called? that's right. i when you joined the cabinet office in 2018, so for that last period, you were appointed initially to the post of director—general of propriety and ethics in the cabinet office, but i think it is right that within a few weeks or a month or so of you starting thatjob, your role has expanded to become the cabinet secretary's deputy. yes. has expanded to become the cabinet secretary's deputy-— secretary's deputy. yes, that's ri . ht, secretary's deputy. yes, that's riaht, so secretary's deputy. yes, that's right. so my — secretary's deputy. yes, that's right, so my late _ secretary's deputy. yes, that's right, so my late boss, - secretary's deputy. yes, that's right, so my late boss, lord i right, so my late boss, lord hayward, had asked me to come back to the cabinet office initially to do that role but also to take on wider responsibilities, and then unfortunately went won't offset very quickly after i got back to the cabinet office, so i then supported the temporary and then new permanent cabinet secretary lord sedwill. and then shortly after it became formalised, and sometime later you were promoted to permanent secretary level, but in effect, thatjob of deputy cabinet secretary was one that you've ended until the time you you left the cabinet office? yes. you left the cabinet office? yes, that's right- _ you left the cabinet office? yes, that's right. including _ you left the cabinet office? yes, that's right. including the i you left the cabinet office? yes, that's right. including the period | that's right. including the period in 2020 when — that's right. including the period in 2020 when as _ that's right. including the period in 2020 when as you _ that's right. including the period in 2020 when as you will i that's right. including the period i in 2020 when as you will appreciate is going to be the focus of my questions today. as you say, you supported first of all mark sedwill in his role of cabinet secretary and then as we will hear when he was replaced by simon case, you supported him as well.- replaced by simon case, you supported him as well. yes. those last three years — supported him as well. yes those last three years that you supported him as well. 1j:3 those last three years that you spent in the cabinet office, 2018—21, were a tumultuous period. theresa may's government, her efforts to secure a brexit settlement, borisjohnson brexit settlement, boris johnson becoming brexit settlement, borisjohnson becoming prime minister in 2019, everything that happened in the tail end of that year, prorogation and so on, the general election at the end of 2019 and then of course the covid pandemic. so an unusually busy town to be one of the leaders of the cabinet office.— to be one of the leaders of the cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair- it felt — cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like _ cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like a _ cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like a lot _ cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like a lot longer i cabinet office. yes, i think that is fair. it felt like a lot longer than l fair. it felt like a lot longer than three years at the time. find fair. it felt like a lot longer than three years at the time.- fair. it felt like a lot longer than three years at the time. and as i sa , i'm three years at the time. and as i say. i'm going — three years at the time. and as i say. i'm going to _ three years at the time. and as i say, i'm going to focus - three years at the time. and as i say, i'm going to focus my i three years at the time. and as i i say, i'm going to focus my questions on that period of 2020. can you give us just a brief summary of what your job was then your daily routine, the types of functions that you are performing? of course we will come to hear that you had to do some extraordinary things, but what was your ordinary role at that time? do ou your ordinary role at that time? drr you want me to take january 2020, is that the best place? yes. so i was mark sedwill's _ that the best place? yes. so i was mark sedwill's deputy, and my main job was to support him in his role as cabinet secretary rather than head of the civil service, so i ran something called the central secretariat, which advised on all of the part of cabinet government, so any advice on cabinet committees or the machinery of government change, which means the structures and shape of government departments, how cabinet operates, all the kind of management of cabinet meetings, cabinet committee business, i did all of that. i also was responsible for a range of other things that probably aren't significant to the inquiry. probably aren't significant to the inuui . �* ., probably aren't significant to the inuui .�* ., ., ., , ., probably aren't significant to the inuui .~ ., ., ., , ., ., inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount — inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount of _ inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount of evidence _ inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount of evidence about i inquiry. and we have already heard a fair amount of evidence about the i fair amount of evidence about the rhythm of work in the cabinet office, daily meetings with the prime minister, cabinet meetings, less frequent but still regular. did you have an involvement in those meetings?— you have an involvement in those meetings? yes, absolutely, and i would say although _ meetings? yes, absolutely, and i would say although it _ meetings? yes, absolutely, and i would say although it might i meetings? yes, absolutely, and i | would say although it might sound like an odd thing to say, and this is what i said in my statement, that in many ways is what i said in my statement, that in many wastanuary is what i said in my statement, that in many ways january 2020 really felt like the beginning of the johnson administration even though he had been in office for ten —— sometime before that, and it was the beginning of what we thought at the time was a decade ofjohnson government. i time was a decade of johnson government-— time was a decade of johnson rovernment. ., ,~' , ., ., government. i will ask you more about all of— government. i will ask you more about all of that _ government. i will ask you more about all of that in _ government. i will ask you more about all of that in a _ government. i will ask you more about all of that in a moment, i government. i will ask you more i about all of that in a moment, but before i do. i mentioned to the witness statement. it is very long. it is 100 or so pages. and it is obvious to anyone who reads it, and we will be publishing it in full, that you spent a very long time preparing it. can you give us some idea of first of all how long you did spend on it, and secondly, apart from assisting us, what you hope to achieve with your statement. i think ublic achieve with your statement. i think public inquiries _ achieve with your statement. i think public inquiries are _ achieve with your statement. i think public inquiries are important. i i public inquiries are important. i think they are essential. i think we have had the misfortune at various other points in my career to be working in the civil service where things have gone wrong, and i have always found it really important that there is a point for reflection and that you should yourself in the civil service always be asking questions about what has happened and what you could have done better, but also there is a very important part, i believe, in the way we operate public administration that there needs to sometimes be something like this today where we all have to come and explain an account for what we did on something this important and significant. it has been a real effort to put the statement together and to do the work, for lots of reasons, but it feels a lot like the least i can do in the circumstances, to be honest, and i hope that i have been able to give a fairand and i hope that i have been able to give a fair and reasonable account of what happened, and i hope that some things can be better as a result. it some things can be better as a result. . . ., ., . some things can be better as a result. , . ., ., , ., 4, result. it is clear as we will work throu . h result. it is clear as we will work through it _ result. it is clear as we will work through it that _ result. it is clear as we will work through it that you _ result. it is clear as we will work through it that you refer i result. it is clear as we will work through it that you refer to i result. it is clear as we will work through it that you refer to a i through it that you refer to a number of documents, e—mails, papers that you drafted and so on. i think it is right to say that you came across some obstacles in obtaining material that you needed for your witness statement. can you tell us something about that? i witness statement. can you tell us something about that?— something about that? i did, and i want to be — something about that? i did, and i want to be quite _ something about that? i did, and i want to be quite careful _ something about that? i did, and i want to be quite careful because i something about that? i did, and i l want to be quite careful because you will have heard already that it is very easy to bash a government department, and i'm not one in criticising the cabinet office blaming particular individuals, very much not. but it has been extraordinarily difficult to get even the most basic pieces of information to be able to serve the inquiry properly, so i feel like i have had to be my own forensic archaeologist of my time in 2020, and it has been hard enough for me to work out what was happening when, and i was there. because of the difficulties with accessing documents, accessing the right information, and because unfortunately the cabinet office deleted my work mobile phone, so i have not had access to those records either. and we will come to one or two parts of your evidence where you say you are sure that there were relevant whatsapp messages and so on that you sent, but you no longer have the because you returned your phone to the cabinet office when you left, and they have been unable to provide it back to you, and i think they have told you that, is it the phone itself that has been destroyed, or has the material been deleted? i’m has the material been deleted? i'm not has the material been deleted? i“n not entirely sure, but i definitely did ask because i know that the messages were all backed up, i asked if they could provide a simile of the phone so that i could at least see the messages, and that wasn't possible either. and i should be in reassure that most of my businesses on e—mail and it is all captured in the public record, so i don't worry that there is a huge amount of material that you are not seeing which is relative to the work that i was doing. but which is relative to the work that i was doing-— was doing. but nonetheless a frustration _ was doing. but nonetheless a frustration that _ was doing. but nonetheless a frustration that the _ was doing. but nonetheless a frustration that the phone i was doing. but nonetheless a i frustration that the phone messages weren't available. it frustration that the phone messages weren't available.— frustration that the phone messages weren't available._ lets i weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on- — weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on- i _ weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on. i want _ weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on. i want to _ weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on. i want to start, i weren't available. it is, yes. lets move on. i want to start, as i