position. —— r number. one of the things we discovered was children could pass the disease on to children and whilst both asymptomatic, they could then pass it on to older relatives. so, yes, that was one of the many things we had to contend with, yes. you that was one of the many things we had to contend with, yes.— had to contend with, yes. you are sa in: had to contend with, yes. you are saying you — had to contend with, yes. you are saying you received _ had to contend with, yes. you are saying you received medical- had to contend with, yes. you are | saying you received medical advice to that _ saying you received medical advice to that effect?— saying you received medical advice to that effect? yes. was it expert advice, to that effect? yes. was it expert advice. you _ to that effect? yes. was it expert advice. you are — to that effect? jazz was it expert advice, you are saying? to that effect? yes. was it expert advice, you are saying? without i to that effect? yes. was it expert i advice, you are saying? without any notice of this _ advice, you are saying? without any notice of this line _ advice, you are saying? without any notice of this line of _ advice, you are saying? without any notice of this line of questioning, i notice of this line of questioning, i can't give you the precise details of the documents, but it was clearly understood... my clear understanding and essentially a consensus position that we reached. this is all obviously extremely unfortunate. it's one of the consequences of the fight this disease passes from one person to another when you don't have symptoms. mr person to another when you don't have symptoms-— person to another when you don't have symptoms. mr hancock, even in janua have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 — have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when — have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when we _ have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when we went _ have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when we went into - have symptoms. mr hancock, even in january 2021 when we went into the l january 2021 when we went into the third lockdown when children under five were _ third lockdown when children under five were exempt from the regulations, in england, children aged— regulations, in england, children aged five— regulations, in england, children aged five to 12 who were too young to leave _ aged five to 12 who were too young to leave home independently were not simitarly— to leave home independently were not similarly exempted as they were in scotland _ similarly exempted as they were in scotland and wales, you know that, don't _ scotland and wales, you know that, don't you? — scotland and wales, you know that, don't you? i�*m scotland and wales, you know that, don't ou? �* .. .. scotland and wales, you know that, don't ou? �* ., ., ., don't you? i'm aware of the different — don't you? i'm aware of the different regulations. - don't you? i'm aware of the different regulations. 1. don't you? i'm aware of the different regulations. i am. don't you? i'm aware of the . different regulations. i am also aware of the reasons we bought in those regulations. nobody wanted these regulations. nobody wanted to have to put these burdens on people, but i did want to stop the virus and to stop so many people dying from it. we have seen the testimony of the consequences of this disease. it was a horrific virus and it was my responsibility to ensure that as few people got it as possible and that was extremely difficult. it involved doing things nobody would want to do in any normal circumstances and from the tone of the questions i get the impression that you think that was... you're inviting me to say that was a mistake, it wasn't a mistake to put in place restrictions that saved lives. in fact, my overall point is that we needed to have done that sooner in order for there to have been fewer deaths. that's what i working for. find there to have been fewer deaths. that's what i working for.- that's what i working for. and it wasn't simply — that's what i working for. and it wasn't simply the _ that's what i working for. and it wasn't simply the children's - that's what i working for. and it i wasn't simply the children's sector that was— wasn't simply the children's sector that was asking the government to rela> if we have a look at the entry for the iith of— if we have a look at the entry for the 11th of october at 154659, do you have — the 11th of october at 154659, do you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately _ you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says _ you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says to _ you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says to you, - you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says to you, wish - you have that on your screen? yeah. helen whately says to you, wish we | helen whately says to you, wish we could _ helen whately says to you, wish we could loosen on children under 12 on rule of— could loosen on children under 12 on rule of 65i~ — could loosen on children under 12 on rule of 651. and then she goes on an hour or— rule of 651. and then she goes on an hour or so _ rule of 651. and then she goes on an hour or so later to say it would make — hour or so later to say it would make such _ hour or so later to say it would make such a difference for families and there _ make such a difference for families and there isn't a robust rationale for it _ and there isn't a robust rationale for it she — and there isn't a robust rationale for it. she clearly doesn't agree with you — for it. she clearly doesn't agree with you about there being a robust rationale _ with you about there being a robust rationale for it. now is a really good _ rationale for it. now is a really good chance to show we have listened, _ good chance to show we have listened, lots of mps were pushing on this— listened, lots of mps were pushing on this during last week's debates, do you _ on this during last week's debates, do you see — on this during last week's debates, do you see that? of on this during last week's debates, do you see that?— on this during last week's debates, do you see that? of course i can see that, i do you see that? of course i can see that, i can — do you see that? of course i can see that. i can read. _ do you see that? of course i can see that, i can read, thank— do you see that? of course i can see that, i can read, thank you. - do you see that? of course i can see that, i can read, thank you. i'm - that, i can read, thank you. i'm lad. that, i can read, thank you. i'm glad- they _ that, i can read, thank you. i'm glad- they say _ that, i can read, thank you. i'm glad. they say they don't want to go there _ glad. they say they don't want to go there on— glad. they say they don't want to go there on this full stop and she says. — there on this full stop and she says. are _ there on this full stop and she says, are we they? and then you say, as in_ says, are we they? and then you say, as in number— says, are we they? and then you say, as in number10, also says, are we they? and then you say, as in number 10, also on curfew, they— as in number 10, also on curfew, they don't— as in number 10, also on curfew, they don't want to shift an inch. correct — they don't want to shift an inch. correct me _ they don't want to shift an inch. correct me if i'm wrong, she is saying — correct me if i'm wrong, she is saying there is no rationale for children— saying there is no rationale for children not to be exempted from the rule of— children not to be exempted from the rule of six _ children not to be exempted from the rule of six and you are saying number— rule of six and you are saying number 10 do rule of six and you are saying number10 do not rule of six and you are saying number 10 do not wish to shift an inch on— number 10 do not wish to shift an inch on this, is that right? what number 10 do not wish to shift an inch on this, is that right?- inch on this, is that right? what i would say — inch on this, is that right? what i would say in _ inch on this, is that right? what i would say in response _ inch on this, is that right? what i would say in response to - inch on this, is that right? what i would say in response to this - would say in response to this exchange is firstly, a big picture point, you can see the high level of factionalism and the way with which those who reported to me, including helen whately, could bring issues to my attention and expressed that they disagreed with me in a wholly professional way and, with respect to your stay�*s evidence, ijust think, chair, make that point because this is how we run the health department and i encouraged people to raise questions with me. i also wish we could have loosened on children, but we couldn't because we needed to keep r below one. at this point, on the 11th of october, you will know that the incidence of covid was rising, that meant that in the future more people were going to die each day than were dying on this date and my argument, as we have discussed in earlier evidence, was that we needed to do more at this point to stop the virus, to save lives. that's the argument i was making. of course i understand the impact on children, i have three children of my own. of course, i shared a wish that we didn't have to do any of this. but we did. and the reason we did was because otherwise more people would die. i think there was a robust rationale for it and i therefore listened, as you can see, debated briefly with helen and also i don't know whether i checked with number 10 in that 15 minutes in between 5:40pm and a 5:54pm or whether i already knew they didn't want to change their position. we were under significant political pressure to lift certain restrictions. i thought that would have been a mistake and more people would have died. there was an active campaign against restrictions at this point and, as i say, the clear advice to me was that because of asymptomatic transmission of this virus. unfortunately, it did pass from child to child and therefore from child to child and therefore from household to household and that is why we kept the measures as they are. .. . is why we kept the measures as they are. ., , ., ~ ., ., are. can i 'ust make one more point, it will are. can ijust make one more point, it will take — are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less _ are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less than _ are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less than a _ are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less than a minute, - are. can ijust make one more point, it will take less than a minute, my i it will take less than a minute, my lady _ it will take less than a minute, my lady mr_ it will take less than a minute, my lady. mr hancock, to be fair to you, you need _ lady. mr hancock, to be fair to you, you need to — lady. mr hancock, to be fair to you, you need to know that this inquiry has heard — you need to know that this inquiry has heard evidence in relation to what _ has heard evidence in relation to what sir— has heard evidence in relation to what sir patrick vallance put in his notebooks — what sir patrick vallance put in his notebooks that at this very time in october. _ notebooks that at this very time in october, there is evidence before this inquiry— october, there is evidence before this inquiry that sage was pushing for exempting children from the rule of six _ for exempting children from the rule of six i'rn _ for exempting children from the rule of six. i'm afraid that it does contradict _ of six. i'm afraid that it does contradict the evidence you have 'ust contradict the evidence you have just given, — contradict the evidence you have just given, doesn't it? | contradict the evidence you have just given, doesn't it?— just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that— just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that evidence, _ just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that evidence, all - just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that evidence, all i - just given, doesn't it? i haven't seen that evidence, all i can i just given, doesn't it? i haven't. seen that evidence, all i can give you is the testimony of what i was told at the time and the overriding strategic objective i had to save lives. strategic ob'ective i had to save lives. .. .. strategic ob'ective i had to save lives. . ~' , ., strategic ob'ective i had to save lives. ., ,, , ., ., ,, , ., strategic ob'ective i had to save lives. .. ,. , ., .. ~' , ., , lives. thank you. thank you, my lad . lives. thank you. thank you, my lady- thank— lives. thank you. thank you, my lady- thank you. _ lives. thank you. thank you, my lady. thank you, my _ lives. thank you. thank you, my lady. thank you, my lady. - lives. thank you. thank you, my lady. thank you, my lady. good| lady. thank you, my lady. good mornin: lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr _ lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr hancock. _ lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr hancock. i - lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr hancock. i act - lady. thank you, my lady. good morning mr hancock. i act for. lady. thank you, my lady. good i morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled _ morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled organisations— morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled organisations and - morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled organisations and can - morning mr hancock. i act for four disabled organisations and can i i disabled organisations and can i start— disabled organisations and can i start with — disabled organisations and can i start with adult _ disabled organisations and can i start with adult social— disabled organisations and can i start with adult social care - disabled organisations and can i start with adult social care as i disabled organisations and can i start with adult social care as ofj start with adult social care as of early— start with adult social care as of early march _ start with adult social care as of early march 2020. _ start with adult social care as of early march 2020. we - start with adult social care as of early march 2020. we are - early march 2020. we are particularly _ early march 2020. we are particularly concerned i early march 2020. we are | particularly concerned with early march 2020. we are i particularly concerned with the implications— particularly concerned with the implications of— particularly concerned with the implications of the _ particularly concerned with the implications of the nprs - particularly concerned with the implications of the nprs for i implications of the nprs for disabled _ implications of the nprs for disabled people _ implications of the nprs for disabled people whose i implications of the nprs for disabled people whose care| implications of the nprs for - disabled people whose care systems would _ disabled people whose care systems would likely— disabled people whose care systems would likely be — disabled people whose care systems would likely be overhauled - disabled people whose care systems would likely be overhauled or, - disabled people whose care systems would likely be overhauled or, at- would likely be overhauled or, at best, _ would likely be overhauled or, at best. very— would likely be overhauled or, at best, very significantly— would likely be overhauled or, at best, very significantly be - best, very significantly be challenged _ best, very significantly be challenged. the - best, very significantly be challenged. the context, | best, very significantly be i challenged. the context, two best, very significantly be _ challenged. the context, two points if i challenged. the context, two points if i may _ challenged. the context, two points if i may. first. — challenged. the context, two points if i may. first, the _ challenged. the context, two points if i may. first, the annual— if i may. first, the annual published _ if i may. first, the annual published nhs _ if i may. first, the annual published nhs digital- if i may. first, the annual- published nhs digital records from october— published nhs digital records from october 2oi?)— published nhs digital records from october 2019 indicate, _ published nhs digital records from october 2019 indicate, i— published nhs digital records from october 2019 indicate, i hope i published nhs digital records from october 2019 indicate, i hope you. october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take — october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take it — october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take it from _ october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take it from me, _ october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take it from me, there - october 2019 indicate, i hope you will take it from me, there were i will take it from me, there were 84i.850 — will take it from me, there were 84i.850 people _ will take it from me, there were 841,850 people who _ will take it from me, there were 841,850 people who received i 841,850 people who received long-term _ 841,850 people who received long—term adult— 841,850 people who received long—term adult social - 841,850 people who received long—term adult social care i 841,850 people who received - long—term adult social care support in 20i8— long—term adult social care support in 20i8 to _ long—term adult social care support in 20i8 to i9~ — long—term adult social care support in 2018 to 19. and _ long—term adult social care support in 2018 to 19. and that _ long—term adult social care support in 2018 to 19. and that a _ long—term adult social care support in 2018 to 19. and that a very- in 2018 to 19. and that a very significant _ in 2018 to 19. and that a very significant number— in 2018 to 19. and that a very significant number of- in 2018 to 19. and that a very significant number of those l in 2018 to 19. and that a very- significant number of those people were disabled _ significant number of those people were disabled people,... - significant number of those people were disabled people,... is - significant number of those people were disabled people, . . ._ significant number of those people were disabled people, . .. were disabled people,... is that all ates or were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust — were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust working _ were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust working ages? - were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust working ages? i - were disabled people,... is that all ages orjust working ages? i will. ages or 'ust working ages? i will rive ages orjust working ages? i will rive ou ages orjust working ages? i will give you an _ ages orjust working ages? i will give you an example. _ ages orjust working ages? i will give you an example. for- ages orjust working ages? i will give you an example. for those aged between _ give you an example. for those aged between i8— give you an example. for those aged between i8 and — give you an example. for those aged between 18 and 64, _ give you an example. for those aged between 18 and 64, the _ give you an example. for those aged between 18 and 64, the most- give you an example. for those aged i between 18 and 64, the most common reason _ between 18 and 64, the most common reason for— between 18 and 64, the most common reason for support _ between 18 and 64, the most common reason for support was _ between 18 and 64, the most common reason for support was learning - reason for support was learning disabilities, _ reason for support was learning disabilities, that's _ reason for support was learning disabilities, that's 45.5%, - reason for support was learning i disabilities, that's 45.5%, followed by is physical— disabilities, that's 45.5%, followed by is physical support, _ disabilities, that's 45.5%, fol