night and lots of states across the country, we hear at msnbc we'll be covering it until the cows come home, until steve kornacki's eyelids turned inside out on live television. all, right that does it for us tonight. now it is time for the last word with of the great lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. as word witgood evening, rachel. i have a programming question to your programming note about wednesday night. you said we will all be here discussing the so-called debate. >> you don't have somewhere else to be, do you? >> does all include me? >> yes? >> because i haven't watched a single republican debate. i have a perfect record of not watching or commenting on a single republican so-called debate. >> i am going to change you to the proverbial loom, it is good for you, you know, anything can happen, lawrence. >> do i have to talk? >> yes. >> okay. >> i won't ever tell you what to say, but, also i like that you are appealing to me like i am making these decisions. >> it's up to, you lawrence. >> yes, it's completely up to you. you must discuss a lot about vicarage what. me >> now, rachel, i've spent the weekend curled up with this amazing new york times number one bestseller, debuting at number one on the bestseller list. and i have so many questions. and i was kind of wondering if maybe tonight, you could come over? >> yes. >> okay, here's what we'll do, to give you time to come over. we are going to do a first segment with mary trump's reaction to her uncle being out of control in court today. and then we are going to talk about rachel maddow's number one best selling, new york times number one bestseller, debuts a number, one prequel, an american fight against fascism. and what i'm gonna do, rachel, is it is going to be a discussion, but i am going to be selling the thing. no, but it's specific. i am going to be selling the audio book. and you know why i want to push the audio book. we will discuss all of that when you make your way over here. >> you are very, kind i will see you in a minute. >> thank you, rachel. >> thanks. >> well if you are wondering how much special treatment donald trump gets as a defendant, the answer is more special treatment than any defendant in american history, much more. the proof of that, once in history, level of special treatment came at a manhattan courtroom today, when the judge presiding over the civil fraud case against defendant donald trump said something that no judge has ever said before. speaking directly to defendant trump who was sitting under oath and the witness stand. the judge said to him, you can attack me. in the 400 years of courtroom history in america, dating back to the colonial courts, no judge has ever said that in court to any defendant or any witness. until today. that is how much special treatment donald trump is getting. on the witness stand today, in that fraud case, donald trump did not wait for the judge's permission to attack him, donald trump began attacking the judge right away. and he attacked new york 20 general from the witness stand, something no witness has ever done before in a new york courtroom. in one of the judges many failed attempts to get donald trump to answer the questions being put to him, by an assistant attorney general. the judge told donald trump, you can attack me, you can do whatever you want, but answer the questions. donald trump did the first two of those things. he attacked the judge, he did whatever he wanted. but he didn't do the third thing. he did not answer the questions. and it does not matter. donald trump's lawyers did not ask for a jury trial in the case, which doesn't prevent donald trump from constantly complaining that there is no jury. deciding whether donald trump and his sons committed fraud in falsely exaggerating the value of their holdings was entirely up to the judge in the case who has already reached a verdict that donald trump and his two sons did indeed commit fraud. the proceeding going on now in the courtroom is about nothing other than a big penalty should the judge impose on donald trump and his sons and the family business? as has been said many times on this program, no sane criminal defense lawyer whatever allow donald trump to testify under oath in court. but this is not a criminal trial. and that is why you are seeing donald trump testify. which we will not see in any of the for criminal trials donald trump is facing. because this is a civil trial. the defendant can be called to the witness stand by either side in the case. so the attorney general has called donald trump as a witness to show the judge that donald trump was actively involved in what the judge has already ruled was a fraud. but the judge already knows that donald trump was involved in that fraud based on donald trump's under oath pretrial deposition and the rest of the evidence in the case. today, the judge made it clear to donald trump that if he refused to answer a question by making a campaign speech instead, as donald trump did many times, the judge would then take a negative inference from donald trump's refusal to answer. and other, words if the attorney general asked donald trump if he approved of a false evaluation, and donald trump rambled on and on and refused to answer that question, the judge couldn't infer that donald trump was simply trying not to admit the truth that he did knowingly approve false valuations. donald trump made some admissions under oath that were lost to many observers of the trial in all of the bluster of the day. when asked why the square footage of his new york apartment was listed as triple the actual size, donald trump admitted under oath that he exaggerated square footage created a false evaluation, trump said the number was too high. the attorney general introduced i.d.'d to donald trump's florida residence, which he operates as a private club because he cannot afford to live there without the income from the private club. the deed to that property says the club and trump intend to forever extinguish their right to development or use the property for any purpose other than club use. that is why the actual value of the property is severely limited. the deed severely limits possible purposes of sale. it cannot be sold for a higher value purpose. when confronted with the deed, limiting the value of that property, witnessed trump seized on one word indeed, the word intend. trump said intend doesn't mean we will do it. because donald trump is one of the very stupidest people ever to be charged with business fraud, and because his demonstrably ineffectual lawyers obviously do not have the skills to prepare their client for even the simplest and most obvious questions, donald trump incriminated himself and his children with the only one word answer that he gave all day. question, who within the trump organization was responsible for preventing and detecting fraud? answer, everybody. and there, donald trump destroyed any shred of defense in the case for himself and his codefendants, donald trump jr. and eric trump. everybody, you could spend weeks trying to think of a stupid or answer than that. and you cannot come up with one. now, remember, going into his testimony today, the verdict was already rendered on the fraud that donald trump and his sons committed. the question now is only, will they face the maximum penalty for that fraud, which could include fines of up to $250 million, donald trump's job as a witness today was to give the judge a reason, and the reason to lower the penalty against him and his sons. his job was to make the judge think the fraud wasn't donald trump's fault, it wasn't donald trump jr.'s fault, it wasn't eric trump's fault. it was the accountants fault, or something like that. that wouldn't eliminate the, penalty but it could significantly softened it. and instead, donald trump continued his war with the judge who is going to decide the fate of donald trump's business. and donald trump incriminated himself and his kids. question, who within the trump organization was responsible for preventing and detecting fraud, answer, everybody. lawyers dream of moments like that in court. where you get the witness on the stand to things he is the smartest guy in the room, which is something only do people think in courtrooms, and he gives you a fast and loose answer to the key question in the case. good lawyers never make the key question the first or the last question. they never let it stand up like that. they folded into the middle of the witness examination. and try to use it when they think the witness feels most comfortable. most in control. and so, a couple of hours after the judge told donald trump, you can do whatever you want, donald trump stupidly felt comfortable and in control. and then said the stupidest possible thing he could say as a witness me. everybody. everybody was in on the fraud. that was donald trump's testimony today. about his family business. leading off our discussion tonight is adam klasfeld, he's the senior legal correspondent for the messenger, he was in the courtroom for today's proceedings. adam, we rely on your courtroom tweets through the day. they basically work as a transcript light red eventually get the official transcript. and i have to tell, you yours matched word for word what we found in the official transcript. it, when you sort through all the crazy bluster. which is kind of easy to do when the dust clears and it's all over. donald trump did not do himself any good at all in that room today? >> absolutely, lawrence. and i would go even a step further with the point that you are making about that passage -- there is another key issue at the trial, which was the awareness and responsibility for the statements of financial condition -- banks and insurers, that is the heart of the case. and if you remember, when we were talking about eric trump's testimony, and don jr.'s testimony, their testimony was, in the case of don jr., basically passing it off to you the accountants and the lawyers and for eric trump his answer was i don't know anything about it. trump can concede it. it goes to the very issue you were talking about earlier, about the pervasiveness of the you can attack me. and it seemed for a while but there was a moment that the judge was threatening to cut trump's testimony short if he didn't go forward and give straightforward answers. and the a.g. did not push that issue, he did not actually object to the long winded answers, he lets trump talk. and in scrutinizing the answers, watching the dust settle, and inspecting the transcripts, we can see perhaps a little bit of the strategy as to why. >> yeah, it certainly lets donald trump get more and more relaxed and let him feel more and more confident. and that is exactly where the attorney general wanted him? >> that's absolutely the case. and you can see throughout the questioning, now, this happened in the morning when trump started calling the judge unfair and arguing with the judge about the rolling. in the afternoon session, he continues going after the judge. as you, noted has great power real ding over whether trump will be forced to pay hundreds of millions of dollars in ill gotten gains, will be forced to be put out of business permanently,. barred from serving as a director or an officer of the new york corporation. he goes and attacks the judge again. and without any penalty, in that comfort, comes the testimony that could prompt him later, particularly ones this goes on appeal. and the judges earlier ruling, the ruling shutting down his new york business empire is scrutinized. >> adam crosswell, thank you very much for your reporting as always. >> thank you very much for having me. >> joining us now is mary trump, clinical psychologist and niece of donald trump, she is the author of the reckoning, our nation's trauma and finding a way to heal. mary, thank you very much for joining us tonight. when i saw the imagery of donald trump in the courtroom today. i thought of you. let's take a look at that. i was wondering, what she thought when you saw this image of donald trump. these are the cameras that are allowed in the court before the proceeding officially gets underway, just so they can establish a photographic image of the room for audiences. what do you see when you see that man sitting at that table? >> i felt the need to tell him that spouting is not an affirmative defense. but he clearly didn't get the message. he probably thinks he is looking stern, and he is staring everyone down. but he does look like a disgruntled toddler. and i think you've covered, really thoroughly, the fact that his lack of intelligence has gotten him in trouble in his testimony. but the other thing, one other thing that has is his miss perception of the kind of control he has. which is to say, he thinks he is in control, but he is not in control at all. >> yeah, and that seems to be something that the attorney general actually wanted to encouraging him as a witness, the feeling, please be comfortable, please feel like you are in control of this. because then you just won't see us coming when we have these questions where you will incriminate literally everybody in the family business. >> yes, it was masterfully done. and it was at first very frustrating that the judge wasn't intervening in any way. i think anybody else would have been slapped with contempt charges and would be sitting in a county jail right now. but as you mentioned, the prosecutor clearly wanted donald to feel comfortable and confident in saying whatever he felt the need to say. and i think that that aligns really well with donald's unconscious impulse to twist what is actually going on. he has been accused on one level of being an entirely unsuccessful businessman. he is accused of being a total failure. and in order to counter that, he needs to start bragging about how much he is worth. and he needs to start insulting people and feel like he is dominating. and as you alluded to, it's made him walk into every single trap that was set for him, and probably some that weren't even set intentionally. >> i have never seen a defense lawyer do a worst job in any form of litigation then the trump lawyers. they are just the worst i've ever seen, utterly incompetent. but they also attacked the judge, they refer reverentially to donald trump as the former and future. president-elect say that kind of nonsense in court. that apparently is what he is paying, for if he is actually paying them, his contributors are paying them i guess. but these lawyers have been completely legally wiped out every step of the, way and donald trump doesn't seem to be spiking that we've noticed that part. >> no it is actually quite stunning. and i think we are seeing the limits of tactics that he is used in the past. this used to fly when he was in a boardroom and throwing temper tantrums to get his way in a deal that he was threatening to reneged on. for example. but it is really amazing that these attorneys do not seem to understand that by treating judge and drawn as if he were the base, and by treating this trial as if it were a political exercise, they are going to get their client in a lot of trouble. and i understand why donald doesn't seem to have gotten the memo that the trial, the fraud part of this trial has already been adjudicated against him. but his lawyers don't seem to understand that either. and that is the part that is just incredible. >> at the end of his legal roads, he is gonna look up, his contributors will have paid a lot of attorneys fees to a lot of lawyers. so far, all of whom have performed as nothing but sycophants to donald trump. embarrassing themselves as lawyers to basing themselves, doing things that are below what anyone has ever imagined lawyers might do in any given situation. and i'm wondering, is donald trump ever going to see the end of the whole thing? how bad his own lawyers were? >> no, not at all. because, again, they like all of his other sycophants, are performing for an audience of. one that is all that matters to him. and he continues to believe that he is in control of his destiny. although, as we can clearly imagine at this point based on the reporting that his next hope fully theoretical administration is already trying to game the system so that he is dictator for life. he's banging up against the impossibility of continuing to get away with what he has been getting away with his whole life. finally we can say that the walls are closing in. and part of the reason they are is because he doesn't even realize it. >> there are two cases that will be unaffected by the outcome of the presidential election, no matter which way it goes. one is this case, it is a new york state case. and so whatever is going to happen to his business is going to happen, and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about that, federal government, presidential level. and the georgia case against him. which can also proceed, there is no possible way to interfere with that case from the presidency. what will donald trump try to do, he must know now that those are the two cases that he cannot in any way stop? no matter what happens? >> well he is going to try to win or steal the election next november. , the pressure he is under is extraordinary. and, you know, you and i lawrence have spoken about this over the last few years. it is worse now than it was in the fall of 2020. we are in a greater and more dangerous tipping point than we were after the election of 2020. and we have to recognize that the more defeats donald suffers in court, especially if they are the kinds of defeats that go to his very sense of identity, right? and they don't have the kinds of punishment that will take him off the board as a political player, the more dangerous he is going to get. so i am very concerned that the calendar isn't going to allow for matters to be settled before the general election. because that is only going to give him more room to start preparing to create a situation in which the verdict, in this, case the verdict in georgia, do not matter at all to his political future or his traditional future. >> mary trump, thank you very much for joining us once again. >> thank, you lawrence. >> thank you. >> coming up, rachel maddow, that's all i have to say. rachel is next! ugh, i'll deal with this tomorrow. you won't. it's ripe in here. my eyes are watering. look how crusty this is. ugh, it's just too much. not with this. good advice. when stains and odors pile up, it's got to be tide. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ jardiance ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee. ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪ jardiance is really swell, ♪ ♪ the little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ ♪ wake up, gotta go! ♪ jardiance is rc'mon, c'mon.♪ -gracie, c'mon. let's go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! 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