televised political debates over the years, a lot of them featured joe biden. he was on the debate stages in 1988 and 2008 and 2012 and 2020 . we are not even counting 2024, yet. if you had to pick one moment where joe biden was able to beat back his critics and win the moment in as few words as possible, it would probably be this one. >> an editorial in the los angeles times said, in addition to his uncontrolled verbosity, biden is a gaffe machine. you have the discipline you need on the world stage? >> yes. >> thank you, senator biden. >> that was joe biden during the 2008 democratic presidential primary debates. while moments like that did not win biden the democratic nomination, we later learned his performance on stage was a real factor in why barack obama chose joe biden to be his running mate. it is also a reminder that biden can be a very effective debater when he is calm and in control. by contrast, there is his opponent, donald trump. not a person who would ever willingly give up 28 seconds of a 32nd time allotment to make a point. trump, as we saw from the 20 16th and 2020 debates is not a creature of restraint or strategy, per se. today, trump gave an interview to the washington examiner where he talked about the upcoming debate and told his interviewer that he thinks debate is an attitude more than anything else, which makes sense if you have seen donald trump in a debate. in that same interview, trump was asked about whether or not his attitude had ever failed him, this is a reporter. a lot of people thought in the first debate with biden you were somewhat over it, you just went after him too much. trump, that i interrupted him? yeah, i think, reporter. do you agree with that? trump answered, after a short pause, trump defended the interruptions before conceding that yes, there were too many. so yes, even donald trump is aware that his attitude can hurt him on the debate stage, especially when he is over and -- and. >> vote and let your senators know, make sure you let people know. i'm not going to that answer the question because the question is -- >> the radical left -- >> would you shut up, man? >> trump's attitude problems do not end with treatment of his opponents, he is also at is worth interrupting the moderators. >> i will give you an answer to answer, sir. >> wait a second, you made a statement, i would love to answer. >> if you want to switch seats, we could do that. >> being over amped with opponents not good, talking over the moderator, also not good . donald trump is also at is worse on the defensive, as this moment with senator marco rubio during the republican primary debates in 2016. >> i have to say this, he hit my hands, no one has ever hit my hands. look at those hands, are those small hands? and he referred to my hands, if they are small, something else must be small, i guarantee you, there is no problem, i guarantee you. >> not that effective and also really gross. as the debates have shown us, trump is defensive about a lot of things and not just his undersized hands, also his cozy relationship with certain autocrats. >> look, from everything i see has no respect for this person. >> that is because he would rather have a puppet as president of the united states and it is pretty clear -- >> no puppet, it is like watching somebody pour water into a teddy wreck spent battery pack. as as bad as that no puppet defense was, not a shocking or disqualified as his defense of election denial in 2016. >> d make the same commitment, sir, you are absolutely accept the result of the selection? >> i will look at it in the time, i'm not looking at anything now. >> are you not prepared -- >> what i'm saying, i will tell you at the time, i will keep you in suspense. >> trump's most infamous moment in any debate was when he was forced to respond to a question about his relationship with white supremacist and offered not a condemnation but a call to arms. >> are you willing tonight, to condemn white supremacist and militia groups? >> give me a name. who would you like me to condemn ? >> proud boys. >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> if you're the biden campaign reviewing trump's worst debate moments, it is clear there's a lot to work with, if you want to spend the whole debate teasing out the insecure and undisciplined and destructive side of donald trump. what about joe biden himself? how much of this debate should he spent on his not insignificant accomplishments as president? does he talk about shepherding through the biggest investments in climate and infrastructure in a generation or the long list of actions he is taken on behalf of everyday americans like working to end junk fees and lowering drug costs and trying to and big monopolies are the historically strong american economy he has overseen, which, by the way, the world bank recently said, is so strong it bolstered the entire world economy after a global pandemic. how much time should president biden spend focused on all that and how much time should he spent autocrat white supremacist election denial of the small hints that like to interrupt everyone all the time? that is really the question. >> no puppet. you are the puppet. >> during our cost of pod save american, john and tommy, john lovett is not here this evening, the authors of a new book called, democracy or else, how to save democracy in 10 easy steps. thank you for being here. you could bake brownies in 10 easy steps or save democracy. your choice. >> either or. >> until we get to your book, essential reading at this moment, you guys are astute observers of politics, you understand the strategy that goes behind the scenes in terms of prepping presidents or leaders for important moments. i do wonder as we barrel toward this debate on thursday, when you think about the sort of central question biden is faced with, how much to run on his own record, highlight what he has done versus how much to try to put trump on defense, what do you think the breakdown is and how do you think of it strategically? >> i think the president has to frame his accomplishments as down payments what he wants to continue to do the next four years. i know the slogan they have been using is, finish the job. i think that is smart, if people aren't feeling the effects of the legislation is passed yet, you don't want to seem like you're talking past people. as quickly as he can pivot to the choice of the election, insulin is $35 now for seniors, i want to make a $35 for everyone, publicans blocked it, donald trump against it, give me another four years, i will make a $35 for everyone. you give donald trump four years, he will take away your healthcare. >> tommy, do you think as a practical matter, is it possible to get those details in the form of a debate? i agree, it is like a mud wrestling match, serve some utility in american politics, maybe it does, the biden campaign clearly thinks it does because they wanted the debate. really, as a matter of strategy, does he have to choose, can he do both? >> what jon is getting at, making the mistake of the referendum about your accomplishments and getting defensive and sounding defensive. the two minute answer when the trump mic is muted, we don't know if jake tapper will hog- tie him -- >> i hear the phrase, jake tapper and hog-tie i don't see that. >> you don't know jake tapper back in the day. here's what i've done, what i'm fighting for, why this guy is fighting for his rich donors and his friends and to keep himself out of prison. >> if we go blow-by-blow in terms of the issues they are likely to tackle, first and foremost, trump has been talking about the border, migrant ufc fights over the weekend, immigration is something republicans feel like they have democrats in a corner on. if you are biden talking him behind the scenes at the debate , what is the strategy for talking about the broken deal trump ruined on the border? and also, defending the policy he just launched. >> if it comes to the border first, biden can easily say, i just took an executive action on the border and i had to do that because we had a deal that would have been better, bipartisan deal in congress, this guy told republicans to kill the deal because he wanted the issue to run on because for him, it is all about politics. i just nature family stay together, especially undocumented spouses of american citizens, who have been in the country 10 years. the difference is, he ripped families apart and i want to keep families together. >> i feel like saying, child separation over and over is what any democrat needs to use, as especially this democrat. >> there's a problem at the border, all democrat fix with both parties, concerned about disorder and chaos of the border and they want a system regularized and works. the problems congress not passing a law to take care of it in totality, he needs to make the case. >> one of the things i worry about, talking about holding together the democratic coalition, this is a careful balance, acknowledging the chaos at the border while also not dehumanizing the people looking for a better tomorrow, in many ways, formed the backbone of the american economy . i wonder if you think there's any peril playing too much, i guess i will call it hardball, on the topic of migrants coming over the border? >> i spent a lot of time on another podcast we, wilderness, focus groups of latino voters, one thing that gets conflated as people talk about immigration, a lot of voters see the border as separate from immigration, including latino borders. for a lot of latinos, the border is issue of public safety. new arrivals, we want people to come to the country but we wanted to be orderly, we need a border. people that have been in the country for years, undocumented, people are much more welcoming. i think you have to separate out what is going on at the border, yes, we are going to be tough on the border, have a secure border, that is important, we don't want chaos. if you have been here for years and you're working hard, law- abiding, no criminal record, we want you in this country, give you a path to citizenship. >> separating the two, making a distinction, in theory, the people coming over undocumented not to support the u.s. economy in 10 years could be the same people, i digress, that is a level of nuance this debate will not be able to tolerate. on abortion, tommy, you guys talked about this on pod save america this week, trump will push this to the state, as he has repeatedly when asked what his policy on abortion is. my is, both for democrats and republicans in swing states i feel like, it is really bad in a place like alabama and the deep south, will it get bad in my state? how do you create a sense of urgency if you are joe biden around that question? >> tell the story of donald trump selection and the people he put on the supreme court and how it led to this outcome. talk about what they plan to do next, push for federal abortion ban, full stop. push for limits on ivf, talking about getting rid of contraception. there's a radical right-wing base that comes along with donald trump, they are a bunch of weirdos you don't want in your bedroom. he has to tell the broader story, a lot of people don't view trump as someone they think is socially conservative. in fact, his entire party is. >> if he is not socially conservative, it is about making him seem like he does not care what happens to families who are trying to exercise control over their own autonomy. >> trump will be up there saying, there's not national abortion ban, do you want to trust the guy who said last time, abortion is not the on the ballot the last time we debated and now we have abortion bans, one in three women in the country live under abortion bans my, you trust this guy that he will not enforce federal abortion ban in one all the people he was to stop the administration with are pushing hard, not just legislative ban but for him to take action on his own to ban birth control and abortion across the country. i don't think people want to trust that. >> we are in a week waiting for several landmark decisions from the court i kind of wonder whether, traditionally the supreme court gets a certain group of the electorate exercise, whether right-wing conservatives or court watching democrats who understand the dynamics of the court. do you think it carries more weight in a moment like this? we will have decisions tomorrow night going into this debate, i wonder if you think that is an arrow in the biden quiver? >> you have a moment a lot of people are paying attention to the debate, a lot of important things happen at the court. you can make the case in the moment and sees on the opportunity to bring attention to the power of the court and the opportunity donald trump will have 10 name the most right-wing 32-year-old he can find to the courts the next four years and stacked the deck against us. i do think it is important case to be made. >> it is weird position for institutionalist like biden to bring up any of the nefarious questionable activities, the extracurricular activities of people like sam alito and clarence thomas. certainly, the sort of partisan makeup of the bench is fair game if you're talking about what happens in the next four years. jon and tommy, the economy. this is the most, i think tricky terrain for biden, going back to your first answer, the fight, the work continues. >> finish the job. >> it is the patriots. >> sure, super bowl lxxix. he has, i think the thing that is frustrating to democrats and progressives, the amount of economic populism biden has put into action, capping insulin prices, taking on large corporations, banning junk fees, taking on live nation, inc. the first president to walk the picket line. i do wonder whether he will be able to talk about any of that tonight because so much of his posture already feels like it is on the back foot with trump and the inflation message resonates to an eerie degree among the american public. >> yeah, that is why he can't spend a ton of time talking about what he accomplished him even though he accomplished a lot. when i got into office, because of the pandemic, inflation spiked all over the world communicate down faster here than anywhere else. you know what, people were dealing with high cost before the pandemic, dealing with high costs for decades. right now, housing and healthcare is too expensive so i'm working every single day to bring those costs down. we have some down but need to do more. lesson donald trump in office, he gave up corporate tax cut to rich people, he wants to do another one. do we think that is the best move for the middle class in the country? >> that must be so frustrating for president, i have to say. ron klain going out there saying, stop talking about bridges, biden spending too much time building bridges instead of connecting with voters. i'm sure that ron klain is telling joe biden that right now. helping with debate prep. >> barack obama with the first answer the debate with mitt romney when he lost the debate, instead of hitting mitt romney on his tax plan, the moderators set them up to do, he talked about his achievements on race to the top and education. i remember watching the clip the other day, all of us backstage rely, oh no. ron told him to be careful about doing that. >> that is what he spent his time on, it matters. i do wonder, there is a famous piece of sound of ronald reagan in 1984 addressing his age. we have time to play it? let's play it. >> i will not make age an issue of this campaign, i'm not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent travis use and inexperience. >> first of all, that machine, that shut down the age speculation, almost impossible to imagine any one thing biden can say. i wonder how you think he should broach it and whether he should go on offense about it first. >> it is remarkable okay zinger by literal trained actor shutdown a debate about his age. i think for biden -- >> we continue to play it to this day. >> biden will be more how he looks, his energy, how he sounds, whether he is punchy, finishes his bath and set of cutting him off. a lot of it is performance, it is feeder camp for politicians, hopefully they are practicing these things, get them up and energized and rested. that is the best bet. >> theater camp for politicians sounds like a place i never ever want to go. don't leave, i want to hear more about things like that after the break, jon and tommy. a lot to talk about including your new book so stick with me, it is out now, it is called democracy or else, how to save america and bake a brownie in 10 easy steps, i ad-libbed, that is not the full title of the book but you should still buy it. more to come with tommy vietor and jon favreau. more on primaries, steve kornacki a standing by at the big board. we will talk about the races tonight with significant consequences for the democratic party, that is right after the break. right thanks guys. 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