steven moore and robert reich, labor secretary during the clinton administration. currently he's a professor of public policy at the university of california at berkeley and author of "aftershock, the next economy in america's future" now out in paper back. ali, what happened today? >> reporter: we had a situation where it's not just fear we were talking about. this was actual fact. we started this morning with slow bad markets out of europe. then before the markets opened we got this report from morgan stanley which talked about slow growth around the world, telling us things we already knew. but they said we're on the precipice of a recession. they also cited errors in policy making here in the united states and in europe, and they said it's likely that european central bank and the fed would have to get further involved in this economy. now, you know all week we've been talking about rick perry saying it would be treasonous for the fed to get involved. while his comments may have been misinformed it represents a view in america that fed should do no more work in stimulating this economy. so now we have investors saying we need more investment. you got the morgan stanley saying we do. and you've got a lot of people in america saying don't do it. so we're at an impasse. investors said let's get our money out of there. they put it into bonds and into gold. >> the nikkei down 2% on opening. robert, i know you say look at unemployment more than you look at the dow. but when people's retirements are tied up in this roller coaster and every day it's up and down hundreds of points, what should people be thinking? >> anderson, obviously right now we have a jobs and wages and growth crisis. and not a debt crisis. and until we actually get more spending, whether it's individuals and businesses or even in the short term, government, we won't have enough aggregate demand to get people back to work and get the market moving and get economic growth actually back in force. that's not just in the united states, it's also in europe, it's also increasingly around the world. >> steven, i saw you say earlier today there's a lot of confidence in the united states particularly in president obama's ability to lead. but doesn't congress also -- i mean, there's a lot of people don't have much confidence in congress, either, in their ability to govern. >> yeah. you're right about that, anderson. but look, people look to the president in time of crisis like this. and i simply think that president has been off tone on the last week. i mean, as an example on his tour around the midwest this week, i mean, what was the message out of the white house? raise taxes on the rich. you may think that's a good thing to do for redistribution purposes but that's not going to get the economy moving. and i think by the way, anderson, there's a broader problem around the world. there just isn't much leadership anywhere in the world. where are the ronald reagans, the margaret thatchers, the strong figures talking about growth? i think it's missing. that's one component of it. by the way, ali, when you talked about the bad news today you were exactly right. but there's other bad news as well unfortunately. the housing numbers were pretty lousy. you mentioned manufacturing. it's hard to look at anything right now that's pointing in a very positive direction. >> the interesting thing, though, both of you guys opposite ends of the political spectrum do agree that aggregate demand will be the solution. if we can somehow get more people working, more people paying taxes, more people will be buying goods. and that's ultimately probably our best solution out of this. >> is this a presidential problem? is this an obama problem among others? >> well, i think we're in a vicious cycle right now. workers are consumers. consumers are workers. consumers are 70% of this economy. and if as workers they are worried about losing their jobs or have lost their jobs, if their wages are dropping and the median wage continues to drop, and if they see their major asset which is their homes continue to drop in value, then obviously they're not going to be in any mood to spend. if they don't spend then they're not going to be more jobs. which is exactly why it is important right now to have more of a dare i use the word stimulus or a jobs bill or a more active government that can counter act all of these recessionary trends. >> robert, you want to see taxes on the rich go up? >> well, i think as a matter in terms of dealing with the long-term deficits, the rich have to pay their fair share. but right now, right now if we're talking about right now, i don't want anybody's taxes to go up. and i want right now if i were going to make policy i would say we want to have government right now with an active jobs plan in the united states, we want the federal reserve board and the european central bank to be expansionary with regard to monetary policy, and we want fiscal policy to be expansionary around the world to the extent that it is possible without igniting inflation. >> bob, it already has been. i mean, i think one of the things that frustrates conservatives like me, anderson, is that we've done this. if you look over the last two, actually three years starting at the end of the bush administration, as you know, ali, the fed has had the pedal to the metal on the money supply. we've had record levels of money creation in this economy. and bob, as you know, we've had -- we spent a whole hell of a lot of money. we borrowed $4.5 trillion. this has been the biggest canadiens -- keyensian stimulus experience in the history of america. it hasn't worked. >> this is a recession, steven. we don't know what we didn't do because of it. >> that's true. we don't know whether we might have had a depression. but we do know if you look for example at what reagan did in the 80s, an opposite approach of cutting taxes and trying to get expenditures under control and slamming the brakes on the money supply in order to get inflation under control, we had a boom period after that. >> steven moore, if i may, this is nothing like the recession of '80-'81. the great rescission is much more like the great depression. it's a big, big burst of an asset bubble. when an asset bubble bursts, the government has got to do more than it typically does. the stimulus package, the first stimulus package was very, very small relative to the size of the shortfall in consumer demand, particularly when you add in that state and local governments were cutting like mad. >> just very briefly, steven and robert, both of you, steven, what do you think the chances of going back into recession are? >> you know, if you'd asked me that 48 hours ago i would have said i don't think there's a high prohibit, anderson. but look, my meter on recession went up today because of the bad news. but i still think what's more likely, anderson, is maybe 1 to 2% growth, kind of this slow growth which just isn't enough to create the jobs we need. >> robert? >> i think we're about at the 50-50 yard line right now with regard to recession. but i'm concerned also about the underlying structural problems. as long as so much of the national income is going to people at the top, the middle class just doesn't have the aggregate demand, the purchasing power, to keep the economy going. robert reich, appreciate your time, steven moore too ali appreciate yours as well. follow me on facebook i'm on twit @anderson cooper is it possible all the atrocities we have witnessed in syria just aren't what we're seeing, lies. we're going to hear from a top diplomat who says that. getting a first-hand report from the dissident who sees everything the ambassador denies. new details in the case of missing robyn gardner. the last person who saw her what he told police. first isha sesay david letterman has dealt with stalkers and blackmailers, now he's facing a potentially deadly threat from radical jihadists. we'll tell you who wants him dead and why and what he's doing about it when "360" continues. but hurry before this opportunity...disappears. the mercedes-benz summer event ends august 31st. 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[ male announcer ] we are insurance. ♪ we are farmers ♪ bum, ba-da-bum, bum, bum, bum ♪ desperate for nighttime heartburn relief? for many, nexium helps relieve heartburn symptoms caused by acid reflux disease. talk to your doctor about your risk for osteoporosis-related bone fractures if you take multiple daily doses of nexium for a long time. possible side effects include headache, diarrhea, and abdominal pain. other serious stomach conditions may still exist. talk to your doctor about nexium. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. we take it on ours. this summer put your family in an exceptionally engineered mercedes-benz now for an exceptional price during the summer event. but hurry, this offer ends august 31st. keeping them honest, in just a moment we're going to play my interview from earlier today with syria's ambassador to the united nations, the same man who compared the london riots to the is discriminate murder happening in syria. more than 2,000 murders human rights groups say. 2,000. in my interview you'll hear the ambassador adamantly tow the line of his government that syrian security forces have not attacked, not killed civilians. in the face of so much evidence with new videos coming out of syria every day, the ambassador repeats the claim made by president bashar al assad that armed gangs and terrorists are responsible for the violence. but we've seen no direct evidence of that. before we get to my interview, today the obama administration took its hardest line yet against the syrian government, calling on president bashar al assad to leave power and stop slaughtering his own people. britain, france, germany, canada and the european union immediately echoed that statement. at the same time, report out today by the united nations said that it found patterns of human rights violations and systematic attacks against civilians that may amount to crimes against humanity. as soon as anti-government protests broke out earlier this year,nd protestors were being shot dead in the streets, the syrian government, including the president himself, blamed the violence on seditious elements inside and outside the country and claims that that's what they are fighting. the government there has kept that message consistent. [ gunfire ] >> you look at videos like this, a person shot in the street and then government forces shooting at anyone who tries to retrieve their body. they're now using -- trying to get ropes and use a piece of metal to pull the body. finally they were able to. but time after time we've seen protesters shot dead in the streets or wounded in the streets and then government snipers shooting at anyone who tries to help that person. as other men try to remove the body they were fired on as well. we've seen that time and time again. now, all through this conflict, all through this bloody five-month-long conflict, human rights activists have reported that aid workers who try to rest cute wounded have been fired also on by security forces. cnn can't independently verify the claims since our reporters are not aloud inside syria. this video shows an ambulance that was struck by gunfire, one of the attendants wounded. one of the most sickening sites to come out of syria is violence perpetrated against innocent children, like 13-year-old hamza. according to his family he was kidnapped, tortured and killed. how could a 13-year-old child ever be a threat to a brutal, long-standing regime? the signs of torture on his bloated body told the world the answer. was this young boy part of an armed terrorist gang as the assad regime would have you believe? hamza has become a symbol of the uprising. kids took to the streets, some hoisted on their parents's shoulders, carrying signs and photos of hamza. do these youngsters look like thugs and armed terrorists to you? the senseless murders in syria, even of children, prompted the u.n. secretary general to comment that assad government has lost its sense of humanity. unfortunately, the killing of kids has not stopped despite world revulgs. a 2-year-old girl trying to escape with her family this week from the government onslaught in the coastal city of latakia shot in the right eye and killed. the 2-year-old, not a threat to anybody, not even strong enough to hold up a gun. cnn can't confirm this but activists, people who took these videos say a government bullet took her life. one man called assad a dog and a pig in this video, two major insults in arabic. for five months now, human rights activists inside and outside syria are telling the outside world that security forces have shown no mercy, firing on crowds of peaceful protestors who are simply asking for their civil human rights. this rally was broken up by gunfire in march. >> this protest was back in june. there may not be personal freedom in syria but the government sure has plenty of ammunition. and time and again, over all these months, almost half a year, this is what the world has witnessed, syrians struggling to get their wounded or murdered friends or even strangers off the streets. still being fired upon when they try. now listen to what bashar ja'afari has to say about what's happening in his country. >> mr. ambassador, today president obama called for president assad to step down saying "the future of syria must be determined by its people, but president bashar al assad is standing in their way. his calls for dialogue and reform have run hollow while he is imprisons, torturing and slaughtering his own people. for the sake of the syrian people, the time has come for president assad to step aside". how do you respond? >> i think this is an unacceptable statement coming from an important heavy weight administration in the world affairs. we were expecting the american administration to go in a different direction, actually. >> do you deny, though, that your president, his government has imprisoned, tortured and killed thousands of syrian citizens in the past five months alone? >> i deny categorically and une equivalent okayally all these wrong references to bloodshed and killings taking place in my country. the way they are described by the media. >> we've seen countless videos of children with broken bodies returned after weeks in detention. we've seen people being shot at as they try to retrieve the dead and wounded bodies of their friends and family on the street. we've seen protest after protest broken up with tear gas and security forces, uniformed and not, firing live ammunition into crowds. are all of these lies? >> i have also countless other videos showing exactly the opposite. i am not denying that we have loss of lives over there. i'm saying that we should be objective in our approach while analyzing what's going on in syria. what's going on in syria is that we do have an opposition, legitimate national opposition, and we are listening to their claims. but at the same time, we do have armed terrorist groups that are resisting the syrian forces crimes against civilians. >> who are these armed terrorist groups and why is it after so many years in power they've all of a sudden sprung up out of the blue? all of this began in dara when some children were arrested and being held and peaceful protesters came out after mosque one day calling for -- asking for the children to be released. and they were fired upon. some of them were shot dead. they weren't even calling for the government to be overthrown. they were calling for the kids to be released and then basic reforms. and now, because of the repression, because of the response by your government, it has escalated. >> the government is not running against the civilians. these civilians are our own people. we are there for protect them. >> but the government is killing them. >> we are against the terrorist armed groups. >> what terrorist armed groups are they? who are they? name them. >> yeah. those who have killed so far, 500 officers and soldiers of our army and police officers. and police soldiers. and security forces. >> again, you haven't named who these unnamed mysterious armed terrorists are. >> they are the outcomes of the american-british invasion of iraq, anderson. they are the dakfiri group, the muslim military wing. they are all these kind of extremist groups in the area. all of them spread all over the area after the american-british invasion of iraq. >> but you have had a -- i mean, your government has been in power since 2000. before that, bashar al assad's father was in charge. a very restrictive government. it seems incomprehensible that all of a sudden you have thousands of salafists who are calling for the overthrow of the government. it just doesn't make logical sense. i mean, are you denying that there were peaceful protests, that there are peaceful protestors who have legitimate gripes, who have legitimate demands for basic dignity and freedom? >> the government allowed peaceful demonstrations to take to the streets, and they are protected by the police. >> sir, you know that's not true. you're a very educated man. you simply know that is not true. in dara when people were asking for children to be released, you're telling me they weren't fired upon, they weren't killed? >> you don't know all the faces of the story, anderson. >> you're not allowing us in. you're not allowing reporters to actually go to the frontlines and see. you're restricting reporters. it's disingenuous to say you don't know the truth when you're not allowing the international community to see the truth. >> this is wrong, too. we have allowed three delegations, big delegations of journalists and reporters to enter the country. >> come on. you keep them in damascus or you control them very carefully. >> we don't control anybody. we are there to protect them from armed groups. >> sir, i reported in damascus. and i had a minder with me who watched everything i did and every single person i talked to. and that was at a time when you didn't allegedly have armed groups going around. so i mean, to say that you're allowing free rein for reporters is just simply not true. >> anderson, you are biased and taking sides. and you shouldn't do that because you are a seasoned -- >> i'm taking side of the truth. i just think what you're saying, you have not offered any proof. >> this is not the truth. i am afraid this is not the truth. you are reporting what somebody