john boehner, still a few votes short as he tries to muscle his plan through the house of representatives and send the message to the democrat-controlled senate and the democratic-controlled white house. however, we're in limbo tonight as this drama plays out. the speaker in his office with his top deputies. we're told pizza brought in a short time ago. they're trying desperately to round up the last few votes they need to get this vote through the house tonight. the vote has been delayed, not postponed. the house leadership still plans to have the vote this evening, but the speaker likely to cancel it if they can't get the votes instead of suffering what would be a humiliating debate -- defeat, excuse me. the speaker started the day upbeat and he had a news earlier in the day and he said his plan was the only plan that would please his conservative majority and he said meet most of the president's standards. >> throughout this debate we've promised the american people that we'd cut spending more than what we would increase the debt limit. and we also said that we would not entertain any increases in taxes. so, today the house is going to vote on a bill that meets that test. it's been certified by the nonpartisan congressional budget office. there are no gimmicks. there are no smokescreens. >> and it looked like that conservatives were making progress. the speaker making progress. at the white house, though, they decided to send a very clear signal that this plan was not acceptable. why doesn't the white house like it? because you would have a temporary increase in the debt ceiling for now, then the president would have to come back several months from now in the middle of his 2012 re-election campaign and ask again for the congress to increase the debt ceiling, to come forward, again, with a package of spending cuts. from the white house perspective to perhaps again make his cases that the taxes on the wealthy americans should be raised, so the white house saying to speaker boehner, that your plan is no good at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. >> what we need to do is get beyond voting dead on arrival measures when we have few days left. >> it looked like the speaker was making progress. one of the key questions, what about the new members elected, that made him the speaker? gave republicans, that gave them the majority, this was their defining issue to come to washington to put an end to what they viewed as reckless definite spending destroyping ting the c. and he appeared to be picking up the votes. lesson to shawn duffy. >> is this as big as we wanted to go? heck, no. we wanted to go bigger. we ran on going bigger. but this is the only proposal on the table that accomplishes the goals that we set out to do. >> progress but apparently and this is why we have such a drama unfolding on capitol hill, not enough progress. the speaker is still short the votes. he's delayed the key vote, a key vote to not only if you are sitting at home, maybe you think the debt ceiling should be raised, maybe you should, it's a fundamentally important political showdown, some people think the speaker's hold on his job could be in jeopardy if he loses this vote. let's go to kate bolduan, do they believe they can twist enough arms to get enough votes to pass this tonight? >> reporter: fabulous question this evening and one that is very hard to answer at this moment. i can tell you, let me just give you the lay of the land what you can probably see a little bit of, john, you were talking about the speaker's office, it's right down the hallway, what we're seeing now rank-and-file members going in and out of the house speaker's office. as we're being told, members coming out, they have told me that the leadership is asking for their vote. apparent at this point as they've called a recess that the leaders are still working at this late hour, still working to try to secure the votes, and that they're not there yet. and they clearly want certainty that they are going to have the votes before they take this back up to the floor. i'll tell you, congressman paul ryan, the chair of the house budget committee, he did speak with reporters, my colleague deidra walsh, one of them, and he's been helping the leadership in trying to get members on board with their lobbying effort. and he told -- and he told reporters that things are coming along, but, of course, john, as you know, things are very much in flux at this moment. they are hunkered down trying to secure the votes, trying to twist the arms as we say, and right now it looks like they intend to have the vote, that's what aides tell us, at this moment, but we'll, of course, have to be following that. >> kate bolduan will stay with us throughout the evening as we track this drama. two votes the speaker would like to have but he does not have two members of the republican class, two that campaigned in the midterm elections saying send me to washington and i'll try to bring fiscal sanity to the country, they are facing a key challenge not only in their individual careers but as the new republican majority tries to prove its the governing majority in washington. they are with me this evening. gentlemen, the spook speaker do have your votes. anything that he can do at the last minute to convince you to support this plan? >> i cannot support this plan. i would love to be able to support speaker boehner, leader cantor. i have to have something that transcends election cycles. i have to have something systemic that guarantees the 75th time we raise the debt ceiling it's the last time we raise the debt ceiling. and absent that transformative, systemic remedy, i can't support it. >> and yet, congressman, the speaker came into your caucus meeting yesterday, i was told he was quite emotional, forgive me for using the language, you need to get your asse s in line behind him, if you want to get in line wi behind them, you have to approve his plan. could his speakership be undermined if he loses this vote, and that doesn't have enough power to sway you. >> no, we're all behind the speaker and leader eric cantor. and they've done a great job. but i think trey also nailed it, we want to make sure we never get here again. i want to support something that makes sure we never get here again and last week a lot of us rank-and-file republicans believed we voted for something that would do that, cut, cap and balance, and it would be something the american people support, and, you know, that's something that i wish we'd, again, send back to the senate. >> i under thastand that, but w now at a point, though, where we're having a fifth grade syncs lesson. you control the house of representatives. the democrats control the other side of capitol hill on the senate side. you have a democratic president a mile or so down the road. is your position, no, you won't budge and compromise and go their way, even if -- even if -- we get to august 2nd and the country goes into default? >> i would argue to you that many of us have already compromised, we've already voted twice to raise the debt ceiling. it was implicit in paul ryan's budget. it was explicit in cut, cap and balance. so, i've already voted to raise the debt ceiling twice. what i have to have is a guarantee where i can take back to the people i work for that we have done something to bend the spending arc. not a plan, not a deal, but a solution that transcends election cycles. i'm not concerned about president obama's election cycle. i'm not concerned about mine. you can have this job if you'll give me the systemic remedy that means we don't have to have this conversation again. i won't come back if you can give me that remedy. >> so, what happens if the senate defeats -- let's assume the house can get together enough votes and i'm not sure that's a good assumption tonight, but let's assume the speaker wiggles this one out, the senate votes down his plan, and senator reid is prepared to do it tonight. there might be someone watching at home, in your district or somewhere else, if we get to the point of default, people say everybody's interest rates goes up, the possibility that the job market which is already tough would get worse, that there would be a domestic economic impact potentially a huge one and a global economic impact. are you willing to defend your principles to take that risk? >> i think we all need to take a breath. i don't think default is an option and trey and i aren't talking about default. this whole obsession with august 2nd from the beginning i don't think has been helpful. let's take a few days and get this right. we know in august our government's going to have plenty of revenues to service our debt, take care of our military and take care of our senior citizens. too often the white house in this debate hasn't been real productive because they've been trying to scare the american people. let's take a few days and get this right. >> but the government is projected to take in about $172 billion next month if you add up the bills that we know we'll get, they're in exemption of $300 billion, so something has to give, somebody wouldn't get food stamps, federal workers wouldn't get paid, payments wouldn't go out, somebody wouldn't get paid, are you prepared to say, i'm sorry, but we may have to have that conversation, we may have to decide whether you get your food stamps or you get your military check, captain, because this is an important point? >> well, there are five organization bills that are pending in the house right now that would set the priorities and direct secretary geithner what to pay. so, i would say this, that the dichotomy of default or not default is a false dichotomy. the real dichotomy is default or downgrade. and all the ratings agencies have said, a default is cataclysmic, nobody wants that, but do you want a downgra, beca that's a tax on everyone, it raises your interest rates and if we don't bend the spending arc, we'll get a downgrade. the real conundrum is not default or not default, it's default, downgrade or a systemic fix and i want a systemic fix. >> any concern at all as you defend what is your principle that what might happen in the end is if the house and the senate can't reconcile and everybody blinks, that president gets the authority to raise the debt ceiling and you don't get anything, you don't get a down payment, i know you think the current plan is insufficient, but it's a down payment to what you want. if the speaker doesn't get the two votes, are you concerned by standing firm you could actually lose more than you gained? >> absolutely. but, again, i think the american people are behind us. your own station took a poll last week that showed most of the american people supported this notion of cut, cap and balance. i think it could be terribly producti productive, again, if we sent that to the senate and they can amend it and send it back to us. that would be a real systemic reform like trey's talking about. >> appreciate your time tonight. the speaker's office is trying to grab you on the way out. they're serving pizza. >> i'm eating in tonight. >> gentlemen, i really appreciate it. >> thank you, john. let's bring into the conversation erick erickson, he's the editor in chief of restdate.com, he's urging them to hold firm and our chief political analyst joining us, gloria borger. you said the boehner plan is not enough, are you prepared to have the speaker lose or pull from the floor and not have a vote on something that is incredibly consequential to his leadership, never mind the country? >> oh, you know, i don't think it's that consequential to his leadership. i don't remember this conversation about whether nancy pelosi would lose her speakership if obama care couldn't pass the house. i think that that's not really true. the speaker will still be the speaker, but if he continues to make people mad, the boeing legislation is being delayed, that could hurt, but, no, i think it would be a great night for the country if john boehner's plan was denied. put it in perspective, john, last week the entire conservative movement was unified behind republicans and five democrats in the house, all the republicans in the senate on a plan and this week the speaker couldn't make that the foundation for compromise. he said he had to go with the second plan. >> gloria, if the speaker has to pull this vote tonight and he fails, he loses tonight, what happens? >> well, i disagree with erik, because i think it's bad for the speaker. and i think the country is stuck. i mean, i think harry reid would then proceed, but, of course, his plan would go nowhere. so, i think you'd be sort of back to back-channel negotiations which haven't really been able to occur because, of course, the senate republican leader, mitch mcconnell, backs john boehner's plan. but, you know, in looking at those two congressmen, john, it seems to me what we're watching are congressmen who believe they came to washington to be transformational, and they don't want anything less than that. and the speaker is trying to twist the arms of members of congress who don't feel beholden to him, and you know this, john, better than i do, that it always helps when people are elected and they feel that they owe you something. these members of congress, these freshmen, they don't owe the establishment republicans anything. >> we'll keep checking in on capitol hill with our sources here, if you're just joining us, the speaker of the house, john boehner, delaying his vote on the plan to give the authority to raise the debt ceiling and enact some spending cuts. conservative members of his own caucus says it's not enough. then, of course, we'd have to go to the united states senate where the democratic leader says he has a plan. when we come back, a democratic senator who says, no, mr. leader, i'm not for that one either. network. a living, breathing intelligence that's helping drive the future of business. in here, inventory can be taught to learn. ♪ machines have a voice. ♪ medical history follows you. it's the at&t network -- a network of possibilities... committed to delivering the most advanced mobile broadband experience to help move business... forward. ♪ to help move business... forward. somewhere in america, a city comes to life. it moves effortlessly, breathes easily. it flows with clean water. it makes its skyline greener and its population healthier. all to become the kind of city people want to live and work in. somewhere in america, we've already answered some of the nation's toughest questions. and the over sixty thousand people of siemens are ready to do it again. siemens. answers. live images here of the united states capitol on the floor of the united states senate. a night of dramatic breaking news on capitol hill. the senate waiting to see if the house will pass its plan to raise the debt ceiling and to cut some federal spending. that was the house plan tonight, to pass that plan and send it to the senate. the republican house speaker, though, has put that all on hold. he's in his office right now because he's short the vote. it's a landmark vote, he's short the vote to pass his plan which would cut $900 billion in spending and give the administration the authority to borrow more money to keep the government up and running. in the senate democratic leader harry reid has a different plan, his plan would be $2 trillion in cuts and raise the debt ceiling through the 2012 presidential election. our next guest says he would vote no on the house republican plan and the democratic senate plan, he's democratic senator joe manchin from west virginia. i want to ask you, as a new member of the senate and a former governor, if you're going to vote no, you would vote no on both plans. how does the country avoid default and meet the house republican test and they do control one side of capitol hill, to cut spending? >> let me tell you, the purpose for me to go to the floor tonight, today, was to basically apologize to my fellow west virginians and all americans for what they've had to endure and witness. with that being said, i believe there is a plan that can be worked. i appreciate all the parties involved, the speaker, of course, my majority leader, harry reid, working very hard. the one i think will work is the parallel. i've got to vote for a long-term fix. i didn't come here to kick the can down the road short. we got two plans, short and shorter. and we've got to fix it for the long term, i think it's been pretty well mapped out. we need a $4 trillion swing in order to get it to downward glide to get the financial house of ours in order. and i want to see a guaranteed vote. so, if we're going to do, raise the debt, let's make sure we have a guaranteed vote to fix the debt. >> so, you want a guaranteed vote to have at least $4 trillion in deficit reduction over ten years, but would you vote on a shorter-term plan that had a smaller target if you were promised that would you get that second installment? >> oh, i think absolutely. if i was promised -- and i think the promise to the american people is that there's a shorter period of time that we're going to be able to put together a plan that gives us a minimum of a $4 trillion fix. which is what all the ratings agencies and everybody has evaluated and if you have that running parallel and you can get to that point but you can also make sure that we do not default, but the most important thing also is make sure that the credit rating is not downgraded. john, that can be as bad if not worse, because i've seen the state, in my state, sometimes, we were challenged, and it's hard to raise a debt -- a major credit rating, and it takes an awful lot of time to do that. so, you got to be very careful what we're doing here. >> i spent a lot of time in your state over the years, especially in recent years, and it's having a tough time in like many places in west virginia. maybe some in west virginia are saying good for you, senator manchin, and you have your views, and you're firm on them, and you heard the tea party members who said they have their plans. everybody has their nonnegotiatables and we're days away from the potential default of the united states government if somebody in your state is applying for a mortgage they're told next week the interest rates could go up, your credit card rates might go up, even harder to get a job in this economy. as a former governor, how do we get something done in the next 72 hours when everybody says, well, i want to be for this, but i'm non-negotiable on this? >> it's a shame we're down to 72 hours, but when i became governor, we set our course on getting our financial house in order. we had surpluses for six years in a row, the last three years we've increased our credit rating. not by expanding government and raising taxes, living within our means, picking our priorities. we didn't cut any programs whatsoever. it's time for a correction. i understand that. but you have to have a balance of revenue through waste, fraud, and abuse, making sure everybody's paying their fair share, and also to make sure that we're living within our means. we haven't made that commitment yet and it has to be done. the $4 trillion downward glide has to be accomplished, and everybody has said that. and i think it's imperative that -- for us to do it now. the time is right to do it now. and just saying, well, we have $2 trillion or $900 billion and that gets us down to next year or right after 2012, what about 2013 and beyond? i'm worried about the next generation, not the next election. >> take me behind the curtain. we have the republicans saying our plan. they're having trouble getting the votes tonight, but they say their plan is the best plan. senator reid said his plan is the best plan, the white house says their approach is the best approach. take us behind the curtain. are there