to me. >> what happens when you mix ideology with deception? and undercover activist james o'keefe has a new media target. >> we discovered something else interesting about "huffington post" reporter sam stine. >> he accuses the reporter of getting his sources drunk. is this the new face of conservative journalism? plus, as facebook reveals more and more about us, is privacy passe? why is blogger jeff jarvis revealing so much about his personal life? we'll ask him. i'm howard kurtz, and this is "reliable sources." every week it seems there's another one, and there are at least a dozen more to go -- televised drama featuring mit and rick and herman and newt and michele and the rest of the gang. but these primetime programs, are they really about chris wallace and anderson cooper and wolf blitzer and brian williams and charlie rose? >> it's time now to meet the 2012 republican presidential contenders. >> here's the format for our debate tonight. >> let's get to it and meet the candidates. >> good evening, candidates. we're going to get right to it tonight. >> the next question is for you -- >> we debate this evening about spending and taxes. >> it's no secret that rick perry has had a tough time during the debates and his campaign has been hinting that he might just take a pass in the future. >> these debates are set up for nothing more than to tear down the candidates. it's hard to lay out your ideas and concepts with a one-minute response. if there was a mistake made, it's probably ever doing one of the campaigns when all they're interested in is stirring it up between the candidates. >> perry's camp said yesterday he will attend the next few debates at least. joining us to examine television's role in these debates and, i'm afraid, the press coping with the birther issue, here in washington, jennifer ruben, author of "the right turn" blog for the "washington post." roger simon, reporter for "politico." and john aravosis, author of americablog.com. why are there so many debates? >> the debates are media driven. they're not driven by the candidates. the candidates do hate them not just because they're afraid of each other but because they take over the schedule. you have to go to where the debate is, even if you'd like to go california instead to raise money. you have to study. you can't afford to make any mistakes. what really benefit from the debates? the branding of the media on the backdrop behind them. we are pushing these debates. >> i would not quarrel that at all. the ratings pretty good this season. cnn got 5.5 million viewers for the most recent debate, fox got 6.5 million. in the sound bite, saying nothing more than to tear down the candidate. is he right? >> that comes from a candidate who's been torn down at the debates. >> he has the expertise on the subject. >> exactly. i wouldn't choose anybody else in that department. i think actually these have been some of the more interesting debates that we've had in any recent election. i think they've been substantive. we've heard economic plans, we've heard about a little bit of foreign policy, we'll have a complete foreign policy debate coming up. we've talked about some social issues, talked a lot about the economy. i think they've been very beneficial. there's a relatively large field. most of these people were unknown to the vast majority of voters. that's how they got to know them. and this notion that in retail politicking that's how you get to know voters i think is a misnomer. you don't get to see that many people even in iowa shaking hands one by one. >> these debates are about selling conflict. when the debates are seemed successful by the rest of the press, it is when they're beating each other up. >> but the lincoln-douglass debate wasn't about the two agreeing. you've seen gingrich and a couple of the others saying, oh, you're here to make us argue. and rick perry as in the piece you showed, that's sort of the point of the debates. we always complain about voters that debates are never real. the candidates never go after each other. they never have to do point-counterpoint. i think we've been seeing more in the debates recently. i agree with jennifer, i found it interesting. >> let me say if i could. one thing that perry said happens to be correct. since i get so few moments to say that about what perry says, it's ridiculous that the responses are limited to one minute and 30-second followups. i mean, you know, tell us your plans for the future of the middle east. you have one minute. >> yeah. >> that is totally media driven. it's a good tv show. >> good pace. >> it's snappy. >> i have the impression that candidates are doing fewer events and debates have become the campaign. am i right or wrong? >> well, someone did analysis saying that it is the same number of debates this cycle as last cycle. i don't know if that's true. we're certainly paying more attention to the debates. but they are not having the desired effect. they are not shortening the field. only one candidate has dropped out. >> i don't think that's the point of the debates. the point of the debates is to educate the voters. >> the point is to get ratings, according to what i'm hearing at this table. let me move to interviews that perry has been doing. the texas governor had been staying off the interview circuit. it began last week with "parade" magazine. he was asked it president obama and the birth certificate, which i thought was an issue that was dead and buried. he says, i don't know, i don't have a definitive answer. trump thinks he's not -- wasn't born here. then it came much in a sitdown with cnbc. >> middle mitt after the president released his birth certificate said that issue is done and settled, i accept it. you chose to keep it alive in your interview with "parade" magazine over the weekend. why did you do that? >> it's a good issue to keep alive. i'm really not worried about the president's birth certificate. it's fun to poke at him and say, hey, how about -- let's see your grades and your birth certificate. >> it's fun apparently. has the press let perry off the hook for raising this birther nonsense again? >> you know, a little bit. but i think perry did take a hit. legitimately. either he showed a little bit of a lack of discipline by going there, i think, or he actually maybe believed some stuff and is desperate to get attention. i think either way, i think perry did take even more of a hit now by giving a gad answer on the issue. >> i said on bloomberg that perry was badgered about the birther issue 20 times. he could have shut it down in the first question, right? >> absolutely. this was a bad time to do this. this was the week that he was rolling out his economic plan. a new team. this was supposed to be i turnaround. for three days the media talked about this issue. it also brought out of the woodwork someone like jeb bush who has been really silent and staying back from the race. i spoke to him during the week, and he was perturbed. this is not what the republican party should be talking about, he said. and he did take perry to task. >> there was a piece on you in roger simon's politico, saying you're rick perry's worst nightmare. said you've written 60 blog posts about him using words like hostile, provincial, buffoon, know-it-all husband, i saw the other day. and that the perry camp can't persuade you to give their man a break. >> i think perry is his own worst enemy, as we've seen this week. the number they came up was 60. i write about 200 blog posts a month so that's a small chunk of things. >> what about the notion that you seem to have good relations with the romney camp, romney gave you an interview. and seems like you have nothing good to see about rick perry. >> well, i think the proof is in the pudding. what i was writing one or two months ago, the entire media is writing now. i think i was ahead of the curve a bit. he's at 7% in iowa. there are a lot of people who think he's not doing very well right now. >> can i say one thing about the birther issue? it's not a fun issue to poke somebody on. it is more than a little bit racist. it grew -- not everyone who believes it is a racist, but it grew out of the belief that a black man could not be legitimately elected to the president of the united states. now why would perry use that in the primaries instead of saving it for the general when he's running against president obama? well, it's because being extreme perhaps and a little bit racist perhaps gives you good bonafides in a republican primary. shows him you're on the same side as they are. >> it's a dog whistle. >> absolutely. >> and that's why i wondered why it was just -- i thought it was kind of a one-day story, the fact that -- he stretched it out when he came back to it with harwood on cnbc. but perry has now been courting the conservative media. he did the o'reilly interview we showed you on fox. he was on "fox news sunday" this morning. chris wallace on that program said, where's mitt romney? he hasn't done a sunday show, said chris wallace, for a year and a half. i go guess he doesn't feel he has to. >> he's not done it for the reason perry hasn't done debates. he sees no upside in them. he thinks he's going to get slammed on his -- >> what about the responsibility to deal with the media and share your views on the issues with the american, blah, blah -- >> sarah palin got away with it during the last campaign. we on the left -- >> she was running for vice president. >> one might argue that that's still a pretty important position -- >> it is? >> when the presidential candidate was 72 years old or however old he was. she got away with not doing a lot of press. and she got away with it. >> how about herman cain, who's done a million interviews and keeps digging himself into a hole, karl rove at fox has been hammering cain. and i wrote about this where, you know, he -- it wasn't clear what his position was on abortion. he said he was joking about an electrified board defense, then said he wasn't joking, on and on. his campaign says he's tired, they're going to slow the pace. the media criticism -- he seems impervious -- >> in national polls he's doing well. it's scaring romney and perry. >> i think for now he's the receptacle of the not-romney vote. i think it's more about the reticence of the base to accept romney as the lead candidate, and it may not be anything he has to do. and the other candidates have already wiped themselves out. he's a relatively new face. he is a pleasant person, he's a good guy. they don't have a problem telling a pollster, you know, i like herman cain. >> i agree but with the issue of pressing him on taxes, foreign policy, maybe people don't think, particularly republican voters, that the media have much credibility either. >> well, i think you're right. and i agree. but i think there's a little bit more. it's hard to make fun of a candidate who accepts the role of a buffoon. who put out -- >> buffoon? >> who puts out a commercial with a guy smoking and blowing smoke at the camera, who puts out the yellow flowers commercial. afterwards -- >> you're saying he's been an entertainer? >> consciously. he used to do that for a living. used to be a promotional speaker, an inspirational speaker. that's what he's doing now. and it's hard to -- >> but he's entertaining, i would argue. look, i'm not going to vote for the guy. but he is doing better in the polls. i have to admit the first time i saw him, i thought this guy's more interesting than i thought. i thought he'd be a nut -- >> if you said you were going vote, that would have made news. we'll break here. president obama hits jay leno's couch and challenges him about an article on libya in "the new yorker." a look at the leak in a moment. . and then, in one blinding blink of an eye, their tree had given its last. but with their raymond james financial advisor, they had prepared for even the unthinkable. and they danced. see what a raymond james advisor can do for you. [husband:] getting cold out here. [wife:] in here too. we need more affordable energy in this country. we need to protect the environment. what about the economy? what about our planet? [announcer:] at conocophillips, we're helping power america's economy with cleaner, affordable natural gas. more jobs. less emissions. a good answer for everyone. so with affordable energy that we can get to safely... we could afford to eat out more often. our daughter likes my cooking. don't you lori... lori? president obama was on jay leno this week, and the talk turned to a famous phrase that popped up on "the new yorker" during the intervention in libya. >> you took some heat for the whole leading from behinds tactic with libya. explain that. >> the truth was this was a phrase that the media picked up on. but it's not one that i ever used. >> no one said he said. "the new yorker's" writer adistributed the words to an unnamed adviser. tommy veeter told "usa today" that no one in the white house uttered the phrase that adviser could be one of hundreds of people, maybe someone at a party. he responded on twitter that his source was in fact a white house official. jennifer rubin, does the white house have a legitimate beef with that loaded phrase being attributed to an unnamed aide? >> i don't think so. i think this is a legitimate credit sis of the administration, that they had this idea they that they would rely more on multilateral institutions, that they didn't want the united states "isolated" in the u.n. security council. they wanted -- >> whether leading from behind is true, a fair characterization, should journalists be quoting unnamed aides as saying this is what we should be doing? >> any journalist wants somebody on the record, the best is someone in the background. it's always best to attribute sources. if it was used as it was in the piece, to describe -- the identity of the source was not as person as the description going on in the piece, a substantial piece, really detailed this phenomenon. i didn't have a problem with it. >> you interviewed the white house chief of staff, bill daly. he was contrasting himself with his predecessor, rahm emanuel. he said, i'm not going to be the leaker in chief. then he also said, "i'm all for leaking when it's organized." >> that's what white houses do, that's why they have giant communications staffs. when you have a phrase like ryan lizzie used, that important, the piece becomes about the credibility of the reporter right writing it. fortunately, he has impeccable credentials. he's -- i believed it because he wrote it. if it had been some other name on it, i don't know. >> what did you take away from that sit down with daly about his view of the media -- i understand you have more. >> it will be in tuesday in "politico." what's interesting to me is that the democratic progressive white house views the press as a filler it must -- filter it must get around or penetrate exactly the same way conservatives white houses have felt. the press is still not so much the enemy but a burden. a barrier to get their message around so they can get to the people directly. >> i wrote a book on the clinton white house being obsessed with dealing with and communicating through the media filter. >> even during the campaign, we saw that a lot. remember, this white house or campaign was going to youtube to do all of their statement. and they're just trying to get around the media completely. i think that's not unheard of and not shocking. it's just the way it is. >> i've got a lightning round here. "the new york times" wrote that the following about the 20 2 campaign, we can put it up for three months, the press will engage in an extended mask raid designed to persuade readers and viewers that the republican presidential namz is actually up for grabs because barring an unprecedented suspension in the laws of american politics, mitts mitt has this thing wrapped up. is this right? is the press engaged in some giant pretense as a competitive race? >> i think there is a desire to have a horse race. and on one of the worst weeks of the campaign for the perry people. journalists were writing columns, comeback time. wasn't a comeback time. i think there is a desire to have a horse race. they want competition, and the other hand, they should look at the real competition which arguably might be newt gingrich now. and certainly at least in the polls, herman cain. >> it sounds corrupt. creating a fake race to keep this thing alive. >> no. we haven't had a single vote yet. >> that's right. >> no. usually the criticism is that the media's already decided. to wit, president hillary clinton. i came on this show a lot that year. we kept hearing about, oh, hillary's going to win, awed of a sudden hillary wasn't going to win. the media and everybody switched. it's a little premature. >> it was a well written but dumb column for two reasons. one, how would you do a press conspiracy today? i've been in 1,000 press rooms after a debate or after a speech. usually in the basement of a high school gym. and all you hear is the tick, tick, tick of fingers on laptops. you never hear someone standing up and saying, "okay, here's the line for tomorrow. we're going to say that romney is still not a winner." >> no, but i thought -- you build up one of the other candidates, not that we got in a room and decided this, and say perry is coming back. and -- >> that's the opposite. and i'm -- sorry to disagree. i'm taking my life in my hands here. but what the press really wants is not a horse race. they want the horse race to be over. they want the field to be narrowed. they can't cover eight people. they can't write a debate story with eight people in the lead. they tonight have the money to -- they don't have the money to cover eight people. >> and that would affect your expense account in iowa and new hampshire. i know you're dying to spend the winter there. thanks for joining us. coming up in the second part of "reliable sources," vice president bide send ambushed by a human events newspaper writer and james o'keefe's latest undercover scheme targets a "huffington post" reporter. is gotcha journalism helping or hurting the conservative cause? plus, blogger jeff jarvis on why we should be sharing more, much more about ourselves on line. ♪ we're centurylink... a new kind of broadband company committed to providing honest, personal service from real people... 5-year price-lock guarantees... consistently fast speeds... and more ways to customize your technology. ♪ delivering mail, medicine and packages. yet they're closing thousands of offices, slashing service, and want to lay off over 100,000 workers. the postal service is recording financial losses, but not for reasons you might think. the problem ? a burden no other agency or company bears. a 2006 law that drains 5 billion a year from post-office revenue while the postal service is forced to overpay billions more into federal accounts. congress created this problem, and congress can fix it. when you're a sports photographer, things can get out of control pretty quickly. so i like control in the rest of my life... especially my finances. that's why i have slate, with blueprint. i can create my own plan to pay down large purchases faster... or avoid interest on everyday items. that saves me money. with slate from chase, i'm always in control. financially, anyway. get slate with blueprint and save money. call 855-get-slate today. for "human events." on his web site, he portrays himself as an ambush artist. he initially acts friendly toward congressman barney frank and asks him about a 20-year-old scandal in which the democrat had a relationship with someone who turned out to be a male prostitute. >> pleasure to meet you, sir. >> where are you from, jason? >> brooklyn, new york. with the bad economy and all -- with the bad economy and all,