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flipped, what he tells prosecutors about whether that lawyer tried to shape his testimony in any way. there's no evidence that that happened, but if he made those allegations, that could be a problem for this lawyer, but there's also an issue with the special counsel. the judge in florida, aileen cannon is questioning why the special counsel used a washington, d.c., grand jury when the case was preceding under a florida grand jury. she hasn't made a ruling on this yet. it could be a problem for both sides of this case, ana. >> thank you very much for that update. when we're back in just 60 seconds, the first republican presidential debate is tonight. what can the contender do to stand out among the crowded field, or will the absent front runner dominate the conversation? steve kornacki takes us back to some 2016 debate moments that could provide some clues. plus, an emotional county meeting in maui in the aftermath of hawaii's fires. >> we've lost our people. we've lost our homes, and for
A wealthy Florida couple was murdered in their home where nine of their 16 children were sleeping. Seven people would be charged with their murders. This is the story of Melanie and Byrd Billings.
sunday night, you might have heard of donald trump's former attorney, a man named jim trusty. you might have heard him offer up a novel theory about the classified documents case against the former president. >> there's a lot of shenanigans, in terms of grand jury usage. you know, you don't do a grand jury investigation for a year, only to move it to another district, unless there's more to the story. they'll be litigation i assume, that will relate to these issues of how the grand jury was used or abused. but it's certainly again, new territory when the doj shifts an investigation at the last-minute, to an entirely different venue. >> okay, so that's mr. trusty, floating the idea that the special counsel's use of a d.c. -based grand jury, the one that he has heard this case for months, that that is somehow suspicious. and that somehow, prosecutors
she deemed the use of that grand jury suspicious. judge cannon questioned the legal propriety of that move, and she ordered special counsel prosecutors to explain themselves by august 22nd, so that the issue may be litigated. now, either there is a really unusual psychic connection between the mar-a-lago judge and one of trump's former lawyers, or, back with us is andrew weissmann, former member of the special counsel robert mueller's team, co-host of the prosecuting donald trump podcast, and the man, credit where credit is due game of that theory. that judge cannon surprised ruling just might be related to jim trusty's on air arguments the day also before is joyce vance former u.s. attorney -- and current professor of the
and the judge said, why was this submitted to me under seal? you didn't set out a basis, and struck them from the record. the basis, i mean -- had the same reaction, which was back -- after our jaws clatter to the ground, the basis is grand jury secrecy. i mean, that is again 101. there is no more than you need to say. and the second part is, she then said something about where the other investigation was, which is also grand jury secrecy. so, the government has to be thinking, what do we do at this point? >> yeah, and joyce to that and. i mean, the thing that sort of rescued the special master debacle was the 11th circuit, not known as a bastion of liberalism. do you think somehow they get involved in this? i mean, there are plenty of trump appointed judges, and they seem to understand the law in the way that judge cannon does not. >> so i think we know that the special counsel does not want to have to go to the 11th circuit. he is trying to focus straight
obtained by fraud, and obviously the government have to prove that, that there is a showing that needs to be made. but, you can get pretrial procedure orders. we did that in the special counsel investigation. obviously, that all requires proof, it requires a court to do that. but if this is where they are going, you could do that, and that doesn't have to be a charge against donald trump. it can be against the pack itself, it can be against lower level people, and still have both civil and criminal forfeiture. >> betsy, one of the reason we think that the grand jury is hearing evidence related possible campaign fraud, is because bernie kerik, who we mentioned in the league, and according to your reporting, was meeting with prosecutors on monday. can you tell us more about why bernie kerik may be the sort of kevin bacon of all of this? a person that connects the various spokes on the wheel? >> yeah, he's a bit of a forrest gump type character. he and rudy giuliani go way way back, to their days running a
closed door testimony of the grand jury in washington d.c.? >> no it won't have any impact on that grand jury investigation alex, i think bonkers is a pretty good word to use to describe this argument. and andrew and i, andrew, we may have even been in the situation at one point. it's not unusual to have different u.s. attorneys offices commencing investigation, because both of them are seeing some form of crime. at the same time, both offices baskin till they bump into each other, and then they will resolve the issue of which district will move forward with what charges. nothing improper about having those grand jury is operating at the same time. but, beyond this idiosyncrasy, that andrew has pointed out in the argument that the judge raises, it's not just that she raises it, it's the context that she doesn't have. because the government has asked for a garcia hearing. that's a hearing into a conflict of interest between
on her own and it showed a fundamental misunderstanding of basic 101 criminal law as to how grand jury's work. as to how they can continue investing ongoing crime of either an existing defendant or other defendants, and other crimes that may be committed. so, this is a classic case. it is also the case that you can bring a grand jury investigation in any district where the crime may have occurred. remember, when you start investigation, you don't even know that the crime has occurred or who did it, or where has occurred. so you're allowed to go to many different districts, where it could be the case, as long as you have a good faith basis. so this is such a fundamental understanding. and what i was thinking about is, where in god's green earth is she getting this idea. because it is so off the charts from, everything in the record. why is she doing this.