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to harden those targets more than we have. maybe build walls or built, you know, non transparent fencing around those to make it more difficult. but we are aware this is a problem in this can cause enormous issues. because you can't always replace transformer overnight. it takes time. i mean, to build those things or even repair them. so this could be a really, a big problem for this country going forward. these are gonna be targets. there are many of these power subsets through the country that are vulnerable. >> juliet, there has been a spate of these attacks. so are these, i mean, do you think that these are coordinated? they don't feel like i stated instance. are these copycat incidents. or is there something more nefarious going on? >> so honestly, alison, we don't know yet. it is surprising, i think, that the north carolina case has not been solved yet. we don't know if they have suspects, that they think they have identified. a lot of these facilities, as charlie was saying.

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i bought a few books a few years ago. i go to stores. i walk into stores, i know what i'm gonna get before i walk in and i go by it. and so, look, these refined fees, to me they make sense. i understand why retailers are doing it. and frankly if this discourages my wife from shopping online, i am all for it. >> i resemble some of those remarks, charlie. you are blaming your way for. but that is hilarious. so juliet, here are the list of major chains that are changing their policies that everyone should know about. anthropology, zahra, age and i am, abercrombie & fitch, j.crew. basically they are now gonna charge something like $7.50 for when you return their stuff. because as charlie points out, don't all of us, sometimes, order multiple things in different sizes because we don't feel like going to the store and drying it on? so we try it on at home and then we return it and see a charge? >> yeah, jobbing is miserable. and doing it online has made it

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and juliet is saying that online there are all of these threats. are you surprised they don't have any suspects? are there cameras around some of these things? >> well back in 2013 at the san jose substation, i don't think they have ever made any arrests. they may have cameras, but many of these substations are in some rural areas. as juliet said, they are rather small. so you could dining out from a pretty far distance taking shots of these things. and even if there were cameras, there might not be, if you have a long powerful rifle. you can shoot from a distance and you are a good shot, you know, you can cause problems. this is not so easy. i think the better answer to this is rather than trying to figure out who did it, to start fortifying these things. again, these are not big facilities. you can build fences that are not transparent. you can also perhaps build walls around them. make it hard for people to take shots at them. you know what the problem is? let's deal with it. let's make more strong -- >> -- why is it so hard to find

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resign. but the pressure on him will be very very strong. i dealt with these cases when i was chair of the ethics committee. we are distractions and embarrassments. we wanted them to go away. i will tell you, they don't -- one thing congress doesn't like to do is that presidents. expect behavior of candidates like this one who obviously fabricated his resume. you really don't want to have a set of president about how to deal with folks like this. it is best just to get him to resign and get him out of the house. that way you don't deal with it. >> juliet, he can't be trusted to do anything. it would be hard to believe anything he says. if you are willing to lie about your grandparents having been in the holocaust, what aren't you willing to lie about? >> yeah. these aren't just any lies about whether he embellishes that he worked at goldman sachs. i, mean some of the significant lies are ones that sort of

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fees, to me they make sense. i understand why retailers are doing it. and frankly if this discourages my wife from shopping online, i am all for it. >> i resemble some of those remarks, charlie. you are blaming your way for. but that is hilarious. so juliet, here are the list of major chains that are changing their policies that everyone should know about. anthropology, zahra, age and i am, abercrombie & fitch, j. crew. basically they are now gonna charge something like $7. 50 for when you return their stuff. because as charlie points out, don't all of us, sometimes, order multiple things in different sizes because we don't feel like going to the store and drying it on? so we try it on at home and then we return it and see a charge? >> yeah, jobbing is miserable. and doing it online has made it more variable. i mean, for working parents and working mothers it is ideal. because you don't have to waste

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>> we are aware of the things and we are gonna see if any of the stuff is related to that. >> the fbi issued a bulletin last month private -- three or four substations is being done to make a statement. >> we don't know what the motive sorry or anything at this time, but again, just a really terrible way to welcome anyone to christmas morning. >> amanda clark is one customer who had a root away cunning. >> we woke up at 5:30 and the power was out. >> she said she had holiday party plans for 12 people at her home. but with no power she had to cancel. >> scary in our small little community that something like that would happen. >> josh campbell, cnn, los angeles. >> josh, thank you very much. joining me now is -- cnn national security analyst and former department of homeland security official. also, former congressman charlie dent who served on the house of homeland security committee. thanks to you for being, there juliet, that really got my attention what you just, said what do you mean start a race war? why would they be attacking power substations? >> so there is a theory in the

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will elevate this seat to the top target for 2024. so this guy's gonna have really problems walking in the door. now, they are not gonna get this guy to resign until after he votes for speaker, i suspect. but like i, said he may not resign. but the pressure on him will be very very strong. i dealt with these cases when i was chair of the ethics committee. we are distractions and embarrassments. we wanted them to go away. i will tell you, they don't -- one thing congress doesn't like to do is that presidents. expect behavior of candidates like this one who obviously fabricated his resume. you really don't want to have a set of president about how to deal with folks like this. it is best just to get him to resign and get him out of the house. that way you don't deal with it. >> juliet, he can't be trusted to do anything. it would be hard to believe anything he says. if you are willing to lie about your grandparents having been in the holocaust, what aren't you willing to lie about? >> yeah. these aren't just any lies about whether he embellishes

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thanks to you for being, there juliet, that really got my attention what you just, said what do you mean start a race war? why would they be attacking power substations? >> so there is a theory in the right wing, sort, of social media atmosphere, the environment that they live in. it is beginning to focus, or in the last year or so to focus on critical infrastructure. but it is not simply we want to be destruct did we want to show that we can pull things off. we are just gonna be chaos for chaos sake. part of the literature supports these kinds of attacks because there is a belief that in the darkness, right, human nature is, as they believe it to be, and there will be race wars. this is what they believe. so that the darkness, you know, in terms of going after energy facilities. that that will then begin the civil war that they have been demanding or clamoring for four years now. so we don't know specifically

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it takes time. i mean, to build those things or even repair them. so this could be a really, a big problem for this country going forward. these are gonna be targets. there are many of these power subsets through the country that are vulnerable. >> juliet, there has been a spate of these attacks. so are these, i mean, do you think that these are coordinated? they don't feel like i stated instance. are these copycat incidents. or is there something more nefarious going on? >> so honestly, alison, we don't know yet. it is surprising, i think, that the north carolina case has not been solved yet. we don't know if they have suspects, that they think they have identified. a lot of these facilities, as charlie was saying. are not fortified. they're exposed. they are next to highways. and they are small. these are communities that are impacted. of course, the facilities themselves, it is not like the

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hoover dam or the nuclear facilities, these are small pieces of infrastructure. but because of what we call the threat environment, as you go into these investigations, investigators will not be aligned to the idea that there is a sort of right-wing or extremism element that is pushing its followers to go after critical infrastructure. and so you want to see what the ties are, whether they focus on north carolina or washington or wherever else. that would be your theory at this stage. because it hasn't been that common until the chatter picked up. >> but charlie, i mean, given that you knew or were concerned about this in 2005. and juliet is saying that online there are all of these threats. are you surprised they don't have any suspects? are there cameras around some of these things? >> well back in 2013 at the san jose substation, i don't think they have ever made any arrests. they may have cameras, but many of these substations are in some rural areas. as juliet said, they are rather small. so you could dining out from a pretty far distance taking shots of these things. and even if there were cameras,

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