and that's bbc news at ten. newsnight is just getting under way on bbc two with kirsty wark. 0n bbc one, it's time tojoin our colleagues for the news where you are. goodnight. tomorrow the covid inquiry will hear from a man who was saved by the nhs. how will borisjohnson respond under oath to questions about the uk's late lockdown and criticism from some of his closest aides about his leadership? how contrite should the former prime minister be about what his critics in government believe were mistakes made during the pandemic? tonight we're joined by his close ally and former director of communications guto hari, dr kit yates, a member of independent sage, and anne longfield, who was children's commissoner at the height of the pandemic. also tonight... signed on the dotted line. a new treaty which the home secretary says addresses the concerns of the uk supreme court which ruled the government's rwanda plan unlawful last month. we'll hear from a spokesperson for the rwandan goverment, the prime minister's trade envoy for rwanda, lord popat, and leading immigration lawyer sarah gogan. and aaron dessner, who rose to fame with his band the national, talks about his collaborative life with the global superstar taylor swift ahead of the grammys. it was the first time that we wrote together, and from there, it was just like wildfire, almost every day we were writing together for months and months. we made it injust a six—month span of time. good evening. borisjohnson�*s responses at the covid inquiry over the next two days will be critical to his legacy. the former prime minister will be cross—examined about the government's response to the pandemic and his own hand in decision—making. his appearance follows that of michael gove, the minister running the cabinet office throughout the covid years, who apologised for mistakes made by the government, saying it was too slow to lock down in early 2020, and then again that autumn. but it is expected that borisjohnson will point the finger of blame at the chief medical 0fficer sir chris whitty, though it has been reported that he might be preparing to confess to some government complacency. however he goes in front of the inquiry with a besmirched personal record of breaking lockdown rules, and being found to have repeatedly lied to parliament about having done so. tonight we examine whatjeopardy borisjohnson will face tomorrow. here's sima. a reminder of what those early days of the pandemic were like. in italy in march 2020, some of the morgues were full to the brim as the virus rapidly spread in parts of the country. while here around the same time, cheltenham festival took place with tens of thousands of people in attendance every day. several days later came the first full lockdown in england. the former prime minister has studied thousands of pages of evidence before he faces his grilling in front of the public glare. one of the key questions he s likely to be asked is, did he act soon enough? so far we ve heard the former deputy cabinet minister helen macnamara say that downing street officials were overconfident as the pandemic hit and she said they were were sitting there and saying it was great, and sort of laughing at the italians". former chief advisor dominic cummings said in a whatsapp message in early march... the pm doesn t think its a big deal. he doesn t think anything can be done and his focus is elsewhere. he thinks it will be like swine flu." chief medical officer chris whitty told the inquiry the uk was a bit too late in imposing the first lockdown. and the former health secretary matt hancock said that with hindsight the first lockdown should have been implemented three weeks earlier. there were nearly 4,000 deaths involving the coronavirus in march 2020 according to the 0ns. those who ve spoken to the inquiry have sometimes conveyed a picture of chaos and dysfunction with the then prime minister struggling to get his head round the science. sir patrick vallance, the government's then chief scientific advisor, wrote in his private diary... late afternoon meeting with the pm on schools. my god, this is complicated. models will not provide the answer. pm is clearly bamboozled." there are also questions about why the former pm didn t attend the first five cobra meetings to do with the pandemic. his own bout of covid could come up with questions about whether he was fit enough to run the country at the time after being in intensive care. some newspapers have said borisjohnson will admit he made mistakes and say that he and his government were initially far too complacent. we'll hear whether that's the case. but for the families of those who lost loved ones during the pandemic, his answers will be properly digested and judged as to whether he, the man in charge at the time, could have done more to prevent their deaths. joining me now to discuss from leeds is anne longfield, the children's commissioner at the height of the pandemic who is now chair of the young lives commission. kit yates, a scientist who was a member of independent sage, a group that offered advice to the government during the pandemic. and guto harri, who was borisjohnson�*s director of communications in 2022. let's begin with key questions for borisjohnson. anne longfield, what would you be asking if you were asking the questions tomorrow? i think the first one would be, did he understand the harm that children were experiencing? why did he not put as much energy and planning into reopening schools as he did to pubs and restaurants? and why could he not see that children were suffering from really plummeting mental health? why could he not intervene at that point? why didn't he prioritise them, and ultimately why did he say no to the man he had asked to come up with a plan, that had costed it, to help those children recover, why did he turn him away when he saw how much it would cost?— would cost? let's “ust stick with this would cost? let's 'ust stick with this business _ would cost? let's 'ust stick with this business of— would cost? let'sjust stick with this business of lockdown - would cost? let'sjust stick with this business of lockdown for i this business of lockdown for schools reopening, you personally, you were the children's commissioner and you personally called repeatedly for schools to reopen, but you were ignored, what happened and why do you think you were ignored? weill. ignored, what happened and why do you think you were ignored? well, if ou you think you were ignored? well, if you remember. _ you think you were ignored? well, if you remember, the _ you think you were ignored? well, if you remember, the first _ you think you were ignored? well, if you remember, the first lockdown i you remember, the first lockdown happened very quick and that was, you know, probably necessary, but i think most parents who were suddenly homeschooling at that point thought it would be a matter of weeks, it got to may and june and the decision was made that there was some space to be able to increase social interaction, but the surprise was that at that point, shops, theme parks, zoos and pubs and restaurants were opened, where schools stayed shut. therejust were opened, where schools stayed shut. there just didn't seem to be any understanding of the experiences of children, nor indeed any real concern over what they may be suffering. concern over what they may be sufferinu. ., concern over what they may be sufferinu. . , ., ., . suffering. that question of concern i want to pick _ suffering. that question of concern i want to pick up — suffering. that question of concern i want to pick up on _ suffering. that question of concern i want to pick up on in _ suffering. that question of concern i want to pick up on in a _ suffering. that question of concern i want to pick up on in a moment, | i want to pick up on in a moment, but kit yates, what would you be trying to find out from boris johnson if you were there tomorrow? i would have a number of questions for him. _ i would have a number of questions for him. i_ i would have a number of questions for him, i would probably ask him, did he _ for him, i would probably ask him, did he really— for him, i would probably ask him, did he really think that covid was nalure's— did he really think that covid was nature's way of dealing with old people. — nature's way of dealing with old people, as we have heard in the inquiry? — people, as we have heard in the inquiry? i— people, as we have heard in the inquiry? i would ask him did he really— inquiry? i would ask him did he really say— inquiry? i would ask him did he really say let the bodies pile high in their— really say let the bodies pile high in their thousands? and ask him why he missed _ in their thousands? and ask him why he missed those early covert meetings, why did he follow the advice _ meetings, why did he follow the advice over some fringe scientists over his _ advice over some fringe scientists over his sage scientists in the auiumh— over his sage scientists in the autumn of— over his sage scientists in the autumn of 2020 when sage were suggesting a circuit breaker, asking why he _ suggesting a circuit breaker, asking why he didn't take the detail to helu _ why he didn't take the detail to helu he— why he didn't take the detail to hel. , , ., , ., , help. he missed five cobra meetings, now, the science _ help. he missed five cobra meetings, now, the science is _ help. he missed five cobra meetings, now, the science is difficult, - now, the science is difficult, sometimes it is contested, what difference would it have made, do you think, if he had been at those five cobra meetings? i you think, if he had been at those five cobra meetings?— you think, if he had been at those five cobra meetings? i think it 'ust shows a fundamental i shows a fundamental unseriousness regarding _ shows a fundamental unseriousness regarding him as a prime minister. but i _ regarding him as a prime minister. but i thihk— regarding him as a prime minister. but i think it — regarding him as a prime minister. but i think it would have been great if he had _ but i think it would have been great if he had engaged with the science, but as_ if he had engaged with the science, but as lee — if he had engaged with the science, but as lee cain put it, this was the wrong _ but as lee cain put it, this was the wrong crisis — but as lee cain put it, this was the wrong crisis for his skill set. there — wrong crisis for his skill set. there are _ wrong crisis for his skill set. there are numerous examples of him failing _ there are numerous examples of him failing to _ there are numerous examples of him failing to engage with the science, is taking _ failing to engage with the science, is taking a — failing to engage with the science, is taking a percentage of 4%, for example. — is taking a percentage of 4%, for example, for 0.04%, so, 100 times smaller, _ example, for 0.04%, so, 100 times smaller, and — example, for 0.04%, so, 100 times smaller, and when patrick vallance patiently explains this mistake to him, _ patiently explains this mistake to him. he — patiently explains this mistake to him, he says, so what is a 0.04, if it is— him, he says, so what is a 0.04, if it is hot— him, he says, so what is a 0.04, if it is hota_ him, he says, so what is a 0.04, if it is not a percentage? he has illustrated how poorly he understood the science. �* , illustrated how poorly he understood the science. �* . . . illustrated how poorly he understood the science. �* , , , ., illustrated how poorly he understood the science. �*, , , ., , ., the science. let's put this to guto harri, the science. let's put this to guto harri. what _ the science. let's put this to guto harri, what we _ the science. let's put this to guto harri, what we do _ the science. let's put this to guto harri, what we do know _ the science. let's put this to guto harri, what we do know is - the science. let's put this to guto harri, what we do know is that. the science. let's put this to guto i harri, what we do know is that boris johnson's legacy is very important to him, if you were still his director of communications how would you be advising him especially in the light of these conversations, these are the experts? {iii the light of these conversations, these are the experts?— the light of these conversations, these are the experts? of the reason asked for this, i _ these are the experts? of the reason asked for this, i inquiry _ these are the experts? of the reason asked for this, i inquiry to _ these are the experts? of the reason asked for this, i inquiry to be - these are the experts? of the reason asked for this, i inquiry to be set - asked for this, i inquiry to be set up, he commissioned it, is because he wants somebody to look overall the evidence, with the benefit of hindsight, with full 360 degrees vision, to see, anne longfield makes a fantastic case for not looking down as we did, not something that has been heard a lot in the narrative in general, but there are consequences to shutting things down, and that has not been explored. down, and that has not been exolored-_ down, and that has not been exlored. , ., ., explored. exactly to that point, it was almost _ explored. exactly to that point, it was almost like _ explored. exactly to that point, it was almost like sometimes - explored. exactly to that point, it was almost like sometimes the i was almost like sometimes the politicians thought they knew better than the people that were dealing with, and now of course anne longfield is the head of the young lives commission, she knows what happened to children afterwards. find happened to children afterwards. and i know myself, and it is wonderful to hear— i know myself, and it is wonderful to hear that case made, and the problem — to hear that case made, and the problem was, and this is why boris's evidence _ problem was, and this is why boris's evidence will be crucial, is because only one _ evidence will be crucial, is because only one man had the totaljigsaw, if you _ only one man had the totaljigsaw, if you like. — only one man had the totaljigsaw, if you like, there were people whose role it _ if you like, there were people whose role it was _ if you like, there were people whose role it was to look after lives, people — role it was to look after lives, people whose preoccupation was livelihoods, people whose preoccupation was children and mentai— preoccupation was children and mental health, only one man had the balance _ mental health, only one man had the balance of— mental health, only one man had the balance of all of those together, and he _ balance of all of those together, and he is — balance of all of those together, and he is genuinely interested in trying _ and he is genuinely interested in trying to— and he is genuinely interested in trying to help the inquiry conclude how that — trying to help the inquiry conclude how that could be done better. do how that could be done better. you accept how that could be done better. dun you accept that there is a public hero who suffered greatly during the pandemic, who are used to hearing borisjohnson sounding flippant, and they've been through so much, and what the town needs to be tomorrow, i mean, after all, what the town needs to be tomorrow, i mean, afterall, he is what the town needs to be tomorrow, i mean, after all, he is a what the town needs to be tomorrow, i mean, afterall, he is a man what the town needs to be tomorrow, i mean, after all, he is a man saved by nhs doctors and nurses on 24—hour care. by nhs doctors and nurses on 24-hour care. �* . , by nhs doctors and nurses on 24-hour care. . , , ., care. and he is extremely grateful to that, ithink— care. and he is extremely grateful to that, i think everyone - care. and he is extremely grateful to that, i think everyone has - care. and he is extremely grateful| to that, i think everyone has heard him express— to that, i think everyone has heard him express that. i went round on the nrirror— him express that. i went round on the mirror with him when he was apologising for things that he hadn't — apologising for things that he hadn't done to staff at on the whereabouts of his julia... hadn't done to staff at on the whereabouts of his julia. .. bodies iled u- whereabouts of his julia. .. bodies piled up on _ whereabouts of his julia. .. bodies piled up on the — whereabouts of his julia. .. bodies piled up on the street, _ whereabouts of his julia. .. bodies piled up on the street, does - whereabouts of his julia. .. bodies piled up on the street, does thatl piled up on the street, does that matter into he hasn't talked about that in public, has he? these things have emerged from private messages and heated exchanges over massive judgment because that had to be made where he as prime minister was rightly and crucially challenging as aggressively as possible the different cases made to him. anne longfield, now, as i said, you are on the young lives commission, i wonder what young people are saying to you now about what they went through? to you now about what they went throu~h? ~ �* . to you now about what they went throu~h? ~ �*, ., through? well, it's something that will stick with — through? well, it's something that will stick with children _ through? well, it's something that will stick with children i _ through? well, it's something that will stick with children i think - through? well, it's something that will stick with children i think for i will stick with children i think for the rest of their lives, and it was a disaster for many children, especially disadvantaged children. we're seeing young children coming into school now that are way off where they should be in terms of their development, but i think generally, children are saying, look, we know we missed out on huge amounts of education, we've never caught up, and we don't see that we have the future, often, that we might have had before. the other part being, you know, no—one has stepped to help us. let part being, you know, no-one has stepped to help us.— part being, you know, no-one has stepped to help us. let me 'ust ask ou, kit stepped to help us. let me 'ust ask you. «it yates. * stepped to help us. let me 'ust ask you, kit yates, the t stepped to help us. let me 'ust ask you, kit yates, the biggest _ stepped to help us. let me just ask you, kit yates, the biggest ever- stepped to help us. let me just ask| you, kit yates, the biggest ever you think made by the government was? there's too many to list. for example. _ there's too many to list. for example, not looking down in march 2020. _ example, not looking down in march 2020. nray— example, not looking down in march 2020, may be forgivable because it was a _ 2020, may be forgivable because it was a new— 2020, may be forgivable because it was a new pandemic, we didn't know what was _ was a new pandemic, we didn't know what was going on, but in september 2020 when sage was suggesting we should _ 2020 when sage was suggesting we should lock down, they were still consulting the scientist, taking advice — consulting the scientist, taking advice that he wanted to hear, not the advice — advice that he wanted to hear, not the advice of scientific consensus. isn't the advice of scientific consensus. isn't that — the advice of scientific consensus. isn't that the fact that what you've got here is somebody who is just saying quite straightforwardly, you know, they locked down too late in march, and it was incredibly important to get it right in the autumn, and still it didn't get done? iiii autumn, and still it didn't get done? ., , . . autumn, and still it didn't get done? ., , ., ., ,. . done? if only following the science was that simple. _ done? if only following the science was t