singh at leads the conservatives into the next election.— singh at leads the conservatives into the next election. do you, does our -a into the next election. do you, does your party have _ into the next election. do you, does your party have a — into the next election. do you, does your party have a death _ into the next election. do you, does your party have a death wish? - into the next election. do you, does your party have a death wish? not l into the next election. do you, does| your party have a death wish? not at all. we your party have a death wish? not at all- we are — your party have a death wish? not at all. we are fighting _ your party have a death wish? not at all. we are fighting to _ your party have a death wish? not at all. we are fighting to stop _ your party have a death wish? not at all. we are fighting to stop the - all. we are fighting to stop the boats— all. we are fighting to stop the boats can _ all. we are fighting to stop the boats can stabilise the economy and deliver_ boats can stabilise the economy and deliver for— boats can stabilise the economy and deliver for the british people. the prime _ deliver for the british people. the prime minister talks about death. that is_ prime minister talks about death. that is why i asked you. we prime minister talks about death. that is why i asked you.— prime minister talks about death. that is why i asked you. we do not have a death _ that is why i asked you. we do not have a death wish, _ that is why i asked you. we do not have a death wish, that _ that is why i asked you. we do not have a death wish, that is - that is why i asked you. we do not have a death wish, that is why - that is why i asked you. we do not have a death wish, that is why we | have a death wish, that is why we need to stop the boats. the facts do not live. we need to deliver on a key promise. that is how we will win the next general election. the prime minister made the promise to stop the boats at the beginning of the year. we need to deliver on that pledge. the time for talk, the time force laden and promises is over. we need to show delivery and that is what this debate is about right now. lets turn to the problem with delivery. why do you say a policy that goes much further than any government has gone before, to exclude the courts, domestic and international from frustrating the policy of sending migrants abroad, why do you say that is not enough? there are elements that should be welcomed in this new bill the prime minister has presented. taken as a whole, and looking at the reality of the challenges that are involved in detaining people, removing people and getting them to rwanda, it is a very litigious field and there are lots of legal frameworks that apply, the reality and sorry truth is it will not work and it will not stop the boats, that is my opinion having read it in the last 12, 2a hours. the former supreme courtjustice the former supreme court justice criticised the former supreme courtjustice criticised the government previously on the today programme. he said yesterday, i think she is wrong. the court will be prevented from getting what they call interim relief, exceptin what they call interim relief, except in a very narrow range of cases. what he is saying is under these changes people will be able to be sent to rwanda and the courts will not be able to stop their flights. why do you think you are right and he is wrong? iaruiith flights. why do you think you are right and he is wrong? with respect, i disarree. right and he is wrong? with respect, i disagree- if— right and he is wrong? with respect, i disagree. if you _ right and he is wrong? with respect, i disagree. if you look _ right and he is wrong? with respect, i disagree. if you look at _ right and he is wrong? with respect, i disagree. if you look at the - i disagree. if you look at the wording of the bill, there are clear sections allowing a whole raft of individual claims to be made by people we may seek to move to rwanda. they will be able to challenge the decisions made by the secretary of state. those challenges could take months and potentially sometimes years. they will not stop our removal of people to rwanda. he is a former supreme courtjustice. you would think he would understand the law. ~ , ,., , ., you would think he would understand the law. , , ., , the law. absolutely. i have been workin: the law. absolutely. i have been working on _ the law. absolutely. i have been working on this _ the law. absolutely. i have been working on this matter- the law. absolutely. i have been working on this matter to - the law. absolutely. i have been| working on this matter to myself the law. absolutely. i have been - working on this matter to myself for several years. section four of the bill, there are broad clauses which do allow individual claims to be made. that is the reality. we can't tweak at this problem. we can't 2/2 measures. we have to totally exclude international law, refugee convention, other broader avenues of legal challenge. the reality is we have seen regrettably injune 2022, people will bring claims and bring challenges through the courts and those challenges will operate to block flights to rwanda. that is how this bill and sections of this bill will operate in reality. interesting ou use will operate in reality. interesting you use the _ will operate in reality. interesting you use the word _ will operate in reality. interesting you use the word reality. - will operate in reality. interesting you use the word reality. a - will operate in reality. interesting i you use the word reality. a downing street spokesman has said you are denying reality. rwandan government ministers had said they were not be party to an agreement that is not in line with international law. what you are recommending, would it be whipped up by the rwandan government?— whipped up by the rwandan rovernment? ., ., ., government? now. on the one hand, the bill the prime _ government? now. on the one hand, the bill the prime minister _ government? now. on the one hand, the bill the prime minister himself. the bill the prime minister himself has put forward makes clear that they are applying elements of international law. the secretary of state cannot confirm the bill applies with international law. on that basis they would be a problem on... given the state made by downing street. secondly, i would also say measures i am proposing do not breach international law. if i can just finish the point it is quite important. the measures i propose do not breach international law. there is a perfectly legitimate basis in international law to justify the measures i put forward. are you saying they are lying when they say the rwandan government would not go ahead on the basis you are recommending? i am would not go ahead on the basis you are recommending?— would not go ahead on the basis you are recommending? i am saying there is an intellectual _ are recommending? i am saying there is an intellectual incoherence. - are recommending? i am saying there is an intellectual incoherence. are - is an intellectual incoherence. are the [inn is an intellectual incoherence. are they lying when they say they know what the rwandan government think and what the government would do? do you know differently? i am and what the government would do? do you know differently?— you know differently? i am saying that is an incoherence. _ you know differently? i am saying that is an incoherence. are - you know differently? i am saying that is an incoherence. are they l that is an incoherence. are they l in: ? that is an incoherence. are they l inc? i that is an incoherence. are they lying? i don't — that is an incoherence. are they lying? i don't know. _ that is an incoherence. are they lying? i don't know. i— that is an incoherence. are they lying? i don't know. i have - that is an incoherence. are they lying? i don't know. i have a - that is an incoherence. are they lying? i don't know. i have a lotj that is an incoherence. are they i lying? i don't know. i have a lot of respect for the rwandan government. i have been working with them myself. these are statements made by other people. the foreign minister says, it has always been important to both rwanda and the uk the rule of law partnership meets the highest standards of international law. that means your scheme denies reality. i ask you again, are you saying the prime minister is misrepresenting what the rwandan government thinks? i disagree with the prime minister. the bill on the table itself makes clear the secretary of state cannot confirm it complies with international law. on that basis the statement from the rwandan government means it does not support the bill on the table. the proposals i have put forward do not breach international law. we i have put forward do not breach international law.— international law. we have both mentioned _ international law. we have both mentioned the _ international law. we have both mentioned the prime _ international law. we have both mentioned the prime minister. | international law. we have both - mentioned the prime minister. when you are sat by him you wrote an excoriating letter about him. you said he was either incapable of keeping his promises are never intended to? what is your conclusion now? is he incapable are never intending on doing it? the prime minister has _ intending on doing it? the prime minister has a _ intending on doing it? the prime minister has a difficult _ intending on doing it? the prime minister has a difficult job. - intending on doing it? the primej minister has a difficult job. there minister has a difficultjob. there are lots of conflicting factors and issues to weigh up on any decision. you said he was either incapable of keeping his promises or he never intended to. which is it?- intended to. which is it? when i took u- intended to. which is it? when i took up the _ intended to. which is it? when i took up the role _ intended to. which is it? when i took up the role of _ intended to. which is it? when i took up the role of home - took up the role of home secretary, i put forward to him a plan to stop the boats, a plan i believed based on my experience of trying to fix this problem with previous prime ministers for several years that would work. you gave me firm assurances, personal, and after extensive discussion that that plan was accepted and could deliver that plan. ultimately, he blocked that plan. ultimately, he blocked that lan. ~ ., , ., , ., plan. ultimately, he blocked that plan. where does it leave you now? i ve much plan. where does it leave you now? i very much hope _ plan. where does it leave you now? i very much hope that _ plan. where does it leave you now? i very much hope that the _ plan. where does it leave you now? i very much hope that the prime - very much hope that the prime minister changes course. i very much hope he takes on board the kind of observations that people are making about the content of this bill right now and takes them on board. there is still time to change this bill. it has just been introduced. it will go through parliament and to scrutiny. there is time to change course and i would encourage him to develop a receptive attitude. if he develop a receptive attitude. if he does not? ultimately, _ develop a receptive attitude. if he does not? ultimately, this - develop a receptive attitude. if he does not? ultimately, this bill - develop a receptive attitude. if he | does not? ultimately, this bill will fail. we does not? ultimately, this bill will fail- we have _ does not? ultimately, this bill will fail. we have put _ does not? ultimately, this bill will fail. we have put two _ does not? ultimately, this bill will fail. we have put two acts - does not? ultimately, this bill will fail. we have put two acts of- fail. we have put two acts of parliament through already. we have done huge amounts of work to stop this problem. we have not succeeded in stopping the boats. time is running out. we cannot afford to put forward yet another bill that is destined to fail. if it forward yet another bill that is destined to fail.— destined to fail. if it fails, he would have _ destined to fail. if it fails, he would have to _ destined to fail. if it fails, he would have to go, _ destined to fail. if it fails, he would have to go, wouldn't l destined to fail. if it fails, he i would have to go, wouldn't he? destined to fail. if it fails, he - would have to go, wouldn't he? i want the prime minister to succeed in delivering on his pledge to stop the boats. ., ., ., , .. the boats. you want him to succeed? us act, the boats. you want him to succeed? us act, you — the boats. you want him to succeed? us act, you did _ the boats. you want him to succeed? us act, you did not _ the boats. you want him to succeed? us act, you did not resign. _ the boats. you want him to succeed? us act, you did not resign. you - us act, you did not resign. you described him as uncertain, weak and lacking in the qualities needed. do you really expect people to believe you really expect people to believe you want rishi sunak to succeed rather than what everyone believes great you want to bring him down and take over hisjob? lode great you want to bring him down and take over his job?— take over his job? we are all conservatives. _ take over his job? we are all conservatives. i— take over his job? we are all conservatives. i want - take over his job? we are all conservatives. i want this . take over his job? we are all. conservatives. i want this prime minister to fulfil his promise to stop the boats. he said he would do whatever it takes. ililul’iilii stop the boats. he said he would do whatever it takes.— whatever it takes. will he lead you into the next _ whatever it takes. will he lead you into the next election? _ whatever it takes. will he lead you into the next election? it - whatever it takes. will he lead you into the next election? it is - whatever it takes. will he lead you into the next election? it is his - into the next election? it is his choice as _ into the next election? it is his choice as to — into the next election? it is his choice as to what _ into the next election? it is his choice as to what he _ into the next election? it is his choice as to what he does. - into the next election? it is his choice as to what he does. i i into the next election? it is his| choice as to what he does. i am urging him to take up the advice and feedback that colleagues, with well—intentioned, want us all to win so he can fulfil the promise made to the british people. you so he can fulfil the promise made to the british people.— the british people. you said that. will he lead _ the british people. you said that. will he lead the _ the british people. you said that. will he lead the conservatives - the british people. you said that. | will he lead the conservatives into the next general election? i will he lead the conservatives into the next general election?- will he lead the conservatives into the next general election? i hope he does. i the next general election? i hope he does- i want — the next general election? i hope he does. i want us _ the next general election? i hope he does. i want us to _ the next general election? i hope he does. i want us to continue - the next general election? i hope he does. i want us to continue with - the next general election? i hope he does. i want us to continue with a i does. i want us to continue with a party that succeeds on its pledges. that is conditional. he can only lead you into the next general election if he does what you want and demand. the election if he does what you want and demand-— and demand. the bill has been presented- _ and demand. the bill has been presented. there _ and demand. the bill has been presented. there will - and demand. the bill has been presented. there will be - and demand. the bill has been presented. there will be live i presented. there will be live discussion, scrutiny and debate about what it does and does not do. there is a team of lawyers in the star chamber, independent lawyers, he will be scrutinising it, providing important conclusions. we have to read those conclusions carefully. if have to read those conclusions carefull . ., , �* . ., carefully. if it doesn't change, should he _ carefully. if it doesn't change, should he remain _ carefully. if it doesn't change, should he remain leader- carefully. if it doesn't change, should he remain leader of. carefully. if it doesn't change, i should he remain leader of your party? ihla should he remain leader of your -a ? ., ., , should he remain leader of your .a ? ., ., , ., ~' should he remain leader of your party? no one is talking about chanauin party? no one is talking about changing leader. _ party? no one is talking about changing leader. that - party? no one is talking about changing leader. that is - party? no one is talking about - changing leader. that is nonsense. you know they _ changing leader. that is nonsense. you know they are _ changing leader. that is nonsense. you know they are and _ changing leader. that is nonsense. you know they are and i _ changing leader. that is nonsense. you know they are and i suggest i changing leader. that is nonsense. i you know they are and i suggest you you have had meetings to discuss it as well. i will ask again, if he does not do what you demand, will you plot against him as leader of the conservative party? i you plot against him as leader of the conservative party?- the conservative party? i want a prime minister _ the conservative party? i want a prime minister to _ the conservative party? i want a prime minister to succeed - the conservative party? i want a prime minister to succeed in - prime minister to succeed in stopping the boats. he said he would do whatever it takes. there is a way to succeed in fulfilling that promise. if he does as prime minister, he will be able to lead us into the next election, telling people we succeeded on his very important pledge and that is what i want. ~ , ., ., ., ., ., ., want. when you are on the radio and television great _ want. when you are on the radio and television great you _ want. when you are on the radio and television great you talk _ want. when you are on the radio and television great you talk about - television great you talk about substance like you tour quite reasonably. when i ask you questions about tough language make you laugh at me as if i am the one talking about the conservative death wish. you condemned the leader of your party as uncertain, weak and lacking in leadership. you said he had no intention of keeping his promises. you have attacked lawyers, judges, civil servants, the metropolitan police, people worried about deaths in gaza. you attacked the homeless and migrants as part of being an invasion. isn't the truth you are a headline grabber who does it by spreading poison glare even within your own party? the spreading poison glare even within your own party?— spreading poison glare even within your own party? the truth is when i started as home _ your own party? the truth is when i started as home secretary, - your own party? the truth is when i started as home secretary, i - your own party? the truth is when i | started as home secretary, i sought to be honest. honest for the british people. sometimes that is uncomfortable. i am people. sometimes that is uncomfortable. iam not people. sometimes that is uncomfortable. i am not going to shy away from telling people how it is and from plain speaking. if it upsets polite society, i am sorry about that. the point is we need to be honest and clear eyed about the situation right now. we cannot keep failing the british people. we have made promise after promise. we have put forward plan after plan, they have all failed. we have now ran out of time. this