forformer election for them? joining us today for former conservative cabinet minister, shadow business minister, liberal democrat and daily telegraph, columnist. this is politics live, election 202a. welcome to viewers on bbc two, bbc news and the iplayer. parliament has been dissolved which means politicians, are no longer mps but candidates. ordinary members of the public standing in their respectful constituents for their parties but they are welcome all the same. let's start for tax and spend and this headline on bbc news. labour rules out raising vat after was started by the chancellor, jeremy hunt writing today promising a conservative government you heard in the headlines, would not raise any headlines, would not raise any headline taxes. he claims that labour does have a plan to raise vat, this of course is a classic election strategy to try and expose hidden plans by your rivals during the campaign. but labour have quashed them and ruled out, as you also heard in the headlines, raising any of the headline taxes either. our liberal democrats have two, i should say. my opening question starting with you is why should people trust you on tax?- starting with you is why should people trust you on tax? well, the conservative _ people trust you on tax? well, the conservative party _ people trust you on tax? well, the conservative party has _ people trust you on tax? well, the conservative party has always - conservative party has always believed in lower taxes believed. stood for lower _ believed in lower taxes believed. stood for lower taxes. _ believed in lower taxes believed. stood for lower taxes. a - believed in lower taxes believed. - stood for lower taxes. a fundamental difference between the labour government and a conservative government and a conservative government has always been that labour governments want to spend more without saying where the money is coming from. they will find a way of putting up taxes one way or another. they are going to put vat on school fees, have green levies. evenif on school fees, have green levies. even if they rule out one or two ways, they will be looking around to put up taxes because that is what labour governments do. the word believe as you _ labour governments do. the word believe as you descend _ labour governments do. the word believe as you descend is - labour governments do. the word believe as you descend is doing i labour governments do. the word | believe as you descend is doing the heavy lifting because the truth and reality, so that our viewers know, is that taxes have gone up under conservative governments. as a result of freezing tax threshold since 2021 and continuing with that until 2028, four million more people will be pain taxi one before and 3 million more will pay the higher rate of income tax. i ask you again, why should people trust you on tax? we still believe on lower taxes and we have begun to deliver that, as you saw with the budget of cutting national insurance contributions. the conservative government believes in sound finance, getting the economy right. we had to spend a great deal of money to get this country through the covid pandemic and that did result in borrowing. of course we need to get that down as well. ~ , , ., course we need to get that down as well. . , , ., ., , course we need to get that down as well. _., ., , , course we need to get that down as well. ., , , well. why should voters trust you and the labour _ well. why should voters trust you and the labour party _ well. why should voters trust you and the labour party on - well. why should voters trust you and the labour party on the - well. why should voters trust you and the labour party on the issue well. why should voters trust you i and the labour party on the issue of tax and spend?— and the labour party on the issue of tax and spend? what you have to look at is the evidence. _ tax and spend? what you have to look at is the evidence. we _ tax and spend? what you have to look at is the evidence. we had _ tax and spend? what you have to look at is the evidence. we had the - at is the evidence. we had the highest — at is the evidence. we had the highest tax burden for decades under the conservatives. we have seen chronic_ the conservatives. we have seen chronic waste of public money, we have _ chronic waste of public money, we have seen— chronic waste of public money, we have seen fraudulent loans. why should we trust _ have seen fraudulent loans. why should we trust what _ have seen fraudulent loans. twig should we trust what labour have seen fraudulent loans. kwiy should we trust what labour says about not increasing taxes? we have set out very — about not increasing taxes? we have set out very clearly _ about not increasing taxes? we have set out very clearly fully _ about not increasing taxes? we have set out very clearly fully costed - set out very clearly fully costed plans _ set out very clearly fully costed plans against policies that we have announced. we have been absolutely clear that _ announced. we have been absolutely clear that every single policy we have _ clear that every single policy we have introduced is costed. unlike the conservatives they have made £71 billion _ the conservatives they have made £71 billion worth of unfunded commitments already which includes nationat— commitments already which includes national insurance, scrapping nationat— national insurance, scrapping national insurance, scrapping national insurance and a whole bunch of other— national insurance and a whole bunch of other policies. what we have to look at _ of other policies. what we have to look at is — of other policies. what we have to look at is their record, they crash the economy and why should the britisb— the economy and why should the british people trust... you the economy and why should the british people trust. . ._ the economy and why should the british people trust... you are not answerin: british people trust... you are not answering my _ british people trust... you are not answering my question. _ british people trust... you are not answering my question. my - british people trust... you are not i answering my question. my question is why should they trust your promises on tax? hang on a second. by promises on tax? hang on a second. by sticking to existing rules, the financial rules that you have said the costed manifesto when it comes out. the independent think tank, says that you're banking on growth is wishful thinking. many are so tight there are three clear choices. you ruled out one of them are not as tax rises. you are left either cuts on spending in unprotected departments or increasing debt which is already at record high levels. so why should people trust you on tax and spend. let's be clear about something. what we have had is 111 years of under investment. we know there are businesses waiting to invest but the political instability and the economic uncertainty and the chopping and changing policies has knocked confidence and investors are waiting to see what happens. i knocked confidence and investors are waiting to see what happens.- waiting to see what happens. i meet investors all — waiting to see what happens. i meet investors all the _ waiting to see what happens. i meet investors all the time _ waiting to see what happens. i meet investors all the time who _ waiting to see what happens. i meet investors all the time who want - waiting to see what happens. i meet investors all the time who want to i investors all the time who want to investors all the time who want to invest in our country but they want the stability and they need credibility and the management of our economy which they haven't had. that is how we get investment of growth. that is why it is vital that we get stable economic policy and we respect the independence of the institutions that are there to provide that credibility. let institutions that are there to provide that credibility. let me ask the same question _ provide that credibility. let me ask the same question of— provide that credibility. let me ask the same question of the - provide that credibility. let me ask the same question of the liberal. the same question of the liberal democrats. why should voters trust you on the issue of tax? the last time that the lib dems were in government was in coalition of the conservatives where you presided over years of austerity and public spending. over years of austerity and public sendina. ~ spending. when we were in government, _ spending. when we were in government, we _ spending. when we were in i government, we implemented spending. when we were in - government, we implemented what spending. when we were in _ government, we implemented what was on the _ government, we implemented what was on the front— government, we implemented what was on the front page of our manifesto which _ on the front page of our manifesto which was — on the front page of our manifesto which was to lift those on the lower incomes— which was to lift those on the lower incomes out of tax altogether and it was a _ incomes out of tax altogether and it was a liberal democrat policy to increase — was a liberal democrat policy to increase the threshold at which people — increase the threshold at which people started to pay tax. we fought hard for _ people started to pay tax. we fought hard for that and we implemented that and _ hard for that and we implemented that and since we came out of government you saw the tories which is why— government you saw the tories which is why we _ government you saw the tories which is why we have got people and families— is why we have got people and families up and down the country having _ families up and down the country having to — families up and down the country having to shoulder the highest tax burden— having to shoulder the highest tax burden since the war. going into this election the liberal democrat manifesto about how we can raise tax fairly not _ manifesto about how we can raise tax fairly not on _ manifesto about how we can raise tax fairly not on working families who are dealing with the cost of living crisis _ are dealing with the cost of living crisis but — are dealing with the cost of living crisis but reversing things like attacks— crisis but reversing things like attacks which would raise money. closing _ attacks which would raise money. closing the loopholes in the windfall tax. this morning i have been _ windfall tax. this morning i have been told — windfall tax. this morning i have been told that how we would treble the tax _ been told that how we would treble the tax on — been told that how we would treble the tax on additional services. you have set out _ the tax on additional services. you have set out your _ the tax on additional services. not have set out your stall on these all—important issues around the economy, tax—and—spend. how honest other political parties being with the public over this? i other political parties being with the public over this?— other political parties being with the public over this? i think voters will struggle _ the public over this? i think voters will struggle to — the public over this? i think voters will struggle to see _ the public over this? i think voters will struggle to see these - the public over this? i think voters | will struggle to see these promises on taxes _ will struggle to see these promises on taxes as— will struggle to see these promises on taxes as anything _ will struggle to see these promises on taxes as anything other - will struggle to see these promises on taxes as anything other than i on taxes as anything other than hollow — on taxes as anything other than hollow thev _ on taxes as anything other than hollow. they understand - on taxes as anything other than hollow. they understand that i on taxes as anything other than i hollow. they understand that the tax burden _ hollow. they understand that the tax burden is _ hollow. they understand that the tax burden is set— hollow. they understand that the tax burden is set to _ hollow. they understand that the tax burden is set to reach _ hollow. they understand that the tax burden is set to reach its _ hollow. they understand that the tax burden is set to reach its highest i burden is set to reach its highest level— burden is set to reach its highest level in_ burden is set to reach its highest level in seven _ burden is set to reach its highest level in seven decades, - burden is set to reach its highest level in seven decades, they i level in seven decades, they understand _ level in seven decades, they understand that _ level in seven decades, they understand that almost i level in seven decades, they i understand that almost record investment— understand that almost record investment is— understand that almost record investment is going _ understand that almost record investment is going into- understand that almost record| investment is going into public services — investment is going into public services and _ investment is going into public services and yet _ investment is going into public services and yet they- investment is going into public services and yet they are - investment is going into public- services and yet they are crumbling and they— services and yet they are crumbling and they understand _ services and yet they are crumbling and they understand that _ services and yet they are crumbling and they understand that that i services and yet they are crumbling and they understand that that is i and they understand that that is ballooned — and they understand that that is ballooned. and _ and they understand that that is ballooned. and then _ and they understand that that is ballooned. and then something | and they understand that that is - ballooned. and then something needs to go _ ballooned. and then something needs to go what _ ballooned. and then something needs to go what i — ballooned. and then something needs to go what i worry— ballooned. and then something needs to go. what i worry about _ ballooned. and then something needs to go. what i worry about is _ ballooned. and then something needs to go. what i worry about is that - ballooned. and then something needs to go. what i worry about is that we i to go. what i worry about is that we are not— to go. what i worry about is that we are not doing — to go. what i worry about is that we are not doing enough _ to go. what i worry about is that we are not doing enough on _ to go. what i worry about is that we are not doing enough on the - are not doing enough on the spending. _ are not doing enough on the spending, government- are not doing enough on the i spending, government spending are not doing enough on the - spending, government spending side that doesn't — spending, government spending side that doesn't seem _ spending, government spending side that doesn't seem to _ spending, government spending side that doesn't seem to be _ spending, government spending side that doesn't seem to be any- that doesn't seem to be any political— that doesn't seem to be any political appetite _ that doesn't seem to be any political appetite to - that doesn't seem to be any political appetite to try- that doesn't seem to be any political appetite to try and i that doesn't seem to be any. political appetite to try and rein that in. — political appetite to try and rein that in, despite _ political appetite to try and rein that in, despite the _ political appetite to try and rein that in, despite the fact - political appetite to try and rein that in, despite the fact that i political appetite to try and rein that in, despite the fact that iti that in, despite the fact that it has reached _ that in, despite the fact that it has reached above _ that in, despite the fact that it has reached above gdp. - that in, despite the fact that it has reached above gdp. we i that in, despite the fact that it. has reached above gdp. we are that in, despite the fact that it - has reached above gdp. we are coming to historic— has reached above gdp. we are coming to historic levels _ has reached above gdp. we are coming to historic levels of _ has reached above gdp. we are coming to historic levels of historic— to historic levels of historic spending~ _ to historic levels of historic spending~ now— to historic levels of historic spending. now we - to historic levels of historic spending. now we have i to historic levels of historic| spending. now we have got to historic levels of historic- spending. now we have got the main parties _ spending. now we have got the main parties making — spending. now we have got the main parties making all— spending. now we have got the main parties making all sorts _ spending. now we have got the main parties making all sorts of _ parties making all sorts of promises. _ parties making all sorts of promises, free _ parties making all sorts of promises, free childcare i parties making all sorts of. promises, free childcare for parties making all sorts of i promises, free childcare for all children— promises, free childcare for all children from _ promises, free childcare for all children from nine _ promises, free childcare for all children from nine months i promises, free childcare for all children from nine months andi promises, free childcare for all- children from nine months and above, the labour— children from nine months and above, the labour party— children from nine months and above, the labour party want _ children from nine months and above, the labour party want to _ the labour party want to renationalise _ the labour party want to renationalise rail- the labour party want to renationalise rail and i the labour party want to i renationalise rail and spend billions _ renationalise rail and spend billions of— renationalise rail and spend billions of pounds _ renationalise rail and spend billions of pounds on - renationalise rail and spendl billions of pounds on various renationalise rail and spend - billions of pounds on various green projects _ billions of pounds on various green projects i— billions of pounds on various green projects ijust— billions of pounds on various green projects. i just want _ billions of pounds on various green projects. i just want the _ billions of pounds on various green projects. ijust want the public- billions of pounds on various green projects. ijust want the public and| projects. ijust want the public and ithink— projects. ijust want the public and i think they— projects. ijust want the public and i think they understand _ projects. ijust want the public and i think they understand that - projects. ijust want the public and i think they understand that the i projects. ijust want the public and i think they understand that the is| i think they understand that the is are not— i think they understand that the is are not realistic— i think they understand that the is are not realistic promises. - i think they understand that the is are not realistic promises. it i i think they understand that the is are not realistic promises. it is i are not realistic promises. it is all well— are not realistic promises. it is all well sav— are not realistic promises. it is all well say they— are not realistic promises. it is all well say they are _ are not realistic promises. it is all well say they are not - are not realistic promises. it is all well say they are not going i are not realistic promises. it is i all well say they are not going to cut tax— all well say they are not going to cut tax and — all well say they are not going to cut tax and spending _ all well say they are not going to cut tax and spending and - all well say they are not going to cut tax and spending and they i all well say they are not going to l cut tax and spending and they are not going — cut tax and spending and they