national insurance though, i don't know that for certain. the prime minister has dismissed to those in his own party who think for example that he should promise to scrap inheritance tax and that will come on top of a series of national insurance cuts that have already been made, which he argues is helping the average worker and not helping the average worker and not helping pensioners. he argues it actually helps business because it's an incentive for them to take on more workers, for people to work harder as a result. that undoubtedly will be part of his pitch, and you can see he is unrepentant, he is defiant in the face of people criticising his calculations about labour tax increases. —— labour tax increases. let's be clear about any party, not forjust increases. let's be clear about any party, not for just two years increases. let's be clear about any party, not forjust two years or one or two decades, but i found an example from 1955 is actually calculated the impact of what they say their opponents will do and then put a number on it. this is routine stuff. and mr sunak made a mistake, it's by implying in the debate, the number that he keeps repeating came from the treasury. it didn't. some of the costings underlying it did come from the treasury but the big number didn't. he does think that is the best way of saying to people after a crisis, look, at least we, conservatives, are trying to kind of squeeze the pressure on it, trying to get your taxes down while labour won't. ., . ~' to get your taxes down while labour won't. ., ., ~ ., , .,~ , to get your taxes down while labour won't. ., ., ~ ., , ., ~ , won't. you talk about mistakes. most --eole i won't. you talk about mistakes. most peeple i spoke _ won't. you talk about mistakes. most peeple i spoke to _ won't. you talk about mistakes. most people i spoke to at _ won't. you talk about mistakes. most people i spoke to at the _ won't. you talk about mistakes. most people i spoke to at the weekend - people i spoke to at the weekend wanted to talk about what happened at d—day. you put that photo up right at the start of the interview, highlighted the fact that he left early, you described him as bunking d—day, didn't you come in that? what did you make of his response to that? ~ ., �* , did you make of his response to that? . ., �*,, ~ , did you make of his response to that? ~ , �*, ., did you make of his response to that? ~ , 2 ., ., that? what's striking is he's had to chance his that? what's striking is he's had to change his response, _ that? what's striking is he's had to change his response, so _ that? what's striking is he's had to change his response, so that - that? what's striking is he's had to change his response, so that his i change his response, so that his first response when the row broke out was yes, to say it was a mistake and yes to say it was, to give it an apology. but then today, this morning and then in my interview on panorama just now, he went further, didn't he, and said, effectively pleaded for forgiveness. didn't he, and said, effectively pleaded forforgiveness. people didn't he, and said, effectively pleaded for forgiveness. people find it within themselves to forgive me and that suggests that he knew, simply saying it was a mistake, simply saying it was a mistake, simply apologising wasn't good enough. i did think of pushing him on why he made the mistake of exactly what he was thinking when he thought of coming back, but he didn't think it would produce much. his problem is that not only is this a gift to his opponents, it's a gift in particular to the person who is competing with him for right wing votes, votes on the right of politics, nigel farage. he's only just emerged as a candidate or party leader and has ruthlessly exploited that d—day mistake for his own advantage. now nigel farage has done it in a pretty controversial way, he hinted by talking of a man who wasn't a patriot and didn't understand, his words, our culture. he hinted at the fact that because mr sunak is of indian origin that because he's a british asian, he somehow didn't get the importance of d—day to the country as a whole. mr faraj is no fool, he didn't actually say that, but he was hinting at it. what's striking to me as rishi sunak knows that, too, but he doesn't want to get in a public spat with nigel farage. why? that's where he thinks nigel farage wants to be, at the centre of the public debate, deliberately taking a row and getting in the headlines. rishi sunak would rather turn the other cheek and take the blow rather than giving nigel farage what he wants. one more thing to discuss, lots of policies that will matter to people aside from the question of personality of course, nick. he discussed the nhs there, you ask him about the record when it comes to waiting lists, also talked about immigration which of course is a big issue in this election. but also he was quite frank on the conservative party's record when it comes to housing. party's record when it comes to housina. ., , party's record when it comes to housina. .,, ., , housing. there was only time left in the interview. _ housing. there was only time left in the interview, really, _ housing. there was only time left in the interview, really, for— housing. there was only time left in the interview, really, for one - the interview, really, for one question on that. but i was struck by how simply he answered the question. i said by how simply he answered the question. isaid it by how simply he answered the question. i said it got more difficult under the conservatives to buy a house, own your own home, and people find themselves living with mum and dad into their 30s. maybe that's the lesson for me, he simply said yes before adding that he wanted to do something about it. once again, he thinks he has some answers to these problems. he will set out tomorrow how he is planning to stem duty for first—time buyers, to stem duty for first—time buyers, to make it easierfor people in the south of england where prices are higher to buy that house with out that tax. he'll talk about building more houses, but what he knows is people will point to the record, that over time, not as many houses have been billed as the conservatives hoped for and as a result the dream that tory�*s use to talk about, the dream of phone ownership has become a very distant dream indeed for many people. indeed. nick robinson, thank you very much for giving us your thoughts on that interview and of course you will be interviewing all the major seven parties to the course of the coming weeks, what is it, 24 course of the coming weeks, what is it, 2a days left he said? 2&1 course of the coming weeks, what is it, 24 days left he said?— it, 24 days left he said? 24 days, ou it, 24 days left he said? 24 days, you yeah- — it, 24 days left he said? 24 days, you yeah. unless _ it, 24 days left he said? 24 days, you yeah. unless you _ it, 24 days left he said? 24 days, you yeah. unless you are - it, 24 days left he said? 24 days, you yeah. unless you are waiting | it, 24 days left he said? 24 days, i you yeah. unless you are waiting for the labour leader, i can confirm or maybe even reveal we will be talking to the labour leader this coming friday, this friday.— friday, this friday. friday night date with nick _ friday, this friday. friday night date with nick robinson, - friday, this friday. friday night date with nick robinson, we'lll friday, this friday. friday night - date with nick robinson, we'll keep it in our diary. thank you so much, nick. well, let's dissect and digest that interview with our panel — and a reminder, the other six main party leaders here in the uk will also be interviewed and we'll air those through the course of the campaign. sir keir starmer�*s interview will be on friday. but first, let's hear some of the key moments from the interview. see, a lot of people looking at him and you, they think — these conservatives — that he's a kind of sunday roast with all the trimmings and you're a quinoa salad. well, i think the policies are what matter. the substance is what matters, nick. so let's. .. i know we're going to get into it, but you're asking me about personalities. and i... i'm asking you about nigel farage, and people have noticed you don't want to talk about him. so let's talk about policy. no, no, no, nick. it's not that i'm not willing. i'm willing to talk about everything here. but the simple issue here is a vote for anyone else, including nigel farage's party... and i would make the same point about anyone's party, right? it's ultimately a vote that makes it more likely that keir starmer is in power. your tory press releases here — a promise of national service, couple of billion there, a promise for a tax cut for pensioners, a promise of a tax cut for parents. more apprenticeships, more police officers, endless promises. every single one of those policies that you've just been through is fully funded and costed, as is explained in every single one of those press releases. as indeed, when we set out our manifesto tomorrow, people will get to see all the details behind it even further. and tomorrow you'll promise more tax cuts. we will have a manifesto tomorrow that builds on all the things that you've just gone through that we've already announced in this campaign that, yes, does continue to cut people's taxes, because i believe in a country where people's hard work is rewarded. joining me now is rosa prince, deputy uk editor at politico, journalist and author matthew syed and conor matchett, political editor of the scottish sun. and the conor, let's come to you first. on theissue conor, let's come to you first. on the issue of the d—day bunking as nick robinson described it, what did you make of rishi sunak�*s response there? he said, "i hope people find it in their hearts to forgive me.". i think what it shows is how much this has cut through with voters. when the incident happened last week, we all knew that it was a relatively major moment in this campaign and the conservative party knew very quickly that this was a major problem for the prime minister. the images as we can see now, speakfor minister. the images as we can see now, speak for themselves. minister. the images as we can see now, speakfor themselves. and he's the only one who isn't there. and i think the response last week was firmly kind of passing the buck on a pre—election agreement where it is today, he seems to have realised he needs to apologise and he needs to apologise sincerely and in a genuine way, for people to forgive him for it, that's what he is begging for, and that's what he's asking for people to do. do and that's what he's asking for peeple to de— and that's what he's asking for people to do. do you think that a mission new. _ people to do. do you think that a mission now, that _ people to do. do you think that a mission now, that plea _ people to do. do you think that a mission now, that plea for - mission now, that plea for forgiveness, is it enough to close the chapter on it, the conservative party is about to launch its manifesto, that certainly is what mr sunak wants to focus on now. he very much wants — sunak wants to focus on now. he very much wants to _ sunak wants to focus on now. he very much wants to move _ sunak wants to focus on now. he very much wants to move on. _ sunak wants to focus on now. he very much wants to move on. i _ sunak wants to focus on now. he very much wants to move on. i worried - sunak wants to focus on now. he very much wants to move on. i worried for| much wants to move on. i worried for him that_ much wants to move on. i worried for him that is— much wants to move on. i worried for him that is not— much wants to move on. i worried for him that is not going to do the trick — him that is not going to do the trick the _ him that is not going to do the trick. the problem with what happened with d—day was that it just showed _ happened with d—day was that it just showed a _ happened with d—day was that it just showed a lack of empathy and emotional connection to the electorate and therefore if your response — electorate and therefore if your response to that is to kind of repeat — response to that is to kind of repeat your prepared lines, so he has this— repeat your prepared lines, so he has this line that he said twice in nick's _ has this line that he said twice in nick's interview and he said it earlier— nick's interview and he said it earlier today on the campaign trail, i earlier today on the campaign trail, i hope _ earlier today on the campaign trail, i hope people find it in their hearts— i hope people find it in their hearts to _ i hope people find it in their hearts to forgive me, if you're just repeating — hearts to forgive me, if you're just repeating that line rather than sort of almost — repeating that line rather than sort of almost speaking from the heart, sort of— of almost speaking from the heart, sort of being quite direct and saying — sort of being quite direct and saying quite freshly how you feel, then it _ saying quite freshly how you feel, then it comes across as wooden. and ithink— then it comes across as wooden. and i think voters — then it comes across as wooden. and i think voters will sense that lack of connection sol i think voters will sense that lack of connection so i don't think anyone — of connection so i don't think anyone who watched that panorama programme will feel differently about— programme will feel differently about the d—day tobacco. programme will feel differently about the d-day tobacco. we've heard about the d-day tobacco. we've heard about some — about the d-day tobacco. we've heard about some of — about the d-day tobacco. we've heard about some of the _ about the d-day tobacco. we've heard about some of the responses - about the d-day tobacco. we've heard about some of the responses from - about some of the responses from rishi sunak when he was asked about the role of nigel farage in this election, and did some of the comments he's made about mr sunak and his culture. what is your assessment how he responded to that comment he didn't really want to go into it too much, did he? i comment he didn't really want to go into it too much, did he?— into it too much, did he? i think it's worth _ into it too much, did he? i think it's worth mentioning _ into it too much, did he? i think it's worth mentioning that - into it too much, did he? i think it's worth mentioning that the l into it too much, did he? i thinkl it's worth mentioning that the uk into it too much, did he? i think. it's worth mentioning that the uk is in some trouble _ it's worth mentioning that the uk is in some trouble at _ it's worth mentioning that the uk is in some trouble at the _ it's worth mentioning that the uk is in some trouble at the moment - it's worth mentioning that the uk is in some trouble at the moment as. it's worth mentioning that the uk is| in some trouble at the moment as a nation's _ in some trouble at the moment as a nation's economic— in some trouble at the moment as a nation's economic growth _ in some trouble at the moment as a nation's economic growth has - in some trouble at the moment as a nation's economic growth has beenl nation's economic growth has been low, productivity— nation's economic growth has been low, productivity is _ nation's economic growth has been low, productivity is stagnated - nation's economic growth has been low, productivity is stagnated and. low, productivity is stagnated and we are _ low, productivity is stagnated and we are drifting _ low, productivity is stagnated and we are drifting to _ low, productivity is stagnated and we are drifting to a _ low, productivity is stagnated and we are drifting to a very— low, productivity is stagnated and we are drifting to a very large - we are drifting to a very large extent — we are drifting to a very large extent the _ we are drifting to a very large extent. the 14 _ we are drifting to a very large extent. the 14 years - we are drifting to a very large extent. the 14 years of - we are drifting to a very large - extent. the 14 years of conservative government — extent. the 14 years of conservative government has _ extent. the 14 years of conservative government has been— extent. the 14 years of conservative government has been by— extent. the 14 years of conservative government has been by and - extent. the 14 years of conservative government has been by and large, | government has been by and large, with a _ government has been by and large, with a couple — government has been by and large, with a couple of— government has been by and large, with a couple of successes - government has been by and large, with a couple of successes but - government has been by and large, with a couple of successes but by l with a couple of successes but by and large — with a couple of successes but by and large a — with a couple of successes but by and large a failure. _ with a couple of successes but by and large a failure. if— with a couple of successes but by and large a failure. if sunak- with a couple of successes but by and large a failure. if sunak had. and large a failure. if sunak had been— and large a failure. if sunak had been there _ and large a failure. if sunak had been there at _ and large a failure. if sunak had been there at and _ and large a failure. if sunak had been there at and stayed - and large a failure. if sunak had been there at and stayed the i and large a failure. if sunak had i been there at and stayed the whole time, _ been there at and stayed the whole time, that— been there at and stayed the whole time, that wouldn't _ been there at and stayed the whole time, that wouldn't change - been there at and stayed the whole time, that wouldn't change the i time, that wouldn't change the context— time, that wouldn't change the context in— time, that wouldn't change the context in which _ time, that wouldn't change the context in which the _ time, that wouldn't change the context in which the uk - time, that wouldn't change the context in which the uk finds l time, that wouldn't change the i context in which the uk finds itself bit. context in which the uk finds itself bit~ having — context in which the uk finds itself bit. having failed _ context in which the uk finds itself bit. having failed to _ context in which the uk finds itself bit. having failed to be _ context in which the uk finds itself bit. having failed to be there i- bit. having failed to be there i think— bit. having failed to be there i think it — bit. having failed to be there i think it was _ bit. having failed to be there i think it was interpreted - bit. having failed to be there ij think it was interpreted rightly bit. having failed to be there i. think it was interpreted rightly is a terrible — think it was interpreted rightly is a terrible political— think it was interpreted rightly is a terrible political misjudge i think it was interpreted rightly is a terrible political misjudge —— l a terrible political misjudge —— misjudgnrent, _ a terrible political misjudge —— misjudgment, when _ a terrible political misjudge —— misjudgment, when the - a terrible political misjudge —— - misjudgment, when the centre—right and far— misjudgment, when the centre—right and far right — misjudgment, when the centre—right and far right is — misjudgment, when the centre—right and far right is rising _ misjudgment, when the centre—right and far right is rising because - misjudgment, when the centre—right and far right is rising because they. and far right is rising because they are trading — and far right is rising because they are trading on— and far right is rising because they are trading on the _ and far right is rising becau