on why joe biden chose prosperity over vengeance. plus, david wallace-wells on how so many western countries got covid so wrong. and is there any way in the world to convince vaccine skeptic trump supporters they should get their shots? all in starts right now. good evening, from new york. i'm chris hayes. we've got big developments on two of the biggest mysteries surrounding the january 6th insurrection. what happened to capitol police officer brian sicknick? that led to his death. and who planted pipe bombs, next to the rnc and the dnc? there is still a ton that we do not know about that day. though, today, we learned a few more pieces but before we get into that, a little context. because over the last two months, there has been a concerted evident on the right to spin a counternarrative about this violent insurrection. you remember, you saw it happen, live, on tv. an attack, that sought, explicitly, for, really, the first time in american history, to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power. from one administration to the next. that was the goal. there have been people with big audiences spreading the idea, that these attackers were harmless. was kind of a joke or a lark. that, all the stuff you have been told about how dangerous and violent it was, was played up in the media. and telling you it's white supremacists, show me white supremacists. >> it was not an act of racism. it was not an insurrection. it wasn't an armed invasion by a brigade of dangerous, white supremacists. it wasn't. those are lies. >> well, you know, on the day of the insurrection, there was this guy walking through the capitol building with a giant, confederate flag. and, well, there was, also, this guy, with a t-shirt that said, camp auschwitz staff. most people at the capitol were not quite as explicit about their feelings but an awful lot of them invaded the seat of american democracy. again, violently. under this banner. chanting, america first. then, friday, the d.c. u.s. attorney released these photos of timothy hill cucanelli. an active sergeant in the army reserve who say they and i quote them here, recorded video of themselves screaming at police officers, climbing scaffolding, through doors that the been kicked open by rioters. and chanting stop the steal with other protestors. this gentleman, who according to interviews with his co-workers, was a well-known white supremacist. in fact, don't take my word for it. one navy petty officer stated, and i quote, talked constantly about jewish people and remembered defendant saying hitler should have finished the job. hitler should have finished the job. yeah, where are the white supremacists? what are you talking about? this is who, at least some of these people were. let's remember, exactly, what they did. because, as apologists for the violent mob know, full well, a cop is dead after that attack. well, two more died of suicide, in fact. the mob, actually, injured 140 police officers, despite claiming to support police. they gouged an officer's eye out. they beat an officer with a flagpole. they struck another with a fire extinguisher. they crushed officers in doors. they threatened to a shoot a cop with his own gun, while they beat him. today, two men were charged with assaulting multiple officers with what appeared to be some kind of bear repellent and that includes assaulting officer brian sicknick. according to the complaint, quote, officers sicknick, edwards, and chapman, suffered injuries as a result of being sprayed in the face with an unknown substance. all three officers were incapacitated and unable to perform their duties for at least 20 minutes or longer, while they recovered from the spray. officer edwards reported lasting injuries underneath her eyes including scabbing that remained on her face for weeks. oh, yeah, what violence? what are you talking about, violence, right? officers edwards and chapman also described the spray to their face as a substance as strong as if not stronger than any version of pepper spray they had been exposed to during their training as law enforcement officers. officer brian sicknick lost his life a day after that encounter. yet, despite all that, this idea that, well, really, were they that bad? they weren't violent. they weren't white supremacists. they were just patriots. that insidious, ridiculous, facially absurd notion, is kind of canon for a lot of people. not just people, you know, on tv. republican senator ron johnson came away from the attack with this remarkable takeaway. >> i'm, also, criticized because i have made the comment that, on january 6th, i never felt threatened. because i didn't. and mainly, because i knew that even though those thousands of people that were -- that were marching the capitol. >> yeah. >> were trying to pressure people like me to vote the way they wanted me to vote. i knew those were people that love this country. that truly respect law enforcement. would never do anything to break a law. and so, i wasn't concerned. now, had the tables been turned and, joe, this could get me in trouble. had the tables been turned and president trump won the election. and those were tens of thousands of black lives matter and antifa protestors. i might've been a little concerned. >> this will get me in trouble. he knew what he was saying. oh, yeah, why would -- you know, they would never break the law. except, they all broke the law. and i didn't feel bad or scared. i mean, these guys. you know, there goes the auschwitz t-shirt guy and confederate flag guy. and there's the guy with the hitler mustache. but not coming for me. senator ron johnson still says the people who marched on the capitol, who broke into it, who violently injured police officers. they love america. they respect police. and the only thing that would have made him scared, is if those people were black or anti-fascist. been paying special attention to the story of just what happened to officer sicknick. there are still so many unanswered questions around but today's charges begin to shed new light on that day. covers the justice department for "the new york times," she joins me now. katy, you have been doing an incredible job on this beat so thank you for taking a little time to us tonight. what do we learn from these filings? >> we learn there are two people on video on the body-worn cameras by one of the officers, on surveillance video, and others -- other crowd-sourced video. these two men talked about attacking officers. they were seen spraying officers down. one of them, being officer sicknick. and it seemed to be, in many ways, a premeditated attack. one gentleman, said to the other, you know, give me the bear spray. the other person said, no, not yet. the first person, instead, sprayed down the officers, anyway. so what we saw was an attack on officers. what the prosecutors were not able to do is link the spraying down of the officers with officer sicknick's death. so, what they did, instead, is they charged the assailants with, you know, attacking police officers. with violence on capitol grounds. and with other sorts of charges that, all combined, could lead up to a very hefty prison sentence but are not murder. >> that's right. we don't have homicide charges and it does seem there is just this, still-unanswered, direct causal question about what was the direct cause of -- of officer sicknick's death? what does seem clear, from at least the facts entered in these filings and from the affidavits of the fellow officers. there were some extremely powerful, toxic substance that was used by these individuals, allegedly, on them. and i was struck by the scars under the eyes. like, whatever this was, was pretty brutal. >> i mean, yes, you are right. what we saw is what we have said again and again, what multiple news outlets have reported. this was the most violent day, for law enforcement, since 9/11. we have all seen the images. this really underscores, in very, very graphic detail, the assault on these three officers. one of whom did die. and you are right. we might not know whether or not what officer sicknick was sprayed with ultimately led to his death. if it complicated his health. we know he went back to the office, afterwards, before getting extremely ill and being taken to hospital, where he died the next day. >> there is also some reporting, i understand, that you -- you have been pursuing and i wanted to sort of check in on this because, to me, the two -- the two biggest mysteries of that day remain the who assaulted officer sicknick? and what led to his death? and the mysterious pipe bomber. i mean, you know, these are, arguably, the two most, sort of, serious things that happened on that day. i mean, if those pipe bombs had gone off, we'd be dealing with a different situation. what is your reporting indicate about where that pipe bomber investigation is now that we have more surveyness that's been put out to the public? >> i think the pipe bomb case is something the public's going to have to reset expectations for. the pipe bombs themselves were discovered very quickly on the afternoon of january 6th. you know, they were found. they did not detonate. but in terms of who actually planted the bombs. that is something that law enforcement is going to be investigating for a while. we also know these cases are incredibly hard to crack. when you look back at the olympics bombing, you know, that took years and it was only after the actual bomber slipped up. and was spotted detonating a bomb at a women's health-care center that law enforcement was able to put together pieces. i think we may see something similar here. mostly, because these sorts of bombs are made with materials, easily found even in someone's garage. timers you can buy at walmart. even though the fbi is currently using all the tools at its disposal including data operations where they are examining things like receipts from hardware stores. so this is an investigation that, while incredibly important, because it could point to some, sort of, premeditated attack on the capitol. some lawmakers and law enforcement have said this could be a premeditated attack, meant to distract from the actual-capitol building. we probably will not know for a while. >> that point about the motivation has always stuck with me about what that day would have unfolded like, if two pipe bombs had gone off at the headquarters of both major parties. and what that police response might have looked like. and how that might have changed what happened at the capitol, that day. it's -- it's part of that complex picture. katie benner, who has been doing just phenomenal reporting on all of this. so, thank you, for your reporting and thank you for making time with us. all right. wisconsin senator ron johnson has seen, understandably, quite a back lash to his comments about how law respecting the insurrectionists were. and given multiple opportunities to retract those statements, he has not. the state's lieutenant governor called johnson's words racist and he joins me now. lieutenant governor, there was a sort of back and forth, today, ron johnson essentially doubling down on what -- what he had to say about the january-6th insurrection. what's your takeaway? >> all he does is him and huh. he is trying to fill a void that's been left by donald trump. he is trying to appeal to this very extreme wing of -- of his own party. and that is the wing, that infiltrated the u.s. capitol. we're talking about the ininsurrectionists. they are -- those are ron johnson's people and he has not tried to run away from it because he won't. because that is him. >> it's striking, you know, you -- ron johnson is a republican statewide-elected official. the other senator in your state is tammy baldwin. you -- you serve an administration, a democratic administration that won statewide. you know, wisconsin's not a -- it's not a trump-plus-20 state. it's not -- you know, it's probably a state, where i imagine, if you pulled wisconsinites across the political spectrum. what did you think of january 6th? you would get thumbs down. i mean, this does seem to be pretty far from where the median-wisconsin voter is. >> oh, absolutely. the views of ron johnson are so out of line with the mainstream here in the state of wisconsin. republican outlets have called for him to step down because of just reprehensible things that he said. calling joe biden's presidency into question. i mean, the list goes on. i remember, back in 2016, when he was running for re-election. he was talking about this is going to be the ronald and the donald. and since the donald is gone, we're only left with the ronald. and he is going to be as ridiculous as he possibly can, in the absence of donald trump. >> does he embody, though, what your state's republican party, increasingly, looks like? because it has been one of the most -- it's been one of the trumpier parties, i would say, as a political party. even though it's a very divided state. >> yes, the republican party here in wisconsin. i mean, they are as extreme as they get, as well. and that's because of gerrymandering. they have had the luxury of gerrymandering, where we have seen some very regressive legislation coming out in the last ten years. they have completely ignored the will of the people. when it comes to medicaid expansion, which has been one of the biggest parts of our budget this year and two years ago. overwhelmingly, supported by the public. marijuana legalization. overwhelmingly, supported by the public. fully funding our public schools. this is the work that we are trying to do right now. we're met with republican obstructionism. and it's -- this is just part and parcel of how they have chosen to operate. how they choose to govern. ron johnson is not an outlier, by any means. he's just the one that said it out loud. >> when i saw those comments, i thought, this -- this will probably blow up. this is a pretty offensive -- i mean, first of all, it's factually preposterous. it's just not true but it's also an offensive thing to say. has it? has it blown up in your state? >> i mean, look, we know who has been president the last four years. so many things should have blown up but they didn't. and people with hateful views, people with bigoted views, people who are openly racist and make openly-racist statements have gotten away with doing this for too long. why would it stop? you know, what's the point of a few people, you know, get mad. people get all up in arms. people who are of sound mind and sound judgment cast dispersion on what's going on, rightfully so. but they have seen what happened in the nation's highest office, without consequence. and so many of them are just going to replicate that behavior because if the president can get away with it, they'll assume they can, as well. >> final question for you. i mean, given your state, obviously, we saw what happened in kenosha, this summer. and -- and -- and then, the -- the aftermath of the apprehension of the young man that came from illinois and shot and killed two people in kenosha. after police shooting. i mean, when you see the senator from your state refer to people, that -- that, essentially, undertook the largest assault on law enforcement in a day since 9/11 and call them law abiding. what does that say to you about how he understands all this? >> honestly, the way he understands the world is just completely off. and it is -- honestly, it feels like an invitation for more of it to happen. i've never seen a person, who seems to get a thrill from this sort of behavior. who, sort of, wants this to continue to happen. i mean, if he said that he wasn't afraid. and he didn't feel any level of discomfort. he would be totally fine with it happening, again. and that's where the people of wisconsin have the biggest problem with ron johnson. because he doesn't represent us. he never has represented us. he's always been this way. but now, he feels that he has a -- some -- some sort of point to prove. but we're not buying it. >> wisconsin lieutenant governor, thank you so much for coming on. >> thank you. back in 2018, you might remember that this essay. right? said that the cruelty of the trump administration was the point. the cruelty was the point. it became this, kind of, you know, phrase that rung throughout the years. and the trump's policies and his words, his delight in sticking it to liberals. that it binds his most ardent supporters to him in shared scorn for those they hate and fear. but if the cruelty was the point in the trump administration, the biden administration is kind of flipping that on its head. they are trying to overwhelm supporters and nonsupporters by just helping them improve their lives. as he writes today, biden is choosing prosperity over vengeance to defeat trumpism. adam joins me, next. adam joins me, next. at visionworks, we want you to feel safe and we want you to see yourself in your new glasses and think, "ooh!" but if you get home and your "ooh" is more of a "hmm..." you have 100 days to change your mind. that's the visionworks difference. visionworks. see the difference. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ deposit, plan and pay with easy tools from chase. simplicity feels good. chase. make more of what's yours. oh, you think this is just a community center? no. it's way more than that. cause when you hook our community up with the internet... boom! look at ariana, crushing virtual class. jamol, chasing that college dream. michael, doing something crazy. this is the place where we can show the world what we can do. comcast is partnering with 1000 community centers to create wifi-enabled lift zones, so students from low-income families can get the tools they need to be ready for anything. oh we're ready. ♪ ♪ shots in arms and money in pockets. that's important, the american rescue plan is already doing what it was designed to do. it will help hundreds of thousands of small businesses keep their doors open. it makes a difference in communities. if you have a drug store, they have a beauty shop, a hardware store, it's the center of small communities. and it gets our schools and resources they need safely. >> president biden kicking off a week long push to get out in the country and tout the american rescue plan. first lady dr. jill biden was talking today. vice president kamala harris and her husband were in vegas, visiting a coronavirus vaccination site and talking up the plan's economic benefits. the plan that includes advocacy, which is like all the rhetoric of the biden presidency so far, a stark contrast with the previous administration. president biden seems intent on attempting at least to reach out to the 10s of millions voters that did not vote for him. ased a appear points out in the piece in the atlanta, the democrats are no saints but they have come to believe that both the viability of their party and the sustain stability of american democracy, depend on their capacity to broaden their appeal to light leaning voters. biden must convince supporters that he is in the their enemy. adam is here, joining me now. i love this piece because it sort of crystalized a bunch of things i had kind of been trying to put words to. you know, this idea that purely taking any sort of moral enlightenment away. the way the democrats understanding who they have to appeal to, verse the way trump did, is strike thing to me in the piece. how do you see the difference there? >> well, i think, obviously there's strong ideological differences in the republican party and the democratic party, that's expected in a democracy, what is different is that they can do it without appealing to a majority of voters. democrats can lose power even as they appeal to the majority of voters. which means that they is have on be able to broaden their appeal to people who think that trump was not so bad or even thought he was pretty good