unlike anything we have seen before in one week, president biden and donald trump will face off in the earliest general election debate in modern history. the biden campaign is a deliberate choice to challenge the saturday show a an early debate to force voters to reckon with the reality of the choice they have to make sooner rather than later. today, we got the details of how the debate will play out. independent candidate robert f kennedy junior officially failing to qualify for the debate, leaving trump and biden to share the stage alone next week. president biden won a coin toss allowing him to choose his referred position on stage, he will be changing at the podium on the right of the television screen while trump will have the podium on the left, the same configuration of the two debates held four years ago, donald trump got to choose the order of the closing statement, he chose to go last to give him the final word. we have new details on how the two candidates plan to prepare for the debate tonight, president biden camp david where he is expected to spend the weekend engaging in intensive preparations with this top campaign officials. by contrast, trump opted for less formal and vice presidential hopefuls. early ahead of a big debate, allies of the candidates working to manage expectations, trying to paint their candidate as the underdog to this, as you know, not a normal debate season in the last two months, trump and his allies and conservative media worked tirelessly to try to convince voters joe biden is a feebleminded old man in the throes of senility. in order to downplay expectations, conservative media has been trying to invent a reason why joe biden might appear more cogent than their viewers have been led to expect which is why fox news is screaming to promote the baseless conspiracy theory that joe biden, a lifelong teetotaler, is secretly on drugs. >> will be all hyped up, hyper caffeinated, whatever it is, it is interesting 70% of the country does like the idea of drug testing, i like the idea. >> should they be drug testing before the debate? >> i will tell you, i agree with that, they should, joe biden comes in, he is jacked up. >> biden was just up or whatever . >> the chairman of the doctors caucus in the republican party says he is jacked up. >> i'm assuming they will try to redo that. >> i was at the state of the union address, joe biden must have been checked up on something that day. >> donald trump lowered the bar, jacked up himself, who knows. >> assumed the same jacked of performance at this debate so be on the lookout for wide eyed joe biden. >> if you're following along, fox news wants to believe joe biden is senile but also he has access to secret drugs that will turbocharge him ahead of next week's contest. this week, trump himself permitted the theory joe biden would be on drugs during next week's debate during a rally in wisconsin. >> he will be so pumped up, he will be pumped up, you know all that stuff missing about a month ago from the white house, somebody didn't pick up hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cocaine. i wonder who that could have been. i don't know. actually, i think it was joe. >> like i said, this is not your normal start to an election season. looming over all of this, the fact the first time in history, one of two candidates on the debate stage is a recently convicted felon currently awaiting sentencing. this week, we also started to see signs the reality of a second trump term a breakthrough with voters. yesterday for the first time in months, fox news poll found joe biden pulling two points ahead of donald trump, three point shift since may. key to that, 11 point swing toward biden among independents in the last month. trump's conviction last month and 24 felony counts mark this first major inflection point in the campaign. the question is when the next debate will mark the second and which candidate will come out on top. joining me now is democratic strategists and former communication's adviser for hillary clinton 2016 presidential campaign and tim miller, writer at large at msnbc political analyst, thank you for being here. what is it sadie you republicans feel they have to manage expectations around how excellent joe biden might be during the debate and the way they have chosen to do that is by suggesting perhaps he is on some type of performance- enhancing drug? >> if there is a magical drug that reversed senility or dementia, whoever invented that would be rolling in so much money, no way to keep that secret. i love that is the line they decided to go with, very strange. this whole play has been strange on their part, i am wondering about their inability to lower expectations on this, they got burned on the state of the union went president biden came out and was clear and forceful and presidential and authoritative, all the things they said he could not possibly be and they clearly know they got burned on that, that is probably why they are trying to make this mad dash scramble at the last minute. their team, with trump, every accusation is an admission. whatever he says you are doing, he is doing. trump's mental acuity isn't great. >> the speeches more than 30 seconds, the syntax does not make sense. >> he held a roundtable with ceos predisposed to support him , who left less inclined to support him because he could not hold a thought. they were concerned, these are pro- business ceos that should be in trump's corner who were too concerned about his inability to follow the conversation, to continue to support him. that is the candidate they have to put up next week. it looks like a desperate play because it is. >> to underscore the desperation, not only donald trump, his allies talking about biden, lashing out on truth social saying, quote, looks forward to seeing president biden at the fake debate on thursday, also attacking the moderators. the fact that he feels the need to undermine the debate, not necessarily surprising but it is still a towel -- tell. >> reporter: they got on the skis with the dementia joe saying and expectations way out of whack, they are grasping for anything to change the narrative around this. it is crazy listening to that, i turn on fox from time to time to know what is going on over there. just the amount of discussion about this fake conspiracy they came up with, sober joe biden, all of a sudden decided age 80 he would start doing uppers, it is so wild, the fake news happening over there to borrow a phrase, it would be like if i cannot write on this panel, i think maybe donald trump might need it diaper on the debate stage next week. for two days, would he think about the diaper strategy? should he have a diaper, not have one? it is made up, i think it shows they don't have a lot to work with. >> let's talk about the elements that will be part of the debates, this idea of which podium you choose, this idea of who goes first and who goes last with closing arguments, we know that trump was incensed during his new york case that his attorneys did not get to make the final closing argument. does any of it matter? >> the truth is, almost everybody tuning into a presidential debate has already made up their mind. let's say that right there. with this is going to do, repeat several of the arguments being used against president biden, i'm not seeing that happening the other way, trump is a show man, entertainer. he is very good at that so i'm sure at that end of all of his reality shows, he got to have the last word. i was in college when that show was on, it would end with him in the room, he would dispense wisdom the producers had written for him and that was how the show ended. i'm sure he got used to that formulate, reality tv is formula and i kind of think that is what he thinks is happening here. he has the idea that whoever speaks last will linger in the minds of everybody watching. maybe that works for him but that is not really the way most people process information. it is not that important, what side of the stage you're standing on. i'm glad president biden chose the sites he competed last time, i'm sure that matters more to donald trump than it does to him. >> indeed, thank you for reminding me of the apprentice the last time donald trump had message discipline of any variety. you have the debates on the horizon, the new york times reporting that billionaire timothy mellon is giving $50 million to a pro-trump group. we are learning billionaire michael bloomberg will give $20 million to biden pac. help us understand that level of money, what it means, it is more money than most of us can wrap our heads around and what it means at this point in the race, if you think it means anything? >> reporter: i think it means a little thing, joe biden had huge money advantage to date, that in the conviction can explain the poll movement you mentioned in the intro. level the playing field, it is worth noting donald trump changed his tune on several issues because a couple billionaires have given him money, specifically the tiktok ban is one, others recently. trump understood there was a gap, felt like he needed money and element of desperation into it, i think that is starting to get shored up on the trump side of things. the one other thing relatable with the ads and debate, i don't know anybody out there is switching from trump to biden, i'm sure there will be somebody or vice versa. i think the important thing for biden in the ad campaign from bloomberg and the debate stage is, there's a group of democratically aligned voters that are not on board with him right now, maybe concerned about his age, maybe inflation. you can see the numbers, democratic senators are running ahead of him. that is his main goal next week, to do well enough to demonstrate he is up for the job to remind people, that base why they like him. the swing voters are important, you think about the ads and the debate, that is the low hanging fruit, biden has room to grow in the polls if he can bring those folks in the democratic coalition, traditionally, back into his camp. >> let's talk about that, new reporting in the new york times about sliding in support for president biden among women dropping from 13 points to eight points since the 2020 election. that is part of the constituency he has to win back. >> i think tim is correct. biden is talking to the democratic base, i think trump is talking to his base. trump has been very clear he is not interested adding new voters to the people who voted for him in 2020. he has done nothing to broaden that. biden does not have that strategy, he needs everybody he got in 2020 and once more than that. i think especially with women, there's a lot of contrast here. if joe biden is interested talking about the absolute decimation of reproductive freedom and donald trump being responsible for that, the reason why we have women dying from miscarriages, women scared to travel while pregnant, the reason why we have people putting off starting families or adding to families is directly because of donald trump . i think women do understand that and the more we focus on that, especially with the upcoming attack on ivf and birth control, trump is also behind, i see that writing itself. >> aliseda caveat here being, one, talking about a lot of folks not to, to your point, not necessarily following every movement of this election. yes, in polling, some of the women may say inflation, i think has become the catchall for economic insecurity more broadly, you could talk about corporate greed as much as you talk about inflation talking about prices going up. it pulls higher than reproductive rights, it does not necessarily mean it is the issue that drives you out to the polls. >> absolutely, the cost of living is something you deal with multiple times a day, it is a lot harder to see who the villain is. it is price gouging, corporate greed, supply-chain issues that are still being worked out post- pandemic, it is a global thing, every country is talking about the cost of living. it is not just us. you interact with that every day. when you interact with reproductive rights, it is a foundational, intimate, never forget experience when you actually stop and think about what it means to have a politician take away your decision, when and whether to have a child, what does that mean for couples who will need ivf to conceive? what is it mean for women starting their careers in their 20s and they don't want to have families until they are in their 30s. women make these decisions all the time, not just the ability to access abortion. everyone interacts with every person who can get pregnant interacts with their idea of reproductive freedom. having politicians all of a sudden be in charge of that, that is the kind of issue that really motivates you. that is the kind of issue you get out of the house regardless of how busy your schedule is that you vote on and you know who to blame for it. it is really hard to make one vote work for inflation but we lost roe v. wade because of donald trump and we will lose more if he is president again and people understand it is an easy case to make. >> tim, part of the reason you're talk about presidential debate in june, the biden campaign understood this binary choice needed to be before voters as soon as possible. talking about the context of the debates, eric levitz on fox pointing out this week as of late may, the biden campaign airing $13.6 million worth of ads, the trump campaign had yet to spend a single penny on tv spots. the biden campaign knows that they have to set the narrative for the race, right? >> reporter: yeah, absolutely. i think it is because the biden campaign had the money and the trump campaign didn't because they're spending it on lawyers and struggling to raise money. they have the money to spend. the biden campaign, going next to the group, women, working- class black and hispanic men, young voters, there's a certain group, they tend to be the ones not as tuned into the news, traditionally democrats, right now, just aren't going for biden at the rates biden needs. it is tv ads, youtube ads, tehran, paid surrogates, they all had to do that earlier to reach those folks because that is the way to reach them, they are not being reached on news programs with traditional media. >> jess mcintosh, tim miller, thank you for getting us started tonight. we have a lot to get to, the governor of louisiana tries to tempt the supreme court to separation -- dismantle the separation between church and state. explosive reporting about the florida judge overseeing donald trump's criminal prosecution over classified documents, that is next. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost. 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[music playing] want to save on some of the biggest names in streaming on the network made for streaming? x marks the spot. now you can add the new xfinity streamsaver™ that includes netflix, peacock, and apple tv+. that's xfinity streamsaver™ for just $15 a month. all your favorites. all in one place. only from xfinity. for more watching and less spending... x marks the spot. do it all on the network made for streaming, and bring on the good stuff. judge aileen cannon first randomly assigned to oversee donald trump's criminal trial over his handling of classified documents. questions were repeatedly raised about whether she was the right judge to handle it. the fact she was nominated by the defendant, donald trump, there's a relative lack of trial experience compared to other federal judges in florida. she presented over four short reaching criminal cases during her tenure, nothing remotely close to the complexity of the case involving felony criminal charges against a former president. since taking the case, judge cannon's rulings spark more questions among legal experts about the way she is overseeing it. today, like bester, the new york times reporting indicates those legal experts are not alone. back when she was first appointed to the case, judge cannon's own colleagues including the chief judge in her district expressed concern about her taking the case. according to the times, just after she drew the assignment, more experienced colleagues on the federal bench in florida urged her to pass it up and handed off to another jurist area judge cannon refused which leads us to where we are today. the case that has stalled indefinitely, favoring donald trump's defense strategy of delay, delay, delay. joining me now, msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. thank you for being here. i always come to you with the trump legal stories and ask you to contextualize how big of a deal a story is or isn't. you were kicked back on your heels by this. >> i was totally kicked back, text destroyed a producer on our network earlier today, literally i think i looked like the person on the commercials in the 1980s commercial setting back like this. here is why, the fact the story exists is almost as big of a deal as the fact two different judges, colleagues of judge cannon, called her up and asked her to consider removing herself from the case. the reason is is, federal judges have lifetime tenure. they are generally perceived to be secure in their jobs, they don't talk about when another or their cases outside of school. this is taken to the new york times reporting last year of all the consideration that led up to dobbs in the first place, the fact the justices voted among themselves to take the case but concealed that from the public for a long time. the very fact somebody wants to give the public insight into these processes happening in the scenes, including the fact two more senior judges are calling judge cannon and asking her to consider stepping back from the case, that in and of itself is a huge deal, separate and apart from the substance of the conversations. >> let's talk about the substance of the conversation, part of it her relative inexperience, also her ruling that made it seem as though there could be an appearance of bias. >> part of what we are doing is speculative dance because all we have is the new york times' wording to go by it, i don't want to parse it too closely. this could've been coordinated effort, the first judge calls and says, hey, we don't have a secure facility in fort pierce for you to review the documents, it would have to be constructed at great cost, which you consider handing this up to miami judge because they're such a facility there? when judge cannon says no, the chief judge of the district, not nominated by democratic president but by george w. bush, calls her and makes it more plain. hey, you had a rough time of it there when you handled the civil suit that was related to the mar-a-lago search and essentially says to her, not you are too inexperienced to do this, maybe this would be better handled by a more experienced judge, almost insinuates, your prior experience with this case or something closely related thereto, raises questions about your either competence, bias, or both. that conversation is happening between two colleagues, both of equal stature, in terms of the law, is staggering. >> help me understand that piece of it, how usual or unusual is it for judges to have these types of conversations peer-to-peer? >> i can't recall another conversation where peer-to-peer like this has been recorded. the closest analog is about 20 years ago, a judge in manhattan, the federal court, southern district of new york had expose published about him in the new york times because he sat on 70 different motions in civil cases, nearly 300 motions on his docket more than six months old. the times did the reporting talking about the consequences to people litigants before him. in that reporting, that then chief judge of the district, michael b casey went on to be the attorney general, and ordinate delay is concerned that any judicial district. theoretically, the chief judge of the southern district of florida shares may be that concern, it does not seem like that called her to call judge cannon because those conversations held at the outside of the case, not where we are right now where we have seen her propensity to delay, delay, delay. >> want us or tomorrow's hearing what are you watching for? >> the hearing happening on a legal issue litigated multiple times in different areas of the country including respected and special counsel robert mueller, is itself surprising -- >> the question of whether or not jack smith was unlawfully appointed? >> correct, under two different arguments, the department of justice, the lawfulness of his appointment as inferior officer by the attorney general. she has scheduled two days of hearings just on that argument and has also authorized three different nonparties or what are called friends of the court to make arguments. i don't know that i'm familiar with any other case, let alone a criminal case, of this importance where arguing in front of a federal district court judge can issue of constitutional importance, one dealt with by multiple courts before. >> i will not ask about reassignment, we ended up on the cul-de-sac over and over again, let me ask about alvin bragg bombarded with death threats and harassing messages since trump was connected on 34 felony counts. not surprising, still alarming. >> incredibly alarming, the substance of the threats themselves is alarming. they are hateful, racist, they are recent and they were all sent to him through his campaign apparatus. theoretically, the nypd in the session of many more messages of that kind sent to alvin bragg's office or his home. these are sent to his campaign website, the new york daily news doing really bester reporting tonight showing us how much hate has been directed at the manhattan d.a. just for doing his job. >> lisa rubin, msnbc legal correspondent, thank you for being with us. you have heard sets of rules like this before, thou shall not steal, thou shall not kill, thou shall not discipline sheldon in classrooms. legal organizations call new louisiana law requiring public classrooms to display the 10 commandments, quote, latently unconstitutional. the governor calls it respecting the rule of law. that is next. have you ever thought of getting a walk-in tub for you or someone you love? 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wrong, not so fast. this is a highly politicized supreme court, a court recently made decisions expand the place of religion in public life suggesting if this case ever makes it to the highest court, there might be majority ruling to hold louisiana's new law. two years ago, 6-3 vote, the supreme court sided with a high school football coach in washington ruling that the coach had a constitutional right to pray at the 50 yard line after games. even if some players felt pressured to join him. writing for the majority, justice gorsuch and respect for religious expressions is indispensable to life in a free diverse republic. last year, the court concerned voted 6-3 in favor of evangelical christian artist that did not want to design wedding sites for gay couples. if governor landry helps the aclu lawsuit will reach the supreme court, it seems more likely than ever, this court might uphold his 10 commitments law. we will talk more about that possibility next. possibility next slowing my cancer from growing and living longer are two things i want from my metastatic breast cancer treatment. and with kisqali, i can have both. kisqali is a pill that when taken with an aromatase inhibitor helps delay cancer from growing and has been proven to help people live significantly longer across three separate clinical trials. so, i have the confidence to live my life. kisqali can cause lung problems or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. avoid grapefruit during treatment. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain, a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills, or other symptoms of an infection, a severe or worsening rash, are or plan to become pregnant, or breastfeeding. long live life and long live you. ask your doctor about kisqali today. an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. what if we don't get down in time voltaren, to get a birthday gift for zoe? 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[ surprised scream ] don't panic. gift easy with etsy. this bill mandates the display of the 10 commandments in every classroom in public elementary, secondary and post education schools in the state of louisiana. >> because if you want to respect the rule of law, you have to start from the original law given, which was moses. >> that was louisiana's republican governor jeff landry yesterday giving a shout out to moses, after signing louisiana's 10 commandments bill you may have noticed the small girl behind appeared to think during the event, we hope she is okay. louisiana's new law means starting in 2025, every public classrooms in the state will have to display christian versus on a poster no smaller than 11 by 14 inches and in large, easily readable font. joining me is executive director of the aclu of louisiana and msnbc columnist and chair of religious studies at the university of pennsylvania, two of the smartest women that i know, thank you both so much for being here tonight. what is the impact of this law? >> hb 71 signed into law means that children all over the state of louisiana and every single classroom whether it be the math classroom, art classroom will be subjected essentially to codified christianity, our schools, public schools will be turned into sunday schools and throughout the time we have been studying this law, we know one thing, the first amendment and its free exercise clause, which allows each and every united states citizen to choose their own faith or no faith at all, and the importance of the establishment clause which says that the government should not interfere, coerce, proselytize or choose or give one's particular religion preference over another. those two clauses are incredibly important in the united states constitution and for the first amendment we believe in challenging this law, we will ensure freedom of religion and the first amendment are still rights louisiana citizens hold. >> it would be easy to look at the story and say, it is just happening in louisiana or that is just governor landry know, you have been very clear, this is part of a well-funded, well constructed movement, pull back the curtain, who and what is behind that movement? >> many things. one of the things i think is really important for people to say, a, this is old playbook, lots of organizations over the years have done this, heritage foundation, family research council, all of these christian groups alongside other groups working and school boards and other places to do this. what i think is important for people to understand is two things. one is we keep having the same repeat over and over again, we want prayer back in schools, the 10 commitments in schools, post up religious figures in schools. what gets me about the louisiana law, over 1 million catholics, this is a protestant version of the 10 commitments they want to put up. this is a crazy part, three different versions, the jewish version, christian version, catholic version, and protestant version. can we put up all three kinds of the 10 commandments? to say the least of putting them up in the first place, which i think is wrong. >> you take the context, the idea this could be headed to the supreme court, we recently heard justice alito in a recording agreement the country needs to be returned in place of godliness. the appeal to heaven flag flying at his vacation home. if you think about this as a pipeline to the supreme court, how much does this alarm you? >> it alarms me greatly because i believe the supreme court might say this is okay to do. obviously, the 2005 ruling about the supreme court that said kentucky could not do that was a different supreme court than what we have now. this is a thing we have talked about over and over again, this kind of christian nationalism that will put other morals on top of everybody else, you don't even practice christianity. what about muslims and jews, atheists, everyone else who does not believe the 10 commitments are part of their belief system? i think it is disingenuous for louisiana to do this in the guise of creating more morals, i do see the christians running things, sometimes think about that and even follow the rules themselves. that i think is the hypocritical part of this. >> not only do they not follow it themselves, their lining up behind a person who astonishing does not follow any of them. we will get to that in a second. the supreme court has a precedent known as the lemon test established in 1971, supreme court case used in many first amendment cases. explain what it is and whether it could be challenged. >> absolutely, in stone versus graham, three-part test, the lemon test you have to look at the purpose or intent of the piece of legislation, doesn't have secular or nonsecular purpose? in the stone case, the court did not have to go to the second and third problems because it was clear requiring a religious scriptural document like the 10 commandments was clearly religious intent and therefore they did not have to go further and they struck it down based on that. parts two and three of the test, part two is a fax test looking to determine whether or not the effect of the law will cause the government to prejudice one religious over another, to preference of one religion over another. then you're looking at entanglement. does the government have unnecessary tangled into religious affairs? we know the strong rentable sophia stamas of -- establishment clause require the government stay neutral and not take a stance. the reason we are in a bit of a tenuous position as the court set aside the lemon test in 2022 in the kennedy case. what federal court that has ever declared holding the 10 commandments and posting them in the classroom is constitutional. that has never been done. also, the 2022 kennedy case is distinguishable from these facts because the court, that was a narrow ruling in 2022 where the court said children were not required to take part in the prayer, this was something the coach was doing on his own and kids were not a captive audience. in louisiana, k-12 education is mandated by the state, our children are a captive audience, they are particularly vulnerable group. having this religious scripture in every classroom is indoctrination and does strike at the heart of our religious freedom of exercise religion and establishment clause. >> especially when these are the same people on and on about parental rights and worried about which books are on your kids' bookshelf at school, meanwhile, they want to foist religious beliefs onto children and by extension, their parents . none of this is actually to them about freedom, it is not about godliness, the same people lining up behind donald trump. if not about any of that, what is it actually about? >> it is about using reality as a way to get power, to have power and authority with the schools, a way to dig what people learn. obviously, with all the book bans and everything going on, it is a way to instill, substantiate christianity as the religion of the land. that is not the case, obviously . you heard about the establishment clause, no religious test for president these are all religious tests and there are ways in which they're using the public school system to do this at the same time asking for vouchers, accommodations for private schools. they will send their children to. this is not simply about how you put religion and making morality as he says to make kids better, it is about them substantiating their christianity as a, the law of the land and b, the religion everyone should follow whether or not they follow this tenants themselves. >> alanah odoms and anthea butler, thank you for joining us. another decision day at the supreme court, it came and went without decisions with the blockbuster cases. what are the justices waiting for? 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x marks the spot. now you can add the new xfinity streamsaver™ that includes netflix, peacock, and apple tv+. that's xfinity streamsaver™ for just $15 a month. all your favorites. all in one place. only from xfinity. for more watching and less spending... x marks the spot. do it all on the network made for streaming, and bring on the good stuff. it has been 192 days since special counsel jack smith asked the supreme court to address the question of trump's immunity. it has been 113 days since the supreme court agreed to hear the case. it has been 56 days since they actually heard it. and yet, even as we reach the very tail end of this supreme court term, we still do not have a decision. that decision is just one of a whopping 19 decisions we are still waiting on from the supreme court. as mark joseph stern put it earlier this month in slate, supreme court's june opinion dump will be devastating and unprecedented. thanks for being with us tonight. when you walk through the dates as i just did, it becomes additionally jarring that we do not have a decision here. >> it is an indictment of the supreme court itself that we are sitting here at the end of june and there is no sign that the justices will hand down a decision in the trump immunity case. before the very last opinion day which could be june 28th or july 1st. they rushed out their decision allowing trump to remain on the ballot in colorado in record time. when his rights were implicated, they easily got this decision out in favor of him. but now in this incredibly important test of accountability for an allegedly criminal former president, they are running out the clock. it is important to remember, even if the supreme court somehow grants a clean win to jack smith at this point, it will still be very much a loss for smith and for the country because by inserting this extraordinary delay, the justices have pretty much guaranteed that trump will not face trial for january 6th before november. >> let me ask, do you think we ever get an answer on why it took this long? >> very low odds that we will know. it would have to come from the liberal justices. they would have to invite people like me into the told and tell you things on the record. perhaps samuel alito dragging his heels heels and the liberal justices are not playing that game. they are being as conciliatory as possible. the liberal justices are pretending to be friends with the conservatives. they are not seeking to burn any bridges. it would be seen as burning them and the liberals want to play nice to get as many votes as they can. >> that is not the only dynamic playing out among the justices. you had yet another piece in slate about the surprising divide, i would call it surprising between how conservative justice clarence thomas is deciding cases and amy coney barrett. what's the trouble in paradise? >> they both consider themselves originalists. amy coney barrett is a sicklier for rules. she wants rules that can be workable. where clarence thomas acts like a king who making these grand pronunciations and decrees and just assumes if it doesn't work out below, he can step in and fix it later. and justice barrett is showing some real impatience for what i would call justice thomas' sloppy work. his sloppy use of history. his reckless use of originalism in a way that is difficult for lower courts to follow. one of the block busters is whether domestic abusers have the right to bear arms. whether or not the government can disarm people who abuse their spouses and that's going to pit thomas against barrett i think. because for barrett, the answer seems obvious. she seemed to say of course the government can take away their guns but thomas is so obsessed with history and his own misreading of history he might not be okay with disarming domestic abusers. it could have major practical consequences dividing that conservative block. and showing barrett to be the more practical. i wouldn't even say moderate. but the less extreme justice when it comes to originalism. >> it is interesting we are talking a lot about immunity. you mentioned the case about guns, cases about abortion. about january 6th. i mean, there is so much that hangs in the balance. you would not expect it to be a last day of school hand in your papers sort of situation. >> i think the justices are planning to flood the zone. they have taken up a bunch of cases they did not need to this term because they have items on their agenda they want to check off as fast as possible. they could lose their super major few ity any time on the right. to bring enforcement actions against big polluters for instance. they are hoping the public won't really understand. it is complicated. you need to learn some administrative law to wrap your head around it. they will take that on. they will issue major decisions one on top of the other the last couple of days of the term. it will be a huge news dump. and frankly i think they are hoping that the average american, the average voter, aren't really going to have the bandwidth to process this and factor it into their vote in move. >> mark joseph stern. senior writer covering the courts and the law for slate magazine. thank you so much for taking the time tonight. >> thanks. >> that is our show this evening. now it is time for the last word with laura haefeli. good evening lawrence. >> good evening alicia. we have dr. anthony fauci joining us tonight. he will never be thanked enough for the lives he has saved including our own for all we know. with the covid vaccine but i'm going to try. i will spend some time trying to thank him enough. >> trying to thank him, thank