podcast. watch and listen for free wherever you get your podcast. you can also catch the velshi content on youtube. stay where you are. charles coleman picks up our coverage on the katie phang show. it starts right now. good afternoon, i'm charles coleman junior in for my friend and colleague, katie phang. live from msnbc headquarters in new york city. and we have a lot to talk about. here is the week that was. let's start in florida where judge aileen cannon held a hearing yesterday. over donald trump's motion to dismiss is classified documents case. now his lawyers are arguing that special counsel jackson his appointment was unconstitutional. trump's legal team is going against president and arguing that a special counsel must be appointed by law and is subject to senate confirmation. judge cannon, however, appeared at least somewhat skeptical of trump's position, specifically taking issue with the notion that jack smith appointment was akin to a shadow government. while it does appear unlikely that trump's indictment would be dismissed and the documents case, the fact that such a trivial legal argument would be entertained is, in and of itself, a major win for the former president who has continued to successfully run out the clock. joining me now for a round up of all the legal news this week is my friend and colleague, barbara quaid, and is a bc legal analyst, former attorney of michigan, and the cohost of the sisters-in-law podcast. it's so good to have you with us. really excited to talk about all the things we have had going on this week, but i have to start in florida. what were your big takeaways from judge cannon's hearing yesterday? >> probably relief more than anything. the reporting is that she did seem skeptical of this challenge to the special counsel appointment. illegality here has been decided by a number of different courts. the concept of a special counsel and independent counsel was upheld by the supreme court in a big case called morrison versus olsen. as you said, the big surprise really was the fact that she and the oldest in this argument. she had a four hour argument, she appointed friends of the court to provide additional arguments in addition to that which the parties put on. it seemed to me that most judges would have decided this on the papers quite quickly. i have been trying to think of an analogy that may be ordinary people could understand, so imagine you have invited a few friends to dinner and you are trying to decide whether to serve red wine or white wine. you think about it for a minute, you give it some thought, you think about what you're serving, and you make a decision. instead what she did was invite and experts on red wine, experts on white wine, and sit them down and listen to them for four hours about what she should serve at her dinner party. it sounds like she asked all the right questions and is voting in the right direction, but i am really curious that she would spend this much time on this issue. >> all the things i know about wine i know from the bootleg sommeliers, my friends. we have to talk while your talk. if you are listening to judge cannon about this hearing, and you are thinking about the things that you heard, there was a bit of talk about merrick garland and his involvement. to what degree should we read anything into that? and if so, what should we read into it? the fact that she was seemingly concerned about the presence or involvement of the ag in this case? >> you know, it is relevant to the conversation, because the precise legal question is whether jack smith is a principal legal officer or an inferior legal officer. and so, the theory is that if he is principal, it is unconstitutional because he would be required to be confirmed by the senate. and if he is simply inferior, that means he works for someone else. in this case, the attorney general. it seems to me that the regulations themselves are what you should be looking at, not the application of exactly how the mechanics have applied in this case. if anything, it seemed like she was delving into some of the deliberative practices that have actually occurred behind the scenes here. you know, executive branch, lawyers don't like to indulge exactly how the mechanics work, because that could tend to infringe upon privileges on the inside. so, i am not sure why she thought it was necessary to know about how this case is unfolded, versus how the regulations provide, which is that the attorney general appoints a special counsel, can remove the special counsel, and must approve the major decisions that that person makes. and so, i think that she was, perhaps, just trying to understand herself, exactly how it was working here. but i am not surprised that the justice department pushed back to guest this peek behind the curtain. >> speaking of a peek behind the curtain, there have been new reports that come out that basically, before judge cannon took this case, there were other federal judges including the chief judge from the southern district of florida, who advised her not to take it. i merely because she was a trump appointee, and we all know that. do you think that some of the rulings that she has made since then, combined with what we know about the advice that she was given from other judges play a factor down the road in terms of her continued involvement, staying on this case at all? >> yeah, that's a really interesting reporting, isn't it? quite extraordinary that judges would ask another judge to step aside. you know, i like to presume good faith by both judge cannon and the judges involved here. sometimes a chief judge will step in from the random appointment of judges if a judge has a caseload that is too heavy, that there is a conflict of interest, and offered to reassign the case. so, i presume good faith in all of those actions. but i think the chief judge likely saw with the rest of us all, which is in light of the very strange rulings that judge cannon made, back when she had the search warrant case, it did raise at least the appearance for the public to question her impartiality. and it has only gotten worse as she has made other rulings that are so curiously favorable to donald trump, including, in my mind, the oddest one, which was the request the parties engage, her word, with the presidential records act in the jury instructions months before a trial date has even been set. and certainly one that is a non sequitur, because the presidential records act clarifies that presidential records belong to the people and not to the person who served as president. so, it, i think, has only added to the concerns about her impartiality as time goes on. but, of course, she is, herself, independent. she has been appointed by the president, confirmed by the senate. so if the case is assigned to her, it is hers to keep until either she recuses or a court of appeals recuses her for her. >> curiously favorable. i love that phrasing, and you will probably hear me borrow it at some point. we've been in florida for long enough, let's go to d.c.. this immunity, the presidential immunity opinion that everybody is waiting for. give me your sort of got in terms of what you think happened. i know what i think, but i am sitting in the chair, so i could ask you what you think. what should we expect or be prepared for? >> yeah, also curiously favorable in terms of this delay. i saw, recently, that when the supreme court decided the watergate nixon tape case, it took them exactly 60 days from oral argument to decision in that case. we have been waiting over two months for decision in this case, and every day that goes by makes it less likely that the trial in this case will occur before the election. and so, delay is very much part of donald trump's game here, and it has been disappointing that the supreme court has waited so long to decide this case. i think, in the end, they are going to find that donald trump is not immune from prosecution for this case. but they are trying to figure out where to draw the lines. one of the things that justice gorsuch said during oral arguments was that i am not worried about this case, but we are deciding this case for the ages. of course, as chief justice john roberts has said, if you can decide a case narrowly, then you should decide a case narrowly. i don't know why they feel the need to decide for the ages. just decide this case and get on with it. i would imagine there is disagreement, concurring, dissenting opinions going back and forth. and we won't get this decision until next week or maybe even the week after. the clock is running out. so sometime within the next couple of weeks we are going to get a decision here. i think it will be favorable to the government, and i think this case will proceed. the only question now is whether the trial can occur before the election, and i am skeptical that that can happen. >> barbara mcquade, who i have a curiously favorable affinity for, particularly when she is talking about red and white wine. you so much for being here this morning. , the katie phang show. black voters and the ballot. why some black voters in key states say that they are souring on both donald trump and biden. what democrats have to do to make inroads with that key constituency ahead of november. senator reverend rafael warnick joins me after the break to discuss. i know we had some technical difficulties at the start, but we are working on getting that altogether. just stay tuned for more on the katie phang show. we will be right back. back. ♪♪ ♪♪ citi's industry leading global payments solutions help their clients move money around the world seamlessly in over 180 countries... and help a partner like the world food programme as they provide more than food to people in need. together, citi and the world food programme empower families across the globe. ♪♪ i thought i was sleeping ok... but i was waking up so tired. then i tried new zzzquil sleep nasal strips. their four—point lift design opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married. 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(inner monologue) my kids don't know what they want. you know who knows what she wants? me! i want a massage, in amalfi, from someone named giancarlo. and i didn't live in that shoebox for years. not just— with empower, we get all of our financial questions answered. so you don't have to worry. i guess i'll get the caviar... just kidding. join 18 million americans and take control of your financial future with a real time dashboard and real live conversations. empower. what's next. a slow network is no network for business. that's why more choose comcast business. and now we're introducing ultimate speed for business, our fastest plans yet. we're up to 12 times faster than verizon, at&t, and t-mobile. and existing customers could even get up to triple the speeds at no additional cost. from the company with 99.9% network reliability and advanced cyber security, it's ultimate speed for ultimate business. and it's all from comcast business. welcome back. when it comes to the black vote in november, it is a case of good news bad news for president biden and the democrats. first up, the good news. for biden, at least according to a recent usa today suffolk university poll of michigan and pennsylvania, a majority of black voters and those crucial swing states say that they would vote for president biden over donald trump. sounds good enough. but here's the bad news. while still above 50%, that support has actually fallen at least 20 points in both of those states compared to 2020. trump and his maga faithful are hoping to jump on this with outreach events and trump himself speaking today at temple university in philadelphia, which is a democratic stronghold, to say the least. but the concern from democrats should not be if trump will win the black vote in november. in 2020, he took less than 10% of it. the real concern is whether he can chip away enough at biden's lead it to turn already tight race in his favor. joining me now is democratic senator from georgia, alpha man, pastor, my mom is pastor at his legendary ebenezer baptist church. raphael warnock. senator warnock, take you so much for being here. let's talk about this poll. what are your thoughts there, and why do you think there may be a struggle with the biden and campaign grabbing the level of lack voters that they had four years ago? >> well, thank you so very much. since you already let the cat out of the bag and told the world i'm your mom is pastor, here is what she will tell you. that i preached last sunday, long before i was a united states senator i was a preacher of the gospel. the gospel literally means good news. though i preach the good news last sunday, i've got to preach it again. because there are some folks who didn't hear it. there are folks who heard it who need to hear it again. and our job between now and november is to tell the good news of what the biden harris administration has accomplished, particularly for african-americans. and i would be nervous if i didn't have good news to share. here's the good news. black wealth is up. up some 60% since before the pandemic. when you talk about student debt relief, something that is near and dear to my heart as the first college graduate in my family, this administration has canceled the student debt of some 5 million americans. we think about end of the year, it will be 30 million. we have done about $160 billion of student debt relief. we have invested some $16 billion and historically black colleges and universities, the black and white racial wealth gap is narrowing, and black household wealth is up. so i know that there is work to be done. people are still struggling after coming out of a once in a century pandemic. the question is, who is going to stand up for black america? joe biden has receipts. donald trump has enough problems of his own. >> senator warnock, i wanted to follow-up with you there. do you think that in terms of the framing and messaging, because everything you are talking about, the strong points that favor joe biden being the choice for black americans, for example, that seems to be getting lost in terms of a certain segment of the population, particularly black men, not feeling like they are being spoken to. so, do you think that given everything that is a plus right now, that the biden campaign has to work with, that the messaging is crafted in a way that is going to reach the voters that they need to turn out? >> well, you know, black voters cannot be taken for granted. i like the fact that the biden harris campaign is not taking black voters for granted. this idea that black folks will just show up is wrongheaded. and i believe that joe biden understands that. kamala harris certainly understands it, which is why as we move forward into this campaign you will see the ways in which they have already invested far more than donald trump, in reaching out to black communities, even as they work to lift them up. you will see them ramp up over the next few months, in order to tell that story. the job isn't done until november 5th. >> senator, i want you to take a listen with me to north carolina lieutenant governor mark robinson, who spoke this week about democrats and the black vote. let's see what he has to say. >> you know the democrats were the ones that ran slavery. they found out a different way to enslave people. instead of giving them slave shacks and shackles, they decided they were going to give them welfare checks and the . >> i want to put aside some of the foolishness in terms of the antics that we may have been looking at. that was not a pulpit. it was a lectern. nevertheless, what i want to ask you is is it a good thing if we have an appeal from both political parties for the black vote? putting aside for a moment the level of sincerity or legitimacy of the appeal, we like to say we are not a monolith. is it a good thing if we have folks on both sides saying our names? >> look, at the end of the day, this election is a binary choice. and i want to be very clear to the folks who are watching me, anything you do other than show up to vote for joe biden and kamala harris is going to put donald trump, a convicted felon, a little bit closer to the white house. we have always had characters like mark robinson and the african-american community. and there is a reason why he appeals to a certain part, a certain segment, particularly of the trump base. he trades in racial stereotypes, as we just heard a moment ago. he is who he is. white supremacy is white supremacy, even if it shows up in blackface. we have a binary choice in this election. it is an existential threat that we are dealing with, not only to our democracy, but to the progress that we have made over the last 50 years in the african-american community. and so, the question for voters is do you want to go backwards? or do you want to go forward? i think that the contrast could not be more stark here. and this is not the first time that we have seen somebody who looks like mark robinson tried to do the bidding of people like donald trump. donald trump sent herschel walker to the state of georgia to run against me, as if like people are so unsophisticated that they could not tell the difference between that dude and me. well, the rest is history. here i sit, and come 2024 the biden harris campaign will help black americans to see the work that we have already been doing, the work we continue to do, and they will do for them the same thing they did for me. >> senator reverend raphael warnock, listen. you are not bad for an alpha man, no matter what anybody else says. make sure when you see my mama in the choir you give her a big hug and kiss for me. thank you for joining me this morning. >> your mom is wonderful. i look forward to seeing you in church, brother. >> yes sir. and don't forget, you can still catch my msnbc special, black man in america, the road to 24 where jermaine lee and myself offer a candid look at america through the eyes of black men. speaking with congressman hakeem jeffries, civil rights attorney ben crump, and so many more. watch black men in america, the road to 2024, streaming on msnbc.com and peacock now. coming up after the break, muted microphones and empty seats. how the unconventional rules for next week's biden trumped debate hosted by cnn could have unexpected consequences for both campaigns. what we know about how the candidates are planning to face- off ahead of thursday. that is next on the katie phang show. stay tuned. child diagnosed with can cer because the research is being shared all over the world. so, i didn't think i needed swiffer. until... i saw how easily it picked up my hair every time i dried it. it only takes a minute. look at that! the heavy duty cloths are extra thick for amazing trap and lock. even for his hair. wow! and for dust i love my heavy duty duster. the fluffy fibers trap dust on contact up high and all around without having to lift a thing. i'm so hooked! you'll love swiffer or your money back! >> i am totally under leveraged, because the assets are extremely good and we have a very, i built -- guess what, a lot of people died. a lot more going to die unless he gets a lot smarter, a lot quicker. >> stand back and standby. >> i'm not going to answer the question. >> why would you answer that question? 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