> in depth with john mccain. i sat down with senator mccain a while ago in the armed services committee hearing room. he was very candid. he disagrees strongly with what justice scalia said about super pacs. about michele bachmann and what he thinks about romney's record at bain. senator, thank you for finally allowing me to interview you. you finally cracked. >> finally gave in, there you go. looking forward to it. >> so have i, very much. let's start with we're three months away from the election. you've been exactly where mitt romney is right now. what is your advice? what is the real strategy at this stage of the battle plan that you think he needs to be most aware of? >> i think it's very obvious, piers, and that's jobs and the economy. most people don't care when mitt romney left bain capital and went to run the olympics and save them or exactly where his tax returns are. so i think the focus obviously is what most americans are caring about now. we do have a very stumbling economy, that's the best description, and so jobs in the economy, jobs in the economy. i feel very strongly about some national security issues which you and i will be talking about later on. and i wish more americans were involved in these national security issues. but it's understandable that jobs and the economy is the key to winning the election in november. >> given that it's going to be about the economy, i completely concur with that, clearly, a lot of attention, now, on mitt romney's business record. on his tax affairs and so on. let's go through this stage by stage. in terms of his record at bain, clearly when you took him on a few years ago, as everybody does in these campaigns, you were pretty critical of his record at bain and, deed, as governor of massachusetts. how much of a problem is it going to be if barack obama begins repying tt criticism and indeed froother senior republicans to say, come on, ev you guys didn't t he was that great? >> wel probably the same impression that people have when they show hillary clinton saying "shame on you, barack obama." i never reached that point in my debates. look, thingsre said in potical campgns whicar pretty tough. it's not bean bag. can recall when herbert walker bush called reagan voodoo economics and he ended up being his running mate. i think most people understa in the case of mitt romney and me, after the primary was over, no one worked harder for my campaign. we became good friends. and i obviously, as you know, supported and endorsed him very early, in hopes to have some impact in the new hampshire primary. >> being as dispassionate as you can be, do you think he was formally a force for job creation? or some other people say look, that's fine, he did create jobs, but he also wrecked a lot of jobs. >> you know, the problem with the free enterprise system is that not everybody succeeds. the great thing about communism and the old soviet union is nobody ever failed. so the point is that in this system that bain is involved in, they went to companies and groups that were either struggling or just beginning, and they invested. sometimes they failed. sometimes they succeeded. best example of course i'm sure you've heard many times. a warehouse and $5 million ended up as staples. it's so obvious that bain was in the business to make money. and i know how evil that is for people to make money, don't get me that wrong. i know how terrible that is. they were in the business to make money. in the process, they created thousands of jobs. unfortunately, the downside to the free enterprise system is that sometimes businesses fail. i think it's important to note and, again, this, i hope, will come out, mitt romney would probably made one heck of a lot more money if he'd have stayed at bain capital instead of going out to save the olympics. the olympics at salt lake were about to collapse. there was corruption. all kinds problems. he went out there and worked 16 hours a day and made it a very profitable enterprise. >> that is undeniably true. he turned around those olympics. that was inincredibly successful. >> and left bain capital. which then meant he didn't make a lot more money than he was already making. >> he's not exactly struggling, is he? let's be honest. >> no, he's not. >> you were in a unique position. obviously when he was vetted to potentially run with you, you got to see these, now, infamous documents detailing his financial affairs, going back many years. you said you didn't see anything that should be a concern. the obvious question is, if that is the case, why is he being so reluctant to put them out there? his own father put out 12 years of records. why doesn't he just do it? >> well, first of all, let me put this in context. when -- and this is done by everybody, when you're vetting people that you're considering to be your running mate, you ask for every kind of confidential information. one of the things you guarantee those people when they give you that information, that is will remain confidential. i feel agretful that i say our team saw nothing in his tax returns that would have been damaging. second of all, look, i released two years. john kerry didn't release his wife's tax returns. it's been a standard of behavior. and what, frankly, they worry about, okay, release five years, why not 10, why not 15, on and on like that. it's a decision the romney campaign has to make. but to somehow say that he should do something that no other candidate in recent history has done, i think is patently unfair. >> just to clarify, you never saw anything that you think would cause him embarrassment? >> of course not. >> i mean the implication is because we know -- we know about swiss bank account, cayman islands, so on, that there is more of that stuff that would over time show he saved a lot of money through tax -- it's not illegal, but through sharp tax practice. >> well, first of all, as i said, i saw nothing -- or my team saw nothing in any way that would be harmful. but the important point here is that we now have a campaign based on his tax returns or not his tax returns. the obama campaign has sunk so low that his deputy campaign manager miss cutter says he may have committed a felony. i have to tell you, i have not seen a presidential campaign where it fell this low this early, where he may have been a felon. really? on what basis of fact would anybody say anything like this? listen, this is a chicago-style desperate campaign that the obama people are running -- >> what does chicago-style mean? >> chicago style means there's very few depths you won't plummet. this may have been a felon reaches a new depth i haven't seen before. maybe it's happened before -- >> seriously, the lowest you've ever seen? >> i've not seen anyone accused of possibly being a felon. i would have never considered any opponent of mine saying they could be a felon but that's just part of the tenor of the campaign. now, i -- >> let me throw it back to you though on that point. >> sure, but let me finish with one additional point if i could. now they've run an ad making fun of mitt romney singing "america the beautiful." now, is that really -- is that really the right thing to do? i hope that every american at every event will sing "america the beautiful" where people do that. so now you ridicule somebody because they sing that off key? that's this chicago-style politics. go ahead. >> having said that, and i don't dispute what you said at all, and many people wouldn't, isn't mitt romney a victim of his own savagery? i mean, when i was running around the republican race, he was using this to absolutely brutalize his opponent. the most negative stuff i've ever seen. certainly far more negative than anything i've seen in british politics. i was stunned. i'm not sure you can do that kind of campaign and then stand back and go, come on, you're not being fair to me. >> your point is well made in this respect. probably not complain about it. let other people judge whether it is -- let me people like me and others make that judgjudgment. that is perfectly accurate. i will say in all fairness the attacks on john kerry and the swift boaters back that that campaign was something i did not approve of. >> you were the victim of tremendous smear campaigns. calling him apparently possibly a felon you think was even worse because you had some terrible -- >> someone committed a crime that would put them in jail if they were guilty. but that's just an example. look, this is going to be -- i guarantee, this is going to be the roughest, toughest campaign that i have ever observed. it's already that way. and so one of the unfortunate aspects of this is it makes voters even more cynical and it drives both candidates unfavorables up but again -- >> we'll come back to that in a moment. >> key to this campaign is jobs and the economy. that's why i believe romney will eventually win. >> let's take a break. come back and talk about syria, which has blown up again today, and also about michele bachmann who you've been ripping into to the delight of people on both sides of the political divide. stay in the moment sanya focus lolo, focus let's do this i am from baltimore south carolina... bloomington, california... austin, texas... we are all here to represent the country we love this is for everyone back home it's go time. across america, we're all committed to team usa. ♪ what started as a whisper every day, millions of people choose to do the right thing. there's an insurance company that does that, too. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? 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>> what we should have done a long time ago. was join with other nations and set up a safe zone and together provide arms and equipment to the resistance fighters who are being massacred. it's not surprising that, again, a resolution failed in the united nations. it's really a sad spectacle to see the united states of america and its policies and actions dictated by the u.n. security council where russia and china exercise a veto. we didn't do that when we went to kosovo to save muslims. it's a totally failure of american leadership. if america would lead with other countries, and i do not mean american boots on the ground, we could bring the assad regime down. now, everybody says that the assad regime will fail. i agree with that but it's been 17 months of slaughter. >> the best parallels i've seen you make, if you don't mind me jumping in there, is bosnia. because you met a guy dish was very moved by this when i read it. you met a guy who had been in bosnia. you met him in a turkish refugee camp for syrians. and he said to you, i can't believe this is happening again. because the parallels are very, very similar. and of course then bill clinton eventually a democratic president decided to do something. we now have another democratic president. similar situation. is it time president obama did something? >> yes, and one the sad aspects of this, he doesn't even speak up on these people's behalf. did you ever hear him? have we seen at all him from the oval office saying what's going on today in syria is terrible, they've set up torture centers. a manner of their interrogation is to gang rape young women, kill children in front of their parents. >> you met some of these people? >> in a refugee camp. defectors from their army who said their instruction and orders were to do this torture and rape and murder. and yet you mention bill clinton. bill clinton also went to bosnia, as you know, kosovo. he said his greatest regret, president clinton said, was not intervening in rwanda where some 800,000 people were killed. it cries out for american leadership. and when i see the secretary of defense make comments just like you just made, i've been hearing that same comments for 17 months. while the massacre goes on. and these countries in the region, some of them are helping already. but it cries out for american leadership. >> if you were president, if you'd won the last election, what would you be doing now? >> with the knowledge the russians and chinese are probably going to hamper any effort with the united nations, i would talk with the willing. saudi arabia, the gulf states, other other states. even libya is willing to help out now after their experience. and the turks. and work together a coalition where we would set up the safe zone and we would be supplying and equipping the resistance. and giving them the aid that they need. the longer this lasts, the more brutal, the more massacres, the more brutality and the more likelihood these extremist elements enter in, the more likelihood that these chemical weapons stockpiles that al assad has gets in the wrong hands or maybe even used. so it is in our intere. finally, one of our generals, general over central command, said it would be the greatest blow to iran in 25 years because of its effect on lebanon, hezbollah, et cetera. and the thing that makes me so sad, when we hear this from the secretary of state who i admire and leon panetta, it's not a fair fight. the arms are coming in from russia. there's iranians on the ground. they have established torture centers. why can't we help these people? and frankly i have to be honest with you, there are people on the right of my party, the same ones who passed a resolution through the house of representatives, that we shouldn't do anything about libya, by the way, which just had a fair election where a moderate was overwhelming majority of the votes -- so -- >> is part of the problem that -- i would say the majority of american people, from what i sense, haven't really understand what's happening in syria? because unlike, say, in egypt, beamed to the world every night. you saw these guys on horseback. attacking people. the imagery was so stark. people could relate to it in america. and then began to demand something happened. i'm not sensing that demand from the american people. they're more like, you know what, it's happening there, we've got bigger problems. >> well, first of all, i agree with that. but i would point out that it requires leadership to tell the american people what's going on. we didn't have nearly the coverage, frankly, in sebrenitsa and kosovo we had. so it requires american leadership to inform the american people. and second of all, it is a situation that the united states, the population, unless their attention is directed to it, it's jobs and the economy. they're war weary from iraq and afghanistan. i understand that. so it requires american leadership. and to tell the american people. the american people are the best people in the world. british as well. we believe, we believe that america has a special role to play in the world. we believe in american exceptionalism. unfortunately, i don't think president obama does. >> one of the problems people say is there's no real dialogue now between republicans and democrats as there used to be. i want to come back after the break and talk to you about the state of washington right now. has it ever been this bad? 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>> i say that's true but i also think there's a variety of reasons, include a polarization amongst the american people. it's always exacerbated by people who are in totally safe seats as you know. but in the economy, difficulties have exacerbated that. i have to put a lot of blame on republicans and democrats. but i would also argue that perhaps the president of the united states could have done a -- like bill clinton did after democrats suffered a defeat in the election. he called bob dole and newt gingrich over and they reformed welfare. they made some agreements. i would love to see the president -- maybe now it's too late till after the election. if he's re-elected, to call republicans and demo together. if romney is elected, call republicans and democrats together. you are seeing the rise of the independent voter in this country. ow exaly what's going to happen. but the dissatisfaction with both parties is palpable. >> you've been very vocal about fund-raising for parties and for candidates. i interviewed justice scalia last night and he was quite fascinating because he said under freedom of speech, it should include, as we saw, the power to raise as much money as you want. to express your freedom of speech. what do you think of that? >> i think it's a very unique interpretation of the real world to say that money is speech. very brief anecdote, when jack kennedy assembleled his candidate after he was elected and it was the best and bright nest america and they went to lyndon johnson and said, what do you think about this, these are really the most brilliant people in the world. he said, i just wish one of them had run for county sheriff. i just wish one of these five had run for county sheriff. when sandra day o'connor and justice rehnquist went on the supreme court, they came to a different conclusion. money does corrupt. money is a corrupting factor in politics. and there's thousands of examples of it. this supreme court in their ivory tower somehow believes that all we need to do is let everything be unleashed. and now we are seeing clearly money and campaigns the likes which we've never seen. >> it's unbelievable. it seems to be unstoppable. the figure's getting ever more outrageous. it will get to the stage where people can literally buy an election. we see a direct correlation between the money you have available, the television spend you have at your disposal. to simply blow away your opponents simply on the power of the media you can buy. >> i promise youand there will be major scandals. there's too much money washing around. if you think watergate was too much. if you think abram off was big. >> what is the fundamental principle you object to? >> the fundamental principle is does not rein in any way the activities of the labor unions. there was a story in "the washington post" they were involved in $4.4 billion of activities. they take union membes dues without their permission and put them into various campaigns. one of the -- guy that was the head of the service employees union in the 2008 campaign borrowed $208 million to spend for the obama campaign. that's not right. so there's got to be a general reining in on both sides. a prohibition on unions using member's dues without their permission would be two of the fundamental principles. >> if the unions put themselves under the same scrutiny they want political donors -- >> then i would -- >> you would sign up for that? >> absolutely. unfortunately, this act we voted on has no impact whatsoever on labor union activities. >> people say this week after they watched you yesterday railing in against michele bachmann we've got john mccain back, this is the guy we love most, because he's not just having a go at the president, he's taking on one of his own on the point of principle where everyone agrees with him, this was completely out of line what she did. what motivated you to do that? how do you feel when people say, we've got the real john mccain? >> i say i never left. but, piers, the point is that i know huma. i know her from traveling with her. i know of her reputation. i know this great story we love. the immigrant who comes to our country and does so well. and it was really unfair to do what was done to her. but it wasn't -- it was five members of congress, by the way, it wasn't just michele bachmann. and it's not so much that i'm attacking them as it is defending her and also i hope that this sends a message to other people, both right and left, that we shouldn't attack people's character unfairly. >> would you like michele bachmann to apologize? >> i don't know -- >> to abedin in particular? >> i don't know what she should do. i think she's in a very uncomfortable position right now obviously. because there was no substance to this allegation that she got from this allegation. whose head, by the way, i have known many years. frank gaffney. but what they did was wrong. >> what does this say about the state of modern politics? that that kind of thing can happen? >> listen, we just had a sheriff of amare copa county who took it upon himself to prove president obama was not born in the united states of america. need i say more? >> well, i think you need to say one thing more, which is what does it tell you about the state of politics? >> it's crazy. it stokes the fires of extremism. and passions of people. that really is very unfair. so it's up to us to try to steer things into a more rational behavior and thought. but this is still the greatest nation in the world. they're still the best people in the world. when i get depressed, i get out of this town and go back home and go to different places in america. i was in fargo, north dakota, not too long ago. what a great experience. had trouble understanding them. you know. you betcha, you betcha, you betcha. ya, ya, ya. you know. wonderful people. wonderful people. >> let's take another break. i want to talk to you about family, which is hugely important to you. and about vietnam and the lessons you learned personally from that extraordinary experience you had out there. >> sure. 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[ announcer ] we are insurance. ♪ we are farmers bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ what goes through the mind of a wife in this situation? >> it is day by day. you get through -- with the 24-hour news cycle with the way it is now, you are forced into a situation where you have to be absolutely on at every minute of the day. not only do i understand how tiring this is for them, but also how fun it can be. >> senator, you heard what your wife had to say to me. a magnificent woman if you don't mind me saying. incredibly impressive. saying this kind campaigning the romneys are going through now, it's torturessly. but it's great fun. is that your memory of it? >> yeah. after the stock market crashed, the economy was in the tank, i knew there were very long odds. but at the same time, the friendships, the experience. look, i'm a guy fifth from the bottom of his class at the naval academy. if you would have told my old company officer when i graduated that john mccain would be running for president of the united states, he would ha think that there would be some drugs in use. i am the luckiest guy you will ever interview of all the thousands of people you have interviewed. i am the most fortunate person. i've had the fullest life. those guys i was in prison with in vietnam that i know and love, every day, one of them calls me up. i've had the best life. and when i lost, you know, you can either start feeling real sorry for yourself or just be proud that you were able to do what you would do and move forward. and that's what i -- i keep telling myself. now, that isn't always the case. i wallow in self-pity from time to time. really makes you feel good. but overall, i've realized how lucky i am. and i just truly have the most remarkable life when even i look back at it. >> they say you lose 100% of the gambles and risk you never take. >> exactly. >> you've always been a maverick. it's what i've always admired about you. when you took the big roll of the dice with sarah palin. and that's what it was. it could have been a spectacular success that drove you to an improbable triumph. or it could have been, as it played out, not a success. do you actually regret -- if you're honest, do you look in the mirror and regret at least going for it? >> oh, no. listen, i think that sarah palin -- i know that she invigorated our campaign. she gal vannized our base. she gal vonnized our base. she and her husband and family are wonderful people. i'm very proud to have them as my friends. and i think that she at the end of the day was the right choice. i really believe that. >> it could have worked? >> well, it's not that it could or couldn't have. i really believe that, honestly, the day -- we were three points up the day the stock market went down 700 points. at the end of the day, we were, like, five points down i understand that. i understand why people would -- and you've got to give great credit to president obama. he ran a great campaign. hope and change. i don't know what's happened to that. he galvanized african-american voters and lower income people. he really -- you've got to give him credit also. >> in the movie "game change" which i watched. i enjoyed it. you swear a lot, your character. his wife says to me, he doesn't swear that much. >> no, i don't. i was told that's the case. i used the "f" word all the time. i don't know why they felt that to be necessary. >> when you were in vietnam and you went through five, six years of absolute hell, repeated tortures, beatings, so on, what did you learn about yourself that has now dictated the way you are as a ppolitician? >> i was proud of my ability to resist all kinds of pressures from my captors. both mental and physical. but i also recognize that i had limitations because at one point after sufficient physical extended mistreatment, i broke and signed a confession. so i realized i wasn't the toughest. i wasn't john wayne mccain as some used to call me in my earlier days. and so i think it made me aware that all of us have -- our not failings but our vulnerabilities and sometimes we don't always do what we would like to do. but the point is, pick yourself up, as i did right after that, go right back into the arena with them. >> what has been the greatest moment of your life? if i could relive, outside marriage and children, if i could have the power to let you relieve five minutes of your live, what would you choose? >> probably the day i left prison. and i left with all of my comrades when i left. and earlier, a couple years earlier, they had offered me to go home early. i was so grateful i had not accepted that offer and left my comrades behind. >> pretty extraordinary. thank you for your service, senator. thank you for your interview. >> thank you, piers. >> great to meet you at last. don't keep me waiting so long next time. >> absolutely. >> you heard what john mccain said about syria. next, i'll ask a top commander general george casey if u.s. forces should step in. we earn with our citi thankyou card for a relaxing vacation. ♪ sometimes, we go for a ride in the park. maybe do a little sightseeing. or, get some fresh air. but this summer, we used our thank youpoints to just hang out with a few friends in london. 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[ female announcer ] only flood insurance covers floods. visit floodsmart.gov/risk to learn your risk. it is a rapidly deteriorating conflict. that is courting hundreds of lives each day. and that threatens to engulf the region in a wider war. that is the consequence of the third veto by our colleague on the council today. >> taking aim at russia and china. u.s. ambassador susan rice at the u.n. deadly batles now waged in the capital. with us, general george casey. i spoke to senator mccain earlier. he said it's time for obama to act. he drew the parallel of bosnia. said it's time for the coalition to equip the resistance, to do something. >> i don't disagree with him at all. three strikes and you're out. that's the third time they've gone to the united nations. i think we've done everything we can to get russia and china to support this. it seems clear to me they're not going to. i also agree very much that if we act, we need to act with a coalition. given the background of everything else we have going on in the middle east. we shouldn't act unilaterally. >> china and russia clearly huge powers in the world, have dug their heels in. they, if you talk to them, say we don't trust this opposition. we think many of them may be terrorists. some of them may have links to al qaeda and so on. can we trust the opposition rebels? i mean, do they have a point? >> i don't think we know enough about the opposition yet. and it's not likely to be for sure. libya's got a population of 6 billion people. syria's 20 million people. that the population in libya's fairly home genius. in syria, you have sectarian differences. you have is the minority alawhite regime that's been suppressing a population that's 75% sunni for deck kamds. >> assad still has control of the military which is obviously a vital weapon for him. you're a military man. at what stage do we reach a tipping point? when will the military possibly turn on assad? >> yeah, that's an interesting point. i was recently in egypt, tunisia, and both -- in both of those countries it was the military siding with the people that allowed the revolution to proceed. assad seems to have much better hold over his military than the leaderships of the other countries had. so i don't know what would cause that to tip i suspect though that the military would have to perceive that assad wasn't going to run. >> we saw an incident in bulgaria, a bus bombing. five israeli terrorists killed. israel rushing to blame iran as they have many times in recent months for various incidents. this is a dangerous time, isn't it? what do you make of that? how realistic is it that iran may be putting on these kind of incidents, these terrorist attacks, and what should be done about it? >> i saw that attack as an indicator of what i see as the era that we're in. i've been calling it for years an era of persistent conflict. >> do you think syria has chemical weapons? people are saying they've definitely got chemical weapons. we heard this about saddam and when we finally went to war f he didn't have. america can't risk going into battle again on that pretext if it's not true. >> yeah, no. i think we have much better information about syria's chemical weapon stocks to include their locations. and i think the chemical threat coming out of there is in fact real. the other significant threat that makes it different than libya is the al qaeda threat and you mentioned that. i watched iraq for years, that brought suicide bombers through syria into iraq. they're there now. it's not a question. they're there, they've got an established network. >> when you are seeing tunisia and egypt, people looked to the arab spring with great hope then came the cynicism it's not going to work out. what's the realty? did you feel optimism there? >> i came away heartened. especially when you compare with what's going on in egypt and tunisia to other areas like syria. they had difficult days ahead of them they're trying to come to grips with two views of the directions of both of those countries. but the good news is, if i could, is they're working it through the political and judicial process. >> so there's a democratic system that is working. >> i wouldn't say that. they're building a democratic system that will work over time. >> let's turn to one final thing. since you were retired you've been involved in helping veterans. suicide on average one a day american service men and women killing themselves. the highest rate in the whole decade. why is this happening and what can be done about it? >> this is an issue that we in the military have been working very hard for years. we've studied it. we've started a $50 million study with the national institute of mental health, we've increased the number of mental health advicers. we've had an significant program since 2007 to reduce the stigma of getting mental health treatment when you have a problem. but when you come right down to it, you can't know what's going on inside someone else's head. and as we've looked at, we've analyzed the data on people who have committed suicide and the problems seem to go back to relationship problems, financial problems, and they're usually exacerbated by drug and alcohol abuse. it's a huge, huge challenge. and it's not just a challenge for -- >> and a long time pressure of active service. >> i can't imagine that the increased pressures of repeated deploiments to combat hasn't had an impact. i saw something the other day that said that suicide rate per thousand in the united states is 24 for iraq afghanistan veterans, it's like 38. so there has to be an impact. but if i could, the other significant challenge the veterans have is unemployment. i've seen statistics basically if you are an iraq afghanistan veteran, your unemployment rate is about 3% higher than the national average. and if you're 18-24-year-olds, that pushes up about 24%. we can do better than that for our veterans. >> we can. i totally agree. >> nice to see you. next, the back lash over the yahoo's chief decision to have a baby: hey america, even though slisa rinna is wearing the new depend silhouette briefs for charity to prove how great the fit is even under a fantastic dress. the best protection now looks, fits and feels just like underwear. we invite you to get a free sample and try one on too. [ slap! slap! ] [ male announcer ] your favorite foods fighting you? fight back fast with tums. calcium rich tums goes to work in seconds. nothing works faster. ♪ tum tum tum tum tums for tonight's only in america, having a baby and heading a company. on monday night the new boss of tech giant yahoo joining the ranks of only 20 ceos. the 37-year-old former google executive revealed she was preg. she's expecting her first child, a boy, in october. not everybody shared this joy. the shock rose and then dropped when the media focused on her impending baby story. listen to what one of those critics, cnbc brian sullivan said about it. >> she's only 37, she is pregnant and she says she's going to work during maternity leave. yahoo has been in trouble for years. my advice take some time off, raise the kid for a little bit d work on the company when you can. >> what a load of sexist, pa tronizing clap trap. she responded by saying i like to stay in the rhythm of things. my ma turnout will be a few weeks long and i'll work throughout it. the same man criticizing are the types who spent 18 hours chained to their cooperate office desks, never seeing their families or the real world. where did that get america in the last decade? into the worst financial crisis
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